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View Full Version : Differential Braking Easily Done Today.



M2morris
11-10-2006, 07:18 PM
It's a pain in the butt to taxi without a v-stab if it gets knocked-off if I manage to land ok after that happens. However; It got me to thinking of brake-steering(like a cessna has). I was thinking that tail-dragger war birds, or any other plane, must have had brake-steering capability too, and it would be a welcome control feature in this sim. Or maybe I have'nt caught it yet. I am still using PF+FB+AEP and have'nt patched or updated in a long time.

FritzGryphon
11-10-2006, 08:00 PM
If you hold down the brake and use the rudder, you can pivot on the spot.

It only really works if you are perfectly stationary.

Historically, some aircraft used toe pedal brakes. In other planes, there was a brake lever on the stick, and the rudder pedals themselves controlled the differential. In some planes in PF you can see this brake lever working.

M2morris
11-10-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
If you hold down the brake and use the rudder, you can pivot on the spot.

It only really works if you are perfectly stationary.

Historically, some aircraft used toe pedal brakes. In other planes, there was a brake lever on the stick, and the rudder pedals themselves controlled the differential. In some planes in PF you can see this brake lever working.
Well, that's sort of what I was thinking of; in a cessna 172 for example,you can control steering while taxiing by pressing on the upper part of the rudder pedals, I can park very accuratley doing that.
What happened to me recently here was; after some dogfighting I found myself landing on an airfield without a v-stab because it was blown off, and I could not steer so I had to stop. I geuss that would be hard to add a brake-diff steering option to the controls section. I'm sure you know what I mean, for ex: You would be able to apply left brake only for a left turn, while the right brake remains free, and you could possibly assign a key command for right or left break, and a key to allow brake steering when wanted so when you are at high speed on a runway durring landing and you don't want it. I'm sure the issue has came up, but has been passed-by.

Waldo.Pepper
11-10-2006, 08:57 PM
Also some aeroplanes had toe brakes and a button on the stick for the nose wheel brake. (The 262 springs to mind here).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

Philipscdrw
11-11-2006, 09:24 AM
Even if you've lost your vertical stabiliser the differential brakes should still work!

Many aircraft had only one brake control, usually a lever on the stick. Douglas Bader, returning to flight after losing both his legs in 1940, was alarmed by the Harvard's cockpit, because it had toe brakes. He was reassured that the Harvard was the only aircraft in RAF service (in 1939) which didn't have a stick-mounted brake control.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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NonWonderDog
11-11-2006, 09:38 AM
There is differential braking in the sim, but this situation has happened to me, too. I was flying an IL-2 and had my vertical stabilizer completely shot off. I managed to land by keeping my bank angle under 15 degrees or so for the rest of the flight, but once I was on the ground I had no differential braking whatsoever.

I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of the differential braking systems that were tied to the rudder, but this really sounds like a bug. I don't think "differential braking system" is part of the damage model.

Funnily enough, I can't remember ever landing after having just my rudder shot off, but I have landed after having my entire vertical stabilizer shot off. I don't know if you normally have differential braking if you lose rudder control.

M2morris
11-11-2006, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
Even if you've lost your vertical stabiliser the differential brakes should still work!


When I taxi slowly in this sim I use the rudder to turn, I gun the engine and give it some rudder. So with no rudder control, I am unable to do that. Sure I can still use the brakes to stop, but not for turning.

WWSensei
11-11-2006, 03:04 PM
One thing to remember is that differential braking only works at full deflection of the rudder so if you haven't got at least the last slider for the rudder all the way to 100 you won't get the full effect.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Sooocool
11-11-2006, 04:36 PM
I use CH pedals and map the toe brakes to the brake axis. The trouble for me is that without a Right and Left brake axis to map to, only one of my toe brakes work. I???ve tried pushing both pedal toes at the same time, but one or the other gets mapped, not both.
When I am rolling on the runway, I can push one toe brake and hear the brake squeal. Then, (resume rolling) I push the other toe brake and no squeal. Also the side that squeals seams to turn faster.
It could be just a case of I didn???t get set up right, but if others are having the same problem, maybe a patch is in order.

M2morris
11-11-2006, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
One thing to remember is that differential braking only works at full deflection of the rudder so if you haven't got at least the last slider for the rudder all the way to 100 you won't get the full effect.

That worked, thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

msalama
11-11-2006, 10:21 PM
Funnily enough, I can't remember ever landing after having just my rudder shot off

I just did last week, after having had both my elevator and rudder controls destroyed by flak. I was @ Gennadich flying the IL-2, and it was definitely hairy, but I managed it! The brake steering, however, was also destroyed - realistically or not - so I had no ground control whatsoever after landing the bird...

This just FYI http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Treetop64
11-11-2006, 10:42 PM
Differential brakes are your friends. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Waldo.Pepper
11-13-2006, 03:55 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen.

I have CH pedals (game port version). But I see no reason this will not work with USB version (though if you have the usb version you can write a script to accomplish differential braking. This script can be found in the ch hanger forum I believe).

But I digress slightly. Here is how I did it. It is simple as you will see.

In the controls section of the game assign a keyboard button to your brakes. Mine is B (I know I am a rebel!)

Now download and install the free applcation joy2key from here...

http://www.electracode.com/4/joy2key/JoyToKey%20English%20Version.htm

Install and configure each pedal to send a b to the keyboard like the following screen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/differentialbraking/db.jpg

That's it. Hope it works for you.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

OD_79
11-13-2006, 03:58 AM
Sounds good, I hadn't thought of that...I just use the right pedal. Only thing is you don't really have differential braking because it still applies both brakes, if it was differential braking then you wouldn't have to move the rudder pedals as well.

OD.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tom1502/HurricaneSig2.jpg (http://www.79vrafhangar.co.uk)

Waldo.Pepper
11-13-2006, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Sooocool:
I use CH pedals and map the toe brakes to the brake axis. The trouble for me is that without a Right and Left brake axis to map to, only one of my toe brakes work. I???ve tried pushing both pedal toes at the same time, but one or the other gets mapped, not both.
When I am rolling on the runway, I can push one toe brake and hear the brake squeal. Then, (resume rolling) I push the other toe brake and no squeal. Also the side that squeals seams to turn faster.
It could be just a case of I didn???t get set up right, but if others are having the same problem, maybe a patch is in order.

A potential solution for you. See my post here.
http://forums.<b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">ubi[/b].com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110...151026305#<b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">5151026305[/b] (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=5151026305&r=5151026305#5151026305)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
11-13-2006, 04:01 AM
Agreed how stupid of me, you still have to shove one pedal ahead. But still I think this is an improvement, for with this method you can get some utility out of both pedal axis.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

WTE_Galway
11-13-2006, 03:05 PM
very handy

too much

WTE_Galway
11-13-2006, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sooocool:
I use CH pedals and map the toe brakes to the brake axis. The trouble for me is that without a Right and Left brake axis to map to, only one of my toe brakes work. I???ve tried pushing both pedal toes at the same time, but one or the other gets mapped, not both.
When I am rolling on the runway, I can push one toe brake and hear the brake squeal. Then, (resume rolling) I push the other toe brake and no squeal. Also the side that squeals seams to turn faster.
It could be just a case of I didn???t get set up right, but if others are having the same problem, maybe a patch is in order.

A potential solution for you. See my post here.
http://forums.<b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">ubi[/b].com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110...151026305#<b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">5151026305[/b] (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=5151026305&r=5151026305#5151026305) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The downside to that solution being you lose the proportional effect of depressing the pedal .. its either brakes on or brakes off.


back to the original topic. IL2 implements proportional differential braking using a single control as this was the most common control system in WWII. The differential effect is controlled by rudder position. To see it at work load a 38 hurri and press your brake pedal/key you will see a small lever in the centre of teh yoke moving whenever you activate the brakes.

M2morris
11-13-2006, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:



back to the original topic. IL2 implements proportional differential braking using a single control as this was the most common control system in WWII. The differential effect is controlled by rudder position. To see it at work load a 38 hurri and press your brake pedal/key you will see a small lever in the centre of teh yoke moving whenever you activate the brakes.
I did what you said with the Hurricane and I saw the lever, I taxiied around a little bit, did some takeoffs and touch-n- goes. I had never even flown the Hurricane one single time since I started flying this sim a few years ago. I quit; went back, and placed 3 KI-84 aces with 50% fuel in-coming, then I went back and flamed them all. I gave myself enough time to get situated with them, they dove at me, and I just smoked those bassturds one-by-one. What's that Hurricane packin anyway? It only looks like 4 30 cal MGs. I musta got some lucky shots. Well, anyway thanks for the brakes advice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Nimits
11-13-2006, 09:39 PM
The Huricane Mk II has either 12x.303 cal MGs or 4x20mm cannon, depending on which verstion you fly. Those 12 .303s really do chew up IJN bombers.

Waldo.Pepper
11-13-2006, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
as the "b" key is purely an "on and off" affair

If you do not want the b depress to be an on and off affair do this....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/differentialbraking/db2.jpg


And what you will get when the pedal is pressed is the following series of key presses.... b-b-b-b-b-b

Similar to anti-lock brakes. Braking efficiency will be literally cut in half, but you will not nose over (likely ever) but I shall say as easily.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
11-13-2006, 09:56 PM
The downside to that solution being you lose the proportional effect of depressing the pedal .. its either brakes on or brakes off.

Try this then... (my third post)

http://forums.<b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">ubi[/b].com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/<b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">5151026305[/b] (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5151026305)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

M2morris
11-13-2006, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Nimits:
The Huricane Mk II has either 12x.303 cal MGs or 4x20mm cannon, depending on which verstion you fly. Those 12 .303s really do chew up IJN bombers.
Holy-geeze- no wonder. The Mk II is the one I chose there. I need to go back and look at this plane again. From ext view in the track it had four barrels, so they must have been those 20s your talking about, they did chew em up pretty good. When I jumped into that plane I thought I was using 4 .30 cal MGs. Bigger can a whuppin than I thought it was.

WTE_Ibis
11-14-2006, 01:06 AM
Thanks for the info m8 but the link
http://www.electracode.com/4/joy2key/JoyToKey%20English%20Version.htm
cannot be found??

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Sooocool
11-14-2006, 01:30 AM
I???ve been away from my computer and too busy to work on the keyboard emulator fix today but I just wanted to say thank you for taking your time and effort to help me, and no telling how many others.

Waldo.Pepper
11-14-2006, 09:33 AM
Works perfectly for me today right now. Google for Joy2key you can find it elsewhere too.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

Platypus_1.JaVA
11-14-2006, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by M2morris:
It's a pain in the butt to taxi without a v-stab if it gets knocked-off if I manage to land ok after that happens. However; It got me to thinking of brake-steering(like a cessna has). I was thinking that tail-dragger war birds, or any other plane, must have had brake-steering capability too, and it would be a welcome control feature in this sim. Or maybe I have'nt caught it yet. I am still using PF+FB+AEP and have'nt patched or updated in a long time.

Uhmmm... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif brake steering is the primary method to move over the ground in this sim.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Aaron_GT
11-14-2006, 10:27 AM
I didn't think braking was possible at all with the game port version of the CH pedals when using them as rudder pedals (i.e. only possible when set as car pedals). Am I wrong. Is it a modified set?

Waldo.Pepper
11-14-2006, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
I didn't think braking was possible at all with the game port version of the CH pedals when using them as rudder pedals (i.e. only possible when set as car pedals). Am I wrong. Is it a modified set?

It is not a modified set. I have mine plugged into the game port. Firstly, you need the driver for game port version from CH here:

ftp://ftp.chproducts.com/pub/chanlg08.exe

On my machine, Windows recognizes these pedals as ID one. ID two is my X45, and ID 3 is a controller box I made for trim with a few extra buttons on it.

My game controller screen looks like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/ch%20gameporthowto/gamecontrollers.jpg

If you click on the CH pro pedals and then on properties, and then on the Axis settings tab, you get to the rudimentary driver that Ch
supplies for these pedals.

I recommend the following settings for the pedals, on the sensitivity 5, dead zone 40, and click the invert for both the X and Y axis. Like in the following image.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/ch%20gameporthowto/CHsettings.jpg

Then make a key in the game act as brakes (not in the hotas sections). Set up joy2key like in my first post in this thread. Joy2key is a TSR program, so just minimize it to the tray, start up the track ir or whatever else you normally use first, your game copy, and your done. Easy as pie.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

Bearcat99
11-14-2006, 03:54 PM
I just give it R or L rudder and brake... works for me.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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RxMan
11-14-2006, 04:41 PM
(Aaron_GT) The CH pedals must be the Pro Pedals for toe brakes.