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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:50 AM
Hola,

I just read recently in this forum that the late Bf-109's were built with slave labor. Can someone elaborate on this? Which groups of people? How long? ect. Just curious.

Thanks,
Atticus.

"sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium suum unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non pereat sed habeat vitam aeternam"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:50 AM
Hola,

I just read recently in this forum that the late Bf-109's were built with slave labor. Can someone elaborate on this? Which groups of people? How long? ect. Just curious.

Thanks,
Atticus.

"sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium suum unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non pereat sed habeat vitam aeternam"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:58 AM
You have to ask?

Willey went to jail for a few years for using "slave labour" obtained from the 'camps'.


voxdei2 wrote:
- Hola,
-
- I just read recently in this forum that the late
- Bf-109's were built with slave labor. Can someone
- elaborate on this? Which groups of people? How long?
- ect. Just curious.
-



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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:11 AM
That is what I was assuming. I asked because, I read somewhere about people off of the streets and was wondering if they used native peoples for this as well!

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:13 AM
Natives as well.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:04 AM
Check out this site:

http://histclo.hispeed.com/essay/war/ww2/slave/ww2-gsl.html

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"Any information that we receive concerning the real world is carefully controlled"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:12 AM
BMW was no stranger to using slave labor:

http://www.earthstation1.com/HolocaustFiles/Pics/AllachBMWAircraftPlantUsingConcentrationCampLaborW WII.jpg


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sigstang.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:21 AM
Guess who else was benefiting from nazi slave labour?

http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.html

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"Any information that we receive concerning the real world is carefully controlled"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 08:47 AM
helgstrand wrote:
- Guess who else was benefiting from nazi slave
- labour?


ya theres a conspiracy around every corner, helgstrand


Many Many Many people benifited from the nazis including medical reserch.

im not saying its right

Im just saying

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1068129235.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:41 AM
AFJ_Locust wrote:
ya theres a conspiracy around every corner,
- helgstrand
-
Many Many Many people benifited from the nazis
- including medical reserch.
-
- im not saying its right
-
- Im just saying

Yeah I agree, the nazi conspiracy goes very deep,
Where did all the nazi scientists go?
Ever heard of the 4th reich?
Paul is dead
hitlers still alive

http://www.delphiassociates.org/conspiracy/hitler.html

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:53 AM
Germany was reliant on slave labour during the war. The economy would have collapsed way before the war's actual end without it.



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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:56 AM
... where did all the Nazi scientists go ...?

After the war there was a HUGE self-service scientist buffet for the Allies - Wernher von Braun and Coworkers were taken to US and noone really cared about von Brauns involvement in building V2-Rockets (est. 30.000 slave workers killed in the programme) because he was valuable in Cold War times. The russians did the same ... Aircraft designers went to Argentina, because Peron always had sympathies for Nazis ...

In the case of the German rocket scientists this is one big hypocrisy IMHO ...

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:19 PM
...Where did all the nazi scientists go?

Here's some of them:

http://www.whale.to/v/nazi.html

http://www.ftrbooks.net/psych/nazi/project_paperclip_2.htm

http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~wmwines/WASP/essays/nazi.html

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:24 PM
Well, seeing that photo brings a jolt of cold reality to this sim..........

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:28 PM
I am so glad the Mustang is here now!! I just can't bring myself to fly the Bf-109 anymore. I don't trust her beneath me because she might fall apart in mid-air! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Goodness knows that I would make the thing so that it would fall apart if I was being forced to build them against my will. Torn from my family and starved to do this.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:34 PM
Better to be slave labour than die in prison camp


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"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:43 PM
DKP said:
"Better to be slave labour than die in prison camp"

The people used for slave labour where prisoners, look at the BMW picture. If they didn't or couldn't work they were killed.

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(edited: forgot to add the DKP daid bit)

Message Edited on 11/07/0303:45AM by helgstrand

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 12:48 PM
I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm just saying they were fed better and treated better. Many POWs were sent to camps where they died of starvation. Soviets also treated POWs just as bad.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:03 PM
Slave Labourer:
...OSI Director Eli M. Rosenbaum said that the prisoners at the SS camps at Trawniki and Poniatowa were slave laborers who were forced to live under horribly inhumane conditions.

"Prisoners were given starvation rations, and brutal beatings were a daily occurrence," Rosenbaum said. "The Third Reich permitted these people to live only so long as they could work. Once the Nazis decided that the prisoners were no longer useful, they moved swiftly to liquidate both camps. In November 1943, SS and German police personnel forced the prisoners at the two camps to dig their own graves and then murdered them en masse by gunfire."


POW:
...Once at their permanent Stalags, the P.O.W.s' chief complaint was the lack of food. Their diet largely consisted of potatoes and moldy bread at least partially made from sawdust. Watery soup made with carrots or turnips was another staple. In the fall of 1944, as Germany's resources ran low, the P.O.W. rations were reduced, and the Kriegies were largely dependent on the supplementary rations in their Red Cross aid packages.
Still, with the help of the Red Cross and the YMCA, the American prisoners found ways to take their minds off the hunger. Many Stalags allowed their prisoners to play sports like golf, football, basketball, tennis, and baseball. Cards were popular. Many Stalags had camp newspapers created by the prisoners. Some camps put on musical or dramatic productions, and at Stalag II-B 1,500 prisoners were once escorted to the movies. Sending and receiving mail was perhaps the most important activity to the Kriegies.

Most agree that officers and airmen received preferential treatment over enlisted soldiers. And while there were numerous P.O.W.s who recounted tales of abuse at the hands of their German captors, most American P.O.W.s also felt that at their respective Stalags the Nazis, for the most part, abided by the rules of the Geneva Convention.

Hmmmm, which would you choose?

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Message Edited on 11/07/0304:21AM by helgstrand

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:14 PM
Now where is Isegrim in this thread, for he always came down hard on me for saying "slave labour". Maybe he does not like the truth.


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:21 PM
Anyway this is a bad thread. We should remind ourselves that all of our countries have comited horrible attrocities not just Germany and Russia. USA, UK, etc etc


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AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:31 PM
DKP wrote:
- Anyway this is a bad thread. We should remind
- ourselves that all of our countries have comited
- horrible attrocities not just Germany and Russia.
- USA, UK, etc etc

_I agree, all governments of all countries of all times have, do, and will cause horrible attrocities. Government is government no matter what it's calling itself this week.
People are not the enemy, government is. Nationalism creates hate and enemys.
Anyway this is not realy the forum for this kind of discusion, can of bad worms.
Rant rant rant....
lock lock lock....

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:33 PM
DKP wrote:
- Anyway this is a bad thread. We should remind
- ourselves that all of our countries have comited
- horrible attrocities not just Germany and Russia.
- USA, UK, etc etc
-
-

But not on the scale Germany did and not during 1935 to 1945, except for the Soviets(internally) and the Japanese in China.

If the British strikers had been in Germany, they would have been executed.


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:03 PM
I may add that some of the nazis experimentations about brainwashing and torture... were continued during operation artichoice, which is thought could be linked to Prof Olson's death/murder.

Nic

Zayets
11-07-2003, 02:12 PM
I don't understand the term "nazi scientist".
What does it means? A scientist with nazi sympathies? A scientist who worked for nazis forced? A scientist who worked for nazis because he believed in the cause?
Please someone elaborate on this? Does exist a term "nazi worker",or "nazi cake",or "nazi computer"?

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:17 PM
DKP, why do you have that stupid Kafer as sig?

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:45 PM
Clearly, slave labor lost the war.

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:51 PM
According the Olaf Groehler, the Messerscmitt company used around 5000 internated, "slave labourer", and volunteered foreign labour in October 1944.

Total number of workers employed by Messerscmitt at that time was 14 273 in the factories, and further 19 177 in the dispersed shadow factories, for a total of 33 450. Non German (inc. foreign "Gastarbeiters" and real slave labourers) accounted for about 15% of the total workforce, doing largely simpliest manual labour.

The slave labourers took heavy deathtoll due to the poor conditions and cruealty of the guards, but also because of Allied bombings which caught them in the barracks built in open grounds... or example, it is known that a single British raid on Peenemunde rocket development station on 17/18th August 1943 killed 557 prisoners alone.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 02:53 PM
can we say off topic this should go with the dont call me a jap post

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:05 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:

-
- The slave labourers took heavy deathtoll due to the
- poor conditions and cruealty of the guards, but also
- because of Allied bombings which caught them in the
- barracks built in open grounds... or example, it is
- known that a single British raid on Peenemunde
- rocket development station on 17/18th August 1943
- killed 557 prisoners alone.
-
-

But Ise, they would not have been killed in Allied bomb attacks if the Germans had not been using them as "slave labour"./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:09 PM
MiloMorai wrote:

-
- But Ise, they would not have been killed in Allied
- bomb attacks if the Germans had not been using them
- as "slave labour".
-

They would neither be killed by British bombing if Britain doesn`t declare war on Germany either.

Still, the fact remains that Allied bombing is the direct cause of the death of tenthousends labourers, not just the conditions of the camp.




Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:15 PM
The direct cause of their deaths is tha fact that they were taken as slaves in the first place.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:16 PM
I've read recently some interesting stuff about slave labour utilized by the nazi. It's an autobiographic story written by an italo-french guy, called Cavanna (french users here surely knows him!), titled "Les Russkoffs".
(Russkoff is the nickname that french give to russians).

Briefly, this books tells how this guy was forced to go to work as a slave in an ammunition plant near Berlin in '43, until the end of the war, like many French civilians were. Here he meets a lot of russians prisoners, falls in love with a russian girl (also prisoner) and the story goes on until the Red Army liberates them... and I'm not going to tell the end!

Anyway, on the very first page of this book, it starts describing how he built shells for the german artillery on the russian front.
They were made of BAKELITE and some recycled metal fragments(probably rusted iron) melted and mixed together, then covered with a thin metallic layer just to give them the good look. While doing this, he was thinking how russian soldier would laugh when bombed with those plastic bullets.

That tells you a lot about the quality of some german stuff during late war...


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Message Edited on 11/07/0303:31PM by Cippacometa

Zayets
11-07-2003, 03:17 PM
Make it stop.I smell flames...

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:21 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
-
- Anyway, on the very first page of this book, it
- starts describing how he built shells for the german
- artillery on the russian front.
- They were made of BAKELITE and some recycled metal
- fragments(probably rusted iron) melted and mixed
- together, then covered with a thin metallic layer
- just to give them the good look. While doing this,
- he was thinking how russian soldier would laugh when
- bombed with those plastic bullets.


IMHO he was building landmines then, there were some types of German landmines made of bakelite, or other non-metallic material, to make them undetectable for mine detector equipment.

It can`t be arty shells, such shell you desribe would simply fall off in the barrel of the gun, forces are huge.. perhaps rocket shells ?



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:21 PM
LOL Ise, you logic is totally illogical./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif If the aggressive war mongering Germany had not attacked Poland then France and the UK would not have declared war on Germany.


Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-

-
- They would neither be killed by British bombing if
- Britain doesn`t declare war on Germany either.
-
- Still, the fact remains that Allied bombing is the
- direct cause of the death of tenthousends labourers,
- not just the conditions of the camp.
-
-

No indirect, because if the Germans had not put "slave labour" in those locals they would not have died, at least not by bombs.



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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:27 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- LOL Ise, you logic is totally illogical. If the
- aggressive war mongering Germany had not attacked Poland
- then France and the UK would not have declared war on
- Germany.

Errrrr what? UK didn't declare war after Germany invaded France. UK and France (and Australia and NZ) declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland duh!

Nic

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:27 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- LOL Ise, you logic is totally illogical.

Why are you using words of which you don`t even know what they mean ?


- If the aggressive war
- mongering Germany had not attacked Poland then
- France and the UK would not have declared war on
- Germany.

France and the UK didn`t attacked Germany because of Poland, but because they were afraid of growing German power in Europe. Speaking of slaves, Britain was the world`s biggest slaver at that time, living on the blood of it`s conquered colonies in India, Africa, Boerland, etc. robbing them from their riches and raw materials. The British were afraid that they were going to loose this easy life, just like in WW1. Luckily, WW2 broke their back and those hundreds of millions become free nations of their own.

The Soviet Union also attacked Poland, still, for some odd reason, France and the UK did not attack it after that. Even if the USSR was Germany`s ally at that time.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:31 PM
Learn to read Nic > then France and the UK would not have declared war on Germany.


nicolas10 wrote:
-
-
- Errrrr what? UK didn't declare war after Germany
- invaded France. UK and France (and Australia and NZ)
- declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland
- duh!
-


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:34 PM
Oops sorry I did misread you indeed.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:40 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- The Soviet Union also attacked Poland, still, for
- some odd reason, France and the UK did not attack it
- after that. Even if the USSR was Germany`s ally at
- that time.

Sure because UK wanted a war between Germany and USSR. UK diplomacy was very active in the '30 to lure USSR to make teritorial claims in Eastern Europe. UK would have been very happy to see Romania transformed in a soviet republic for example. British diplomacy was as guilty for the Eastern Europe countries situation at the beginning of ww2 as any other major power.

But I'm sure this is not what you read in your school textbook Milo.


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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:42 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
- IMHO he was building landmines then, there were some
- types of German landmines made of bakelite, or other
- non-metallic material, to make them undetectable for
- mine detector equipment.
-
- It can`t be arty shells, such shell you desribe
- would simply fall off in the barrel of the gun,
- forces are huge.. perhaps rocket shells ?

I won't call landmines some ogive-shaped stuff to be fit on cartridges and sent to artillery...
Anyway, a shell made by a bakelite-iron core covered in metal, IMO, it's enough hard to go out from a barrel without being desintegrated... but it would be quite uneffective.
Again, just to stuck on the topic, that tells a lot, not only on the quality of late-war german material, but also on the results of slave/forced labour and on the integrity of some german entrepreneurs....


<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg </center>

Zayets
11-07-2003, 03:58 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
UK would have been very happy to see Romania
- transformed in a soviet republic for example.
- British diplomacy was as guilty for the Eastern
- Europe countries situation at the beginning of ww2
- as any other major power.

Oh,but they managed that after Yalta when the 3 ones split the world.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:01 PM
Cippacometa wrote:

- Again, just to stuck on the topic, that tells a lot,
- not only on the quality of late-war german material,
- but also on the results of slave/forced labour and
- on the integrity of some german entrepreneurs....


i call it a true wonder , how fought the german army so many battles with such an poor material , and still won some battles ?
did the italian forces using slave made weapon/ammo too ?




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Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:03 PM
Zayets wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
- UK would have been very happy to see Romania
-
-- transformed in a soviet republic for example.
-- British diplomacy was as guilty for the Eastern
-- Europe countries situation at the beginning of ww2
-- as any other major power.
-
- Oh,but they managed that after Yalta when the 3
- ones split the world.


Hi Zayets, have you read Florin Constantiniu's book on the matter? It gives an excellent insight on british policy for our region. I shuddered in disgust.


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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:05 PM
i am left speechless- simply empty- may you never know to feel those things-nightmares-this is not the place for those things- there are other forums for politic things-you forget where you are,i think sometimes- many people treated that way- very many sad things there- so much lost because of things like that- so much nonsense-

when you say was good thing- i hear the ghosts cry- go visit those places and see for yourself-
Zyzbot wrote:
- The direct cause of their deaths is tha fact that
- they were taken as slaves in the first place.
-
-
-
-
-

Zayets
11-07-2003, 04:10 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- Hi Zayets, have you read Florin Constantiniu's book
- on the matter? It gives an excellent insight on
- british policy for our region. I shuddered in
- disgust.

No , I didn't , but I read some other stories/books which were as well very disgusting. Romania was the only stronghold against communism/bolshevism in the region until 1944. I was always thinking what would happen if Germany stopped the war on the west and fighting only on east,that could give some interesting results.But after all , was Germany and USSR who messed up every damn thing in the Eastern Europe. And you know what is the funniest thing? NOTHING changed even today regarding those policies.Sad,but true.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:21 PM
AFJ_Locust wrote:

- Many Many Many people benifited from the nazis
- including medical reserch.
-
- im not saying its right
-
- Im just saying
-

Well imagine if your family were involved in the experiments. Then you might not even have considered saying that.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:22 PM
well you certainly learn a few things here.

For years, I had laboured under the misapprehension that the principal aggressor behind the war was Hitler, when it was in fact the British all along, quietly stoking the flames of war behind the scenes. Whoever would have thought.

Hey guys write a book, I think you have a stunning new insight there. You could call it "It was the British, they made me do it" what the Nazis meant when they said by I was only following orders." Have the voices told you anything else interesting lately?

I'd puke if that wasn't so effing funny.


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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:32 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- well you certainly learn a few things here.
-
- For years, I had laboured under the misapprehension
- that the principal aggressor behind the war was
- Hitler, when it was in fact the British all along,
- quietly stoking the flames of war behind the scenes.
- Whoever would have thought.
-
- Hey guys write a book, I think you have a stunning
- new insight there. You could call it "It was the
- British, they made me do it" what the Nazis meant
- when they said by I was only following orders." Have
- the voices told you anything else interesting
- lately?
-
- I'd puke if that wasn't so effing funny.
-

and they probably think the Holocaust never happened as well. Sickos....

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:35 PM
Boandlgramer wrote:
-
- i call it a true wonder , how fought the german
- army so many battles with such an poor material ,
- and still won some battles ?

But they lost the war, didn't they?!

- did the italian forces using slave made weapon/ammo
- too ?

Besides Daimler-Benz engines installed on series 2 and 5 fighters (those not built under license by Alfa-Romeo), I don't know... maybe you can tell?


<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:42 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- well you certainly learn a few things here.

- when it was in fact the British all along,
- quietly stoking the flames of war behind the scenes.
- Whoever would have thought.


Do you have an idea how many have died in communist slavery as a direct result of british policies?
The british sold half of Europe to USSR, is this the first time you heard about it?


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:53 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
-
- Boandlgramer wrote:
--
-- i call it a true wonder , how fought the german
-- army so many battles with such an poor material ,
-- and still won some battles ?

--But they lost the war, didn't they?!


how many battles won the italian army ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


-- did the italian forces using slave made weapon/ammo
-- too ?
-
- Besides Daimler-Benz engines installed on series 2
- and 5 fighters (those not built under license by
- Alfa-Romeo), I don't know... maybe you can tell?


no i can´t .


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:08 PM
Boandlgramer wrote:
- how many battles won the italian army ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-

Not so many, of course!
Except some rare cases, italians were crappily equipped, badly commanded, not well trained and often not motivated.

For example, infantry (Alpini) went to fight in URSS with some mild-climate equipment. Many of those poor guys just died of cold!

And those are NOT good reasons to not have yet a flyable italian a/c in FB!!! http://forums.ubi.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif


<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:21 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- bazzaah2 wrote:
-- well you certainly learn a few things here.
-
-- when it was in fact the British all along,
-- quietly stoking the flames of war behind the scenes.
-- Whoever would have thought.
-
-
- Do you have an idea how many have died in communist
- slavery as a direct result of british policies?

I would say none, zero, zilch as a direct result of British policies in Europe. Prove me wrong, please do, but cite examples and demonstrate how your point is directly attributable to the British.

- The british sold half of Europe to USSR, is this the
first time you heard about it?

Don't be so disingenuous.

- <center> <img
- src="http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-m
- ain.jpg"> </center>



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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:34 PM
Cippacometa wrote:

- And those are NOT good reasons to not have yet a
- flyable italian a/c in FB!!!

we will see these, be sure. my glassball has told me that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:38 PM
Boandlgramer wrote:
-
- Cippacometa wrote:
-
-- And those are NOT good reasons to not have yet a
-- flyable italian a/c in FB!!!
-
- we will see these, be sure. my glassball has told
- me that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-

hope so... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:59 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- The british sold half of Europe to USSR, is this the
- first time you heard about it?
-
-
- Don't be so disingenuous.
-


..... I agree. I'd very much like to hear a defence of the above claim by Huckebein. The half of Europe which he is discussing was politically created after WW1, essentially by Great Britain and France. Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were all offspring of Versailles.

If Huckebein's argument is that this post-WW1 dismantlement of Germany and Austria-Hungary left central Europe vulnerable to a Soviet takeover thirty years later, methinks such a connection belongs more in the realm of unintended consequence than of malintent.

If Huckebein is talking about the post-WW2 absorption of Eastern Europe into the Soviet Bloc, I disagree entirely. Roosevelt was the responsible party in this case. Churchill was by no means enthusiastic about the post-war sphere of influence concessions made by Roosevelt to the Soviets.

If Huckebein refers to some inter-war British geopolitical machinations, they are unknown to me. I'd be interested to hear more about them. The only British sell-out I can think of would be Chamberlain's surrender of Czechoslovakia to the Germans.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:20 PM
we owe alot to those german scientists and those poor ppl they experimented on /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
ive heard some real nasty stuff they did to em, freezeing ppl alive etc.
i dunno for sure, but i bet some of the slave labours wherent bothered they where killed by allied bombs, at least they couldnt be forced to help there enemy then.
i think it was a sacrifice that hadto be made /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:21 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

-
- Do you have an idea how many have died in communist
- slavery as a direct result of british policies?
- The british sold half of Europe to USSR, is this the
- first time you heard about it?
-

lol, how many died in NAZI concentration camps? Didnt Britain intervene in the Russian civil war? You are talking crap.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:34 PM
p1ngu666 wrote:
- we owe alot to those german scientists and those
- poor ppl they experimented on /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
- ive heard some real nasty stuff they did to em,
- freezeing ppl alive etc.
- i dunno for sure, but i bet some of the slave
- labours wherent bothered they where killed by allied
- bombs, at least they couldnt be forced to help there
- enemy then.
- i think it was a sacrifice that hadto be made /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
-
-
The seminal scientific research into the effects of hypothermia was conducted by wartime German scientists upon "expendable" human concentration camp subjects. Their work still forms the basic underpinnings of research in this area.

It is a sad and ironic thing.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:37 PM
What a bizarre discussion!

What is going on?

Lets consider some options:

1) Certain posters are deliberately trolling via unsubstantiated and inflammatory responses.

2) Certain posters are oblivious to the aggressor(s) that iniatiated WW2, and the political background that allowed them into postions of power.

3) Certain posters are unable to palate certain uncomfortable truths about the most appalling conflict ever fought, and seek to explain away the blame for what happened.


No nation involved in WW2 emerged with 100% clean hands- it was total war waged on an unprecidented scale, where the very society of each combatant was a legitimate target. However, there is no arguement as to who started the war and the illegality of those actions according to interntional law.



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

Message Edited on 11/07/0305:39PM by NegativeGee

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:38 PM
yeah /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
surpose u could say they coulda just gone to russia with there troops, and watch them freeze /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 08:06 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

Do you have an idea how many have died in communist
- slavery as a direct result of british policies?
- The british sold half of Europe to USSR, is this the
- first time you heard about it?


A. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

B. It sounds like you think the Brits are as guilty as Hitler. --Yet I know before you ahve said you despised Hitler. Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.

c. Please do not assume that all of us are ignorant of other evils & misguided policies in the history of Europe (or the world for that matter.)



Peace!

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 08:36 PM
So the bottom line is yes the Bf-109 was built with slave labor. No frills....no fingerpointing...it was a fact. It is also 60 years in the past so lets not take any of this personal or make it bigger than it needs to be. It is HISTORY. As far as I know the only nation practicing outright slave labor today (that is if you discount the prison labor system with it's "inmate" workers in various countries) is Sudan. God knows there is enough blame to go around the globe...in the past century alone...let alone the past 2000 years.... or 5000 for that matter.

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 08:47 PM
helgstrand wrote:
- Slave Labourer:
- ...OSI Director Eli M. Rosenbaum said that the
- prisoners at the SS camps at Trawniki and Poniatowa
- were slave laborers who were forced to live under
- horribly inhumane conditions.
-
- "Prisoners were given starvation rations, and brutal
- beatings were a daily occurrence," Rosenbaum said.
- "The Third Reich permitted these people to live only
- so long as they could work. Once the Nazis decided
- that the prisoners were no longer useful, they moved
- swiftly to liquidate both camps. In November 1943,
- SS and German police personnel forced the prisoners
- at the two camps to dig their own graves and then
- murdered them en masse by gunfire."
-
-
- POW:
- ...Once at their permanent Stalags, the P.O.W.s'
- chief complaint was the lack of food. Their diet
- largely consisted of potatoes and moldy bread at
- least partially made from sawdust. Watery soup made
- with carrots or turnips was another staple. In the
- fall of 1944, as Germany's resources ran low, the
- P.O.W. rations were reduced, and the Kriegies were
- largely dependent on the supplementary rations in
- their Red Cross aid packages.
- Still, with the help of the Red Cross and the YMCA,
- the American prisoners found ways to take their
- minds off the hunger. Many Stalags allowed their
- prisoners to play sports like golf, football,
- basketball, tennis, and baseball. Cards were
- popular. Many Stalags had camp newspapers created by
- the prisoners. Some camps put on musical or dramatic
- productions, and at Stalag II-B 1,500 prisoners were
- once escorted to the movies. Sending and receiving
- mail was perhaps the most important activity to the
- Kriegies.
-
- Most agree that officers and airmen received
- preferential treatment over enlisted soldiers. And
- while there were numerous P.O.W.s who recounted
- tales of abuse at the hands of their German captors,
- most American P.O.W.s also felt that at their
- respective Stalags the Nazis, for the most part,
- abided by the rules of the Geneva Convention.
-
- Hmmmm, which would you choose?

Also in contrast to thier american counter parts...the german POW's inside the US were trated like roylty. While there was widespread rationing of food the german pow's were not subjected to this. they were even given an allowance of 1 beer per man per day. they actually formed drinking parties & in some situations 1 man could have 6 beers per day. Latter near the end of the war german pow's were made to work in the feilds & as labor...but were paid 10 cents an hour. not exaclty slave wadges in those days. since a nickle could buy a coke back then.

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 08:50 PM
Yeah,
I didn't think this was going to be such a long thread. Just wanted a link or two to read about it. Very sad, very sad. I don't know if I can fly the BF109 anymore. It might fall apart in mid air./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I can't blame them. If I was being forced to make the thing, I would sabotage the brick as well. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Thank you .


Atticus.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 08:56 PM
Good point bearcat you wrote "As far as I know the
- only nation practicing outright slave labor today
- (that is if you discount the prison labor system
- with it's "inmate" workers in various countries) is
- Sudan." We are spending billions on Iraq and Sudan is the place the US should send the 3rd Infantry (Mech) and bring down that government. That sadly will never happen. A friend of mine at Church spends several months a year in the Sudan. He buys slaves and takes them into the Southern part of the country (Sudan is in civil war) and gives them their freedom.The stories he tells of what is going on in Sudan sound like Nazi Germany 1939 to 1945. Many in Congress and sadly the White House are constantly being paid off by the oil companies "in donations" to keep the US from doing such a thing. (Sudan is oil rich) Many evangelical Churches are putting pressure on the White house and Congress to do something about Sudan and the anti-Christian Genocide in South Sudan of the Arab Sudanese government but we are largely being ignored.

System Specs
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DSL Linksys Router
Antec Sonata Case Antec 380 watt PS

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:09 PM
Salute Isegrim

Such concern for the poor slave labourers wrested from their happy existence building Messerschmidts, killed by those horrible Allies in their terror bombing raids...

I'm so glad you brought that to our attention. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now, since you are so knowledgeable about the subject, perhaps you'd like to provide the figures for how many died of starvation or murder while toiling happily in the service of Messerschmidt...

Rather than trying to deflect the blame elsewhere.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:23 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- So the bottom line is yes the Bf-109 was built with
- slave labor. No frills....no fingerpointing...it was
- a fact. It is also 60 years in the past so lets not
- take any of this personal or make it bigger than it
- needs to be. It is HISTORY. As far as I know the
- only nation practicing outright slave labor today
- (that is if you discount the prison labor system
- with it's "inmate" workers in various countries) is
- Sudan. God knows there is enough blame to go around
- the globe...in the past century alone...let alone
- the past 2000 years.... or 5000 for that matter.
-

Pretty smart guy that Bearcat.

S!

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:28 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
-
-
- Also in contrast to thier american counter
- parts...the german POW's inside the US were trated
- like roylty. While there was widespread rationing of
- food the german pow's were not subjected to this.
- they were even given an allowance of 1 beer per man
- per day. they actually formed drinking parties & in
- some situations 1 man could have 6 beers per day.
- Latter near the end of the war german pow's were
- made to work in the feilds & as labor...but were
- paid 10 cents an hour. not exaclty slave wadges in
- those days. since a nickle could buy a coke back
- then.
-

That might be true for POWs in the USA, Canada and the UK but at the end of the war German POWs in NW Europe did not have it so good. They were 'housed' in very make shift camps that lacked even the basic neccessities and food. But then what do you do deluged with several million POWs?


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:32 PM
Not that im making excuses for the Nazi`s but the British invented concentration camps. During the Boer war in South africa 26,000 women and children died in these camps(1899-1902) and the british wern`t even trying. Makes you wonder where Hitler got the idea from.....

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/291003-01anoseart_us_08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:36 PM
Yes but there was a distinction. The Brits did not gather the people together to exterminate them like the Nazis did. It was also a British women who went to the camps and reported back the conditions. The conditions then improved in the camps. I believe the Boers erected a statue of her.


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:39 PM
Salute

What Huckbein and Isegrim are putting forward is what intellectuals term "historical revisionism".

It is a commonly used method of taking the facts of history, and twisting them, to move blame away from the guilty parties and put it on the victims of those who were really responsible.

Hitler and the Nazis used the method to convince the German public that Germany had not lost WWI, but in fact had been "...Stabbed in the back by Jews and Bolsheviks".

Stalin used it to blame all the woes of the post revolutionary Soviet Union on Trotsky and "Counter Revolutionaries", and he used it as an excuse to kill millions either in purges or through imposed famine.

For those who want to examine the real, most telling realities of WWII, here are some figures on deaths during WWII:



Allied Nations


Country--------Military--------Civilian---------Total


Soviet Union---8,668,000-------16,900,000-------25,568,000

Poland-----------850,000--------6,000,000--------6,850,000

Yugoslavia-------300,000--------1,400,000--------1,700,000

France-----------340,000----------470,000----------810,000

Greece---------------------------------------------520,000

Czechoslovakia-------------------------------------400,000

Great Britain----326,000-----------62,000----------388,000

USA--------------295,000---------------------------295,000

Holland-----------14,000----------236,000----------250,000

Belgium-----------10,000-----------75,000-----------85,000

Canada------------42,000----------------------------42,000

India-------------36,000----------------------------36,000

Australia---------29,000----------------------------29,000

New Zealand-------12,000----------------------------12,000

South Africa-------9,000-----------------------------9,000

Norway-------------5,000-----------------------------5,000

Denmark------------4,000-----------------------------4,000


Total---------10,940,000-------25,143,000-------36,083,000


Civilian Casualties in occupied countries came mainly from Nazi Jewish Extermination programs as well as the exportation of Civilians to Germany for Slave Labour. In the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, besides the killing of Jews, a very large number of Civilian casualties came from so called "Anti Partisan" Operations conducted in German occupied territory. In all countries which were occupied by the Germans at the start of the War, Civilian casualties exceeded Military. Of the Soviet Union's Military deaths, nearly 6 million were Prisoners of War who were either executed by the Germans after capture, or who died of starvation or disease while in Prisoner of War camps or Slave Labour Factories. You may note the high French Military casualties. Many of those 'Military' deaths were French prisoners of war who were working as Slave labourers. The same would go for many of the Polish 'Military' deaths.



Axis Nations


Country---------Military--------Civilian---------Total


Germany--------3,250,000--------3,810,000*-------7,060,000

Rumania----------520,000----------465,000*---------985,000

Hungary--------------------------------------------750,000*

Austria----------380,000----------145,000*---------525,000

Italy------------330,000-----------80,000*---------410,000

Finland-----------79,000----------------------------79,000

Bulgaria----------19,000-----------16,000*----------21,000


Total----------4,578,000--------4,516,000*-------9,094,000


* Figures for German and other Axis nation Civilian deaths include Jews killed by Nazi Extermination Programs, as well as other opponents of the Nazi regime. Most other non Jewish German Civilian casualties were caused by Allied Bombing.


Holocaust Deaths


Number of Jews killed by Nazi Extermination Programs in WWII


Poland 3,000,000

Soviet Union 1,252,000

Baltic countries 228,000

Germany/Austria 210,000

Czech Protectorate 80,000

Slovakia 75,000

Greece 54,000

The Netherlands 105,000

Hungary 450,000

Belgium 40,000

Yugoslavia 26,000

Romania 300,000

Norway 900

France 90,000

Bulgaria 14,000

Italy 8,000

Luxembourg 1,000


TOTAL 5,933,900



Spain had volunteers on both sides. Civilian casualties are from Concentration camps.

Spain-------------12,000-----------10,000-----------22,000



Nations which exclusively participated in Pacific War


China----------1,324,000-------10,000,000*------11,324,000

Japan----------1,506,000----------300,000--------1,806,000

*estimated


Sources:

Alan Bullock - "Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives"

The Times Atlas of the Second World War

Richard Overy - "Russia's War"


Dawidowicz, "The War Against the Jews"

Hilberg, "The Destruction of the European Jews"










Message Edited on 11/07/03 08:48PM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

Message Edited on 11/07/0309:21PM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:54 PM
Buzzsaw, why don't you list together with the deaths in Holocaust the deaths in communists prisons, to get a clear picture what your country helped built.

US and UK were allies of USSR, they supported and justified a savage dictatorship, helped it built its domination in Eastern Europe, pushing those small countries back a hundred years in development.

I see you are completely unable to see the guilt of the western governments, but in 10-15 years the victims of communism and their relatives will make their voice heard. Churchill and Roosvelt were war criminals and will be as despised as Hitler and Stalin.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:10 PM
Huckbein

I'm still waiting for you to prove exactly how Britain is responsible for communism and the war.

Looking forward to your level headed analysis!



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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:30 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Buzzsaw, why don't you list together with the deaths
- in Holocaust the deaths in communists prisons, to
- get a clear picture what your country helped built.
-
- US and UK were allies of USSR, they supported and
- justified a savage dictatorship, helped it built its
- domination in Eastern Europe, pushing those small
- countries back a hundred years in development.
-
- I see you are completely unable to see the guilt of
- the western governments, but in 10-15 years the
- victims of communism and their relatives will make
- their voice heard. Churchill and Roosvelt were war
- criminals and will be as despised as Hitler and
- Stalin.
-
-
Instead of carping about the "deal with the devil" that Roosevelt and Churchill made, could you for a moment consider what the realistic alternatives were? The Red Army vastly outnumbered the rest of the Allied forces on the continent in May 1945, the atomic bomb was still over the horizon (and only two would be available for some time)and there was still the Japanese to be dealt with.

Even assuming that they would have risked going straight to WWIII, just where do you suppose the battlefields of that war would be? The smaller nations whose suffering you are so concerned about would have been destroyed rather than being put back 100 years in development, trampled like so much grass under a couple of fighting elephants. Maybe FDR and Churchill did what they could with what they had.

It wasn't perfect, and I agree that it was not a good deal for the people caught in Central/Eastern Europe, but I doubt that any of us could have done better, even with the benefit of sixty years' hindsight.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

Zayets
11-07-2003, 10:46 PM
Sadly,there's almost no nation involved in the WW2 that didn't contribute to the holocaust.And I include here not only the Jews.They took indeed the most loses,there's no doubt that EVERY Jew was a target in WW2.May God rest their souls.The same for every other nation/ethnic suffering from the holocaust.The Nazis and the Communists were the plague of the 20th century.If for the Nazis there's already a law condemning it , we still wait for the law saying that Communism was the same.Things are starting to move in this direction anyway.Both Nazis and Communists must be punished.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 11:35 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Buzzsaw, why don't you list together with the deaths
- in Holocaust the deaths in communists prisons, to
- get a clear picture what your country helped built.
-
- US and UK were allies of USSR, they supported and
- justified a savage dictatorship, helped it built its
- domination in Eastern Europe, pushing those small
- countries back a hundred years in development.
-
- I see you are completely unable to see the guilt of
- the western governments, but in 10-15 years the
- victims of communism and their relatives will make
- their voice heard. Churchill and Roosvelt were war
- criminals and will be as despised as Hitler and
- Stalin.

Perhaps UK/USA should have left Germany alone so it could peacefully enslave the smaller eastern nations and pursue its genocidal war against more 'slavic' countries unmolested?
I note that Isegrim and Huckebein hail from the less slavic countries in eastern europe (Hungary and Romania respectively).
Could it be that the old racism of central europe still exists? Russia=slavic=bad (untermenschen); Germany=teutonic=good (never mind the nazism).
Your bitterness at having to live under communism for so long is leading you to look for scapegoats. It can't have been the fault of those misunderstood Germans can it? They led the fight against Russia- if those blasted Brits hadn't meddled in Germany's masterplan Russia could have been smashed and your countries would have enjoyed 60 years of freedom as Germany's favoured satellite nations. After all, your boys fought with the Germans on the eastern front didn't they?
The Jews? Who cares about them?
Yes, let's blame the British for the war and our countries' subsequent capture by the Russians.

I have news for you- the godless death cult which ruled Germany from 1933- 1945 was so outrageously offensive to all civilised minds that almost any means of defeating it was justified (I'm tempted to post a picture of a corpse- mountain found at Belsen, but that would get me banned). If that meant that some countries in eastern europe got invaded by the Soviets so be it. It was the price that had to be paid- but British diplomats would not have been proud of that outcome.

You guys will have to get over this. We're all building a golden european future together in the EU- or hasn't anyone told you?
The subsidies which will be pumped into eastern european countries over the next few decades will come mostly from Germany and the UK- as the world's third and fourth largest economies respectively (nothing from Russia). Whatever hurts you feel you've suffered, remember that.

For your information, Britain owes you nothing. British foreign policy is determined by what is in the British interest. Always was, always will be (EU notwithstanding). However, if you truly believe Britain sold your country into slavery I think you are ascribing a great deal more influence to British diplomacy than was ever the case. With Russian tanks all over eastern europe it was never remotely possible that UK/USA would fight Stalin in 1946.
Besides which, Britain was bankrupt by then. Its entire economy had been channelled into the production of non- wealth making war materials and the USA had charged high levels of interest on the lend- lease equipment which it supplied (even today part of the British national debt represents money owed to the USA as a result of the wartime deals).
However, it had been British foreign policy to get America to join the war on our side- so we could not complain if there was a price attached.
Ironically, Germany did not suffer economically in the same way because it got buckets of Marshall Aid and had not paid its way during the war- through the Todt Organisation it used millions of unpaid slave workers in the occupied countries to produce its war material- and did not pay for the raw materials it sequestered from France, the low Countries and eastern europe.
Who said crime does not pay?

Zayets
11-07-2003, 11:59 PM
Yeah,Berkshire,you need some reading.Serious stuff,not things you see on Discovery&Co. In Britain you will find the MOST FINEST libraries in the world.Go check. I can understand very well Isegrim & Hucklebein. Indirectly (maybe intentionally) you accuse them of racism/nazism.And this is sad. I can tell you one thing.My grandparents (which BTW , were born in Romania),waited 50 YEARS for the Americans.50 damn years! They got instead the soviets due to a deal made by you know who.Some of our relatives died in the 50's and 60's and not by natural death,if you know what I mean.But,hey!Some of them were surviving those times.Should I be happy,probably.But I'm still thinking to the dead ones,without any other fault but being sold in a deal with the reds.But you can't understand that.You didn't looked at those people when they start talking how is to be in the communist prisons and gulags. You didn't seen the way they're walking on those broken bones.
No,your country didn't owe anything to those countries.Here you are correct.They've learned to keep for themselves those things and accept it as it is. History can't be changed anyway. And I bet you don't have a clue why , say Hungary&Romania fought on German side. But those are the untold stories and you will never be aware of them if you watch only Discovery and History Magazine.
I wish you all the best.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:12 AM
elvive wrote:
- Not that im making excuses for the Nazi`s but the
- British invented concentration camps. During the
- Boer war in South africa 26,000 women and children
- died in these camps(1899-1902) and the british
- wern`t even trying. Makes you wonder where Hitler
- got the idea from.....


You are confusing "concentration camps" with German "death camps".

As far as I know, the use of concentration camps in the Boer war was to deprive the Boer fighters of support in the open country. There was no goverment decision to kill all the inhabitants of the camps, although many died because of the poor conditions there. When reports reached the UK of conditions there was public outrage.

The German camps were not designed to prevent their occupants from supporting irregulars fighting a colonial power. Many were designed with the express intention of killing their inhabitants, after extracting what work could be had from them first. I am aware on no public outrage in wartime Germany over the vanishing jews.

The British did not sit down and plan genocide. The Germans did. The moral difference is clear and quite important.

In fact, Hitler's idea of genocide seems to have been inspired partly by events in what is now Turkey. IIRC he is said to have commented "who remembers the Armenians".

Regards,

Rocketdog.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:19 AM
poles czechs and jews I know machined parts as for assembly Im not sure but would be interesting to find out.

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:29 AM
Zayets wrote:
- Yeah,Berkshire,you need some reading.Serious
- stuff,not things you see on Discovery&Co. In Britain
- you will find the MOST FINEST libraries in the
- world.Go check. I can understand very well Isegrim &
- Hucklebein. Indirectly (maybe intentionally) you
- accuse them of racism/nazism.And this is sad. I can
- tell you one thing.My grandparents (which BTW , were
- born in Romania),waited 50 YEARS for the
- Americans.50 damn years! They got instead the
- soviets due to a deal made by you know who.Some of
- our relatives died in the 50's and 60's and not by
- natural death,if you know what I mean.But,hey!Some
- of them were surviving those times.Should I be
- happy,probably.

I'm not sure what exactly you are suggesting the USA and UK should have done.

Are you suggesting they should have joined forces with Nazi Germany to fight the Soviet Union?

Are you suggesting they should have helped the Soviets defeat the Germans - but then immediately started a war with Soviet Russia to drive them out of Eastern Europe?

Are you suggesting they should have waited a bit, then turned the Cold War into a hot one and started lobing nukes around Europe?

The USA and UK had to deal with the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union existed. Blaming them for living in the real world and not being able to cause the collapse of communism faster than it happened is a bit silly.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:33 AM
Zayets wrote:
- Yeah,Berkshire,you need some reading.Serious
- stuff,not things you see on Discovery&Co. In Britain
- you will find the MOST FINEST libraries in the
- world.Go check. I can understand very well Isegrim &
- Hucklebein. Indirectly (maybe intentionally) you
- accuse them of racism/nazism.And this is sad. I can
- tell you one thing.My grandparents (which BTW , were
- born in Romania),waited 50 YEARS for the
- Americans.50 damn years! They got instead the
- soviets due to a deal made by you know who.Some of
- our relatives died in the 50's and 60's and not by
- natural death,if you know what I mean.

While it is unimaginably sad that so many in Central Europe suffered under the Russian boot, would somebody please tell me how it was America's responsibility to make the Soviets (who had spent a great deal of blood and treasure on their own account to wipe the Nazis off the face of the earth) give up territory they'd fought for, that had been governed by allies of the enemy we had all fought? Honest, we didn't put any of those people or countries in their geographic locations, and we didn't encourage their leadership to ally themselves with the Germans. After spending three years and over a quarter million of our sons' lives trying to kill the Axis' soldiers and airmen (including the Hungarians' and Rumanians') how could you expect the President to sell the American voters on the idea of another couple of MILLION dead American boys to fight our Ally and free our enemies?

Your grandparents' fantasies notwithstanding, Zayets, why should my father and his brothers have given their lives for that? WWII had its roots in WWI, and that was started where? By whom? Some of your problems have their roots in your own back yard, my friend. America is not and was not populated by supermen. Somebody else made that claim, and we had to come over five thousand km to help stop them.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:49 AM
BerkshireHunt wrote:
- I note that Isegrim and Huckebein hail from the less
- slavic countries in eastern europe (Hungary and
- Romania respectively).
- Could it be that the old racism of central europe
- still exists? Russia=slavic=bad (untermenschen);
- Germany=teutonic=good (never mind the nazism).

Is Huckles a Romanian? Given his enthusiasms, I had assumed he's German, partly because of the myth of German victimhood that he has built up for himself. Mind you, this obsession with communism and the embracing of all things opposed to it is characteristic of the new right in Eastern Europe, so I suppose it makes sense.

Interesting psychology there, anyway /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:02 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Churchill and Roosvelt were war
- criminals and will be as despised as Hitler and
- Stalin.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Well, once again the Huck'ster extends the envelope!


I wish John Waters was in on this thread...... it would be wonderful /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif





"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

Zayets
11-08-2003, 02:27 AM
horseback,
you're most probably right.Same question could be on my mind now.I don't want to discuss it more.I feel this thread will go very wrong and I will stop here.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:41 AM
You just gotta realize men are not fit to lead men. Ever.

http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/griffon.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:49 AM
Griffon_25th wrote:
- You just gotta realize men are not fit to lead men.
- Ever.
-
- here here brother, anok4u2?



<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/261003-NewSig_06.gif

"Any information that we receive concerning the real world is carefully controlled"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:02 AM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
- You may note the high French Military casualties.
- Many of those 'Military' deaths were French
- prisoners of war who were working as Slave
- labourers. The same would go for many of the Polish
- 'Military' deaths.

1850000 prisoners of war after the french defeat in 1940. There are still 940000 in 1944-1945. But only 37000 died in captivity.

So yes many french soldiers died in combat. Also many soldiers from any nationality died in captivity. Soviet soldiers had a much harder time in captivity, and likely much higher death rate than french soldiers, who were usually treated pretty well, often having a civilian life while working in germany. So go spout your anti french coward stuff somewhere else.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:10 AM
Zayets wrote:
- horseback,
- you're most probably right.Same question could be on
- my mind now.I don't want to discuss it more.I feel
- this thread will go very wrong and I will stop here.
-
-
-
- Zayets out

Zayets, you've shown an open mind and a willingness to think through your emotional response to your country's situation. That makes you a good man in my book.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:07 AM
Zayets wrote:

- No,your country didn't owe anything to those
- countries.Here you are correct.They've learned to
- keep for themselves those things and accept it as it
- is. History can't be changed anyway. And I bet you
- don't have a clue why , say Hungary&Romania fought
- on German side. But those are the untold stories and
- you will never be aware of them if you watch only
- Discovery and History Magazine.
- I wish you all the best.

We don't get Discovery in England (an American TV channel isn't it?) and my reading is rather more widespread than you give me credit for.

I imagine you are alluding to the military guarantees given by Chamberlain to Romania when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia- which were not honoured because Britain had no means of getting either troops or weapons to Romania- it was a bluff but it gave a little more time for Britain to re- arm in its own defence. (I'm sorry if you feel let down by that but Britain was ill- prepared for war and could not at that time have mounted any kind of realistic military challenge to Hitler).
And to the fact that the Romanian ambassador in London several times warned the British government that Germany might seek to invade Romania to secure its oil. Which came true- but also because Hitler wanted to send troops through Romania to Greece to head- off a British intention to bomb Ploesti from there.
And to the fact that at the same time as giving military guarantees to Romania the British were suggesting to Stalin that he should negotiate with Hitler to carve- up the whole of eastern europe between them. It would at least have brought stability and avoided world war if the two totalitarian governments had done this. Each would have had a sphere of influence and each would have held the other in check. Which was in the British interest (though not necessarily in the best interests of the people of eastern europe). But Hitler wanted Lebensraum...
Ultimately, Hungary and Romania fought on the German side because they had no choice- they were 'invited' (read:told)to join the Axis by Hitler just prior to Barbarossa.
And in any case the Hungarians had scores to settle in Ruthenia dating back to Austro- Hungarian times- an alliance with Hitler could just mean territorial gains for Hungary...
But this is old news.
Care to give me your view? I am genuinely interested in any new insights you can provide from the Romanian perpective- and in your attitude to WW2 Germany/Russia.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:21 AM
Re German use of slave labour the Todt Organisation should not be ignored. http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t057/t05789.html

ORGANISATION TODT
Named after its founder, Dr. Fritz Todt, this was an organization in Nazi Germany for large-scale construction, particularly for the military. By 1944, it employed 1,360,000 workers including thousands of concentration camp inmates and criminals. Organization Todt constructed scores of tunnels for the production of missiles and engines.


And this is part of the transcript of the trial at Nuremburg of Fritz Sauckel, the man who ran the Todt Organisation and was responsible for the way it teated slave workers. He was hung. One of his reports to Hitler was read aloud in court by the prosecuting counsel:

"'My Fuehrer! I beg to submit to you the following figures on the manpower employed in the Todt Organisation:

In addition to the manpower assigned to the entire German industry by the 'Manpower Utilisation' since I took office, fresh workers have also been constantly supplied to the Todt Organisation. The total figure of the workers employed by the Todt Organisation was as follows:

End of March, 1942-270,969.
End of March, 1943-696,003.
It should be noted that the 'Manpower Utilisation' has, with great speed and energy, assigned workers preferably to the Todt Organisation in the West for the purpose of completing the work on the Atlantic Wall. This is all the more remarkable because (1) in France, Belgium and Holland... "
I omit a few lines and quote from Page 2:
"Despite the difficulties involved, the manpower strength of the Todt Organisation in the West was increased from 66,701 workers at the end of March, 1942, to 248,200 workers at the end of March, 1943."
The number of foreign workers deported to Germany by 30th September, 1941, is furnished by a report which was found in the archives of the O.K.W. It is Document 1323-PS, which I submit as Exhibit RF 85. According to this document, 1,226,686 workers were employed in Germany on the 30th September,1941. Of that number, 483,842 came from the occupied Western territories. I quote from the document the number of labour deportees by country of origin. I shall confine myself to the columns of interest to the Western States, since the statistics of workers deported from the East of Europe come within the province of my Soviet colleague.
"Denmark, 63,309.
Holland, 134,093.
Belgium, 212,903.
France, 72,475.
Italy, 238,557."
Finally, on 7th July, 1944, Sauckel, in one of his last reports, informed the National Socialist Government of the results of his campaign during the first half of 1944. I quote the document, which bears the No. 208-PS, and which I submit to the Tribunal as Exhibit RF 86. I read from the second page -
"C. The foreigners came from:
France, except the North, 33,000.
Belgium, including the North of France, 16,000.
Netherlands, 15,000.
Italy, 37,000.'


This is the fresh manpower put at the disposal of German industry during the period of 1st January to 30th June,1944.
I have furnished the proof I owed to the Tribunal. The Tribunal will, moreover, remember Sauckel's admission at the 43rd conference of the Four Year Plan, which I have read to you previously. Sauckel admitted that there were 5,000,000 foreign workers in Germany, of whom 200,000 were actually volunteers.

The enormity of the crime exposed is established by the circumstances of its perpetration, and by the multitude of the victims affected. To prove the gravity of its effect, I have but to recall the treatment to which foreign workers were subjected in Germany.

German propaganda always claimed that foreign workers deported to Germany were treated on an equal basis with German workers; the same living conditions, the same labour contracts and discipline. This contention, as such, is not conclusive. My American colleagues have furnished proof of the blows which the National Socialist conspirators have dealt to the dignity and decency of the life of the German worker. But the actual facts were different. Foreign workers did not enjoy the treatment in Germany to which they were entitled as human beings. I affirm this and I shall try to prove it to the Tribunal.

But, before going into that, I wish to call its attention to the significance of the next crime which I am denouncing. It does not only make the crime of
deportation complete, but provides its true meaning also. I said that the policy of the defendants in the occupied territories could be summed up as follows:
Utilisation of the productive forces and extermination of the unproductive forces. This is the principle representing one of the favourite concepts of National Socialism, on the basis of which the treatment inflicted on foreign workers by the defendants should be judged. The Germans have exploited the human potential of the occupied countries to the extreme limit of the strength of the individuals concerned. They showed some consideration for foreign workers only in so far as they wished to increase their output. But as soon as their capacity for work decreased, the foreign workers shared the common lot of deportees..."

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:57 AM
This period is one of the darkest in man's inhumanity to man. The same nazi medical experiments and slave labor atrocities were also practiced by the Japanese in China and Korea along with forced prostitution (comfort women). Allied POW's were also forced into slave labor and were regularly beaten and starved to death.

Sabotage was a regular practice by those in slave labor. I wonder just how much this affected war production, performance, reliability of aircraft, tanks, and the rest of the weapons of war. There are reports of many being shot for sabotage at Peenamunde. Did german pilots and ground crews think about who was forced into assembling their planes?


____________________


Huck wrote---"I see you are completely unable to see the guilt of the western governments, but in 10-15 years the victims of communism and their relatives will make their voice heard. Churchill and Roosevelt were war criminals and will be as despised as Hitler and Stalin."



Huck you need to seriously rethink what you stated here. This statement is completely false and ludicrous in nature to compare Leaders of the Free World to ruthless murdering dictators.


______________________


Zayet wrote--"I can tell you one thing. My grandparents (which BTW , were born in Romania),waited 50 YEARS for the Americans.50 damn years! They got instead the soviets due to a deal made by you know who.Some of our relatives died in the 50's and 60's and not by natural death,if you know what I mean."



Zayet, I am sorry for the suffering your grandparents endured during communist occupation. But look at the facts. You are discounting the sacrifice of lives lost, and the billions of dollars spent by Americans and the rest of NATO Nations over the last 50 years to win the Cold War without a nuclear exchange and prevent further Soviet expansion.

Remember President Reagan saying to Gobachev ---"Mr.Gorbachev tear down this wall" ! The 50years of sacrifice by NATO Nations brought the Berlin Wall down and the dismantling of the USSR. This process bought YOUR FREEDOM and the rest of the countries behind the Iron Curtain their freedom. Many American serviceman along with NATO troops died behind the scenes in submarines, airplanes and recon patrols while waging this Cold War.


The alliance between the West (US & Brits) with Russia was a fragile one during WW2. Both did not trust each other. Russian spies were running all over the US and Britain. American pilots that were forced to land in Russia took months to make it back and some were held for the duration of the war. Most of the aircraft that landed there damaged was never returned, such as B-29's.

If you look at it realistically : 1939-1945, 6 years of war and 50 million people dead, everyone wanted WW2 to end immediately. Churchill strongly persuaded Truman to use the atomic bomb on Japan; #1 To end the war there as quickly as possible and save lives by avoiding an invasion of Japan, #2 To scare the hell out of Stalin and influence his withdrawal from eastern Europe in a post WW2 world.

Other than the threat of starting WW3 and the use of atomic weapons to push the USSR back to its original borders, Roosevelt & Churchill had NO leverage to make Stalin withdraw. Yalta was a strategic power move by Stalin that could not be countered by the US and Britain. The dropping of the atomic bomb did not scare the hell out of Stalin as his spies had already reported about the bomb to him.

Sorry, there was absolutely nothing that could be done in 1945 to make Stalin withdraw his forces back to Russia.





Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 08:53 AM
BerkshireHunt wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Perhaps UK/USA should have left Germany alone so it
- could peacefully enslave the smaller eastern nations
- and pursue its genocidal war against more 'slavic'
- countries unmolested?
- I note that Isegrim and Huckebein hail from the less
- slavic countries in eastern europe (Hungary and
- Romania respectively).
- Could it be that the old racism of central europe
- still exists? Russia=slavic=bad (untermenschen);
- Germany=teutonic=good (never mind the nazism).
-
- Your bitterness at having to live under communism
- for so long is leading you to look for scapegoats.
- It can't have been the fault of those misunderstood
- Germans can it? They led the fight against Russia-
- if those blasted Brits hadn't meddled in Germany's
- masterplan Russia could have been smashed and your
- countries would have enjoyed 60 years of freedom as
- Germany's favoured satellite nations. After all,
- your boys fought with the Germans on the eastern
- front didn't they?
- The Jews? Who cares about them?
- Yes, let's blame the British for the war and our
- countries' subsequent capture by the Russians.
-


Just so.

Also, if you can slander other countries to make them look as bad as Nazi Germany, then your own admiration for Nazi Germany becomes more acceptable. And judging by what I see here Huckbein admires the Nazis with a passion.

-------------------------------------
When the (German) rationalisation drive began it was found that the armed forces had greatly inflated the demand for raw materials by exaggerating the quantity needed for each unit of production. The large firms held substantial stocks of scarce materials, particularly aluminium, which had been allocated on the basis of 16,000 lb for each aircraft, regardless of the fact that a fighter consumed only a quarter of this quantity. Aircraft firms had so much ingot aluminium in store that they used it to produce non-essential goods - ladder, greenhouses, even mosquito nets.

Professor R.J. Overy, 'War and Economy in the Third Reich'

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:32 PM
BerkshireHunt wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- Buzzsaw, why don't you list together with the deaths
-- in Holocaust the deaths in communists prisons, to
-- get a clear picture what your country helped built.
--
-- US and UK were allies of USSR, they supported and
-- justified a savage dictatorship, helped it built its
-- domination in Eastern Europe, pushing those small
-- countries back a hundred years in development.
--
-- I see you are completely unable to see the guilt of
-- the western governments, but in 10-15 years the
-- victims of communism and their relatives will make
-- their voice heard. Churchill and Roosvelt were war
-- criminals and will be as despised as Hitler and
-- Stalin.
-
- Perhaps UK/USA should have left Germany alone so it
- could peacefully enslave the smaller eastern nations
- and pursue its genocidal war against more 'slavic'
- countries unmolested?
- I note that Isegrim and Huckebein hail from the less
- slavic countries in eastern europe (Hungary and
- Romania respectively).
- Could it be that the old racism of central europe
- still exists? Russia=slavic=bad (untermenschen);
- Germany=teutonic=good (never mind the nazism).


A slanderous affirmation based on inane "findings". What old racism of Eastern Europe are you talking about? Have you ever been in Eastern Europe? Are there any anti-slavic feelings in Romania?? I never heard about it, but I'm sure you can tell us plenty more, directly from your sick imagination.


- Your bitterness at having to live under communism
- for so long is leading you to look for scapegoats.
- It can't have been the fault of those misunderstood
- Germans can it?

Misunderstood germans? Are you suggesting that I was trying to justify Nazi policies? Point me to the exact line written by me, give me a single quote. I already told this 100 times, but I have to repeat it for every single idiot that comes in here, surprised that I call Churchill and Roosevelt war criminals:

I despise Nazi policies, Nazi exponents and the people promoting them. There is nothing to despise more than governmentally controled mass murder of civilians. This is what Nazi Germany government did, but also British and American governments. There is no distintion between a person that orders the death of one million people in a year, by starvation, executions, diseases, and another one that orders the death of 100,000 in a day, by firebombing the cities or dropping atomic bombs. Those were murderous acts with no military justifications, they brought no military advantage - this being the usual justifications of the crimes. For example at the height of the bombing campaign in ETO, Germany's industrial production reached its peak.


- They led the fight against Russia-
- if those blasted Brits hadn't meddled in Germany's
- masterplan Russia could have been smashed and your
- countries would have enjoyed 60 years of freedom as
- Germany's favoured satellite nations. After all,
- your boys fought with the Germans on the eastern
- front didn't they?

My boys? you mean our grandparents? Yes they fought against USSR because USSR took by ultimatum (June '40) historical romanian provinces, Bessarabia and northern Bukovina. What should romanians do? Look how romanian population is deported from Bessarabia to Siberia and replaced with other displaced population from all over the USSR, so that today there are only 65% romanian population in the region? Probably yes, we should "obey the ruler", right?



- The Jews? Who cares about them?
- Yes, let's blame the British for the war and our
- countries' subsequent capture by the Russians.
-
- I have news for you- the godless death cult which
- ruled Germany from 1933- 1945 was so outrageously
- offensive to all civilised minds that almost any
- means of defeating it was justified (I'm tempted to
- post a picture of a corpse- mountain found at
- Belsen, but that would get me banned). If that meant
- that some countries in eastern europe got invaded by
- the Soviets so be it. It was the price that had to
- be paid- but British diplomats would not have been
- proud of that outcome.

You want me to believe you that British and Americans raged this war to save the Jewish population in Europe?? Is this what are reading now in school manuals? The extent of Nazi repression against Jewish population was not known during the war. What was known very well at that were the purges and Gulag deportations in USSR made during late '30s. When Churchill and Roosevelt made an alliance with Stalin, they transformed themselves in accessory to murder. British and Americans were not fighting for Jews, they were fighting for their own interests.



- For your information, Britain owes you nothing.
- British foreign policy is determined by what is in
- the British interest. Always was, always will be (EU
- notwithstanding). However, if you truly believe
- Britain sold your country into slavery I think you
- are ascribing a great deal more influence to British
- diplomacy than was ever the case.

At Third Moscow Conference (Oct '44) Churchill proposed to Stalin the division of Europe in spheres of influence. Procentages are known: Romania 90% Soviet, Greece 90% UK, Bulgaria 25/75, Hungary 50/50, Yugoslavia 50/50, Poland - not yet established. Because this information leaked, Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin agreed to sign at Yalta in Feb '45 a declaration in which they condemned the separation in "spheres of influence" and called for "free elections" in Eastern Europe. We all know how free those elections were.

Certainly such a document is not available for study, and it won't be declassified. All the three powers will deny it like they did since the Yalta conference in '45. But we have the testimonies of the diplomats written in their memoirs. Such denials in diplomacy are the norm not the exception. For example the treaty between Romania and Russian was delayed for more than 10 years after 1989, it is not signed yet, because Romania wanted to include in the treaty a condemnation of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Up to this day Russia denies the existance of this document though the original is today in Washington, available for study. As you can see, such documents are available only if one of those countries becomes ocuppied, and it serves the interests of the country that makes the document public.

Documents of marginal interest appear sometimes though. For example the talks in the 30s between British and USSR and Germans and USSR. You can see there very nicely how instrumental was Britain to provoke USSR to make territorial demands in Romania. All this in hope of a war between Germany and USSR since Germany's interest in Romania's oil but also it's interest in Eastern Europe in general was very much clear. Territorial demands that USSR made eventually.

I'm not surprised by the total ignorance showed the westerners when they are asked to comment on the extent of the communist repression in Eastern Europe. After all why would someone want to know the horrors commited by regimes their governments helped built in Eastern Europe. It's very much like the situation of right-wing dictatorships helped by US throughtout the world, especially in Latin America.

In Romania alone about 1 million people were thrown in communist prisons from which less than half returned. Romania was not a singular case in Eastern Europe, similar atrocities happened in each country of the region. The studies about communist repression are not welcome in the West though. For various reasons, the westerners together with the former communists delay the research and limit the availability in media of such research. The idea of making a Trial of Communism the way Nuremberg Trial was conducted encountered strong resistance in the West. Somebody still wants to know only half of the truth. But after the inclusion of the Eastern European countries in EU the evidence will become available eventually. It will be in every school textbook, alongside with the Holocaust. Pictures from Belsen together with pictures from Sighet, Aiud or Jilava.

To avoid confusions, so nobody will think that communists were having popular support and they were eliminating political adversaries because the population allowed that to happen. In Romania right after the war the Communist Party had 1000 members from which the majority were foreigners, sovietic agents (admitted by themselves, this was a high mark after the war, not 20 years later though). Only soviet tanks allowed this group of people to impose the communism in Romania. There were resilient pockets of armed resistance in the mountains until the 60s.

Regarding the germans, I don't have towards them any special feeling compared with other European nations. If you look at the relationship during the war between the german and romanian military forces, you can see that it was rather bad than good, especially with ground troups (for various reasons, I don't have the time to mention them now). Relationship between airforces was better but still tensioned, since many high ranked officers made no secret from their pro-allied stance - for example the highest scoring romanian ace, Constantin Cantacuzino, (47 air kills).

On the other hand I strongly believe that germans had the best military equipment in ww2 and I have arguments to prove it. This is my point here on this boards, but this always seems to bring a storm of replies from faint at heart "patriots", most of them insults. I also reply in the same manner when insulted since mods do not make action to curb such behaviour, though I very much dislike it. And with this reply I'll end my participation on this thread. I'll be in it again in month though, this topic never dies.




<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:00 PM
LOL, such a rant Huck./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now the question is, if you hate the United Kingdom and the United States of America so much, when are you going back to Romania? Living in the country, US of A, of one of your most outright hated, detested people..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif The terrorists that flew the a/c into the WTC on 9-11 had a simular passionate hated for the United States of America as well,....hummmmm.


Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-
- I have to repeat it
- for every single idiot that comes in here,
-

Don't disagree with Huck, for you are an IDIOT. Calling someone an IDIOT, and you have called many on this forum, NOW, with this post, is a banning offence.




http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:26 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- LOL, such a rant Huck
- Now the question is, if you hate the United Kingdom
- and the United States of America so much, when are
- you going back to Romania?

I have no hate towards UK or US, I just disaprove their foreign policy. I guess this is still allowed, isn't it?
But to answer your question, I'll be back in Europe in 4 or 5 years.



- Living in the country,
- US of A, of one of your most outright hated,
- detested people The terrorists that
- flew the a/c into the WTC on 9-11 had a simular
- passionate hated for the United States of America as
- well,....hummmmm.


Completely distasteful comparation. I certainly don't have anything against british and american people. Disagreeing their foreign policies does not make me an arab terrorist.
You obviously can't tolerate the diversity of oppinions, you would have made an excellent communist agitator.


- Huckebein_FW wrote:
--
--
-- I have to repeat it
-- for every single idiot that comes in here,
--
-
- Don't disagree with Huck, for you are an IDIOT.
- Calling someone an IDIOT, and you have called many
- on this forum, NOW, with this post, is a banning
- offence.

Calling someone nazi without proof is also an offence, a much more serious one. Still it was done for a page a half in this thread already, with no penalty applied.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:43 PM
I thought you said you would not be back in this thread Huck./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Huckebein_FW wrote:

-
- I have no hate towards UK or US, I just disaprove
- their foreign policy. I guess this is still allowed,
- isn't it?
- But to answer your question, I'll be back in Europe
- in 4 or 5 years.
-

That long leaching off the United Sates of America!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

-
-
- Completely distasteful comparation. I certainly
- don't have anything against british and american
- people. Disagreeing their foreign policies does not
- make me an arab terrorist.


Those 'Arabs' don't like American foreign policy either./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- You obviously can't tolerate the diversity of
- oppinions, you would have made an excellent
- communist agitator.
-

Sure what ever you say Huck./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


-
- Calling someone nazi without proof is also an
- offence, a much more serious one. Still it was done
- for a page a half in this thread already, with no
- penalty applied.
-
-

Please, where were you called a Nazi? I don't remember seeing, 'Huck, you Nazi' in a post.



http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:51 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- I despise Nazi policies, Nazi exponents and the
- people promoting them. There is nothing to despise
- more than governmentally controled mass murder of
- civilians. This is what Nazi Germany government did,
- but also British and American governments. There is
- no distintion between a person that orders the death
- of one million people in a year, by starvation,
- executions, diseases, and another one that orders
- the death of 100,000 in a day, by firebombing the
- cities or dropping atomic bombs. Those were
- murderous acts with no military justifications, they
- brought no military advantage - this being the usual
- justifications of the crimes. For example at the
- height of the bombing campaign in ETO, Germany's
- industrial production reached its peak.

It has been pointed out to you several times that the Germans themselves estimated bombing to have significantly reduced armaments output. For example, in 1944 they estimated losses in production due to bombing of about 35% for tanks, 31% for aircraft and 42% for lorries. They also attributed the total collapse of the economy in 1945 to bombing. I recently provided you with a reference to an Oxford University Press text which discusses German industry during the war and addresses exactly this topic (War & Economy in the Third Reich, OUP, 2002).

So when you claim that bombing had no effect you are simply wrong.

Worse, from what you write it looks like you deny the truth so that you can try and make a moral equivalence between Roosevelt and Churchill on one hand and Hitler on the other. A dubious proposition and one which raises natural suspicions as to where your sympathies really lie. After all, if they really were no different then there is no moral penalty in identifying with the Nazi cause rather than that of the democracies. I see that as the real danger in the sort of historical revisionism you advance.

RocketDog.

(edit for spelling)




Message Edited on 11/08/0302:55PM by RocketDog

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:02 PM
to say nothing of the impact of bombing on fuel production either.


http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:33 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- On the other hand I strongly believe that germans
- had the best military equipment in ww2 and I have
- arguments to prove it. This is my point here on this
- boards, but this always seems to bring a storm of
- replies from faint at heart "patriots", most of them
- insults. I also reply in the same manner when
- insulted since mods do not make action to curb such
- behaviour, though I very much dislike it. And with
- this reply I'll end my participation on this thread.
- I'll be in it again in month though, this topic
- never dies.


The problem, Huck, is that you don't prove it, and then sink to the level of insulting Americans, and disparaging their contributions to the war, as well as their equipment. Then you often presume to speak with authority on matters only prove you haven't done your homework. And whne that is point out, you sink even further. And I've never seen you admit you were wrong about anything, even when you clearly were.

That's why your credibility is so low on these boards.


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sigstang.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:36 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Those were
- murderous acts with no military justifications, they
- brought no military advantage - this being the usual
- justifications of the crimes. For example at the
- height of the bombing campaign in ETO, Germany's
- industrial production reached its peak.

You should consider the opinion of the man who was running the whole production show in Germany at that stage:

"Another 5 or 6 Hamburgs and we would have been finished"

-Albert Speer, German Armaments Minister, 1942-1945.


So, from the point of view of side being attacked, there were military justifications for the bombing campaign. When the fuel producing capacity of Germany was targeted and largely destroyed in the latter half of 1944, it crippled any operations or efforts requiring the use of large volumes of fuel.



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:01 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Please, where were you called a Nazi? I don't
- remember seeing, 'Huck, you Nazi' in a post.

There's plenty of such posts, but probably mods are as short-sighted as you are. Here's a quote from just a few posts above:

"Also, if you can slander other countries to make them look as bad as Nazi Germany, then your own admiration for Nazi Germany becomes more acceptable. And judging by what I see here Huckbein admires the Nazis with a passion."



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 11/08/0311:01AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:12 PM
RocketDog wrote:
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- I despise Nazi policies, Nazi exponents and the
-- people promoting them. There is nothing to despise
-- more than governmentally controled mass murder of
-- civilians. This is what Nazi Germany government did,
-- but also British and American governments. There is
-- no distintion between a person that orders the death
-- of one million people in a year, by starvation,
-- executions, diseases, and another one that orders
-- the death of 100,000 in a day, by firebombing the
-- cities or dropping atomic bombs. Those were
-- murderous acts with no military justifications, they
-- brought no military advantage - this being the usual
-- justifications of the crimes. For example at the
-- height of the bombing campaign in ETO, Germany's
-- industrial production reached its peak.
-
- It has been pointed out to you several times that
- the Germans themselves estimated bombing to have
- significantly reduced armaments output. For example,
- in 1944 they estimated losses in production due to
- bombing of about 35% for tanks, 31% for aircraft and
- 42% for lorries. They also attributed the total
- collapse of the economy in 1945 to bombing. I
- recently provided you with a reference to an Oxford
- University Press text which discusses German
- industry during the war and addresses exactly this
- topic (War & Economy in the Third Reich, OUP, 2002).
-
- So when you claim that bombing had no effect you are
- simply wrong.


It would have had an effect if the Germany's industrial production decreased, but it increased, so it didn't have any effect.



- Worse, from what you write it looks like you deny
- the truth so that you can try and make a moral
- equivalence between Roosevelt and Churchill on one
- hand and Hitler on the other.

Crimes commited by governments against civilians are immoral no matter if the regime is a dictatorship or it calls himself a democracy. People life has the same value, no matter if they are Jews, Americans, Germans or Romanians.



- A dubious proposition
- and one which raises natural suspicions as to where
- your sympathies really lie. After all, if they
- really were no different then there is no moral
- penalty in identifying with the Nazi cause rather
- than that of the democracies. I see that as the real
- danger in the sort of historical revisionism you
- advance.

There is no historical revisionism in my position. I don't want to excuse anybody from responsability. I don't deny the crimes commited by Nazi Germany. What I would like to see is that the crimes commited by the other powers involved in war are aknowledged. I hope that you are aware that the Japanese government still has difficulties in taking the responsability for their crimes commited in Asia. So does your government, Rocketdog.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:12 PM
LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Huckebein_FW wrote:

-
- There's plenty of such posts, but probably mods are
- as short-sighted as you are. Here's a quote from
- just a few posts above:
-
- "Also, if you can slander other countries to make
- them look as bad as Nazi Germany, then your own
- admiration for Nazi Germany becomes more acceptable.
- And judging by what I see here Huckbein admires the
- Nazis with a passion."
-
-

Your reading comprehension is nil Huck. Get a GOOD English dictionary so you can look up the meaning for the words used.




http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:16 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- to say nothing of the impact of bombing on fuel
- production either.


Sure, fuel plants were a legitimate military target. Cities full of refugies and with no military targets, like Dresden, were not. To be more specific firebombing those cities are war crimes.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:20 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
--
-- There's plenty of such posts, but probably mods are
-- as short-sighted as you are. Here's a quote from
-- just a few posts above:
--
-- "Also, if you can slander other countries to make
-- them look as bad as Nazi Germany, then your own
-- admiration for Nazi Germany becomes more acceptable.
-- And judging by what I see here Huckbein admires the
-- Nazis with a passion."
--
--
-
- Your reading comprehension is nil Huck. Get a GOOD
- English dictionary so you can look up the meaning
- for the words used.


Probably you have a cabbage in place of your brain. He does accuse me of Nazi sympathies very clearly.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:20 PM
Huck, you seem to think that bombing cities was unethical.

However, the Germans moved huge quantities of production into the cities once they learned their plants were to be bombed unmercifully.

You ever hear the term "cottage industry?" Aircraft components and other war supplies were being fabricated in large quantities in basements! This can not be ignored, and to leave them unbombed would have been unwise.

You also claim that German production peaked in 1944. Yes, but it would have been even greater had it not been for the constant bombing.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sigstang.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:27 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- RocketDog wrote:
--
-- It has been pointed out to you several times that
-- the Germans themselves estimated bombing to have
-- significantly reduced armaments output. For example,
-- in 1944 they estimated losses in production due to
-- bombing of about 35% for tanks, 31% for aircraft and
-- 42% for lorries. They also attributed the total
-- collapse of the economy in 1945 to bombing. I
-- recently provided you with a reference to an Oxford
-- University Press text which discusses German
-- industry during the war and addresses exactly this
-- topic (War & Economy in the Third Reich, OUP, 2002).
--
-- So when you claim that bombing had no effect you are
-- simply wrong.
-
-
- It would have had an effect if the Germany's
- industrial production decreased, but it increased,
- so it didn't have any effect.
-
-

A lost cause RocketDog./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now if Germany had 35% more tanks, 31% more aircraft and 42% more lorries, never mind if the almost total destruction of the 'oil' industry did not happen as well as the transportation system, how would this have effected the Germans ability to wage war? They could not even keep their military units up to established strength.



http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:34 PM
SkyChimp wrote:
- Huck, you seem to think that bombing cities was
- unethical.
-
- However, the Germans moved huge quantities of
- production into the cities once they learned their
- plants were to be bombed unmercifully.

This is bullsh*t. How typical. This excuse is used by your government even today. The Nazis used it too. How many military objectives were they after when they firebombed Dresden? None.



- You ever hear the term "cottage industry?" Aircraft
- components and other war supplies were being
- fabricated in large quantities in basements! This
- can not be ignored, and to leave them unbombed would
- have been unwise.

Sure not bombing the cities to smithereens would have proved unwise. They surely produced 35.000 109 in basements. I guess Bismarck and Tirpitz were made in basements too.


- You also claim that German production peaked in
- 1944.

This is not my claim, it is the reality that disqualifies the strategic bombing campaign as being useless. They did kill a enormous number of civilians though, probably a success, following your line of reasoning.


Yes, but it would have been even greater had
- it not been for the constant bombing.

What a stupid assumption. How do you know that? Did they had more raw materials to increase production further? And to what use? Most of the '44 aircraft production remained abandoned on various airfields, ready for easy strafing, a very small quantity was flown by combat squadrons due to shortages of fuel.



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:38 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

-
-
- Sure, fuel plants were a legitimate military target.
- Cities full of refugies and with no military
- targets, like Dresden, were not. To be more specific
- firebombing those cities are war crimes.
-

LOL, no military targets in Dresden. The Ziess factory making glass for the EZ42 was there. It was also a major transportation hub for that part of Germany.



http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 05:47 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
.
-
-
- Probably you have a cabbage in place of your brain.
- He does accuse me of Nazi sympathies very clearly.
-
-

LOL, the insults start.

Being accussed of having Nazi sympathies and being called/being a Nazi are not the same.





http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 06:16 PM
I read the Willy Messerchmitt biography a while back and IIRC he actually got into a bit of hot water for treating his slave labour workforce better than he was expected to...

S! Simon.
<center>

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm).

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/ex1_soon.jpg
<font color="#000000">It's my attitude not my aptitude that determines my altitude.</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 06:17 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- RocketDog wrote:
-- So when you claim that bombing had no effect you are
-- simply wrong.
-
-
- It would have had an effect if the Germany's
- industrial production decreased, but it increased,
- so it didn't have any effect.
-

German production increased, but not as much as it could have and not nearly enough to match increases in Allied production. The bombing significantly reduced the amount of weaponry and equipment available to Germany compared to that which it would have had without. This was an important success of the bombing campaign and shows that you are wrong when you claim it had no effect.

You can criticise the bombing campaign because it caused deaths, but you cannot criticize it as being ineffective.

This is a key point in any debate over the moral viability of the bomber offensive because it moves the question from "was it right to kill people with bombers for no reason?" to "was the price worth paying in order to defeat German and Japanese fascism?".


-- Worse, from what you write it looks like you deny
-- the truth so that you can try and make a moral
-- equivalence between Roosevelt and Churchill on one
-- hand and Hitler on the other.
-
- Crimes commited by governments against civilians are
- immoral no matter if the regime is a dictatorship or
- it calls himself a democracy. People life has the
- same value, no matter if they are Jews, Americans,
- Germans or Romanians.


By this logic the Allies could not have fought the Germans at all because to do so would inevitably mean killing civilians. The means of fighting wars available in the 1940s were very bloody. But the Allies had the choice of using them or using nothing.

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 06:28 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- SkyChimp wrote:
- Yes, but it would have been even greater had
-- it not been for the constant bombing.
-
- What a stupid assumption. How do you know that? Did
- they had more raw materials to increase production
- further? And to what use? Most of the '44 aircraft
- production remained abandoned on various airfields,
- ready for easy strafing, a very small quantity was
- flown by combat squadrons due to shortages of fuel.
-

As people continue to explain to you, apparently with no success, the Germans _themselves_ estimated that bombing reduced production by about one third in 1944 and caused economic collapse in 1945.

Do you really know better than the german industrialists of the time?

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 06:45 PM
Extreme One?
Hope this isn' too much to ask, but could you elaborate on the "He got in trouble for treating them better than he should"? Does it mention his opinions on the people, ect?


Thank you,
Atticus,

DOMINAS VOBISCUM

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 06:51 PM
Stupid?

And you wonder why so many people here think you are a Nazi-defending turd.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sigstang.jpg



Message Edited on 11/08/0308:53PM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 07:02 PM
Gurnecia (sp)

Warsaw, Rotterdamn. Or tossings V-1s and 2s at London, .

What was the military significance about those cities?

Or Lidice? The Warsaw Ghetto? Oradur?

Where they legitimate military targets?

Buchenwald, Treblinka, Ravensbruck (sp), Auschwitz to name but a few.

What military purpose did they serve?

Estimates vary on how many died in Dresden. I have seen it go from 35,000 to 100,000. A tragedy? I suppose so.
But that is insignificant compared to how many civilians died in Auschwitz alone. (1.2 million) Or the entire total which runs as high as 10 million, of which 5.4 to 6 million were Jews.




Huckebein_FW wrote:
--
- Sure, fuel plants were a legitimate military target.
- Cities full of refugies and with no military
- targets, like Dresden, were not. To be more specific
- firebombing those cities are war crimes.
-
-
- After the war Robert Saunby, Deputy Air Marshal at Bomber Command, commented on the bombing of Dresden.

That the bombing of Dresden was a great tragedy none can deny. It is not so much this or the other means of making war that is immoral or inhumane. What is immoral is war itself. Once full-scale war has broken out it can never be humanized or civilized, and if one side attempted to do so it would be most likely to be defeated. That to me is the lesson of Dresden.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 07:09 PM
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- It would have had an effect if the Germany's
-- industrial production decreased, but it increased,
-- so it didn't have any effect.


That statement is wrong and skims over key isses. Latter half 1944 war armaments production in Germany did indeed increase (dramatically so in some cases) but why?

Well, there was a simply colossal effort on the part of the Germans to decentralise their industry following the damage caused by the Allied Bomber offensives, at the same time as an equally huge focus was placed upon achieving maximum levels of production (U-boats and Fighters being two examples of where this policy was most evident).

What is important is that in the absence of the Allied bombing, German war industry would have been left untouched and they would never have had to expend resources responding to the bombings effect, resources that would have been utilised against the Allies in other ways.





"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

Message Edited on 11/08/03 06:14PM by NegativeGee

Message Edited on 11/08/0306:21PM by NegativeGee

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 07:41 PM
BigKahuna_GS wrote:
-
- Sabotage was a regular practice by those in slave
- labor. I wonder just how much this affected war
- production, performance, reliability of aircraft,
- tanks, and the rest of the weapons of war. There are
- reports of many being shot for sabotage at
- Peenamunde. Did german pilots and ground crews think
- about who was forced into assembling their planes?


Just found this in an old Profile Publication on the Do 217 written in July 1974 by Alfred Price:

'Sabotage of the Hs 293 glider bombs

From August 1943 the Do 217s of KG100 and the Heinkel 177s of KG40, both flying from Bordeaux/ Merignac, carried out several attacks against ships that ventured within their range. Yet successes were few because a high proportion of the new glider bombs failed to obtain the guidance signals from the parent aircraft. Later, in response to complaints from aircrew, the technical staff at Merignac carried out an investigation into the causes of the failures; and it was then that Feldwebel Fritz Trenkle discovered that the aircraft had been sabotaged. He later recalled:

"The command guidance signals from the aircraft transmitter were carried to the aerial via a co- axial cable and somebody had cut the central conducting wire half- way along its length and then reassembled the cable. It was very clever, and obviously done by an expert. When we tested the transmitters on the ground with the aircraft engines stopped, the central conducting wire made good contact and the signals to the missile were radiated properly. But when the engines were running the vibration caused the gap in the wire to open and close so that for long periods the guidance signals never reached the aerial. Once I had discovered the reason for the failure we checked all the Hs 293- carrying aircraft, Do 217s and He 177s, and found that about half had been 'doctored' in this way.
The SS carried out exhaustive enquiries at Merignac in an effort to find the culprit but without success."

Many hundreds of Allied sailors must now, unknowingly, owe their lives to the stealth and skill of this nameless French saboteur.'

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 07:47 PM
BTW the nazis crimes didn't stop during WWII either; I have proofs.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/johncheese/belt.html

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 07:56 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- There is no historical revisionism in my position.

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/U_R_HERE.jpg


<div style="width:800;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=8)">
<h2> TAGERT</h2>
<h3>If WAR was not the ANSWER........ Than what the H was your QUESTION?</h3>
</div>


Message Edited on 11/08/0310:58AM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 08:37 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- BerkshireHunt wrote:

-- I note that Isegrim and Huckebein hail from the less
-- slavic countries in eastern europe (Hungary and
-- Romania respectively).
-- Could it be that the old racism of central europe
-- still exists? Russia=slavic=bad (untermenschen);
-- Germany=teutonic=good (never mind the nazism).
-
-
- A slanderous affirmation based on inane "findings".
- What old racism of Eastern Europe are you talking
- about? Have you ever been in Eastern Europe? Are
- there any anti-slavic feelings in Romania?? I never
- heard about it, but I'm sure you can tell us plenty
- more, directly from your sick imagination.

A BBC film crew recently visited Romania and produced an interesting report on the plight of Romanians of Bulgarian extraction. Many were interviewed, and they left no doubt that they were viewed as second- class citizens by ethnic Romanians, with poorer job prospects and pay- purely because of prejudice against their family backgrounds. It was all rather sad.

Romania and Hungary border each other and it's interesting to note that the official languages of Romania are Romanian, Magyar (Hungarian) and German. The Romanians are descended from Goths, Huns, Avars, Gepids (all germanic) and romanised Dacian tribes.
The Bulgarians, on the other hand, are Slavs in ethnic origin, language and culture. They use the Russian Cyrillic alphabet.
You must be the only Romanian unaware of this.


- My boys? you mean our grandparents? Yes they fought
- against USSR because USSR took by ultimatum (June
- '40) historical romanian provinces, Bessarabia and
- northern Bukovina. What should romanians do? Look
- how romanian population is deported from Bessarabia
- to Siberia and replaced with other displaced
- population from all over the USSR, so that today
- there are only 65% romanian population in the
- region? Probably yes, we should "obey the ruler",
- right?

As a result of entering the First World War on the Allied side in 1916, Romania was rewarded in 1919 with the award of Bukovina from Austria and Transylvania and Banat from Hungary. The Romanian government also seized Bessarabia from Russia.
Perhaps the Russians were only reclaiming what was rightfully theirs?

- You want me to believe you that British and
- Americans raged this war to save the Jewish
- population in Europe??

No.

The extent of Nazi repression
- against Jewish population was not known during the
- war.

Yes it was. The British cabinet was reading Enigma intercepts from the four Einsatzgruppen (German death squads operating in Russia) within hours of them being submitted to the SD (Heydich's SS Intelligence Section). "Another 5000 Jews liquidated."

MI6 was listening to German radio transmissions. I have seen a filmed interview with a British translator who stated that it was heart rending to sit in England and listen to German transmissions such as " Today 300 Jewish women and children were chased into the marshes around Lvov. I am pleased to report that all were successfully liquidated."

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 08:42 PM
helgstrand wrote:
- AFJ_Locust wrote:
- Yeah I agree, the nazi conspiracy goes very deep,
- Where did all the nazi scientists go?


Ever hear of the US space program? The dad of a guy I work with came from nazi germany... became a scientist at the space center down in Alabama...

The Russian space program?

I just read an iteresting article that the TA-183 is what became the mig-15....

<img src=http://home.insightbb.com/%7Edspinnett/NonSpeed/SpeedToys.jpg </img>
http://hometown.aol.com/spinnetti/

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:04 PM
Hi All,

I have read what you have all said and I am impressed; who needs the Discovery Channel when we have you guyz? I do feel that debating the extent of the attrocities commited by the Third Reich will have no end. What has happened is too much, too big, and beyond anyone's imagination. It was a different time and a different place. This was a terrible mistake that exacted a uncalculatable and priceless cost to humanity. What's worse is that it had happened before and will happen again. It's part of human nature.
My lifelong question has been about the mindset and mantality of the people of that time, or those times. No one ever mentions this. We were not there and can never go there and therefore can never understand. Out of respect for all the victims I really hope we don't stop trying though.
BTW, my grandfather was a Nazi and besides having a deep hatred for the SS and Hitler(which he met on a few occasions)he never killed anyone and I can't imagine he would ever have done so. My father's birth records are stamped with a swastika as are my uncles'. Today, I am very proud to be German, as all peoples should be proud of their blood, but I still don't understand. I will never stop trying though.

Fritz Franzen

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:31 PM
Fritz,
That was the most logical, well thought out thing I've read in a long time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It was a different time. Thank you

Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:55 PM
On the same note Fritz, I'm American and I look back at how we treated Native American populations when we first inhabited this country. It's hard to equate our country now with some of the atrocities that occured in our past. I still love this country though. I like to think it is getting better, but Bosnia, Nigeria, Middle America, and other areas make me realize that human nature can be a bit rough./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif To say the least.
I've always wondered how many Germans during WW2 were caught up in a war they wanted nothing to do with. Soldiers fighting for a cause they didn't believe in. Then again, I bet if you questioned the causes it was a source of death. Phewwww. That is what I have a hard time with. The innocent people who are killed because of the madness of another!
How do Germans perceive Hitler today? I hope this isn't too personal. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Atticus.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:07 PM
It can happen to everyone. During our US civil war, both side of them use POWs as slave labor. in between 1980 and today, Some countries under tight budget and in war, will use POW and "off-ethical" people put on low wage or no pay labor.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 11:46 PM
Franzen wrote:
- What's worse is that it had
- happened before and will happen again. It's part of
- human nature.

Too true and too often forgotten. It could happen again, especially as many people seem to think that Hitler and the Nazis were in some way uniquely evil and, therefore, it won't happen again. They weren't an historical 'one-off,' but they were the biggest threat to civilization in the mid-twentieth century.

It might be convenient to regard the guilty ones as being 'them' (Nazis, Communists, whatever), but they were also human beings like 'us.' The potential is always there. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," William Blake (or was it Edmund Burke? He called for political emancipation in Britain and her colonies, so maybe it was him. It sounds more like the former to me; I'll stick with him. I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong). Whoever said it, it's a thought that bears thinking about.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:03 AM
Spinnetti wrote:
-
- helgstrand wrote:
-- AFJ_Locust wrote:
-- Yeah I agree, the nazi conspiracy goes very deep,
-- Where did all the nazi scientists go?
-
-
- Ever hear of the US space program? The dad of a guy
- I work with came from nazi germany... became a
- scientist at the space center down in Alabama...
-

A lot of US technology came from captured nazi scientists.
The CIA was started by nazis.
The CIA are nazis.
The republicans are nazis.
naziism didn't end with WWII, they are still out there trying to impliment the 4th reich, in more subtle ways than military invasion.

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/ratlines.htm

http://alexconstantine.50megs.com/cia_nazis_and.html

<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/261003-NewSig_06.gif

"Any information that we receive concerning the real world is carefully controlled"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:02 AM
Hi,

Nope, the question isn't too personal, at least not for me. I think most Germans feel similar to the way I feel but they won't get media attention as the NeoNazis do. Hitler was an idiot and a genious all rolled into one, thought the latter was his weaker side. In the beginning he did great things for Germany and it's people but somewhere along the way he either bumped his head pretty hard or took the wrong medication.
Once again, going back to trying to understand the times, I went to "google" and used a few key words for my search; Churchill, 1920's, and anti-semitism. My hunch proved fruitful. After further research(many Jewish sites)I realized that anti-semitism was a global thing with a long history. Hitler was just a little more extreme but I think what happened was in some ways destined to happen. Had it not been Germany it would have been another country. Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to justify what happened. I'm just trying to understand.
I think many Germans feel that history is about to repeat itself. Recent poles done in the E.U. have shown the majority of people think that Israel is the #1 threat to peace at present, followed by the U.S.. Of course this is all based on visible politics, not the real politics.
The real enemies of humanity are humanity in the form of government. Logically a just governing body cannot survive, let alone form any sort of recognizable power. People en mass kill people only when led to do so.Every individual knows the difference between right and wrong but en mass people have no direction and seemingly no conceptual thought. We can call this human nature. We cannot change a million years of natural evolution in a short time and definitely not in our time but we must try anyway.
This is a very deep topic for me and I could go on for hours, days, weeks, forever but I risk having this threat locked. Some have complained that this forum is not for this discussion but I feel it must be talked about anywhere and anytime or the chances of a repeat history will become greater. Just keep in mind that every individual Jew, Black, White, Asian, or any race has a favorite color, song, food and everyone dreams,laughs, cries, and feels pain. Who is better?

Fritz Franzen

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:59 AM
Franzen has a point; the Nazis had plenty of helpers for killing Jews in Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic states as well. But, like in Germany, the anti-jewish sentiment was not universal.

The question of Hitler's real economic success for pre-war Germany though is a moot point, but I suppose he did make people proud to be German again, especially once the easy conquests started. Hitler had a flair for political machinations and oration, but that's about it. Hitler identified himself with Germany's national destiny to a point of lunacy, where his own fate became inseparable from Germany's.

Do you really think the Holocaust was inevitable though, just waiting to happen? If not Hitler then, say, Churchill or de Gaulle? I would beg to differ.

Most political history indicates that it is in fact just societies that survive and prosper. There are countless examples of this and it can be argued that states do not develop without some sense of contract or shared purpose between people and government.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:02 PM
Franzen make a good point.

All of our countries have committed atrocities on one scale or another. Whether it was the Greeks killing 500,000 Albanians in the last century. The Americans deliberately targeting civilian refugees in the Korean War or massacring American Indians and suppressing black ppl till at least the 1960s. The Aussies murdering Aborigines. Many of the European countries did bad things with their colonies, the French in Algeria, the Brits all over the world, and the Italians with Ethiopia. The Germans during WWII, the Russians from 1930s to present day with Chechnya.

All of our countries have been perpetrators of terrible crimes against humanities.

What makes me sick is the way certain ppl are saying the Germans (or who ever) were the worst because of a body count. This just shows how inhuman so many ppl on this board are. The gloating that goes on over the Germans and the way not a day goes by where they are not allowed to forget their past. I suspect the people I am talking about wouldn't even realise that I am referring to them.

I hope there should be more sense from the ppl who post on this board but no doubt there will be another idiotic post saying "but the Germans killed more ppl that the Brithish did with their colonies" etc etc




<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 12:46 PM
DKP wrote:
- Franzen make a good point.
-
- All of our countries have committed atrocities on
- one scale or another. Whether it was the Greeks
- killing 500,000 Albanians in the last century. The
- Americans deliberately targeting civilian refugees
- in the Korean War or massacring American Indians and
- suppressing black ppl till at least the 1960s. The
- Aussies murdering Aborigines. Many of the European
- countries did bad things with their colonies, the
- French in Algeria, the Brits all over the world, and
- the Italians with Ethiopia. The Germans during WWII,
- the Russians from 1930s to present day with
- Chechnya.
-
- All of our countries have been perpetrators of
- terrible crimes against humanities.
-
- What makes me sick is the way certain ppl are saying
- the Germans (or who ever) were the worst because of
- a body count.

I can't see how this can make you sick. There is a world of difference between a nation that kills one person wrongly and a nation that kills millions wrongly.

- This just shows how inhuman so many
- ppl on this board are. The gloating that goes on
- over the Germans and the way not a day goes by where
- they are not allowed to forget their past. I suspect
- the people I am talking about wouldn't even realise
- that I am referring to them.

Only an idiot would hold modern Germans responsible for things that happened before they were born and I don't see any attempt to do it here. In fact, one of the best things about modern Germany is its unwavering determination to build a just and democratic society. Impressive and admirable.

-- I hope there should be more sense from the ppl who
- post on this board but no doubt there will be
- another idiotic post saying "but the Germans killed
- more ppl that the Brithish did with their colonies"
- etc etc
-

But it wouldn't be an idiotic post at all.

The idiotic posts belong to the "we're all guilty" school of thought that tries to make out that Churchill was no different from Hitler. Such crude moral relativism is unconvincing. No matter how you want to look at it, the simple fact remains that very few nations in their recent history have attempted a methodical organised genocide of the sort and scale that the Nazis attempted. To take the "examples" from your first paragraph, in real life no American government ever sat down and said "how can we kill all Koreans?". No British government ever sat down and said "How can we kill all Indians?" (meaning the inhabitants of India). But a German government did sit down and plan to exterminate all Jews. You know this. To then claim that the lack of civil right in America was the moral equivalent of the death camps is not just wrong, it's grotesque.

This is not to say that people haven't died as a result of empire building by Britain or America. I'm sure many people have. But the difference is that these empires regarded their cultures as superior to others and so set about imposing them on the world. The Nazis regarded themselves as racially superior, and you can't impose race on a person, you can only stop a race from existing. So when the British empire tried to remake the world in the image of Victorian Britain the Indians ended up with a civil service, public transport and playing cricket whether they wanted it or not. But they didn't end up in death camps.

Regards,

RocketDog.






Message Edited on 11/09/0311:47AM by RocketDog

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 01:28 PM
RocketDog wrote:

To then claim that the lack of civil right in America was the moral equivalent of the death camps is not just wrong, it's grotesque.

I did not say it was the moral equivalent. I said that all of our countries have perpetrated attrocities. On one scale or another. The scale is the only thing that is different. I am not saying that 1000 is the same as 5 million. But to the individuals who were killed it is the same. I am sure the North American Indians concider what was done to them as their own personal holcaust, albeit on a much smaller scale.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:28 PM
DKP wrote:
- RocketDog wrote:
-
-- To then claim that the lack of civil right in
-- America was the moral equivalent of the death camps
-- is not just wrong, it's grotesque.
-
- I did not say it was the moral equivalent. I said
- that all of our countries have perpetrated
- attrocities. On one scale or another. The scale is
- the only thing that is different. I am not saying
- that 1000 is the same as 5 million. But to the
- individuals who were killed it is the same. I am
- sure the North American Indians concider what was
- done to them as their own personal holcaust, albeit
- on a much smaller scale.

Sorry DKP, but when you say, "scale is the only thing that is different" and "I am sure the North American Indians consider what was done to them as their own personal holocaust," it does sound like you make them morally equivalent. If scale was the only difference, then presumably, morally they were equivalent. RD's point was that no one in the US sat down and decided to extereminate all Native Americans, even if US policy did result in many of them dieing nonetheless.

But you're right that every nation has committed crimes. Humans commit crimes and we're all human. No nation has a monopoly on the 'good' guys.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:13 PM
DKP wrote:
- What makes me sick is the way certain ppl are saying
- the Germans (or who ever) were the worst because of
- a body count.

That put me in mind of something a Leader once said:

"One death is a tragedy, one million are a statistic"

So you subscribe to his view of events?

Or do you appreciate that the one million are all individual tragedies in themself, each and every one?




"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall