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horseback
12-31-2004, 12:52 PM
Tell me if you've had this problem in your offline campaigns: one of your squadronmates consistantly steals credit for your kills. I'm flying the Leningrad 109F-2 campaign, and in 15 missions, I've gotten 18 kills, but I should have another seven or eight, at least five of which have been flat-out stolen by Maj. Greiss.

Normally, I hit refly and shoot the offender down three or four times in quick succession, and this usually results in less interferance and thievery from the party in question when I relent and refly the mission for 'points.'

Greiss, however, is incorrigible. He likes to wait until I've set an enemy a/c on fire or smoking, and once I've pulled up to look for my next target (or avoid becoming one), he slips in, does that AI hovering trick where they stop in mid air, and puts a few meaningless rounds into my kill and announces "This is Number One. He's going down!" No matter how many times I chastise him in 'Refly,' he just goes ahead and does it again.

And again, and again.

This last mission, he got blatant. We were escorting some Ju-52s from Estonia to a new field south of Leningrad, and were jumped by three Pe-2s. I chased the No. 3 bird down & managed to chop off his wing cleanly while Greiss and his wingman chased the other two, nailing one, while the other (No. 1) escaped with a few rounds in the rudder, running right into me. The aircraft was under control, no smoke or vapor trail, actively evading me for almost 20-30 seconds before I put several MG rounds into the cockpit, causing him to spin into the ground from low level.

Greiss and his wingman were 5 km away the whole time, but that didn't keep him from announcing "This is Number One. He's going down!"

This was 5 Refly missions after his initial act of theivery, and I figured I'd spent enough time (a total of two hours) on this one mission, there was a chance that I'd still get my due on return to base, and we were still in Soviet territory with a chance of further action, so he wasn't worth the ammo I might still need.

In short, the little bastage got credit for the kill, even when my track clearly shows him putting no more than 10-15 rounds in the right rudder of the Pe-2 in question almost two minutes before I finally put it into the ground.

So what should I do? Should I 'accidentally' shoot him down on the next mission and hope he's replaced by someone with more integrity, or just wait it out? Greiss is the leading experten in my unit with 37 kills (counting his thefts), and a Knight's Cross holder. In my old Red Baron campaigns, shooting him down (accidentally or otherwise) would result in my career bing terminated by a court martial, and I still dislike taking this kind of action 'for real.' Red Baron also allowed me to put in for transfer, which I did on several occasions (I hated the Nieuport 11 and couldn't get away from it fast enough), but we don't have that option in FB/AEP/PF.

In RL, a young leutnant like myself, no matter how up & coming, would have next to no recourse, and I imagine Greiss will eventually become a (deserving) casualty, but it could be a while.

What do you guys think? Should Greiss go down, or should I suffer through the full immersion scenario?

cheers

horseback

horseback
12-31-2004, 12:52 PM
Tell me if you've had this problem in your offline campaigns: one of your squadronmates consistantly steals credit for your kills. I'm flying the Leningrad 109F-2 campaign, and in 15 missions, I've gotten 18 kills, but I should have another seven or eight, at least five of which have been flat-out stolen by Maj. Greiss.

Normally, I hit refly and shoot the offender down three or four times in quick succession, and this usually results in less interferance and thievery from the party in question when I relent and refly the mission for 'points.'

Greiss, however, is incorrigible. He likes to wait until I've set an enemy a/c on fire or smoking, and once I've pulled up to look for my next target (or avoid becoming one), he slips in, does that AI hovering trick where they stop in mid air, and puts a few meaningless rounds into my kill and announces "This is Number One. He's going down!" No matter how many times I chastise him in 'Refly,' he just goes ahead and does it again.

And again, and again.

This last mission, he got blatant. We were escorting some Ju-52s from Estonia to a new field south of Leningrad, and were jumped by three Pe-2s. I chased the No. 3 bird down & managed to chop off his wing cleanly while Greiss and his wingman chased the other two, nailing one, while the other (No. 1) escaped with a few rounds in the rudder, running right into me. The aircraft was under control, no smoke or vapor trail, actively evading me for almost 20-30 seconds before I put several MG rounds into the cockpit, causing him to spin into the ground from low level.

Greiss and his wingman were 5 km away the whole time, but that didn't keep him from announcing "This is Number One. He's going down!"

This was 5 Refly missions after his initial act of theivery, and I figured I'd spent enough time (a total of two hours) on this one mission, there was a chance that I'd still get my due on return to base, and we were still in Soviet territory with a chance of further action, so he wasn't worth the ammo I might still need.

In short, the little bastage got credit for the kill, even when my track clearly shows him putting no more than 10-15 rounds in the right rudder of the Pe-2 in question almost two minutes before I finally put it into the ground.

So what should I do? Should I 'accidentally' shoot him down on the next mission and hope he's replaced by someone with more integrity, or just wait it out? Greiss is the leading experten in my unit with 37 kills (counting his thefts), and a Knight's Cross holder. In my old Red Baron campaigns, shooting him down (accidentally or otherwise) would result in my career bing terminated by a court martial, and I still dislike taking this kind of action 'for real.' Red Baron also allowed me to put in for transfer, which I did on several occasions (I hated the Nieuport 11 and couldn't get away from it fast enough), but we don't have that option in FB/AEP/PF.

In RL, a young leutnant like myself, no matter how up & coming, would have next to no recourse, and I imagine Greiss will eventually become a (deserving) casualty, but it could be a while.

What do you guys think? Should Greiss go down, or should I suffer through the full immersion scenario?

cheers

horseback

FoolTrottel
12-31-2004, 01:13 PM
Keep on suffering I say....

Ignore him... maybe he will go away ;-)

Okay, here's a little tric:
Make a copy of the folders user, ngen, dgen, missions.
Then, next mission, shoot him down (over enemy territory... ;-) See what happens. If you don't like the result, restore the named folders, keep on flying as if nothing ever happened... (mind you, between making the copy and possibly restoring it, do not fly any other campaigns... results might get lost)

Hiriyu
12-31-2004, 03:55 PM
I feel your pain. Cmdr Comer in my F4-F campaign kept pulling the same stuff with me. After about half a dozen missions, he was eventually shot down, and I became the highest ranking officer on my carrier. Now, whenever one of my AI wingmen pulls that shiz on me, I fly him into an obstacle whilst in formation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tsisqua
12-31-2004, 04:19 PM
Look at it this way . . . these guys could have really existed, and I suspect that some did. In special cases like this they became propaganda warriors like Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire, and were moved to where their kill counts could increase, giving them "hero" status. (Lord, what have I done. PLEASE don't flame me for saying that)

I say let the sucker have his way. AI, or not, he will mess up soon, and you will get a new "hero" to contend with.

On another note . . . Lt. Price from my Coral Sea campaign is now dead. "I swear, Sir, I was shooting at a Zeke and he flew right into the path of my fire. What? Well, yes, Sir, I suppose that Zeke probably was a kilometer away, but I'm a darn good shot!"


Tsisqua
Edit: OMG, the filter won't let me say that Bong's name was D i c k !!!!! It's a good thing that it doesn't filter drug references, or I wouldn't have been able to write his name at all!!!!!!!!

FoolTrottel
12-31-2004, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hiriyu:
I feel your pain. Cmdr Comer in my F4-F campaign kept pulling the same stuff with me. After about half a dozen missions, he was eventually shot down, and I became the highest ranking officer on my carrier. Now, whenever one of my AI wingmen pulls that shiz on me, I fly him into an obstacle whilst in formation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great move!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

horseback
12-31-2004, 04:42 PM
A quick note to the uninitiated-Bong and McGuire started their scoring as 2nd Lieutenants, and neither was a big, physically imposing guy. In any US unit, had they been pulling the kind of **** Greiss is pulling on me, the offended parties would have resorted to direct action outside the Officers' Club (whatever served as one) or privy long before they became 'names.' A black eye and split lip would have cured that habit quickly, and little 'official' notice would have been taken.

I think Bong and McGuire's reputations are safe.

Unless the culprits were higher ranks, with a 'sponsor' even higher up, the kind of abuse I'm getting from Greiss was generally unlikely in US units. However, I lack the cultural insight to comment or make a guess about other countries' unofficial military customs.

Guys?

horseback

LStarosta
12-31-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
Edit: OMG, the filter won't let me say that Bong's name was D i c k !!!!! It's a good thing that it doesn't filter drug references, or I wouldn't have been able to write his name at _all_!!!!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL.

Atomic_Marten
12-31-2004, 05:00 PM
I'm just one weird piece of work, because I do not mind AI fro stealing my kills. Online situation is different tho, but also I'm not so 'angry' to KS.

I fly in Oscar squadron in offline campaign and sometimes, teamwork with AI for shootung down a/c is the only thing that's available (I got mission of B17 interception http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif).

I have witnessed AI kill steal, but it happens rather rare when you set enemy on fire. Most of the times they don't even got a chance to get into firing position after you set enemy a/c on fire because he explode or something..

But as I say, I have witnessed many cases of AI steal my kills, but not one case of such systematic KS case from the side of one AI squad mate.

If that happens to me, I would enjoy it.. really. I found that to be amusing. Look on the bright side: when you switch to F4/G2 or Fw190A4, Maj.Greiss will not have a chance for KSing you anymore.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also I'm using this opportunity to ask you guys do you know some WW2 stories about actual kill stealing? I bet it happened a lot..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>tsisqua:
Look at it this way . . . these guys could have really existed, and I suspect that some did. In special cases like this they became propaganda warriors like Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire, and were moved to where their kill counts could increase, giving them "hero" status. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet it happened that way, but I bet that this is by no means limited to American aces. I believe that was common for every WW2 airforce.

Hiriyu
12-31-2004, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:


On another note . . . Lt. Price from my Coral Sea campaign is now dead. "I swear, Sir, I was shooting at a Zeke and he flew right into the path of my fire. What? Well, yes, Sir, I suppose that Zeke probably _was_ a kilometer away, but I'm a darn good shot!"


Tsisqua
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO. Too bad that debriefing is not an included feature. Coming up with these explanations would be nearly as fun as the game itself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sharpe26
01-01-2005, 03:13 AM
why not a little reverse logic; if the ai is the problem, it can also be the solution. if you're flying wing to major Greiss what's wrong with leaving him to the enemy ai?

NorrisMcWhirter
01-01-2005, 03:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unless the culprits were higher ranks, with a 'sponsor' even higher up, the kind of abuse I'm getting from Greiss was generally unlikely in US units. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bold statement; why are US units more honourable?

I've not seen anything of particular individuals kill stealing in anything I've read except that attacking already damaged aircraft wasn't exceptional in any way; if anything, it was the norm.

Look on the bright side - when your buddies are deliberately stealing kills all the time, you can pretend that you are flying online!

Cheers,
Norris

antifreeze
01-01-2005, 06:55 AM
What would happen if you opened the campaign's squadron.dat file and demoted his rank (For example, changing his rank from 6 to 1)? Might that affect his behaviour? I'm not sure if DGen uses this file to assign AI skill level; I can't see where else DGen would get the AI skill information from?
At the least, he might not be leading the group anymore? It depends if the squadron.dat file is read by DGen when generating the mission, or whether it is 'just for show'.

Interesting experiment though, don't you think?

Friendly_flyer
01-01-2005, 07:13 AM
Perhaps he gets away with it because his father or uncle is an old fishing buddy of Himler.

Breeze147
01-01-2005, 07:42 AM
The solution: Steal the AI kills. That's what I do. Those theiving so and so's have taken at least 10% of my kills. So I steal theirs when I get a chance. Tit for tat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

tsisqua
01-01-2005, 08:25 AM
Just noticed:

Titled by Horseback: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How do I get rid of Major Greiss? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you tried Pinesol? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


Tsisqua

FI_Willie
01-01-2005, 08:56 AM
I had the same problem in a Yak campaign. I outlasted the offenders..

The simplest way is re-start the campaign as MAJOR. You'll still lose a few kills here and there but it won't be so blatant. You will have an AI wingy rather than being forced to wing for the AI.

As for stealing their kills? Hard to do. I've managed a to do it a time or two, but as you explained earlier, they still get the credit.

You can also set your difficulty to INSTANT SUCCESS and just stop the mission. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-01-2005, 09:33 AM
Hmmm, are you sure you`re not getting a bit fixated by this one guy?

Anyway, I`ve had some of my kills nicked in a similar manner, but I look at it this way:

1. If someone did this in real life I`d let it go. What option do I have? You couldn`t shoot them down in reality, well, may be you could but sooner or later you`d be spotted and even if not, you`d have to live with the guilt. If he REALLY got annoying, I`d probably meet him at the debrief as he claims another kill and bust his face up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

2.He`ll foul up. Even a top-notch AI Elite fighter pilot gets shot down eventually (especially on higher AI enemy skill levels). Just conveniently have your radio goe on the fritz when he`s in trouble...

3.He`s helping the overall war effort and you`re winning.

4.Or, if you`re leader, order him to stick with you or RTB...

I just refuse to shoot down my own side. The only times I`ve ever done it was offline (by accident) and Online to destroy one of those annoying Team Killers that pop up every now and then.

Personally, the sim should demote/court-martial anyone caught shooting down friendlies in Campaign...

PBNA-Boosher
01-01-2005, 01:54 PM
If this is the case, then use it to your advantage. Put a few rounds into the enemy, then move ot the next target, put a few rounds in him, all the while your wingmen will be finishing them off. Hopefully when you need help you'll be able to call them, and maybe occasionally you'll be able to get enough bursts in to get a kill.

The trick is to forget about points, and forget about being greedy. The point is to stay alive.

han freak solo
01-01-2005, 05:18 PM
Shoot Major Greiss down. If you see a chute kill him as he drifts to earth. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

I had to do the same to get rid of my flight leader for not being aggresive enough in one offline campaign I was doing with a BF109.

Hey, it's just a "simulated" death, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Right... you shot down one of your own side for not being aggressive enough?

Do you actually have anyone left in your AI Squadron or do you fly your missions solo? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TX-EcoDragon
01-01-2005, 06:00 PM
I think most any good dishwashing detergent will work, but my personal favorite is SimpleGreen. . .

Wait, I guess that's not what you meant :-/

buffscrum
01-01-2005, 06:24 PM
I've gotten that in my offline campaigns from German, American and British wingmen. If I see them lining up a shot on a plane I've flamed, and I can get set up in time, I'll whizz a few rounds past his cockpit just to let him know I'm watching. Sometimes he'll scream about firing on friendlies then break off. I have been tempted now and then to shoot down a friendly, but I haven't done it.

horseback
01-01-2005, 06:35 PM
Maj Greiss has received his just desserts. Attempting to take out a just-landed I-16 while on a bomber escort mission (3000m above him, the other five aircraft of our unit were defending 6 Ju 88s from 11 other I-16s: the one that had landed had been pretty badly shot up by Hptmn Lowe and had retired), Greiss' 109 was hit by AA and nosed into the trees outside the field. I had only to wait two missions.

A sidenote for Norris:

I didn't say or mean to imply that US units are more honorable than those of other countries. I tried to make it clear that I could only speak about the US military, because I've spent most of the last 51 years of my life in close contact with it, as an Air Force Brat, Navy veteran, and field engineer for a major defense contractor working in the field with literally every branch of the US military (and the Coast Guard) over the last 25 years.

I have had enough contact with the people & soldiers, sailers, and airmen of other countries (from Great Britain to Japan, and most points in between)to understand that cultural differences in outlook and method make it difficult for me to predict how the situation I described would be handled in another country's military.

That's why I asked for input. I wanted a cross section of cultural viewpoints and a little insight into how a German officer might have handled the issue in real life.

That the intentional 'stealing' of credit for enemy aircraft destroyed, as opposed to a simple misunderstanding about who did what to which aircraft in the heat of battle did occur, we need only look to Chuck Yeager's statement that he had a guy try to pull the 'Maj Greiss' act on him (and that he never tried it again), or to Don Blakeslee's comment that he didn't initially want to be assigned to one of the Eagle Squadrons because they had a reputation within the RAF for 'playing sister,' that is, backing up each others' claims based on friendship rather than actually having seen the kill made.

The RAF had a few pilots whose records have been subtly questioned by others, but I have the distinct impression that that generation of Englishmen have a distaste for something so unsporting as to openly denounce a fellow officer and pilot. It is obvious, from my reading of a number of wartime aces' biographies, that unnamed persons were transferred to other units abruptly for something other than cheating at cards.

For German examples, there was the pilot from another Staffel in Erich Hartmann's Gruppe who openly questioned that 'Bubi' could be scoring as quickly and often as reported, or some of the Jagdewaffe claims in North Africa that simply don't jibe with RAF records of losses or activities for the day or area in question.

The Soviets had the interesting and laudable practice of awarding 'group kills,' I suspect to avoid disputes about who actually was responsible for the destruction of enemy planes.

These all clearly imply that the practice of taking credit for someone else's work was not limited to one national group. The 'policing' of this kind of activity must necessarily have varied from unit to unit and from culture to culture.

That's what I wanted to bring out.

cheers

horseback

flyingscampi
01-02-2005, 06:03 AM
You fly a sweaty 10 minute combat using all your ammunition and finally you see a belch of smoke and flame from your adversary.

You peel off and prepare to watch his demise - suddenly, several AI wingmen appear and empty their ammunition into the blazing wreck.

I got one! they yell triumphantly.

It makes you want to smash your computer up.

Extreme_One
01-02-2005, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Breeze147:
The solution: Steal the AI kills. That's what I do. Those theiving so and so's have taken at least 10% of my kills. So I steal theirs when I get a chance. Tit for tat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah - that's what I do too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Friendly_flyer
01-02-2005, 06:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Maj Greiss has received his just desserts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that made for some tactful, though not entirely uncheerful comments in the virtual cantina.

Good luck with your career, Horseback! I have thoroughly enjoyed your stories on the disputable Major and other tribulations from the troubled Eastern Front.

Atomic_Marten
01-02-2005, 06:46 AM
Uh.. this is a bit OT, but I play IJA campaign New Guinea with Oscar (1942). I just spotted one name in my SQ 10 dokuritsu Chutai: Saburo Sakai.

And your story of Maj.Greiss is nothing compared to what awaits for me..

Do you see what you have done now!!? You see.. I'm panicking.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Lucius_Esox
01-02-2005, 06:57 AM
This is why I love this sim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
01-02-2005, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
Maj Greiss has received his just desserts. Attempting to take out a just-landed I-16 while on a bomber escort mission (3000m above him, the other five aircraft of our unit were defending 6 Ju 88s from 11 other I-16s: the one that had landed had been pretty badly shot up by Hptmn Lowe and had retired), Greiss' 109 was hit by AA and nosed into the trees outside the field. I had only to wait two missions.

A sidenote for Norris:

I didn't say or mean to imply that US units are more honorable than those of other countries. I tried to make it clear that I could _only_ speak about the US military, because I've spent most of the last 51 years of my life in close contact with it, as an Air Force Brat, Navy veteran, and field engineer for a major defense contractor working in the field with literally every branch of the US military (and the Coast Guard) over the last 25 years.

I have had enough contact with the people & soldiers, sailers, and airmen of other countries (from Great Britain to Japan, and most points in between)to understand that cultural differences in outlook and method make it difficult for me to predict how the situation I described would be handled in another country's military.

That's why I asked for input. I wanted a cross section of cultural viewpoints and a little insight into how a German officer might have handled the issue in real life.

That the intentional 'stealing' of credit for enemy aircraft destroyed, as opposed to a simple misunderstanding about who did what to which aircraft in the heat of battle did occur, we need only look to Chuck Yeager's statement that he had a guy try to pull the 'Maj Greiss' act on him (and that he never tried it again), or to Don Blakeslee's comment that he didn't initially want to be assigned to one of the Eagle Squadrons because they had a reputation within the RAF for 'playing sister,' that is, backing up each others' claims based on friendship rather than actually having seen the kill made.

The RAF had a few pilots whose records have been subtly questioned by others, but I have the distinct impression that that generation of Englishmen have a distaste for something so unsporting as to openly denounce a fellow officer and pilot. It is obvious, from my reading of a number of wartime aces' biographies, that unnamed persons were transferred to other units abruptly for something other than cheating at cards.

For German examples, there was the pilot from another Staffel in Erich Hartmann's Gruppe who openly questioned that 'Bubi' could be scoring as quickly and often as reported, or some of the Jagdewaffe claims in North Africa that simply don't jibe with RAF records of losses or activities for the day or area in question.

The Soviets had the interesting and laudable practice of awarding 'group kills,' I suspect to avoid disputes about who actually was responsible for the destruction of enemy planes.

These all clearly imply that the practice of taking credit for someone else's work was not limited to one national group. The 'policing' of this kind of activity must necessarily have varied from unit to unit and from culture to culture.

That's what I wanted to bring out.

cheers

horseback <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

I see your point, now - thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure what the culture of the military is as I've never served in it but I'm currently reading Pierre Clostermann's accounts and it appears that it would sometimes be the case that two people hit the same aircraft but that they would be quite happy to share the kill. From the pilot accounts that I have read (RAF), pilots were *far* more annoyed with being left in the lurch by a friendly than if someone bagged what they thought was their kill. In fact, a lot of pilots rarely saw if what they attacked had gone down because if you followed your quarry down to see if they crashed, you were very likely to be shot down yourself; i.e. we are priviliged to see an 'enemy aircraft destroyed' message which is far more than real pilots ever got.

In the accounts of LW pilots, I've not actually seen any mention of 'kill stealing' so either it was accepted as being the norm or no-one talked about it. What is apparent, particularly during the BoB is that the LW pilots would be more interested in their own personal scores (at the expense of sacrificing wingmen) whereas the RAF pilots didn't like all that showing off business and boasting about kills would most likely get a knockback from your teammates.

So, maybe the game is entirely realistic in that pilots will naturally attack the weakest (already damaged aircraft) although some better behaviour would be expected from the more experienced (as Clostermann indicated when he said that he was often happy to damage his prey and, if they appeared to be out of the battle, leave them and use his ammo on something that was a real threat).

Cheers,
Norris