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-HH- Beebop
05-09-2007, 11:59 PM
Team Italia is proud to announce the release of a fully populated Italy Online map template. There are no moving objects so it is also suitable for Dogfight maps.

Here are some screenshots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/HH_Beebop/Mission%204%20Today/startup.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/HH_Beebop/Mission%204%20Today/rail2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/HH_Beebop/Mission%204%20Today/medsgd8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/HH_Beebop/Mission%204%20Today/WIP_LM15_02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/HH_Beebop/Mission%204%20Today/genoa_harbor_02.jpg

Eye Candy abounds:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/HH_Beebop/Mission%204%20Today/plaza_del_pasta_pool_01.jpg

You can download the template here at Mission 4 Today (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=2341)

Team Italia is:
*Lowfighter
*PBNA Boosher
*123_Spider
*Objisan_Bart
*NHawk
*Beebop

Special thanks to Hawk for compiling this template.

Enjoy!

woofiedog
05-10-2007, 04:06 AM
Extremely Mint work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Especially the swiming pool!

-HH- Beebop
05-10-2007, 12:47 PM
Thanks woofiedog. All work and no play make Jack a dull fighter pilot don't you know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

P.S. nice pic of Woofie.

PBNA-Boosher
05-10-2007, 01:16 PM
Glad to see this is up. Great work guys!

xTHRUDx
05-10-2007, 07:08 PM
wow, that's alot of work. the object placement isn't logical but that is over shadowed by the amount of objects. has anyone tried it? are there FPS issues?

xTHRUDx
05-10-2007, 07:44 PM
just DL it, looked at it. it wont work for DF maps.
for people that use AI in their missions, it may work for them.

template may be the wrong word to use here.
there would be far too many objects to change to fit a mission that you would use it for.

i make template stuff for our DF servers. i keep the static planes generic and non repeating.

example; there would be no 2 bases that share the same static AC type. i look at a base and see all the static planes at this base need to be german. I go to notepad find the all the static planes of that group and switch them to german in notepad. if i did that with your template, stuff would be changing all over the place instead of where i wanted it to change.

you do enough templates you start to learn tricks like this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-HH-Quazi
05-10-2007, 08:33 PM
It works just fine for a DF map. Why wouldn't it? I just ran it with a few m8s. I went into the FMB, found out where some objects were and wrote out some mission objectives for each side for destroying ground objects. Each side is responsible for protecting their interest on the ground, as well as providing escorts for a ground pounding flight. I don't see why any template that these m8s make and share with us wouldn't work as a DF map with mission specific objectives. Can you explain as simply as possible your thoughts on why this template wouldn't work as a DF map? Just wanting to understand your thought\reasons why it wouldn't.

-HH- Beebop
05-10-2007, 08:47 PM
DISCLAIMER
Let me begin by saying I am not acting as a spokes person for Team Italia. The following comments are my own and may not represent those of the other Team members.



Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
just DL it, looked at it. it wont work for DF maps.
Why not?
for people that use AI in their missions, it may work for them.

template may be the wrong word to use here.
What word would you choose?
there would be far too many objects to change to fit a mission that you would use it for.
You can always edit it

i make template stuff for our DF servers. i keep the static planes generic and non repeating.
OK, that's your world, it may not be everybodys.

example; there would be no 2 bases that share the same static AC type.
Why not? I'll be lots of bases had the same aircraft types in real life
i look at a base and see all the static planes at this base need to be german. I go to notepad find the all the static planes of that group and switch them to german in notepad. if i did that with your template, stuff would be changing all over the place instead of where i wanted it to change.
Well just find the objects you want to change. Each object has it's own unique XY coordinates. Or, you could just delete the objects you don't want.

you do enough templates you start to learn tricks like this
would you like to share any with us? Do you have any templates that you would like to share with the community so we can learn from them?

In your previous post you said that the object placement wasn't logical. We never advertised this template as being historical.
The Team also recognized that in it's current form it may not run well on anything but the most robust of systems. That is why Team Normandie released smaller Sub-Templates. Team Italia may do the same but we haven't really discussed this at this time.
This template is for mission builders to work with, giving them many placed objects to choose from. We expected users to delete what they didn't need for their missions or modify the objects to meet their needs..

Now this is not "our" template, it's the communities. We made it for them and encourage them to edit/modify it to suit their needs.
We put a large variety on this map because we wanted to give options to mission makers. Anyone who uses it is free to make any modifications they like and even upload them for others to use. All Team Italia asks is to be credited for the original template.

I guess what I'm really getting at is I felt your comments were a little harsh and made the Team's efforts sound amateurish. The members of the Team are all first rate mission makers and template makers. All have posted missions and templates on both M4T and Flying Legends. Check them out.

Enforcer572005
05-10-2007, 10:04 PM
well nyahh.....man, that is amazing. You made a com trailer outta radio trucks. Id have nver thought of that. And the dry dock. Whoa. Ive always wondered how to do that. Now if we could just raise some of these objects. The squadron CO does neat work.

lowfighter
05-10-2007, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:

example; there would be no 2 bases that share the same static AC type. i look at a base and see all the static planes at this base need to be german. I go to notepad find the all the static planes of that group and switch them to german in notepad. if i did that with your template, stuff would be changing all over the place instead of where i wanted it to change.

you do enough templates you start to learn tricks like this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hey THRUD, that's quite a valid point if you want to change sides quickly on airfields. I think that's what you mean? Then you have to change not only static aircraft but also static objects. Easiest for your purpose is simply to delete all [Static] in notepad. To me the importance of a template comes not from the army items but rather from the [Buildings] items. It's sooo easy to place 20 static AC on an airfield, give me one map with 10 airfields and the job is done in 10 minutes. But it's damn hard to place 1000! objects on each airfield and that such that you bring the place alive. THAT I can't do in 10 minutes not to talk about a full map. That's why I love mission templates...
This template (I have very very little contribution so I can talk http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) is simply inhuman, never saw such a display of beauty and variety of ideas on the same map.
Well, what I'm saying is: a thousand thanks to my friends, for the joy the Italy template produced to me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Ah, I guess constructive criticism is more than welcomed. Like: do you see any illogical stuff from a military point of view? That's one thing I'm always pondering about, and I'm really eager to correct. Example: if I see a AA battery with the guns placed 10 meters appart, that's military illogical http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xTHRUDx
05-11-2007, 01:08 AM
whew, where to start.

Beebop i'm not attacking you, but i'm trying to offer some help. Your response came across as a little too defensive.

I'm sorry, I realize I left out the part in my post about why it won't work in DF maps.

The reason is, you have static objects blocking the online spawn points. When the player count for that airfield begins to climb players will begin to collide with the placed objects when they spawn. It appears you don't know the method for finding the online spawn points in a DF map.

@lowfighter
It looks like you understood my example and Beebop didn't.


@ Beebop

I'll try to explain things more clear and respond/answer the questions you asked.


You can always edit it
Correct, but the point of a template is to do minimal editing to get the desired result.



I make template stuff for our DF servers. I keep the static planes generic and non repeating.
OK, that's your world, it may not be everybodys.

example; there would be no 2 bases that share the same static AC type.
Why not? I'll be lots of bases had the same aircraft types in real life


This looks like where I lost you. Yes, bases had the same AC in real life.
I was trying to describe a template technique.

Lets say you have a blank map that only has 4 airfields on it.
-base 1. i place spits and bettys as static objects all over that field
-base 2. i place i-16's and he-111's all over that
-base 3. i place fw190 and b-17 all over that
-base 4. i place p-51 and TB-3 all over it.

Boom, your template is done. Now, how to use it.
Notice that each base has a different static plane at it? it's important you grasp that part.

usage; we don't know who will be fighting on this map or what the plane set will be. we still don't know which bases are red and which are blue. it doesn't matter yet, the planes are all placed, we put objects around them to make them looked lived in. now all we need is the scenario.

lets make one.
what's the plane set? i don't know lets make one up. how about b-25's and p-38j's vs G-2's and Macchis.

Frontline? We don't know where it's gonna be. It doesn't matter. We got a template. So lets say base 1 and 2 are red and 3 and 4 are blue.

All the planes at base 1 and 2 need to be b-25's and p-38's and every thing at base 3 and 4 needs to be G-2's and Macchis.
So i go to notepad and use this cool feature called "find and replace all" Let's see what's at base 1. It looks like spits and bettys. Find (spits) replace with (p-38's) ENTER. And just like that you've put the correct AC at the correct base without affecting the other bases. Find (betty) replace with (b-25). In a few clicks we've put the desired ac at the desired base.

To me, that is an effective template.
In your example, stuff all over the map would be changing that i wouldn't wan't to be changed.

This kind of object placement works for red and blue vehicles too. this way you can keep the red stuff on the red side and the blue stuff on the blue side. "find and replace all" is a time saver.

As far as my "illogicial" comment, I was refering to the object placement and how they relate to each other.
Example; the pic above with the boats. Can you show me a pic of anyplace in the world, past or present that would block ships in like that? Placing lots of objects is tough, but the tougher part is finding the meaning of "why would this even be here in the 1st place" you have to study lots of pics noting why stuff is where it is. (i'm being general here in these next comments) putting fuel next to runways? Of all the places to set up my tent city, would i pick the area right next to the runway?

Just ask yourself these questions when doing object placement. It's what makes it so tough for me as well. I study pics, aerial photos, etc trying to get the reason why stuff is where is it.

As for my templates, i don't give them out. My goal is give people something that they can only get at our place. If a tv network spent alot of money and time to develop a program to show on their network, would they also show it on other channels? no, they want you to come to thier channel.

I hope i have been clear.

-HH-Quazi
05-11-2007, 02:14 AM
Well, I can understand static ac being in the way of spawn points. That was stated simple enough for my menial non-mission making mind to grasp. HEHE

Thanks for taking the time to respond to Beebops post. I believe it will make things a bit clearer on where you were coming from.

lowfighter
05-11-2007, 02:24 AM
I think everybody wants to keep things military-logical in whatever template. BUT,and now I'm talking about myself, sometimes I do place things in a wrong way, I know it's wrong but I do this because of lack of certain features or objects in the game for example. So I compromise. Some people would like that, some would not. Sometimes I open a template done by somebody else and see something I even can't understand what purpose it serves. It's about imagining things, sometimes I fail to see what the builder wants to represent. It's a very very interesting topic, very useful to discuss, and to learn,I suggest we can start some separate thread in FMB or M4T perhaps, in fact I had the intention to start a thread like that for a long time. I hesitated because pointing to logical flaws in templates might look like I point my finger to individuals doing templates, and I hate that.
Thrud, from your tone I feel like you're bitter about something. Deal to have some cool discussion somewhere else, FMB forum or M4T?

Gitano1979
05-11-2007, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
It appears you don't know the method for finding the online spawn points in a DF map.

how can i do that?

BTW, nice work guys!

xTHRUDx
05-11-2007, 10:46 AM
Thrud, from your tone I feel like you're bitter about something.

unfortunately, typing has the draw back of not being able to detect one's tone. kind of like the that old phrase "i don't beat my kids". if you pick any word in that phrase and epmphasize it, it will have a different meaning. "i don't beat MY kids" or "i don't beat my KIDS" etc.
anyway, i'm not bitter.

One thing to also think about is that this is a flgiht simmualtion. How is the user of the map going to experience it? that should also factor into your object placement. If eveyone is going to be in the air fighting, how much detail should be added that they would never see anyway? if they are never going to see it, why take up computer memory with it?

i'll use an analogy that's close to me. i'm in the film and video industry. If a scene requires action to take place in a kitchen, we only build what the audience will see and what the actors will interact with. the sink won't work, there will be no dishes in the cabinets, and the door to the garage, is just that, a door. Nothing is behind it.
I apply these thoughts when i make maps. An airfield where the player takes off, and is very close to everything, requires greater detail than say a target that will be attacked by bombers from 12k feet.

lowfighter
05-11-2007, 11:56 AM
Thrud, people are enjoying the game in different ways. Some enjoy flying high, some enjoy flying low. The low guys enjoy seeing detailed targets. Some also enjoy seeing towns or villages or whatever spots developed by the builder, although they are not military targets in a mission. It just brings the feeling that the planet which you see from your cockpit contains more life than that contained in 3 airfields and a harbor. Again, happy people the high alt fans, they don't need much scenery enhancement except on the airfields, exactly what you said. Everybody wants a mission to run as smoothly as possible. Howver sometimes it's worth, at least to me, the price of a heavier mission.
Also this template is not meant as a dogfight map but as a map which can be tuned ALSO to dogfight purposes. But it can be tuned for single missions or coops too. It's not a map suited for everyone as it is, but everyone can suit it himself to his own purposes.
No more, I'll start a thread tomorrow about this kind of stuff, you're welcomed.

LStarosta
05-11-2007, 12:31 PM
Wow, outstanding work! I'm looking forward to some low and slow VFR over this scenery. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

xTHRUDx
05-11-2007, 02:45 PM
No more, I'll start a thread tomorrow about this kind of stuff, you're welcomed.

rgr, thanks LowFighter

-HH- Beebop
05-11-2007, 07:39 PM
Before this moves to another thread I'd like to respond...

Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
whew, where to start.

Beebop i'm not attacking you, but i'm trying to offer some help. Your response came across as a little too defensive.
<span class="ev_code_yellow">I agree I was defensive. As I stated before I felt you were characterizing the efforts of the Team as amateurish. I know just how hard everyone worked on their contributions and that they are far from neophytes to mission building.</span>

I'm sorry, I realize I left out the part in my post about why it won't work in DF maps.

The reason is, you have static objects blocking the online spawn points. When the player count for that airfield begins to climb players will begin to collide with the placed objects when they spawn. It appears you don't know the method for finding the online spawn points in a DF map.
<span class="ev_code_yellow">I did not know that. Neither did the Team obviously. That issue was never breached when the Team Normandie template(s) were released. I have made very few dogfight maps so was unaware of this. I doubt any of the other Team members did either. If they had we would have taken a different approach to the spawn areas. Gitano1979 asks a good question though. Is there any way to know where planes will spawn on a dogfight map? Or should the entire "parking areas" be left clear? (this could be answered in the new thread)</span>

@lowfighter
It looks like you understood my example and Beebop didn't.
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Well lowfighter probably has the most experience of the Team. I know I relied heavily on his input and observations.</span>


@ Beebop

I'll try to explain things more clear and respond/answer the questions you asked.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You can always edit it
Correct, but the point of a template is to do minimal editing to get the desired result.



I make template stuff for our DF servers. I keep the static planes generic and non repeating.
OK, that's your world, it may not be everybodys.

example; there would be no 2 bases that share the same static AC type.
Why not? I'll be lots of bases had the same aircraft types in real life


This looks like where I lost you. Yes, bases had the same AC in real life.
I was trying to describe a template technique.

Lets say you have a blank map that only has 4 airfields on it.
-base 1. i place spits and bettys as static objects all over that field
-base 2. i place i-16's and he-111's all over that
-base 3. i place fw190 and b-17 all over that
-base 4. i place p-51 and TB-3 all over it.

Boom, your template is done. Now, how to use it.
Notice that each base has a different static plane at it? it's important you grasp that part.

usage; we don't know who will be fighting on this map or what the plane set will be. we still don't know which bases are red and which are blue. it doesn't matter yet, the planes are all placed, we put objects around them to make them looked lived in. now all we need is the scenario.

lets make one.
what's the plane set? i don't know lets make one up. how about b-25's and p-38j's vs G-2's and Macchis.

Frontline? We don't know where it's gonna be. It doesn't matter. We got a template. So lets say base 1 and 2 are red and 3 and 4 are blue.

All the planes at base 1 and 2 need to be b-25's and p-38's and every thing at base 3 and 4 needs to be G-2's and Macchis.
So i go to notepad and use this cool feature called "find and replace all" Let's see what's at base 1. It looks like spits and bettys. Find (spits) replace with (p-38's) ENTER. And just like that you've put the correct AC at the correct base without affecting the other bases. Find (betty) replace with (b-25). In a few clicks we've put the desired ac at the desired base.

To me, that is an effective template.
In your example, stuff all over the map would be changing that i wouldn't wan't to be changed.

This kind of object placement works for red and blue vehicles too. this way you can keep the red stuff on the red side and the blue stuff on the blue side. "find and replace all" is a time saver.

As far as my "illogicial" comment, I was refering to the object placement and how they relate to each other.
Example; the pic above with the boats. Can you show me a pic of anyplace in the world, past or present that would block ships in like that? Placing lots of objects is tough, but the tougher part is finding the meaning of "why would this even be here in the 1st place" you have to study lots of pics noting why stuff is where it is. (i'm being general here in these next comments) putting fuel next to runways? Of all the places to set up my tent city, would i pick the area right next to the runway?

Just ask yourself these questions when doing object placement. It's what makes it so tough for me as well. I study pics, aerial photos, etc trying to get the reason why stuff is where is it.
<span class="ev_code_yellow">to quote a famous personage..'whew, here to start."</span> http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Obviously you are making templates for a "targeted market", the DF server. We made a template for all. We only stated that it was "suitable" for dogfights in the sense that there were no moving objects that would cause the template not to load.

I am very familiar with the "find and replace" feature of Notepad. (thanks to Zeus-cat who turned me on to it.) That is a very sensible approach for your designs. I have used it and saved many, many hours when compiling the various Team Normandie templates. And yes it could make hash out of the template if used in that manner. We were trying to provide what we felt was a realistic approach to what one might expect on any given airfield. Your DF scenarios by their very nature can call for such a limited planeset.

You mention in another post about your work in the film/video industry. The difference is the point of view. Your audience can only look at what the camera points at. Our audience can fly behind that fake garage door and when they destroy the sink they hope to see water spew out. But since we are limited as to available objects we do what we can so that when the flyer comes back for a second past they see the whole garage and when they drop a 100 pounder on the kitchen we give them something akin to the water. It's a matter of viewpoint eh?

As for the illogical placement, I can only speak for myself, I study many, many recon photos of real life WW II places and base my work on that. I think that all the team members probably have done much the same. Now if you are speaking of the harbors in Genoa and Napoli, those breakwaters are default to the map. We couldn't remove them. that concern should rightfully be taken up with the mapmaker(s).</span>

As for my templates, i don't give them out. My goal is give people something that they can only get at our place. If a tv network spent alot of money and time to develop a program to show on their network, would they also show it on other channels? no, they want you to come to thier channel.
<span class="ev_code_yellow">And there is the fundamental difference in our approaches to template making. Team Italia made a template for public consumption. We based our work not only on WW II photos and descriptions, but on the response we got from the community whereas you make templates for the enjoyment of those who primarily want to shoot at other planes. (Not that there is anything wrong in that.) You audience doesn't care what is on the ground unless it's AAA to avoid or ground targets to destroy.</span>

I hope i have been clear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Yes you have and thank you for explaining where you were coming from. I apologize if I seemed a bit caustic but so often in these forums you see people posting that this is wrong and that is wrong but offer no reasonable explanation for why they feel that way. I'm glad you are not one of them.

See you in the FMB thread that lowfighter plans on starting. I'm sure you can provide much valuable information and pointers that will benefit us all.

Regards</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

triad773
05-11-2007, 07:47 PM
WOW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif this looks great! Can't wait to try it!

A big ~S~ (and Thank You!) to all those on the team who created such nice work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Cheers

Triad

-HH- Beebop
05-11-2007, 07:57 PM
On behalf of Team Italia, thank you for all your compliments and comments. Comments in particular are what drive any mission/campiagn maker to achieve greater heights. Thanks everyone!

xTHRUDx
05-11-2007, 08:25 PM
no probs Beebop. i didn't get a chance to awnser the DF spawn point qestion, i ran out of time. i'll explain in other thread.

JRJacobs
05-12-2007, 06:04 AM
you guys have raised this to an art form - thanks to all

lowfighter
05-12-2007, 07:22 AM
Just want to point out an uncommon feature I like a lot in this template: Spider has populated a bit the little towns in the valleys. He did a great job with that, I'm still flying aimlesly in my Gladiator along the roads and got happy whenever one of the "Spidertowns" comes into sight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Hehe, and if you look sharp you may notice the enemy is hiding out there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

-HH- Beebop
05-12-2007, 09:34 AM
"Spidertowns"....I like it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Monguse
05-13-2007, 08:13 AM
Beebop,


I wanted to drop in after Thrud turned me on to your Italy map. I very much appreciate it and will probably snag elements from the map to hopefully create a series of COOP maps I can indulge in.

Nevertheless, lots of work guys, it's very much appreciated.

Now, in order to actually see what Thrud does might I suggest you get the map team together and meet Thrud and I on comms and we'll cycle some maps. This way you guys can see and get a better feel for what Thrud has been able to do. I've seen some good maps and some bad maps but in my opinion, Thrud has been able to pull together some very cool stuff. I'd love to say all the maps we have are excellent but in reality, the only reason we don't have many is because they take for ever to create.

Just let us know when you guys want to get together. You have an open ended invitation.

-HH- Beebop
05-13-2007, 01:48 PM
Thanks 'Guse. I remember flying on Historia once. It was quite interesting level bombing with a B-25. I'll let the other members know. I'l certainly take you up on your offer sometime this week. ~S~

NHawk52
05-14-2007, 11:00 AM
To quote Beebop: "DISCLAIMER - Let me begin by saying I am not acting as a spokes person for Team Italia. The following comments are my own and may not represent those of the other Team members."

I believe that the Team Italia master map template is "suitable" for use as a "dogfight map" from the perspective that it contains none of the moving objects originally incorporated by the builders. It was neither designed nor intended to be a "dogfight map", as I understand them, at anytime in the designing process. I, personally, give very little consideration to "dogfight map" style when populating a map - possibly because I don't enjoy "dogfighting" as I have experienced it. I can understand that for one who prefers that type of "mapping goal", there are template factors such as spawn points or having different planes at each field that would be important issues to them, but that doesn't suit my concept of "mission planning" or "immersion" while working on a set design. As an FMB user, I feel that any item(s) or object(s) can be quite easily changed in FMB and/or notepad to suit the user and fully expect that they will do just that.

As a "builder", I know that I have what I believe is a "logical purpose" for everything that I make that is consistent with the scenario that I personally envision. And I generally presume that others do the same and will take the time to try to determine and understand theirs. If theirs doesn't suit my purpose, I'll either not use it or change it - just as I'd expect them to do with mine. It must be accepted that in artistic design concepts, there are as many ways to do something as there are people who try to do it.

I am quite pleased with the "set dressing", the visual effects, the innovation, and the selfless time and effort of all the contributors to this template. I am just as pleased that others enjoy its production and will use it in whatever ways that will suit their pleasure and needs. I don't believe that any of the contributors of templates to M4T are doing them for just their own "network", but rather for the benefit and enjoyment of the general IL2 public.

Not everyone enjoys the same aspects of the sim. Some like to fly hard and shoot-em-up, some like to role-play "historically", some like the scenery, some are mission-oriented, and some just plain like to fly. It remains true that "You can't please all the people all the time." I consider that 50% or better is a successful endeavor.

NHawk

-HH- Beebop
05-14-2007, 11:12 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
Well said sir.