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View Full Version : Gun Yaw Problem ... Answer from Oleg!



bird_brain
06-26-2006, 08:19 AM
He just sent an e-mail back in response to my bug report.

"It is changed in 4.06m (SoM)"

That's all it says, but that's enough for me. Thank you Oleg & staff! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And thank you too Crazyivan if you had anything to do with it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-26-2006, 08:30 AM
I'm not surprised.

Thanks for the heads up. That should silence a few threads...and start a few more in an attempt to speculate the impact etc,...


TB

hotspace
06-26-2006, 08:35 AM
Damn, I only got use to it yesterday http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

joeap
06-26-2006, 09:03 AM
*Dances a Russian jig*

lowfighter
06-26-2006, 10:33 AM
Good news!

Daiichidoku
06-26-2006, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by bird_brain:
."It is changed in 4.06m (SoM)"


I wonder what this will cost, in terms of whatever changes needed to be made to cancel the yaw may show up elsewhere.........

bird_brain
06-26-2006, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
I wonder what this will cost, in terms of whatever changes needed to be made to cancel the yaw may show up elsewhere.........
Without posting the whole bug report, the yaw problem is the result of desynchronizing the .50 cal machine guns. This was done by creating about 6 different types of .50 cal Brownings that all fire at a slightly different r.o.f. In the US Navy fighters, all the faster firing guns were put in one wing, causing heavier recoil in that wing and yawing the AC.

All they are doing is moving the coding on a couple of guns to improve the "balance" of the recoil. You will still get a slight oscillation from side to side like in the Mustang or P-40, but at least it will be even.

I am fairly certain it will not have any other effects. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Sillius_Sodus
06-26-2006, 12:25 PM
Good, now we can concentrate all our efforts on whining about the Tempest! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus

Gibbage1
06-26-2006, 01:42 PM
Isent 4.06 a pay add-on?

I have no problem with paying for new aircraft and stuff, but it sort of irks me to have to pay for a friggen fix!

bird_brain
06-26-2006, 02:07 PM
Yes, it will be the Manchuria add-on.

You are actually paying for the new planes & maps & the fix will be included for free. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FoolTrottel
06-26-2006, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Isent 4.06 a pay add-on?

I have no problem with paying for new aircraft and stuff, but it sort of irks me to have to pay for a friggen fix!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif If I remember correctly, the bug was introduced with a free patch... you can allways roll back to the previously published free patch, the one w/o the bug ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

shinden1974
06-26-2006, 03:09 PM
alright!! Now I'm really itching for the add-on!

R_Target
06-26-2006, 03:51 PM
Encouraging news.

rnzoli
06-27-2006, 07:06 AM
wow

Mr_Blastman
06-27-2006, 07:11 AM
Is this a joke? Seriously... We have to PAY for something that they purposely broke?

Sounds like... EXTORTION to me (those non-americans please see www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) for a definition)

This is absolutely absurd - we have to put up with this awful bug that they introduced (or downgrade to an older version which makes us unable to play online) - or give them more cash to fix something they broke.

What a joke... seriously. First the wobbles (which are ludicrous if you look at guncam footage - my p47 wobbles all over the place - but footage readily available on the net shows no such thing) and the no wobble uber stable IL2 (which it was NOT according to guncam footage), and then broken American 50 cals. It is a wonder America ever won the Pacific air war being unable to hit anything with wobbles and now stupid gun issues which we have to pay for to fix.

joeap
06-27-2006, 07:14 AM
Umm the 50s are not broken. What footage of the IL2 are you babbling about anyway?

Mr_Blastman
06-27-2006, 07:51 AM
For your viewing pleasure:

http://rapidshare.de/files/24125900/Sturmo.rar.html

And yes, the 50's are broken - you get INSANE airframe vibration when you fire them on the US Pacific warplanes.

F4U 1945 quad 20 mm configuration produces way less vibration and reticle displacement than a 6 or 8 50 cal similar variant.

Have you ever seen a 20 mm round? a 50 cal round?

20mm shells are huge in comparison.

Ratsack
06-27-2006, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Mr_Blastman:


Sounds like... EXTORTION to me (those non-americans please see www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) for a definition)
.

Sounds like hysteria to me, American or any way you like it.

cheers,
Ratsack

msalama
06-27-2006, 08:12 AM
Nothing wrong with the Corsair Mk.IV at any rate.

Just tried a quickie with it - and yes, there's some slight shaking, but nothing that affects my shooting (such as it is) too badly. Got the Ju-88 down pretty easily, actually...

Furballs might be different, I grant you that. But no mature pilots will allow themselves to be drawn into one of those anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

luftluuver
06-27-2006, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by bird_brain:
Without posting the whole bug report, the yaw problem is the result of desynchronizing the .50 cal machine guns. This was done by creating about 6 different types of .50 cal Brownings that all fire at a slightly different r.o.f. In the US Navy fighters, all the faster firing guns were put in one wing, causing heavier recoil in that wing and yawing the AC.

All they are doing is moving the coding on a couple of guns to improve the "balance" of the recoil. You will still get a slight oscillation from side to side like in the Mustang or P-40, but at least it will be even.

I am fairly certain it will not have any other effects. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif No 2 a/c performed the same, yet they do in this game, so why was different rof for the Ma Duece modelled in the first place?

Why was there a change in PF from previous Il-2, etc?

Ratsack
06-27-2006, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bird_brain:
Without posting the whole bug report, the yaw problem is the result of desynchronizing the .50 cal machine guns. This was done by creating about 6 different types of .50 cal Brownings that all fire at a slightly different r.o.f. In the US Navy fighters, all the faster firing guns were put in one wing, causing heavier recoil in that wing and yawing the AC.

All they are doing is moving the coding on a couple of guns to improve the "balance" of the recoil. You will still get a slight oscillation from side to side like in the Mustang or P-40, but at least it will be even.

I am fairly certain it will not have any other effects. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif No 2 a/c performed the same, yet they do in this game, so why was different rof for the Ma Duece modelled in the first place?

Why was there a change in PF from previous Il-2, etc? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because of the forum campaign about the 'synched' 0.50s making gunnery difficult and reducing the damage done. The constant comparison was between the 0.50s on the P-40 field mod and the six 0.50s on any other US type.

Well, Oleg 'unsynched' them on all the US types, and result is the uneven recoil we see now.

Cool, ain't it?

cheers,
Ratsack

JG52Karaya-X
06-27-2006, 08:28 AM
What about the P38J - will it get its .50s unsynched as well?

Brain32
06-27-2006, 09:15 AM
Is this a joke? Seriously... We have to PAY for something that they purposely broke?

Sounds like... EXTORTION to me
Sounds like a guy from only country in the world in which aircraft companies asked for money in order for their planes to be presented in a game, is talking about EXTORTION.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

JG52Karaya-X
06-27-2006, 09:29 AM
Yea, and its not like its a major bug. You can STILL fly the USN fighters and you can STILL shoot stuff up/down.

A group of guys blow it out of proportion and everybody's on the Nostradamus trip...

Bearcat99
06-27-2006, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Mr_Blastman:
Is this a joke? Seriously... We have to PAY for something that they purposely broke?
Sounds like... EXTORTION to me (those non-americans please see www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) for a definition)
This is absolutely absurd - we have to put up with this awful bug that they introduced (or downgrade to an older version which makes us unable to play online) - or give them more cash to fix something they broke.

What a joke... seriously. First the wobbles (which are ludicrous if you look at guncam footage - my p47 wobbles all over the place - but footage readily available on the net shows no such thing) and the no wobble uber stable IL2 (which it was NOT according to guncam footage), and then broken American 50 cals. It is a wonder America ever won the Pacific air war being unable to hit anything with wobbles and now stupid gun issues which we have to pay for to fix.

GEEEEZE!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

You are paying for the add on... NOT the patch ... I guess some of you would rather that 1C release the fix in a seperate patch for free and then release the add on so you can cry like little schoolgirls about having to buy the d@mn thing in the first place.... Some of you have been in this sim for years and you know how it works... I just dont get it.....

I know I may sound harsh.... but man... all this NON STOP whining and crying and the same cr@p over and Over and frickkin OVER again and again and AGAIN is feggin mind numbing.

I am glad that the problem will be fixed.. I dont care how it gets fixed and I would be buying the add on regardless... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

bird_brain
06-27-2006, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
GEEEEZE!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
You are paying for the add on... NOT the patch ... I guess some of you would rather that 1C release the fix in a seperate patch for free and then release the add on so you can cry like little schoolgirls about having to buy the d@mn thing in the first place....
LOL... I couldn't have said it better Bearcat! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

I was just mentioning that Oleg said it would be addressed (good news http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif) and I am highly amused to see the Chicken Littles of the IL2 world pop in for a comment or 2. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oleg was thoughtful enough to unsynch the .50 cals (as I said before, NOT at my request...) and now he will not undo what he "fixed" but he is taking the time to sort out a small coding error. I fail to see the down side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Mr_Blastman
06-27-2006, 10:40 AM
I don't see how 1. I am a chicken little and 2. I am one of the whining masses

I've been quiet for a long time - and put up with it - and I take a couple minutes out of my day to point out that someone is charging us more money to fix something they broke that should have been fixed to begin with - and people fail to grasp that!

I guess everyone is used to going to the car dealership, buying a car, then getting a letter in the mail stating that there is a recall due to a problem, which will be fixed for free. So you take your car in, they do the fix, and you drive off.

About a month later you discover that this free recall fix has messed something else up seriously on your car, and you go back to the dealership and say - hey! that free fix you made on my car messed something else up, can you fix it?...

... and the dealerships reply is - YEP! we can fix it... for 500 bucks! And while we're at it, we'll throw in an upgraded radio.

Do you see my point yet?

The dealer should make you whole for their mistake, without charging you extra for it.

I, and many others would be happy if he released the PE-2 addon with the fix, along with a separate free to download patch that also fixes the problem.

The complaining would stop.

But I guess with my low post count here I'm one of those constant whiners that has nothing good to say and no content in my post.

Hardly... Just read what I said above a couple of times and hopefully it will sink in - without giving me the third degree for an honest response to what I feel is wrong.

Bearcat99
06-27-2006, 10:45 AM
Exactly BB..... This sim has improved so much from when I first bought IL2 in 2002..... it is far and above anything we could have imagined..... even with it's flaws.... and it kills me that so many people find so much to complain about considering all that there is to be pleased with.....

Like I always say..... I remember having to use Pe-2s in place of B-17s.... and having my Redtail Las... that were hooked up for me by Painter when I first got here.... No Ponies... Mno Hawks.. no carriers.. no Doras... no La7s.... no Cats of any kind... no Spits... or any other British, Japanese or Italian AC for that matter..... and I could go on and on.....
and dont get me started on the carrier landings..... desert...... beaches..... Islands.. shoot man.... this sim is a great product and well worth the full price I paid for it.... At the cost of the complete package and any add ons..... (meaning the current crop that actually changes the sim..... ) it is a huge bargain.

Since the 4.06 has been completed for a while now and they are probably just adding to it... if they released a patch with the fix I guess that would be 4.5.01... then 4.06..... then.... Way too confusing..... just put the fix in the add on.... and for those who are too cheap or paranoid to get the durn thing ......OH WELL!!!

And for those rare few who actually cant get the add ons due to technical or logistical reasons... my heart goes out to you..

and Blastman... people who compare the cost of a piece of software to a car and the like are not making a fair comparison.. let me ask you this.... How many peices of software have you bought over the last 10 years that came no where near meeting your expectations.. that you have since either gave away or thrown away? Like I said.. I know it may sound harsh... no offense intended, but multiply your post by the umteen others all saying the same stuff just since 4.05 was released... day after day... in waves that rise and fall.... (Dont get me started on the other stuff..) and it just gets old. If you dont want it then dont buy it. You act like 1C said.... "Hey lets screw up the software and then charge them for the fix....."... I mean.... come on man..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I am glad that after all this time... and all the BS and character assaults that the man has recieved over the years...(Thats what it is when you insinuate that the man is not professional enough to try to deliver the best product that he can... you know the old bias accusations... and the like) that the man even takes the time to interface with us at all... even if it is indirectly for the most part.... I never heard from anyone at MS.... or any other software company that I had dealings with and wasnt all together pleased with the product.

edgflyer
06-27-2006, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Mr_Blastman:
I don't see how 1. I am a chicken little and 2. I am one of the whining masses

I've been quiet for a long time - and put up with it - and I take a couple minutes out of my day to point out that someone is charging us more money to fix something they broke that should have been fixed to begin with - and people fail to grasp that!

I guess everyone is used to going to the car dealership, buying a car, then getting a letter in the mail stating that there is a recall due to a problem, which will be fixed for free. So you take your car in, they do the fix, and you drive off.

About a month later you discover that this free recall fix has messed something else up seriously on your car, and you go back to the dealership and say - hey! that free fix you made on my car messed something else up, can you fix it?...

... and the dealerships reply is - YEP! we can fix it... for 500 bucks! And while we're at it, we'll throw in an upgraded radio.

Do you see my point yet?

The dealer should make you whole for their mistake, without charging you extra for it.

I, and many others would be happy if he released the PE-2 addon with the fix, along with a separate free to download patch that also fixes the problem.

The complaining would stop.

But I guess with my low post count here I'm one of those constant whiners that has nothing good to say and no content in my post.

Hardly... Just read what I said above a couple of times and hopefully it will sink in - without giving me the third degree for an honest response to what I feel is wrong.

Probally a better way of stating this is ask if we do not buy the next release, will there be a patch to fix it. Find this out first before going off.

Xiolablu3
06-27-2006, 11:19 AM
Geeeez, so much support and so many free patches and content. Such a great helpful community, so many free missions and user created mods...

But they just complain and want more...


(I think this is probably one of the older disgruntled users under a new alias. I have seen a lot of 'new' names recently who are obviously not new at all)

msalama
06-27-2006, 11:33 AM
But they just complain and want more...

This, sadly, will never stop.

Mr_Blastman
06-27-2006, 11:47 AM
It'd be great if I were using an alias - but I use this and have used this name on forums (and games - especially Mechwarrior) for over 9 years now.

I'm just a user that wants to fly my planes around and have a good time every once in a while. When there is a bug that effects the flying part, it is hard to avoid it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Maybe I started out harsh - but I've seen so much of this buy, fix, pay to fix problems the fix caused that I just went off.

HayateAce
06-27-2006, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Yea, and its not like its a major bug. You can STILL fly the USN fighters and you can STILL shoot stuff up/down.

A group of guys blow it out of proportion and everybody's on the Nostradamus trip...

Maybe the most ******ed post ever on the IL2 forums.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

JG52Karaya-X
06-27-2006, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Maybe the most ******ed post(s) ever on the IL2 forums.

OH, I KNOW THAT ONE!!!

"What are Hayatefarce's last 906 posts?"

Aviar
06-27-2006, 01:52 PM
Stated by Ratsack:
-----------------
"Because of the forum campaign about the 'synched' 0.50s making gunnery difficult and reducing the damage done. The constant comparison was between the 0.50s on the P-40 field mod and the six 0.50s on any other US type.

Well, Oleg 'unsynched' them on all the US types, and result is the uneven recoil we see now."
-----------------

The last sentence is misleading, at best. First of all, not all the US planes with 0.50's were un-synched. Secondly, many of the US planes that were un-synched are fine....P-51 and P-47, to name a couple.

The problem is with certain planes (F4U, F4F, F6F, Corsair) that were apparently coded incorrectly.

Please try and get your facts straight before posting comments that can only lead to further misunderstandings.

Aviar

Aviar
06-27-2006, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
What about the P38J - will it get its .50s unsynched as well?

Yes, Oleg has admitted that some planes were mistakenly left out of the 'un-synching' process. The P-38J is one of these planes. (The 'L' versions are un-synched.)

This is unfortunate, as personally, I have found that I can hit my targets better with un-synched guns. With un-synched guns, you get a steady stream of bullets as compared to synched, where the bullets are coming out in 'clumps', with spaces in between the 'clumps'. (Apparently, the guns were originally synched to help with online performance.)

However, I have found a strange little 'bug' with the P-38J that is actually positive, for once...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you run the P-38J 'clean' (no ordnance) the .50 cals are synched. If you load any type of ordnance (bombs, drop tanks, rockets), the .50 cals become un-synched.

If you expend the ordnance, the .50 cals will remain un-synched. If you prefer the un-synched version, I would recommend always loading at least drop tanks. You can release these right away if you wish (without any performance hit to your top speed) and still retain the un-synched guns.

Aviar

WWMaxGunz
06-27-2006, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Mr_Blastman:
I take a couple minutes out of my day to point out that someone is charging us more money to fix something they broke that should have been fixed to begin with - and people fail to grasp that!

Wrong already. They didn't 'broke' it in the first place. First there was the dispersion
due to gun vibration modelling that resulted in 20 to 30 mils wide scatter just firing the
shortest times possible at 1/4 speed -- the way the model worked we had vibrations making
scatter with the first bullet out of each gun. Historic documents showed that firing at
towed sleeves in flight should get more like 8 mils dispersion were finally sent in. It
was one of the hotter topics here for months on end, we still have people who won't accept
the data and also seem to have a passion that 50 cals are really just 12mm/7mm effective
in reality and were never much good, go figure. I put it down to one extreme hates US and
the other extreme thinks US was best x2 with 99% of players solidly in between. That is
not counting the gotta-win onwhine players, perhaps 80%-90%.

There was also a design decision to have the many guns fire the way they did and that's how
it was made even with the scatter, IIRC. People got upset as usual (this is a given, you are
a moderate example) and once the issue was thrashed to bits a reasonable call to have the
fire not go out in over 100 meter gap waves that reduced the chance of hits at all on high
deflection shots was acted upon by the dev team patch group of sometimes two workers part
time and not Oleg doing it himself.

BTW the firing in waves made most hits into immediate multiple hits = about 1 to 2+ 20mm hits
spread out with 2x-8x the chance of getting a critical hit. That was the first whine about
.50's, they were 'too effective' when they did hit as far as players who got hit and saw no
problem whatsoever with the times when there was no hits at all.

The way to have the guns not fire in waves was to change the ROF's of individual guns. Why?
Just a guess here but I'd lay money on it. In the model there is no start fire delay, all
the guns of a group start at once but probably due to the need of firing through prop and
firing from wings ROF's being different there is a seperate ROF value stored for each gun
in the model itself. So the easy way to de-synch the fire is to fiddle with the stored
ROF's. It's a coding thing, you see? You don't write and debug new code when you can
change the data to same effect.

However the changes were made, and again I'd lay money that Oleg neither made the changes
nor oversaw or checked the actual work, the planes so changed were not carefully done so
(unless someone with a hate for things US carefully screwed them knowing that when it came
to notice that person would be making his boss very unhappy so the chances are what?) that
the differences of recoil one side to the next were not zero. Worst case or nearly so did
happen most likely without thinking and not enough time to test (thank you patch and change
whiners fro the extra pressure to get your cookies and ours served half baked) and correct
which has left it to us members to raise the hue and cry all over.

A word about the development process including patches. This is very large computer code,
not touching up house paint. It takes more time than even experienced pros involved can
believe to do even seeming simple things. I know, I have experience here. It is as worse
than trying to guess what something in the future should cost when your idea of the worth
of money is based on the past. An Oil Prince or Politician coughs and everything costs more.
Changes take REAL TIME. What you see in a patch includes things from before even the release
of the last patch when the patches come out on a regular basis. It takes weeks between the
cutoff of adding changes to final debug and approval and then distro. During those weeks
there is still pressure tactics being pushed on the forums and people crying that their one
(yeah right) gotta have that they've lobbied for didn't make the latest patch even though
they were lobbying since before the previous patch. Well, WELCOME TO THE PIPELINE, WHINERS!

And now... when it finally looks like we're going to get everything smoothed out right and
along comes someone whining, yes whining on an exaggerated and false basis about having to
purchase a cheap addon (with NO MENTION of the much extra content in the addon whatsoever,
oh f-ing no the WHINE makes out that we have to pay for this one fix) to get things right.
As below:


I guess everyone is used to going to the car dealership, buying a car, then getting a letter in the mail stating that there is a recall due to a problem, which will be fixed for free. So you take your car in, they do the fix, and you drive off.

About a month later you discover that this free recall fix has messed something else up seriously on your car, and you go back to the dealership and say - hey! that free fix you made on my car messed something else up, can you fix it?...

... and the dealerships reply is - YEP! we can fix it... for 500 bucks! And while we're at it, we'll throw in an upgraded radio.

Do you see my point yet?

Including how screwed up and around it is? Yeah.


The dealer should make you whole for their mistake, without charging you extra for it.

I, and many others would be happy if he released the PE-2 addon with the fix, along with a separate free to download patch that also fixes the problem.

The complaining would stop.

Right. And GM should upgrade their old cars into Mercedes, Porsches and Volvos because that
is what cars should be. It should all be done free as well.

What is this BS about "The complaining would stop.". Are you on crack? You could hand out
exact copies of the real planes and STILL there would be whining.

WWMaxGunz
06-27-2006, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This sim has improved so much from when I first bought IL2 in 2002.....

Got mine in Dec 2001. Would have been sooner but US release was last and held up extra weeks.
When FB came out and US got it first what were the Euros saying? US always gets first!

Really what we have is not improved IL2 but improved FB. The change to FB is big from IL2
and allowed the team to fix many mistakes they learned from right in the approach. But it
could not anticipate how far things would be stretched like PF and carriers which really
needed new base code but... that is -=SOW=- which was already in the works!

We have seen a number of pay-for releases. Everyone who works full time for free and thinks
all work should be free please complain about paying for releases that takes work!

Considering the products and the high quality compared to anything else in the industry,
we have been given budget prices from the start.

BTW BC, how long did you play the IL2 demo? I started in Sept 2001 and I know that others
had beat me to it. A friend got me to get it and hook up with him online.

Mr_Blastman
06-27-2006, 03:00 PM
And now... when it finally looks like we're going to get everything smoothed out right and
along comes someone whining, yes whining on an exaggerated and false basis about having to
purchase a cheap addon (with NO MENTION of the much extra content in the addon whatsoever,
oh f-ing no the WHINE makes out that we have to pay for this one fix) to get things right.
As below:


Right. And GM should upgrade their old cars into Mercedes, Porsches and Volvos because that
is what cars should be. It should all be done free as well.
...
What is this BS about "The complaining would stop.". Are you on crack? You could hand out
exact copies of the real planes and STILL there would be whining.

Whining... exxagerated false basis... upgrade to mercedes?? wwwhat?!

I didn't say nor allude to any of the following... I just want what I have, fixed!

I don't play online much, if not ever (maybe twice in the past year) - I just fly around in single player and have a good ole time by myself.

I don't see what the problem is with them releasing a patch for free to fix what they broke. It seems like that is a hard concept for anyone on this forum to understand. I don't really care about the new content in the PE-2 addon, I just want to be able to fly around and blast stuff outta the sky in what I've got - and I use US planes almost 100% of the time.

Hey, I'm an American, I like my countries stuff. I love that two Russian companies (with the exception of Lead Pursuit) are busting their butts to keep the simulation world alive! (which I've been a part of since the early 1980's when the first simulators came out). I should be able to fly my US planes if I want to and not have to deal with stuff they broke on them (and I recognize they were trying to fix something else - they just caused another problem).

Is there something wrong with being accountable for someones own actions? It seems to me anyone who asks for that is victimized and thrown to the stake with a fire lit around them faster than they can say - what the heck just happened?

bird_brain
06-27-2006, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Mr_Blastman:
I don't see how 1. I am a chicken little and ...

Just read what I said above a couple of times and hopefully it will sink in - without giving me the third degree for an honest response to what I feel is wrong.
Since I said it, I'll explain. I'm not giving you the 3rd degree, nor was that comment directed solely at you.

Facts....

1) Oleg/1C Games is about to release the last pay add-on that we are currently aware of for the long running IL2/FB/ACE/PF/PE2 series.

2) There was and still is a problem with a couple of planes yawing to one side when the guns were fired.

3) After getting more than 1 concisely prepared bug report (Aviar had already sent 1) that clearly stated the problem, Oleg has agreed to recode them in an effort to help us out and get the fix distributed ASAP with this previously mentioned last add-on. The chances are good that this fix delayed the patch by at least an hour or 2. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

4) If we don't get this fix with the Pay add-on that is already just about to be released, at best it will be in the next free patch, which may not even happen, and at worst there will be no more free patches and no more fixes for anything. Then it would not be fixed at all and we will be stuck with kicking right rudder at the same time we pull the trigger on certain aircraft. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

There are no gaurantees that there will be any more free patches, although I would personally be surprised if there were not.

The reason that I think complaining about including a fix with a pay add-on is overreacting and "chicken littlish" (ie...the sky is falling for those not familiar with the term) is that the alternative is to get nothing. If there is another free patch, it will either have to be applied on top of the pay add-ons, or it will have to include the yaw fix. Either way it will be another 3-6 months before you can even consider it possible.

What do you prefer... buy the add-on with the included fix as an afterthought, or don't buy it and wait for the free patch that may not get here. Maybe you think these guys sitting around in an office in Moscow working on coding computer genetrated airplanes for our amusement have nothing better to do and don't need to buy dinner for their families tonight? Where do you think their paycheck comes from?

You still have the choice not to buy the next add-on.... and then you won't get the yaw fix. That's OK, because if it was not included you would be in the same situation anyway.

BTW, I could read your comments 10 times and it wouldn't change my mind about this. We are all entitled to our opinion.

VF-51-Dart
06-27-2006, 03:35 PM
Here's a thought for those of you that just can't handle having to pay for an ADD-ON....DON'T!! If you don't like having it the way it is here with regards to how Oleg and 1C CONTINUALLY support a sim engine that is over FIVE frickin years old (name me another sim maker that has ever done so much for their customers!) that's just too bad! Go fly Warbirds where you pay up to $25/month and have 1/4 the support for it!

Bunch of damn babies! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

willyvic
06-27-2006, 03:35 PM
Mr_Blastman you will find two distinct camps here. On one side is the "tough s**t, you don't like it leave, you don't have to fly it" crowd. On the other is the "gimme, gimme, gimme, everything sucks" crowd. The latter tend to be a bit more noisier on the boards, the former a bit more holier than thou.

I understand your frustration and accept your argument on its face value. I recognize your base point in that there is something that irks many about having to purchase new content to address existing game issues. But the truth of the matter is that it has been established by the producers of the game that further "patching" would be included in future addons.

My sympathies for your treatment at the hands of a few.

WillyVic

bird_brain
06-27-2006, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:
I recognize your base point in that there is something that irks many about having to purchase new content to address existing game issues.

What really irked me was to pay for the PE-2 add-on and NOT have the issue resolved. I don't want to fly the PE-2. You know what though... it irked me enough to try and do something about it, and now that irks alot of other people... Oh well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif I don't think anyone is being mistreated here, just disagreed with.

You forgot the other camp. Those that don't want to pay for add-ons, but do anyway because they realize it is the only way to keep getting more neat stuff to play with.

Bearcat99
06-27-2006, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This sim has improved so much from when I first bought IL2 in 2002.....

Got mine in Dec 2001. Would have been sooner but US release was last and held up extra weeks.
When FB came out and US got it first what were the Euros saying? US always gets first!

Really what we have is not improved IL2 but improved FB. The change to FB is big from IL2
and allowed the team to fix many mistakes they learned from right in the approach. But it
could not anticipate how far things would be stretched like PF and carriers which really
needed new base code but... that is -=SOW=- which was already in the works!

We have seen a number of pay-for releases. Everyone who works full time for free and thinks
all work should be free please complain about paying for releases that takes work!

Considering the products and the high quality compared to anything else in the industry,
we have been given budget prices from the start.

BTW BC, how long did you play the IL2 demo? I started in Sept 2001 and I know that others
had beat me to it. A friend got me to get it and hook up with him online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I know.... it is different... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif but I like to consider them all related y'know what I mean? I know FB is a different engine.. I dont think the IL2 engine could have handled whjat thye wanted to do as it was.. thats why the maximized it...

I never got the DEMO... I didnt even know there was a demo... I had seen IL2 but couldnt run it... when I had a PC that could run it and I remembered it after a recomendation from a guy I met in the games aisle of Best Buy.. while waiting for the much anticipated and anticlimatic release of another ahem... "sim" which will remain unmentioned... (Ironically I wound up working there 2 years later..) and upon this guys recomendation I bought the sim.... (I was a little leary becuase I had some other sims that I didnt like as much as CFS1 or 2..... which was the yardstick for me). He was the guy who told me about here and Hyperlobby... and the rest is history.... after I got past the initial OOOoOoOOOO AAaHhHHh... WwOoOOOOOoWWWwWW.... then I really got sucked in... back then FB was a rumor.


Originally posted by bird_brain:
Since I said it, I'll explain. I'm not giving you the 3rd degree, nor was that comment directed solely at you.
Facts....
1) Oleg/1C Games is about to release the last pay add-on that we are currently aware of for the long running IL2/FB/ACE/PF/PE2 series.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

What about 46? isnt that an add on to this.... or is that seperate.. I thought the "unnamed new sim" was after 46.... and I knew it wouldnt be an add on.. although I wish it were.. but it's cool if it isnt....

arjisme
06-27-2006, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Mr_Blastman:
I don't play online much, if not ever (maybe twice in the past year) - I just fly around in single player and have a good ole time by myself.
Can you go over the part again about why it is unacceptable to revert to the earlier version of software that did not have the gun yaw problem? You do understand that, even if a separate patch was provided that fixed the problem in the latest code base, that you would still have the same basic online playing problems if you didn't buy the add-on, right? So it seems the whole online compatability argument is a red herring.

CornbreadPattie
06-27-2006, 11:27 PM
HARRAY!

Thanks Oleg! Thanks for that news.

We all love you Oleg and I want you to know that I have much personal gratitude towards you.

WWMaxGunz
06-28-2006, 02:09 AM
Hey BC the IL2 demo had 4 flyables and MP and as-was beat every WWII sim out right then.
It also used less PC than IL2 release since I lost a small bit of FR with the full version.

At the time I was running a 1G Athlon, 256M RAM, Voodoo5-5500, ASUS mobo with RAID-0 twin
20G WD drives for effective ATA-133 cause HD interface makes a big difference when virtual
memory is significant. In 2002 I upgraded to 512MB RAM and GF-2 card.

I swear that Maddox Games has given too much, too fast in the way of planes. The move to
fewer planes with more detail was seen and announced when?

WWMaxGunz
06-28-2006, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by Mr_Blastman:

Whining... exxagerated false basis... upgrade to mercedes?? wwwhat?!

I didn't say nor allude to any of the following... I just want what I have, fixed!

Most all of us want it fixed. The pernt is that it was never broken, it was just not right
yet. Get that part? Scatter with fire in waves went to fire in waves went to as now over
many months and new planes added, this process started back with AEP.

You come in yelling about they broke it, they should fix it free and all this about car
dealers and $500 to fix what they broke in a recall so I saw your BS and raised stakes
to why not demand a better car for free as well since hey, it's just as wrong as your
example but applies more correctly to the situation. The guns fix is an IMPROVEMENT ON
THE ORIGINAL PROGRAM NOT FIXING WHAT WAS BROKE.
You not only got the situation wrong but you went off on your righteous kick snit about
it which is just another form of whining.



I don't see what the problem is with them releasing a patch for free to fix what they broke.

Because the development does not go backwards? They make changes to the version they are
currently working on which is beyond 4.05 even when 4.05 was being released. I guess that
you only latched onto the parts of my reply that suited you or perhaps any explanation of
the software development process might as well be written in Chinese as far as you get it.


It seems like that is a hard concept for anyone on this forum to understand. I don't really care about the new content in the PE-2 addon, I just want to be able to fly around and blast stuff outta the sky in what I've got - and I use US planes almost 100% of the time.

Hey, I'm an American, I like my countries stuff. I love that two Russian companies (with the exception of Lead Pursuit) are busting their butts to keep the simulation world alive! (which I've been a part of since the early 1980's when the first simulators came out). I should be able to fly my US planes if I want to and not have to deal with stuff they broke on them (and I recognize they were trying to fix something else - they just caused another problem).

They broke, they broke, they broke! You really did not read 80% of my reply at all.
When someone makes something and it is pointed out mistakes here and there and then that
someone changes what they made to suit it is not fixing what was broke it is fixing what
was not right. And be careful there since no sim can have everything or nearly so.


Is there something wrong with being accountable for someones own actions? It seems to me anyone who asks for that is victimized and thrown to the stake with a fire lit around them faster than they can say - what the heck just happened?

Dude, you're being dissed because of your own actions via the posts you crank out. You are
not a victim. You are making false accusations in a loud and pushy manner. For that you
not only seem surprised but instead of wising up you are getting more shut-minded defensive
with this 'hey, I'm alright so WTF the treatment?' routine.

I have a friend with a 3 year old granddaughter who kicks and screams when she doesn't like
anything and is a bit tired. Simple realities make no difference. We can't do that right
now is only met with louder tantrum. If someone she wants to see is miles away then it can
be a long one indeed as the 3 year old does not understand such simple things.

Just deal with it. You want an IMPROVEMENT of what was made. You will need to get a CHEAP
ADDON to get that in all probablity. Maddox Games is working hard on two lines at once with
finishing addons and making BoB. You want the addon effort to stop just to change the guns
which means resurrecting old code, changing and testing it and then going through an entire
release process which REQUIRES time and coordination with UBI just for the ones who don't want
the addon. And for that you make accusations and throw your tantrum while refusing to listen
to anything but what you want to hear. Get P-O'd with me but I'm at least TRYING TO EXPLAIN
instead of just telling you to shove your guff up far enough to plug your flow.

Get it straight, you are being unreasonable and rude so you don't get treated nice.

I450IVex
06-28-2006, 03:21 AM
Boontywhingers, patch whiners,

either buy it or don't buy it, but for ****'s sake
shut the hell up about it.

this is getting sad...

Ratsack
06-28-2006, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Aviar:
Stated by Ratsack:
-----------------
"Because of the forum campaign about the 'synched' 0.50s making gunnery difficult and reducing the damage done. The constant comparison was between the 0.50s on the P-40 field mod and the six 0.50s on any other US type.

Well, Oleg 'unsynched' them on all the US types, and result is the uneven recoil we see now."
-----------------

The last sentence is misleading, at best. First of all, not all the US planes with 0.50's were un-synched. Secondly, many of the US planes that were un-synched are fine....P-51 and P-47, to name a couple.

The problem is with certain planes (F4U, F4F, F6F, Corsair) that were apparently coded incorrectly.

Please try and get your facts straight before posting comments that can only lead to further misunderstandings.

Aviar

Fine. I'll happily cough to the inaccuracy of my earlier post. Not all of the €˜unsynched€ planes display the problem. Good and thank you for correcting that.

The problem with the wobble appeared at the same time as the €˜unsynch€ fix. I don€t think it€s drawing a long bow to infer that the appearance of one problem with a group of 0.50-armed planes is related to a fix in 0.50-armed planes. Is this inference unlikely?

However, in the context of the question asked, I don€t think my post in answer was misleading, unless you insist on taking a lawyerly view of the subject. I was generalising for the sake of brevity.

Cheers,
Ratsack


Please try to get a sense of perspective.

knightflyte
06-28-2006, 08:18 AM
Is this a joke? Seriously... We have to PAY for something that they purposely broke?

Sounds like... EXTORTION to me (those non-americans please see www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) for a definition)...................


LOL you mean non-English speaking don't you?

bird_brain
06-28-2006, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bird_brain:
Since I said it, I'll explain. I'm not giving you the 3rd degree, nor was that comment directed solely at you.
Facts....
1) Oleg/1C Games is about to release the last pay add-on that we are currently aware of for the long running IL2/FB/ACE/PF/PE2 series.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

What about 46? isnt that an add on to this.... or is that seperate.. I thought the "unnamed new sim" was after 46.... and I knew it wouldnt be an add on.. although I wish it were.. but it's cool if it isnt....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roger that, my bad.... The next to last pay add-on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-HH-Quazi
06-28-2006, 09:17 AM
This is for everyone that refuses to purchase 4.05m, yet whines and biatches: Just roll the game back to the "free" patch that doesn't have this issue. You can't play online anyway, so what is the problem.

This is for those that have purchased 4.05m, yet cries about paying for the next: Get over it. You sure didn't cry any during the last 4 yrs when patches were released not only for any bug fixes (which you had the opportunity via this forum to be active in informing about), but with all the new ac, ground objects, maps, etc were released "freely" by. The man sure did support you at no charge, better than any developer in world has ever treated it's end-users, so stfu and support him and his staff for a change.

I am sick of seeing words like "extortion", and any word describing the same sentement. Granted most of these words are coming from people that have not been around this sim very long, and feel like they are owed something.

For those of you that refuse to buy 4.05m, your game is finished, done, no more support for you. So stfu and keep your accusations and rederick to yourselves. Roll the game back to a patch you are content with and have at it.

Sorry for the rant but some of the posts I have been reading just flat out whizzes me off. I hardly ever rant about anything, but this one above using the word "extortion" got the better of me this morning.

Sillius_Sodus
06-28-2006, 03:10 PM
When I bought Microsoft Office in 2000, it cost me around $500 CAD. For that I got free updates and patches and rightly so. A few years later I upgraded to Office XP Pro (or something like that, the disks are put away), and guess what?, I had to pay another $500 for the extra enhancements and features that were included in a product that is essentially the same as Office 2000. I have also purchased other custom software which only had a limited duration of free upgrading and support. Even Microsoft stops supporting it's products after a certain time, and their programs aren't cheap, as long as you are buying legit, licenced copies that is.

If you draw a parrellel to what's happening with this sim, we have received several patches gratis, which included enhancements that with other applications you'd have to pay for. If you go no further than version 4.04, you are "stuck" with a sim that is very playable with some annoyances like the wobbly F4U and F6F, annoyances which for some are a matter of taste and/or opinion. Bottom line is the F4U and F6F yaw can be compensated for, or not, depending on your point of view but this in no way pooches the whole sim.

Now we are being asked to pay for the next set of enhancements, but the price of these addons is still lower than the price of the original sim. All in all a reasonable situation.

Sure, there are programs out there that offer unlimited free upgrades and patches, Adobe Reader comes to mind. The thing is, in the case of that program, it's use is very focused and it has little capacity for direct user input.

Personally, I will purchase the addons, preferably when they become available in a compilation disc, at least for the first two anyway.

Good hunting,
Sillius_Sodus

WWMaxGunz
06-28-2006, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by knightflyte:
Is this a joke? Seriously... We have to PAY for something that they purposely broke?

Sounds like... EXTORTION to me (those non-americans please see www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) for a definition)...................


LOL you mean non-English speaking don't you?

Why bother when they can look up Internet Troll instead and leave it at that.

VW-IceFire
06-28-2006, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
What about the P38J - will it get its .50s unsynched as well?
I recently discovered that this problem is only on the P-38J WHEN you select Default as the armament option. They are desynced when you select any combination of rockets, bombs, or fuel tanks.

BigKahuna_GS
06-29-2006, 04:11 AM
S!


Thanks for fixing it Oleg & Crew http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Thanks for following this thing thru BirdBrain we all appreciate it.


__________________________________________________ ________________________
IceFire
I recently discovered that this problem is only on the P-38J WHEN you select Default as the armament option. They are desynced when you select any combination of rockets, bombs, or fuel tanks.
__________________________________________________ ________________________


Well you learn something new everyday. Aviar made similar comments.
Didnt know about this and the P38J is one of my favorite rides. I rarely fly it in default mode so thats probably why I never noticed it.

Does this occur for all models of P38 ? (P38L, P38L Late included)


_

JG52Karaya-X
06-29-2006, 05:07 AM
The J is the only one...