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View Full Version : Taking sides and shame and all that



Krt_Bong
01-22-2005, 02:03 PM
I saw that this post was locked on the issue of shame in taking Axis or Allied and then I read this one posted Sat September 11 2004 06:06
The question is: do you think Chuck Yeager would like to take a ride in a Zero or a Me 262? Wink2

I say: yes. And would he like to test it in combat against the best the allied had without really hurting anyone?

Yes. Because I think he likes the aircraft.
-----------------------------------------------------
I went to an Airshow a few years ago and met R.A. "Bob" Hoover who had evidently had his ticket pulled because of his advanced age. I had asked him about Mustangs and Flight sims and other subjects that might pique his interest just to have a conversation with a man who is living history. He thought that some of the stuff (flight sims) was amazing and then he regailed me of a tale about when at the end of the war and he was in a POW camp outside a Luftwaffe base the advancing Allies had caused their captors to abandon their posts pretty much leaving them to walk right out of camp and onto the base whereupon he walked up to a 190 got in it and after a little quick study of the instruments started it up, took off and flew it back to friendly lines. He said that surprisingly he didn't encounter any friendlies or he surely would have been shot down but the experience was an exciting one for he had never flown the 190 before and it was "fun". We in the flight sim community and indeed the model community because there is some correllation between them wish to re-create or get a feel for what it was like to fly these planes regardless of whose policies they served. There are still those people out there who are offended by the display of the Swastika symbol on model aircraft because of what it represents regardless of the place that it serves in history( and incedently it's mirror image is an American Indian symbol for luck ironically) and I suppose that this is much the same as an image of the Twin Towers will be for my generation, or the Arizona for my Grandfather's. There is no shame in recreating the great Battles of history in their own context, wearing the appropriate markings as they were marked. No the shame is in forgetting that the prejudices or the politcal agendas of those who used those weapons or symbols is what we should never allow to pass from memory were the real threats not the symbols that they flew under, not the Swastika or the Messerschmitt, Not the Betty the Val or the Meatball painted on the side. It was Hitler and Hirohito it was Naziism and Fascism. Some people were actually saying after 9-11 that flight Sims should be pulled from shelves as if that could prevent another attack. Lets just remember what we are doing this for is still just entertainment not politics.
"They say the Human Race is falling on it's face and hasn't very far to go..." -Nellie Flatbush; Rodgers and Hammerstein's South Pacific

Saburo_0
01-22-2005, 05:03 PM
To any who haven't read it, Bob Hoover's book is one of the best aviation books i've ever read! If you love old planes you'll love the book.

DL Moffet
01-22-2005, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krt_Bong:
I saw that this post was locked on the issue of shame in taking Axis or Allied and then I read this one posted Sat September 11 2004 06:06
The question is: do you think Chuck Yeager would like to take a ride in a Zero or a Me 262? Wink2

I say: yes. And would he like to test it in combat against the best the allied had without really hurting anyone?

Yes. Because I think he likes the aircraft.
-----------------------------------------------------
I went to an Airshow a few years ago and met R.A. "Bob" Hoover who had evidently had his ticket pulled because of his advanced age. I had asked him about Mustangs and Flight sims and other subjects that might pique his interest just to have a conversation with a man who is living history. He thought that some of the stuff (flight sims) was amazing and then he regailed me of a tale about when at the end of the war and he was in a POW camp outside a Luftwaffe base the advancing Allies had caused their captors to abandon their posts pretty much leaving them to walk right out of camp and onto the base whereupon he walked up to a 190 got in it and after a little quick study of the instruments started it up, took off and flew it back to friendly lines. He said that surprisingly he didn't encounter any friendlies or he surely would have been shot down but the experience was an exciting one for he had never flown the 190 before and it was "fun". We in the flight sim community and indeed the model community because there is some correllation between them wish to re-create or get a feel for what it was like to fly these planes regardless of whose policies they served. There are still those people out there who are offended by the display of the Swastika symbol on model aircraft because of what it represents regardless of the place that it serves in history( and incedently it's mirror image is an American Indian symbol for luck ironically) and I suppose that this is much the same as an image of the Twin Towers will be for my generation, or the Arizona for my Grandfather's. There is no shame in recreating the great Battles of history in their own context, wearing the appropriate markings as they were marked. No the shame is in forgetting that the prejudices or the politcal agendas of those who used those weapons or symbols is what we should never allow to pass from memory were the real threats not the symbols that they flew under, not the Swastika or the Messerschmitt, Not the Betty the Val or the Meatball painted on the side. It was Hitler and Hirohito it was Naziism and Fascism. Some people were actually saying after 9-11 that flight Sims should be pulled from shelves as if that could prevent another attack. Lets just remember what we are doing this for is still just entertainment not politics.
"They say the Human Race is falling on it's face and hasn't very far to go..." -Nellie Flatbush; Rodgers and Hammerstein's South Pacific <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Swastika, actually, is an inverted pramantha. It has been around for thousands of years, including in American Indian symbology. The primary difference between the Indian version and the European/Middle Eastern/Far Eastern version is that in Indian decorations it faced right or left pretty much at random. However, in Europe it always faced left. It has been found, for example, on a First Century A.D. Roman shield found in a basement in the Roman fortress at Dura Europus. Four of them on each corner of a decorative square around the boss plate, all facing left. Additionally, in a Late Imperial painting an infantryman is shown wearing a buff colored tunic with two pramanthas, one on the front of each thigh; both face left.
The Nazis adopted this insignia, but inverted it so that it faced right. When I use this symbol I always face it left as is traditional and an inversion of the NSDAP symbol.

And, on this topic specifically:
Politically I refer to myself as a Jeffersonian Liberal. This places me at diametric odds with Fascism.
Fascism is a Moderate Leftist Ideology.
Regulated Market Economics vs Statist Economics. Neither Capitalism nor Communism, but both together - to paraphrase Mussolini.
I believe in Free Market Economics.
Fascism, like other Leftist Ideoligies, believes in a strongly centralized state in one form or another where the state guides or dictates the affairs of the nation and its people.
I believe, as Jefferson, that "A government which governs least, governs best."
Now, I understand that there is a most potent desire on the part of the owners of this forum to avoid politics, which is well and good. Thus, I wish to clarify that I addressed the above only to place in perspective what I have to say on this subject. The above passes no judgements on anyone's politcal beliefs or ideology whatsoever, nor is intended to. It is merely a logical instuction on political and governmental thoughts and methods solely to place in perspective my own views.

That said:
I happily fly for the Luftwaffe.
Hitler slaughtered 10 million human beings.
I happily fly for the VVS.
Joseph Dzhugashvili (Stalin) slaughtered 20 to 30 million of his own people and is probably the most blood-thirsty tyrant ever known in human history.
Politically and Ideologically I am vehemently and assiduously opposed to either regime and their Economic and Governmental systems. In my view the war on the Eastern Front was a titanic struggle between the two greatest and most heinous of all forces of darkness in the entire history of mankind. The lesser of the two lost. Fortunitely, I will add. In my view it is most unfortunite that both were not destroyed. Perhaps, the Nazis destroy the Bolsheviks; the Western Allies destroy the Nazis. Sigh, too bad it didn't go that way.
I would have been proud to lay my life on the line in battle against either or - preferably - both. I regret that I have but one life to give in the name of Human Liberty (to paraphrase Nathan Hale).
This, however, is not reality:
It is a game.
Pretend.
Fiction.
I play it because I am a serious student of the period and I enjoy playing that I am playing a role in the events that occured purely out of historical interest.
I also used to re-enact WWII. I played the bad guys: a panzergrenadier of the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend. I still have the uniforms (They were quite expensive). On my advice, when I was part of that unit, we expelled two newbies who had turned out to be actual, real-life Nazis and White Supremacists because we were, none of us, actual Nazis; just people with historical interests (Aside from the danger they represented to our hobby. Imagine what would have happened if a media order had discovered their presence in our ranks. All the re-enactors would have had to wear American or British uniforms and painted their helmets different colors to tell the good guys from the bad from then on out). We ... lost their phone numbers.
This is aside from the fact that the common soldiers - including officer grade pilots and even the Waffen-SS - did not participate commonly in the crimes of their regimes (German or Soviet), there were some but it was not common. Most would never have supported their regimes had they known what was really going on. Most of the military personnel on all sides were citizens doing their duty for their countries. Some of them had the bad luck to have been born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have been in battle. I have never cursed the enemy personell who killed my team leader or the Spec 4 from 2nd Squad who was killed later on, or wounded three other members of my platoon. They nearly killed me more than once. But, then, I know beyond doubt that I dropped at least three of them, probably more. They were doing their jobs for their country; I was doing mine for mine. It was just our mutual misfortune that we all found ourselves in a position where we had to shoot at each other. (This was not the Gulf War, it was a covert op. I was out of the active duty army by then. That is why I'm being completely unspecific about who those other guys were.)
Ultimately, it's just a game and nothing more. Don't read anymore into it than that. In the end it doesn't mean a thing, anyway, since it don't have that swing...

marcocomparato
01-22-2005, 08:51 PM
amazon link or the book doesnt exist.

fordfan25
01-23-2005, 01:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DL Moffet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krt_Bong:
I saw that this post was locked on the issue of shame in taking Axis or Allied and then I read this one posted Sat September 11 2004 06:06
The question is: do you think Chuck Yeager would like to take a ride in a Zero or a Me 262? Wink2

I say: yes. And would he like to test it in combat against the best the allied had without really hurting anyone?

Yes. Because I think he likes the aircraft.
-----------------------------------------------------
I went to an Airshow a few years ago and met R.A. "Bob" Hoover who had evidently had his ticket pulled because of his advanced age. I had asked him about Mustangs and Flight sims and other subjects that might pique his interest just to have a conversation with a man who is living history. He thought that some of the stuff (flight sims) was amazing and then he regailed me of a tale about when at the end of the war and he was in a POW camp outside a Luftwaffe base the advancing Allies had caused their captors to abandon their posts pretty much leaving them to walk right out of camp and onto the base whereupon he walked up to a 190 got in it and after a little quick study of the instruments started it up, took off and flew it back to friendly lines. He said that surprisingly he didn't encounter any friendlies or he surely would have been shot down but the experience was an exciting one for he had never flown the 190 before and it was "fun". We in the flight sim community and indeed the model community because there is some correllation between them wish to re-create or get a feel for what it was like to fly these planes regardless of whose policies they served. There are still those people out there who are offended by the display of the Swastika symbol on model aircraft because of what it represents regardless of the place that it serves in history( and incedently it's mirror image is an American Indian symbol for luck ironically) and I suppose that this is much the same as an image of the Twin Towers will be for my generation, or the Arizona for my Grandfather's. There is no shame in recreating the great Battles of history in their own context, wearing the appropriate markings as they were marked. No the shame is in forgetting that the prejudices or the politcal agendas of those who used those weapons or symbols is what we should never allow to pass from memory were the real threats not the symbols that they flew under, not the Swastika or the Messerschmitt, Not the Betty the Val or the Meatball painted on the side. It was Hitler and Hirohito it was Naziism and Fascism. Some people were actually saying after 9-11 that flight Sims should be pulled from shelves as if that could prevent another attack. Lets just remember what we are doing this for is still just entertainment not politics.
"They say the Human Race is falling on it's face and hasn't very far to go..." -Nellie Flatbush; Rodgers and Hammerstein's South Pacific <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Swastika, actually, is an inverted pramantha. It has been around for thousands of years, including in American Indian symbology. The primary difference between the Indian version and the European/Middle Eastern/Far Eastern version is that in Indian decorations it faced right or left pretty much at random. However, in Europe it always faced left. It has been found, for example, on a First Century A.D. Roman shield found in a basement in the Roman fortress at Dura Europus. Four of them on each corner of a decorative square around the boss plate, all facing left. Additionally, in a Late Imperial painting an infantryman is shown wearing a buff colored tunic with two pramanthas, one on the front of each thigh; both face left.
The Nazis adopted this insignia, but inverted it so that it faced right. When I use this symbol I always face it left as is traditional and an inversion of the NSDAP symbol.

And, on this topic specifically:
Politically I refer to myself as a Jeffersonian Liberal. This places me at diametric odds with Fascism.
Fascism is a Moderate Leftist Ideology.
Regulated Market Economics vs Statist Economics. Neither Capitalism nor Communism, but both together - to paraphrase Mussolini.
I believe in Free Market Economics.
Fascism, like other Leftist Ideoligies, believes in a strongly centralized state in one form or another where the state guides or dictates the affairs of the nation and its people.
I believe, as Jefferson, that "A government which governs least, governs best."
Now, I understand that there is a most potent desire on the part of the owners of this forum to avoid politics, which is well and good. Thus, I wish to clarify that I addressed the above only to place in perspective what I have to say on this subject. The above passes no judgements on anyone's politcal beliefs or ideology whatsoever, nor is intended to. It is merely a logical instuction on political and governmental thoughts and methods solely to place in perspective my own views.

That said:
I happily fly for the Luftwaffe.
Hitler slaughtered 10 million human beings.
I happily fly for the VVS.
Joseph Dzhugashvili (Stalin) slaughtered 20 to 30 million of his own people and is probably the most blood-thirsty tyrant ever known in human history.
Politically and Ideologically I am vehemently and assiduously opposed to either regime and their Economic and Governmental systems. In my view the war on the Eastern Front was a titanic struggle between the two greatest and most heinous of all forces of darkness in the entire history of mankind. The lesser of the two lost. Fortunitely, I will add. In my view it is most unfortunite that both were not destroyed. Perhaps, the Nazis destroy the Bolsheviks; the Western Allies destroy the Nazis. Sigh, too bad it didn't go that way.
I would have been proud to lay my life on the line in battle against either or - preferably - both. I regret that I have but one life to give in the name of Human Liberty (to paraphrase Nathan Hale).
This, however, is not reality:
It is a game.
Pretend.
Fiction.
I play it because I am a serious student of the period and I enjoy playing that I am playing a role in the events that occured purely out of historical interest.
I also used to re-enact WWII. I played the bad guys: a panzergrenadier of the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend. I still have the uniforms (They were quite expensive). On my advice, when I was part of that unit, we expelled two newbies who had turned out to be actual, real-life Nazis and White Supremacists because we were, none of us, actual Nazis; just people with historical interests (Aside from the danger they represented to our hobby. Imagine what would have happened if a media order had discovered their presence in our ranks. All the re-enactors would have had to wear American or British uniforms and painted their helmets different colors to tell the good guys from the bad from then on out). We ... lost their phone numbers.
This is aside from the fact that the common soldiers - including officer grade pilots and even the Waffen-SS - did not participate commonly in the crimes of their regimes (German or Soviet), there were some but it was not common. Most would never have supported their regimes had they known what was really going on. Most of the military personnel on all sides were citizens doing their duty for their countries. Some of them had the bad luck to have been born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have been in battle. I have never cursed the enemy personell who killed my team leader or the Spec 4 from 2nd Squad who was killed later on, or wounded three other members of my platoon. They nearly killed me more than once. But, then, I know beyond doubt that I dropped at least three of them, probably more. They were doing their jobs for their country; I was doing mine for mine. It was just our mutual misfortune that we all found ourselves in a position where we had to shoot at each other. (This was not the Gulf War, it was a covert op. I was out of the active duty army by then. That is why I'm being completely unspecific about who those other guys were.)
Ultimately, it's just a game and nothing more. Don't read anymore into it than that. In the end it doesn't mean a thing, anyway, since it don't have that swing... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif do you know what this means ...time traveling nazi's .

Spudinsky
01-23-2005, 08:50 AM
DL Moffet, I've been visiting these forums for the last few months, and your post is by far the most intelligent, informative and interesting of all those that I've read so far. Thanks.

VFA-195 Snacky
01-23-2005, 01:39 PM
Chuck Yeager flight tested a captured Mig15 in Korea. He wasn't impressed. lol

thjreggae
01-23-2005, 02:27 PM
A big thanks to both Fordfan and DLMoffet for a fascinating and thoroughly interesting insight into the military mind plus a historical insight. When all is said and done, PF is a flight simulation and a mighty fine one at that. I have no problems going onto a server to play Axis, if only to understand some of the tricks that the AI pull. Is there no-one out there that got a kick out of playing Nod against the GDI to see the vapour trails of the nuclear weapon in C&C? does that make me sick too? get a life all those critics and chill.

Krt_Bong
01-23-2005, 09:32 PM
There are some Adults paying attention after all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

MGBurrows
01-25-2005, 05:29 PM
Ensign Moffet wishes me to thank you on his behalf. He says he is appropriately humbled that someone actually liked one of his posts. He tried to respond himself but had a computer hitch. For some reason he could not activate the reply link - either with or without quotes. He suspects it is because he just installed a new and improved version of Norton Antivirus.
I quite liked Krt_Bong's post. Mr. Hoover indeed would have had quite a time had some victory-hungry allied fighter pilot spotted his 190. I am a little surprised that our own FLAK didn't shoot him out of the sky when they saw a 190 coming at their airfield. That's how Preddy got killed, basically. Except ... he was flying a P-51 at the time.

Krt_Bong
01-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Incidently I don't know the current status of either Mr. Hoover or his Flying license, he was a joy to talk to but looked very old, I twice got to see him fly; once with the North American Rockwell yellow P-51, and the Aero Commander that he would do deadstick loops in. I would much rather see him pass in his sleep than in front of a crowd of fans. S~!

lkemling
01-30-2005, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by marcocomparato:
amazon link or the book doesnt exist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure about a link but the name of the book is FOREVER FLYING

MGBurrows
01-31-2005, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krt_Bong:
Incidently I don't know the current status of either Mr. Hoover or his Flying license, he was a joy to talk to but looked very old, I twice got to see him fly; once with the North American Rockwell yellow P-51, and the Aero Commander that he would do deadstick loops in. I would much rather see him pass in his sleep than in front of a crowd of fans. S~! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's always quite something to be able to talk with a combat veteran. When I was reenacting we did a show battle at the Patton Memorial Museum at Chiriaco Summit. There were a number of WWII vets present and they seemed particularly interested in talking with us "SS" reenactors. One old gentleman was in a wheelchair missing both his legs. He had been a M4 Sherman commander in WWII and he had been standing up in the turret when his tank took a 75mm round from a Panther and went up. My lips quiver recounting this. He found himself on the ground when he came to short his legs but not his life. We had many good conversations that day.
I have used that man's story. A character in a story I am working on has a legless grandfather who had been a Sherman commander in WWII.

Bearcat99
01-31-2005, 07:30 PM
Anyone who equates plane preference in a flight sim 60 years after the end of the war with political ideology needs a reality check anyway... although I am sure that there are some Neo Nazis somewhere who like flight sims and prefer German AC it doesnt mean that every person who likes German AC is a Nazi sypathizer.... I like the 109s myself.