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View Full Version : Using Airborne Gunners on ground as AAA.



DS-Turret
06-03-2005, 11:21 AM
I use Airborne Gunners on ground as AAA because AI AAA have bad accuracy when trying to shoot down vulchers. Human Airborne Gunners on ground are more deadly than AI AAA below 1,000 meters. If I had a playable AAA then I would do a better job than AI AAA to shoot down vulchers. It would be difficult to argue that a AAA is too accurate if it's operated by a human. Give me a gun sight on 40 mm Bofors & I'll knock out enemy aircraft 3 km away before they can reach my Airbase to vulch. I'm a vulcher myself, I'm an extreme vulcher but that doesn't mean I want to get vulched just because I vulch. I vulch & will try to avoid getting vulched.

MEGILE
06-03-2005, 11:56 AM
You can actually do this on WW2:OL with various AAA guns, including the Bofors. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DS-Turret
06-03-2005, 11:59 AM
What is WW2:OL?

ManicGibber
06-03-2005, 01:28 PM
It's easy to splat a plane at a few km's distance using flak, in Battlefield 1942 as well.

DS-Turret
06-03-2005, 02:54 PM
Flak guns have a maximum rate of fire at 20 rounds/minute. That is 1 round for every 3 seconds. How can it be easy to shoot down a enemy aircraft at a few km with flak?

Fennec_P
06-03-2005, 08:06 PM
BF42 not exactly what I'd call a sim anyway...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Oleg say something about human-operated flak in BoB?

Might have just been a rumor or something I read, but it sounds like loads of fun. I ¥ TB-3 flakmachine.

DS-Turret
06-04-2005, 04:10 AM
A drivable AAA would be very good & I would use only AAA to defend all ground targets. I think the most effective way to defend ground targets is to have AAA operated by humans. Operating AAA is the same concept as Airborne Gunnery & it's better because of much more firepower. With drivable AAA then there is no need for AI AAA because human AAA is far more accurate & removing AI AAA would reduce lag problems on servers. Imagine how effective it is to stop all vulchers if every player on an Airbase spawns in a drivable AAA instead of making desperate attempts to take off in Fighters & get vulched constantly. It gives me an idea to drive a AAA, park it under a furball & start blasting away against enemy Fighters doing low speed turning. That would for sure bring some excitement into the furball.

Drivable AAA is needed very much because it can do so much more than what AI AAA can do. Stop all vulchers, defend all ground targets, friendly Fighters that are damaged & have no wingmen can fly in circles around friendly human AAA to shake loose the enemy Fighters.

x6BL_Brando
06-04-2005, 04:54 AM
Very few ground-based guns would easily simulated (or virtually operated) without resorting to arcade-like shortcuts. The .50 calibre machine guns maybe, but all the rest are a lot more cumbersome and involve a crew. Even if you're gonna let the loader do his job as an AI, there are still a few controls that would need binding to keys - traverse wheel, elevation wheel, firing mechanism - and a lot more calculations to do. Ready-use ammo limitations...fusing...an observer to warn of incoming (cos the gun-layer has his eye welded to a tube-sight). It's a lot more complex than just waggling a joystick and pressing a tit.

If the AI gunners can't defend a field adequately then the answer is more guns needed! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DS-Turret
06-04-2005, 06:21 AM
Using a mouse to rotate Gunner positions on AAA can't be more difficult than using a mouse to rotate Gunner positions on aircraft.

x6BL_Brando
06-04-2005, 04:11 PM
Using a mouse to rotate Gunner positions on AAA can't be more difficult than using a mouse to rotate Gunner positions on aircraft.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that a tail-gunner wouldn't last very long without a pilot in the front seat.....and AA guns likewise have a composite crew, except perhaps the free-standing 0.50's and the lighter pom-pom guns (though actually they did have loaders).

Just being able to fire a Bofors or an Oerlikon, let alone an 88, using a mouse seems like a sacrifice of the standard of virtual realism that FB, etc, etc, has always strived for. Maybe left-click for elevation, right-click for traverse, and scroll-click for trigger might be a bit nearer to it, whaddya think? Just being able to track a plane using the cursor seems very close to arcade-style for me.

Fennec_P
06-04-2005, 04:40 PM
Or perhaps, retain the mouse for traverse and elevation, but impose a maximum turn/elevate rate.

Same goes for airborne gunners. Turrets have a maximum rotate speed, which is not modeled in PF (can turn as fast as you move the mouse). Even for hand-held weapons, they should be more difficult to move.

I also hope that weapons have the need to be reloaded. Not just magazines vanishing while you fire.

DS-Turret
06-05-2005, 07:21 AM
Track IR controlling Airborne Gunners would be awesome. Attack Helicopters that has it's Gun Turret system following the Pilot's head movements. Lets bring this Gun Turret system back in time by having Track IR simulating the Gun Turret system on Attack Helicopters but using this on World War 2 Bombers instead. Would this be considered as cheating?

I have a better idea. A Track IR controlling a 90 mm Flak Gun that use radio detonator fuse. Radio detonator fuse will cause flak rounds to explode when it senses it's close to aircraft. With this 90 mm Flak Gun controlled by Track IR & using radio detonator fuse then I'll take out enemy aircraft 10 km away. Would you like to get blown away from human 90 mm Flak Guns at 10 km distance with pin point accuracy?

It's not realistic to fly an aircraft from Gunner positions. I still have control on all functions as a Pilot while I'm in any Gunner positions. A V 4.00 document states that a powered Gun Turret rotates at maximum 60 degrees/second & that would be 360 degrees in 6 seconds. I increase mouse sensitivity to 2.0 & I rotate 360 degrees in 2 seconds. Some may call this cheating but I don't care because I take any advantage that I can find that is part of the game.

If all AI Airborne Gunners were to be removed then the focus would be concentrated on stopping guys like me from rotating Airborne Gunner positions faster than historical. If mouse control for Gunner positions was to be changed to joystick control then this would bring in the historical accuracy of rotating 60 degrees/second. Airborne Gunner control with joystick is just as effective because it worked great in Microprose B-17 Flying Fortress 2.

If Airborne Gunner control was to be changed from mouse to joystick then the focus would be concentrated on that it's the concept itself of using a Airborne Gunner that isn't fair towards enemy Fighters because Fighters have to move the aircraft to line up for a shot while Airborne Gunners only have to move guns & not the aircraft to line up for a shot.

PlaneEater
06-05-2005, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Same goes for airborne gunners. Turrets have a maximum rotate speed, which is not modeled in PF (can turn as fast as you move the mouse). Even for hand-held weapons, they should be more difficult to move.


Nope... Try whipping around the Martin turrets on the B-25 or A-20. They only go so fast. It's even in the 3.0 PF readme--I can't remember what the maximum deg/sec speed is for the Martin turrets, but it's somewhat limited.

However, they can pick up and move decently, so it might feel like you can wave them around as fast as you want.

F19_Olli72
06-06-2005, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by PlaneEater:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Same goes for airborne gunners. Turrets have a maximum rotate speed, which is not modeled in PF (can turn as fast as you move the mouse). Even for hand-held weapons, they should be more difficult to move.


Nope... Try whipping around the Martin turrets on the B-25 or A-20. They only go so fast. It's even in the 3.0 PF readme--I can't remember what the maximum deg/sec speed is for the Martin turrets, but it's somewhat limited.

However, they can pick up and move decently, so it might feel like you can wave them around as fast as you want. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the PF readme: "Maximum traverse speed for the electric top turret is 60 deg / sec"

I even tried to put my mouse on max speed, doesnt help. As for the mounted hand operated guns, check my post in the "On the subject of AI gunners" thread...