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GAINS10
01-18-2010, 12:43 PM
So if Altair and Ezio are desendents of Desmond. How is it that subject 16 Was able to be Ezio at one point? Its been said that they have to be a genetic match right so if both Subject 16 and Desmond are able to match with Ezio Does that mean that Subject 16 was related to Desmond in some way? Maybe thats how they found Desmond and needed him, Ezios father had 3 sons and in the context im assuming that story is Altairs' it mentions he had sons and so on and so on...So how do we know that Ezio didnt have 2 sons? So Desmond could be the younger brother the way Ezio. And the DNA of Altair is transfered only to one specific son, of his decendents, hence it explains the scar on their lips. Unless they start to explain all this in the upcoming realeases i dont see why it would be a trilogy, but then again they said Medal Gear 4 was the last one at some point, too.

TheEpicWolf
01-18-2010, 01:19 PM
He wasn't Ezio he followed and ancestor of his in Italy and it just so happens Desmonds memories matched his. In place but not person http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SWJS
01-18-2010, 01:27 PM
Desmond's memories never mached Subject 16's. In the Animus 1.0, The animus was searching for the matching DNA of the subject inside, not comparing the DNA of 16 and 17. The Animus said it found a match with subject 17 because 17 was in the animus, not because Subject 17s DNA matched that of 16.

I don't know why so many people get that mixed up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

jimbo11235813
01-18-2010, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
Desmond's memories never mached Subject 16's. In the Animus 1.0, The animus was searching for the matching DNA of the subject inside, not comparing the DNA of 16 and 17. The Animus said it found a match with subject 17 because 17 was in the animus, not because Subject 17s DNA matched that of 16.

I don't know why so many people get that mixed up. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Actually Ezio is likely to be an ancestor of both. If the search showed words "subject 16" as well as Desmond's name, I think it would have involved him in some way. Secondly, when the search begins it highlights parts of both DNA strands.

To search for anything, you need specific information. For the animus, finding a specific ancestor is difficult without knowing the DNA sequence. Where did Lucy find the DNA sequence originally? That's probably why Subject 16 was on screen during the search.

P.S. (spoilers) <span class="ev_code_WHITE"> Gains10: My theory about how they found Altair was while observing Subject 16's memories, they found Ezio who talked alot about Altair. But before finding out about what happens in the Vault, Subject 16 goes crazy because of the bleeding effect. They can no longer use him as he kills himself (if I remember correctly) and through a DNA database record (which is possible) they found a match...Desmond.</span>

SWJS
01-18-2010, 07:37 PM
Um... no. The animus only highlights Desmond's DNA strand after it confirms a match, it then brings Desmond's forward and 16s disappeared. Nothing between the two was ever matched.

The only reason it showed 16s was because he was the last subject. Kinda like your web browser history.

FoxMcKalen
01-18-2010, 07:56 PM
As I recall, the Animus said "DNA match found." Maybe not exactly like that, but it definitely said something about a match. In order to use the word "match," you need two separate subjects that relate to each other in some way. And since it only showed Subject 16 and Subject 17 on the screen before it came up with a match, then it really should be quite obvious that Ezio is a common ancestor between Desmond and Subject 16. Besides, if Ezio's genetic memories hadn't come around to Abstergo before Desmond arrived, then how would Subject 16 have manipulated Ezio's memory programming with all those symbols and puzzles?

"The only reason it showed 16s was because he was the last subject. Kinda like your web browser history."

Makes absolutely no sense. The Animus itself said that Lucy had triggered a search for a memory match. As stated above, to have a match with something, you can't have only one subject. And the Animus is a little too advanced to leave its previous subject's memory data on screen without reason. You can store data without displaying it for the world to see. The only reason Subject 16's data would be on screen would be if Lucy had specifically called it up. And from a more realistic point of view, why would Ubisoft have put that there in such a prominent spot if it didn't mean anything?

DLTyrus
01-18-2010, 08:13 PM
I think Subject 16 simply also has an ancestor from the same period and thus how he is able to place glyphs on the landmarks. I don't reckon it'll be Ezio, though, I'll only believe that once I hear it in game.

GAINS10
01-18-2010, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by DLTyrus:
I think Subject 16 simply also has an ancestor from the same period and thus how he is able to place glyphs on the landmarks. I don't reckon it'll be Ezio, though, I'll only believe that once I hear it in game.

Exactly the point i was trying to make Maybe Ezios' Brother was subject 16s' memories or his Uncle Or even his Father. Who ever it is we might have met him within the game not knowing who subject 16 played a role in Ezios' time. Might be far fetched but it would explain alot....

SWJS
01-18-2010, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by FoxMcKalen:
As I recall, the Animus said "DNA match found." Maybe not exactly like that, but it definitely said something about a match. In order to use the word "match," you need two separate subjects that relate to each other in some way. And since it only showed Subject 16 and Subject 17 on the screen before it came up with a match, then it really should be quite obvious that Ezio is a common ancestor between Desmond and Subject 16. Besides, if Ezio's genetic memories hadn't come around to Abstergo before Desmond arrived, then how would Subject 16 have manipulated Ezio's memory programming with all those symbols and puzzles?

"The only reason it showed 16s was because he was the last subject. Kinda like your web browser history."

Makes absolutely no sense. The Animus itself said that Lucy had triggered a search for a memory match. As stated above, to have a match with something, you can't have only one subject. And the Animus is a little too advanced to leave its previous subject's memory data on screen without reason. You can store data without displaying it for the world to see. The only reason Subject 16's data would be on screen would be if Lucy had specifically called it up. And from a more realistic point of view, why would Ubisoft have put that there in such a prominent spot if it didn't mean anything? The animus said it found a match because it was scanning for Desmond and recognized his DNA signature. In technological terms, you can find a match without having two different things. Take a web search for example. Typing in a phrase brings up the best answer because it searches for the best match.

It's the exact same principle with the animus. The animus is nothing more than a giant computer. When someone enters it, it scans their DNA for the same signature in it's databank.

In your web browser, often times old searches will appear as you type in a new one. Once again, it is the exact same thing with the animus.

16 was the very last subject to enter it, so of course, when it scans for his DNA signature and doesn't find it, it moves on to the next available signature. It finds a match with Desmond, as he is currently the one in the machine being scanned. Therefore, when it's done scanning, it moves 16's info out of the way and zooms in on Desmonds, then opens his file.

It makes complete sense.

THAT is why 16 was brought up. Not because Lucy brought it up.

There was never a DNA match between Desmond and Subject 16.

GAINS10
01-18-2010, 09:08 PM
that makes sense

FoxMcKalen
01-18-2010, 09:37 PM
It doesn't matter if it makes sense. All that matters is what was going through the minds of the people responsible for that tidbit. Did they intend it to be as you describe? Or did they intend it to be a more straightforward hint, that Ezio is a common ancestor? If, as you say, the Animus ruled out Subject 16 as a DNA match, then I imagine 16 would fade from the screen as the machine moved on and forgot about it. Not the case. 16 stayed on screen as 17 was added, and then "Match found" is announced. It never explicitly says there's a common bond between the two, but it sort of slaps you in the face. It doesn't really need to spell it out.

Also, as I said, this is an advanced machine. You'd think it would be smart enough to realize that the person at the controls wanted it to do a search on the current subject, the one currently in the machine, not the one who came before. What you're saying is that Lucy would have input a command that basically said "Look for this memory pattern in Subject 17." But then it goes off and scans Subject 16 first? That just wouldn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

SWJS
01-18-2010, 10:46 PM
I should mention something else. Their DNA couldn't possibly match because every single person's genetic makeup is different.

And 16's did move to the side to make way for Desmond. 16s came up first and Desmond's didn't appear until a bit later. Also, just after the animus declares it has found a match, 16s leaves the screen. If it matched with 16, why would it eject 16s and move on to Desmonds? That doesn't make sense either.

No matter how advanced a machine is, no machine would ever be smart enough to think for itself. A machine is only as smart as it's programmed to be.

Also, Lucy could have typed in "Search for most recent DNA signature." There's nothing saying she was specific with the computer.

No matter how you look at it, there is no possible way they could have matched, and no possible way we could tell what Lucy did.

kyleagius
01-19-2010, 04:14 AM
@EzioTheAssassin: That is true what you say but in your reason of the negative lies the answer to the positive, the genes within the DNA.
You do not need to be genetically identical to a person to be related to them do you?

Picture it like this:
My eldest cousin on my fathers side is captured by Abstergo because my fathers family are related to some traitor Templars who helped the Assassins to hide a previously unknown POE, but my cousin does what subject 16 does and kills himself before the animus can find the memory they are searching for and after this they need to find somebody who can access the same memory for them.
I am then abducted by them as despite not being genetically identical to my cousin we still share the genes from my grandfathers family and they find the memory whether the gene it's stored in as if you look at the animus logically and what Vidic -I think- said about even our deepest instincts actually being genetic memories from ancient ancestors.
If we use this information then, aside from the probable occasional annomalies, all people who have a gene from a specific ancestor can access that gene and view their life up to the conception of their child which carries the parents gene into your family because then the gene is passed on and so are the memories from the ancestor you were originally viewing and if you look at it like this you could theoretically view the entire human race through your ancestor's eyes from start to the present day following the gene from one ancestor to the next all -in theory- without leaving the animus if you wished to!

So in my personal logical explanation Subject 16 is undoubtedly related to Desmond and the animus was looking for a matching gene, but in the general where Lucy directed it to as she knew subject 16 spent a lot of time as Ezio specifically so he may not even be the last common ancestor Desmond and 16 share they and the way Lucy would be able to find the area of time that contained Ezio would be because the animus records all sessions and so she can use it as a sort of genetic reference point/map to finding Ezio's memories from within Desmond as it would presumably keep track of the specific gene or part of the gene Ezio's memories are from and direct Desmond to them via the animus 2.0 due to the animus 1.625's (My reasoning led to me naming the original games animus this due to the sheer ammount of prototypes and test subjects they used previously) memory core or something along those lines and Lucy syncing Desmond with Ezio and saving the links onto the memory core so they could access Ezio's memories easier when it was uploaded to the Animus 2.0
[/rant]

-K

jimbo11235813
01-19-2010, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
No matter how you look at it, there is no possible way they could have matched, and no possible way we could tell what Lucy did.
OK. I'll show you the impossible then.
Watch the beginning scan/search thing again, but turn the brightness to a lower setting than normal so you can see the DNA strands more clearly. I have watched it several times to ensure I get this right.

Desmond's name appears first with his DNA, THEN Subject 16 and his DNA. First point, if she had Ezio's DNA in a database or if she was just looking for a nearby ancestor, why did Subject 16 come up (unless that's where its stored)?

Then specific nucleotides in subject 16's DNA gets highlighted. Second point, why would it search Subject 16 first when Desmond came up first? Also, why would the Highlighted parts of Subject 16's DNA remain highlighted if they weren't necessary?

Then it starts searching Desmond, with lines appearing going from Subject 16's DNA to Desmond's DNA. Third point, although the lines are random (and don't link with the highlighted pieces of DNA)and appear before highlighting Subject 16's DNA, they still go from one DNA strand to the other, which suggests that its trying match specific DNA sequences.

Then the match is found, both names fade and then moves Desmond's name to where "Accessing memory...". Fourth point, a match means that two items are identical. In this case, two sequences of DNA.

If that isn't proof, then I don't know what is.

Captain Tomatoz
01-19-2010, 10:14 AM
Ezio may have had to kids http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PlagueDoctor357
01-19-2010, 11:42 AM
It's like everyone here is saying.

Desmond and 16 were the only ones in that particular Animus because Viddic found Italy so interesting towards the end of their work and both of them had ancestors there.

There were literally hundreds of smaller animuses in the area but only the two assassins from that time that knew something important were locked up.

The thing was just searching for matches, and locks onto 17 when it finds it.


He is in no way related to 16, and i'll say that as fact.

Being im a Canadian, I know how my kinsmen think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Haha obviously that's a joke but I think they just figured people would pick up on it right.


After all, they also thought everyone would pick up on Lucy bending her finger back.

Apparently some people couldn't figure that out either.

They put to much faith into the story bringing in people when they have such awesome kill moves that it attracts the stab stab kill and not care about story or pay attention people too.

SWJS
01-19-2010, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
It's like everyone here is saying.

Desmond and 16 were the only ones in that particular Animus because Viddic found Italy so interesting towards the end of their work and both of them had ancestors there.

There were literally hundreds of smaller animuses in the area but only the two assassins from that time that knew something important were locked up.

The thing was just searching for matches, and locks onto 17 when it finds it.


He is in no way related to 16, and i'll say that as fact.

Being im a Canadian, I know how my kinsmen think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Haha obviously that's a joke but I think they just figured people would pick up on it right.


After all, they also thought everyone would pick up on Lucy bending her finger back.

Apparently some people couldn't figure that out either.

They put to much faith into the story bringing in people when they have such awesome kill moves that it attracts the stab stab kill and not care about story or pay attention people too. THANK YOU! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

There is no relation between Desmond and subject 16. The animus claims it has found a match because it has scanned Desmond and recognized HIS signature. Lucy didn't pull both of them up on screen, because she did say they were short on time and she wanted Desmond in the animus that very minute. Why? Because live every computer, scanning takes a few minutes. She would have been wasting time if she were trying to find a match between the two people, as it has no relation to the plot what-so-ever.

End of story.

GAINS10
01-19-2010, 06:38 PM
Ok hows this maybe Desmon is really Neo "the one" and The animus is What makes them jump into the matrix thats why theres so many in the beggining when you try to escape.....or maybe we are just reading to much into this now? But its fun to think up different scenerious, dont you all agree?

jimbo11235813
01-20-2010, 07:59 AM
You can't apply real life rules in games. The animus is a powerful machine. It can create environments, character, noises just from looking at DNA, without taking minutes at a time of translate them. Whose to say it can't search through DNA as fast as it did.

Here are my reasons behind my theory as to why they are related:

1- The Glyphs: There locations were put in by 16, but the locations are based on the memory of his ancestor. Apart from Ezio, what other assassins are there that we know went to these locations (Venice, Forli, etc.)

2- 16's obsession with Italy: Lucy says he was obsessed with Italy, and believes it was because of the Vault. Ezio was the only one who knew exactly what happened in the Vault. Others may have heard about it, but to create an obsession, 16 would have needed to know it. (Abstergo may not have seen it as some of the sessions had gone missing). This may be one of the reasons why Lucy wanted Ezio.

3- Lucy WANTED Ezio: Lucy knew Desmond had an ancestor in Italy and who he was. It's unlikely that she read about him in a book, or that the animus knew who he was (as the subject has to live through the memories to get a video of the ancestor's life, otherwise Abstergo would have the Piece of Eden map when they put Desmond in.) She knew Ezio only became an assassin when he was older. She must have known about him through a Subject (most likely 16 as she worked with him, and if I remember correctly, only him.)

4- Finding Desmond: Finding Desmond would have been hard to do without a DNA to compare with, they had to get the Gene sequence from some where (even just the Eagle Vision gene would do). They lost 16 and the only reason they brought Desmond in was because they needed to see Altair's life. Ezio talked alot about Altair and the codex pages.

5- 16's DNA: I bring this up again and again because it is crucial to my theory. Desmond and his DNA was brought up when he gets in the animus in AC2. It knows it him. Then 16 and his DNA. It searches 16 first, then highlights different nucleotides, then search Desmond's DNA. Why? Because its important. Its to tell the audience "this is 16's DNA, and this is Desmond's. They are linked. Now work out how." Then it says something like memory sequence match, i.e. a sequence of DNA (NOT the DNA on its own) matches with another sequence. It only removes 16 when you access the memory. Up to that point, 16 still has highlighted nucleotides.

This I must emphasise. This is a theory. There is no solid fact that I know of. The evidence I have seen against my theory isn't compelling (e.g. comparing a web browser or a normal computer to the Animus' programming. One designed for fast internet surfing, the other for reading DNA and forcing the subject to see the memory.) If you know a good thread that is opposed to my theory, I'd enjoy reading it.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-20-2010, 08:35 AM
Of course Subj 16 and Desmond are related! They share the common ancestors of Esio and Altair. I don't see why that is even arguable, because it is not only made apparent in the cut-scene of DNA/memory sequence comparison that starts AC2, but it is apparent by the whole premise of the story and the way the Animus works... Both subjects (and likely also subjects 1-15 before them) are at Abstergo because they are in the Assassin bloodline (related) and can retreive memories of their Assassin ancestors to reveal POEs for Abstergo. If Subj 16 was not related to Ezio he would not have been able to live as Ezio and know where to plant glyph msgs for the next subject he assumed would be forced to relive those memories like Subj 16 was before he offed himself. Desmond was brought in to continue what Subj 16 was doing before his death, find POEs through ancestral memories. Subj 16 knew this and left msgs in blood and glyphs where the next subject, another relative retreiving them and possibly having eagle vision, could find them. Already having Altairs memories at the start of AC2, Lucy is taking the core memories of Ezio that was in Animus from subj 16 so they can use them in Animus 2.0 for Desmond's own access. That is what the cutscene is illustrating.

jpshark
01-20-2010, 09:46 AM
When you "match" DNA, you're finding a unique persons unique DNA, not finding two people with the same DNA which has already been pointed out as being impossible...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-20-2010, 09:53 AM
You are actually matching memory sequences. DNA just happens to be the vehicle, the platform, on which that phenomenon occurs. Of course DNA is unique, just like an individual, but what is in common about the DNA between two people gets matched up. Matched DNA means same ancestors, so same accessible memories via Animus. That is what the cutscene was showing, Lucy finding common DNA between Subj 16 and 17, and thus common ancestors (related) and thus common accessible memories (Ezio). She then takes this memory core for use in Animus 2.0. That makes it easier to access Ezio because they are building on existing memories that matched. The Assassins state that in a later cutscene at their base, that because of the stolen Animus core matched memory, their job will be easier/faster.

FoxMcKalen
01-20-2010, 09:55 AM
No one's saying they have identical or even mostly identical DNA. We're talking about a common ancestor and common genetic memories, which is anything but impossible.

Finding these genetic memories doesn't require two people to have the same genes. It only requires two people to have descended from the same person.

GAINS10
01-20-2010, 10:01 AM
So if they didnt have the core, lets say for some reason in the game Lucy droped it during the escape, would they still be able to access Ezio even tho there was no core? plus if they could how do you explain that both 16 and Desmond were there at the same time and place. The DNA may not match one another but if there are two seperate people in that time frame. Then the memories do match and thats what the Animus looks for, some kind of picture or event that took place, when both whoever Subject 16 was in the past and Ezio who is Desmond.

So who is Subject 16 then? Leonardo his friend whos good with puzzles his uncle Mario? who?

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-20-2010, 10:30 AM
Remember that the "matched memory" between Subj 16 and 17 that Lucy searches for and finds via DNA comparison is of the BIRTH OF ENZIO. This shows that Subj 16 and 17 both remember Enzio's first life moments and are therefore in the same bloodline as Enzio (related).

Because Desmond has Enzio's memories somewhere in his DNA (just like Subj 16 does), it would have been possible to retreive it without the stolen core memory but 1) it may have been more difficult because you are not building on memory retreival already there from Subj 16, and 2) you would not have had subj 16's msgs (glyphs) because he hacked those into _Abstergo's_ memory core of Enzio memory sequences.

Animus subjects are only replaying what happened to their ancestors in time x, not actually reliving anything or time-travelling. If you go too far from the life that was actually lived (like kill many civilians), you desynchronize because that is not what actually happened. Subject 16 could enter Animus any time and replay day X of Ezio's life separately or simultaneously. It is just memories replaying. Subject 16 placed msgs/glyphs in the memory core, which he may have done while living Ezio or just behind the Animus terminal. The msgs were not planted in Ezio's life, they were planted in the Animus memory files of his life. Point is they are related, have some of same ancestral memories, and the reason Assassin's get to see subj 16's messages is because they took Abstergo's core (where subj 16 put msgs) instead of built their own with Desmond.

Brett_Master5
01-20-2010, 01:34 PM
I've said it before, I don't think that 16 and Desmond are related. I don't think that 16 was an ancestor of Ezio's either. Else they wouldn't need Desmond.

Someone said this before in the thread. Ezio could have met 16's ancestor in his journey and we might not have known about it.

I think Lucy was searching for a specific time period. She knew that 16 spent a lot of time in Italy in the late 1400's, and prolly searched within Desmonds DNA strand for a matching memory sequence related to that time period and country of origin.

I'm sure the Animus would allow you to search for other variables within the DNA.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-20-2010, 01:52 PM
Abstergo needs Desmond ONLY because Subject 16 offed himself before providing what Abstergo wanted from him. Desmond, the next subject, 17, is the replacement who Abstergo found and plucked from his bartender job for this purpose. That was all stated in AC1. Therefore they MUST HAVE COMMON ANCESTRY to access common memories like the life of Altair and Ezio.

Everyone is entitled to opinions and interpretations of this awesome storyline, but the plot has shown the fact that Ezio and Altair are ancestral memories COMMON to both subj 16 and 17. Again, the only ones present at the birth of Ezio (the memory that matched subj 16 and 17 at start of AC2) was baby Ezio, daddy, mommy, a midwife. Do you think Subject 16 is one of those people? They are ALSO related to Ezio. Facts establish subj 16 and 17 are related.

jimbo11235813
01-20-2010, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Brett_Master5:
I've said it before, I don't think that 16 and Desmond are related. I don't think that 16 was an ancestor of Ezio's either. Else they wouldn't need Desmond.
...
I think Lucy was searching for a specific time period. She knew that 16 spent a lot of time in Italy in the late 1400's, and prolly searched within Desmonds DNA strand for a matching memory sequence related to that time period and country of origin.
But how can a machine know exactly what year to go to, which Italian ancestor to go take the subject to. 16's being related to Desmond through Ezio is the only possiblity, unless Lucy dug up Ezio's son (as the son would have the memory DNA that Desmond would have), took a DNA sample, and plan an escape in a week without leaving the building or arousing suspicion is impossible.

My last point is that 16 killed himself, so if Abstergo did have more to do, they couldn't do it without finding another ancestor of Altair (to find the Piece of Eden map).

SWJS
01-20-2010, 06:06 PM
I have a request for the mods. Could we possibly get some type of clarification to the current argument from Corey May himself, please?

bsimcox
01-20-2010, 09:13 PM
I second that request!

Brett_Master5
01-21-2010, 03:08 AM
Lucy was a part of the studies of subject 16.

Lets say for example that 16's memories in Italy were taken place in 1430. The Renassaince (sp) wasn't just the period in which the game is taking place. It was a period of 200 years right? I can't remember off hand how long exactly. At that point Lucy would put in "search Subject 17 DNA strand; memory match 1400 to 1600; country origin Italy" or some other such search string, and it would locate the closest possible match. It just so happened to be the birth of Ezio.

Most people are assuming the Animus is simply a gene matching program, which it isn't. It's a computer just like the ones we use. One that can find variables within variables.

There is no proof that 16 knew anything about the vault. He killed himself because all of the memories were bleeding into one giant mess in his head. Not because he knew he was going to find the vault so wanted to stop the Templars. His role is being taken out of context.

jimbo11235813
01-21-2010, 12:09 PM
OK. Lets use the computer analogy. Say you wanted to find a particular animal for a piece of homework/coursework/work. You don't know the species name (DNA sequence), but you know what type of animal it is and where its from. Take for example, you want to research a particular Caiman from Peru, but don't know what there names are, just what the one you want looks like. There are three, but to hurry you use google's "feeling lucky." There's a roughly 1 in three chance of getting particular Caiman. Using a species name would ensure 100% chance of finding the one you want.

Now, lets say It's similar to the animus (probably not as it uses genes, not computer data, to produce sound and images), you search time range and country of origin and start searching. It finds Ezio. Why? he's unlikely to be the last Italian in the family seeing how close he gets the female thief (can't remember her name, and his child must be born a few years after the game) or it could've found his Father, and time for the animus is difficult to estimate accurately seeing as they need to force the subject to go through the ancestors life to get information about the ancestors' lives.

Like google, the animus would take time to search for a particular ancestor with an unknown DNA sequence, and like EzioTheAssassin said, Lucy was in a hurry. But with a specific gene sequence, it would be quicker.

GAINS10
01-21-2010, 02:59 PM
Has anyone played bloodlines? I heard that it ties in both AC1 and 2. Just wanted to know what the connection was, does it tell the story of whats on the codex? ** POSSIBLE SPOILER ** I also heard that his first love dies and he finds another is all i know or am i wrong? Im expecting the game through mail sometime this week so i havnt had a chance yet to play it yet.

Brett_Master5
01-22-2010, 03:58 AM
The time it would take for google to make a search for the species is milliseconds.

The Animus is a much more high powered, more advanced computing system. I'm sure it wouldn't take more a fraction of the time for it to find the two variables.

The first game started at a particular point in time in Altairs life, which would strongly indicate that it's more than possible for the Animus to search for dates and country of origin. Not to mention it does store data else video of the memories wouldn't be able to be replayed.

Not to mention it's not like Lucy is using the force to search for a possible match between the two. She did aid in the Animus' construction and programming. So she'd know exactly what she was doing to speed the process up.

ShadowriverUB
01-22-2010, 07:50 AM
I think Lucy was searching for a specific time period. She knew that 16 spent a lot of time in Italy in the late 1400's, and prolly searched within Desmonds DNA strand for a matching memory sequence related to that time period and country of origin.

I'm sure the Animus would allow you to search for other variables within the DNA.

*SPOILERS*

Lusy searched Subject 16 not becouse he was obsessed with Italy, but she suspect him to know the Vault whereabout, if it's true this at least this mean Subject 16 ancestor is one of assassins that as helping Ezio and probably didn't revised message from Minerwa... on other hand he could have Ezio genetic memory and hear the message that suppose to go to Desmond and this is why he become obsessed, but then Abstergo would get a message first.

jimbo11235813
01-22-2010, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by ShadowriverUB:
...on other hand he could have Ezio genetic memory and hear the message that suppose to go to Desmond and this is why he become obsessed, but then Abstergo would get a message first.
That's what I was thinking. But, as Lucy says, some of the later animus sessions are missing, so Abstergo may not actually know anything that happened during those sessions.

TBH, I think this is the biggest clue that 16 was Ezio because the Vault was quite near the end of Ezio's genetic memories (assuming he had children soon after) and the bleeding effect may have let 16 see bits and pieces of the events in or involving the Vault before actually seeing it undisturbed using the animus (I say undisturbed as, by the sounds of it in AC2, he can't control what areas he sees, however he either knows his history really well, or he can 'remember' what his ancestors remember. E.g. What century his mind is in.*).

Once again, just a theory based on what I've seen and heard in the game.

*Final note: I'm guessing the animus can control the visions of ancestral memories better than the subject can through the bleeding effect.

GAINS10
01-22-2010, 01:07 PM
**SPOILER**
If Ezio was the only one in the Vault and Desmond saw this then 16 must have too. In that sence 16 realized the message was not ment for him, we can all assume it was a recording left behind by Minerva, So 16 left the clues for the right person to come which is Desmond. Now that being said Both 16 and Desmond are related if only one person, Ezio, was in the room and both saw this message one can only assume that Ezio was both part of their bloodline.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-22-2010, 02:11 PM
[HEAVEY SPOILERS]
Subject 16 is related to Desmond and has same ancestors. Desmond was only a replacement of the suicidal subj 16 for Abstergo, who needed a relative to continue where subj 16 left off. Abstergo needed same DNA that holds same memories to find POEs, so they knew who to look for - the relative Desmond. They found him via his motorcycle license application. That is all from AC1, but start of AC2 further establishes they are relatives because matching memories are found in the matching pieces of DNA (which relatives have). That common match was memory of Ezio. So, Ezio is common ancestor or both subjects. I hope that is established.

Now, both AC1 and AC2 also provide evidence that Subject 16 likely saw the vault hologram of Minverva, or at least came to know the same message it imparts. The symbols he writes on the wall in blood include refereces to a) 12/21/2012 b) the galactic alignment c) the mayan 13th baktun (which is 12/21/20012) and other such obvious symbols of impending doom as prophecized. That is essentially the gist of what Minerva also imparts to Desmond via Ezio.

It is also possible that when Subj16 lived as Ezio (which he did since there are memories core of Ezio taken from Abstergo's animus), he viewed the same Minerva hologram but it addressed him - Neumann - instead of the name Desmond. How? Because the hologram addresses Desmond who happens to be the present-tense viewer through the prophet Ezio. The hologram may therefore programmed to address whoever is doing that viewing, be it Subj 16 or Desmond or some other relative. Notice Minerva asks to touch the apple. In touching the apple that Ezio is also touching, the technology of hologram and apple may at that time determine who living Ezio's memory through an Animus. The Animu is based on the technology of the First Civilization, TWCB, after all, so she would know it would eventually be used to do this and only an Assassin (Ezio) would be able to enter the vault. In this way Minverva does not need to be omniscient to time and see into future - just have very very good technological devices and a bit of foresight that humans would create eventually use genetic memory technology to view her little hologram.

Last possibility I will offer here for those into this higher level spoiler speculation stuff: Since Subj 16 proved that animus memories can be "easily" hacked into and things placed into those memories to be viewed by Animus subjects later (all the glyphs for Desmond to find when living as Ezio)... is it not possible that SOMEONE ELSE, like those nasty Templars who own many Animae, simply hacked into and placed that hologram of Minerva into the vault for present-day Desmond to see - a big red herring to distract Desmond while they pursue their 12/21/2012 agenda? Hmmmmm....

Krayus Korianis
01-22-2010, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by DLTyrus:
I think Subject 16 simply also has an ancestor from the same period and thus how he is able to place glyphs on the landmarks. I don't reckon it'll be Ezio, though, I'll only believe that once I hear it in game.

Subject 16 went through his memories. and placed those glyphs across the DNA Strands of Ezio Auditore da Firenze. Subject 16 was a descendant of Ezio Auditore, same as Desmond was of Ezio Auditore. Ezio Auditore was also a descendant of AltaÔr Ibn-La'Ahad and the Templar, Maria.

Turn on Subtitles (ACII) and Read the messages across both games.

SWJS
01-22-2010, 11:55 PM
Now, both AC1 and AC2 also provide evidence that Subject 16 likely saw the vault hologram of Minverva, or at least came to know the same message it imparts. The symbols he writes on the wall in blood include refereces to a) 12/21/2012 b) the galactic alignment c) the mayan 13th baktun (which is 12/21/20012) and other such obvious symbols of impending doom as prophecized. That is essentially the gist of what Minerva also imparts to Desmond via Ezio.
Actually that was the date Abstergo planned to launch their satelite.

Subject 16 went through his memories. and placed those glyphs across the DNA Strands of Ezio Auditore da Firenze. Subject 16 was a descendant of Ezio Auditore, same as Desmond was of Ezio Auditore. Ezio Auditore was also a descendant of AltaÔr Ibn-La'Ahad and the Templar, Maria. Um... no. 16 hacked the animus so that he could encode the files into the memory core. He didn't share the same ancestors, he just hacked the animus. The only reason he encoded the files into Italy, was because he, and possibly Vidic, was obssessed with Italy and was forced to live as one of his Italian ancestors. Lucy says herself that she knew Desmond had an ancestor in Italy linked to everything. She never said "I knew you and 16" or "You and 16 had an ancestor". Also, why did Lucy just happen to chose Italy as a training ground? To test out her theories and discover the obssession with it. The glyphs were just computer code, not encoded in the DNA, but in the memory banks. No matter what time period they chose, the glyphs would have still shown up in Italy.

Desmond and Subject 16 are not related, and their DNA did not match.

PlagueDoctor357
01-23-2010, 02:06 AM
Oh my lord (In which I don't believe.)

People either don't pay enough attention, or just don't figure it out.

She ejected a hard drive.

A hard drive in which only two subjects had been entered into.

Thus when searching the "folders" it came across "Chttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif drive and Dhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif drive" like a regular computer would.

Viddic had become obsessed with THAT EXACT PERIOD IN TIME FOR SOME REASON.

Why? Because it's when EZIO, and ONLY EZIO discovered the vault.

He thought he would find it with 16, some random Assassin or maybe even civilian that probably had nothing to do with Ezio or even met him once.

Of course, he didn't and ended up pushing him to far.

Made him kill himself.

We need a new subject now.....Oh right...we own the world.

When the next assassin shows up on our radar (Our owning the world and all.) we'll just snatch him up!


Remember, THEY didn't know that EZIO FOUND MINERVA for Desmond.

MINERVA KNEW THAT THEY WOULD FIND HER.

REMEMBER THIS BECAUSE IT ISN'T THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!

Brett_Master5
01-23-2010, 02:28 AM
If subject 16 ever saw the vault and Minerva's message Abstergo would not have need for Desmond to begin with. Not to mention Minerva says Desmond by name. If 16 had saw the message Minerva would never have had cause to show her face in the hologram.

Minerva is not omnipotent or can see into the future. Those Who Came Before just have a better understanding of how time and space operate.

Time is not a universal operation, but something humans made in order to keep track of when they had things to do.

GAINS10: The story of how the codex came to be strewn about Italy is told in ACII in the Auditore Tomb. You can get it by purchasing it through Uplay. It's a points buy, however the points are given by what achievements you've gained in the game, not MS points. To access UPlay press Y or whatever on your controller at the title menu. You'll have to create your account on there.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-23-2010, 06:13 AM
Both the AC Wikia, the guidebook, and the novel all state that they are related as if it is fact. Even Cory May himself on a Game Insider blog confirms it. If you do not realize this you likely do not understand the premises the game gives you via its own text. Case closed.

Subj 16 could have lived as Ezio and seen vault message during one of the many times he accessed Animus at night without Abstergo over his shoulder. Remember several memories went missing, likely destroyed or hidden by subj 16 so Abstergo would not see it. Also, subj 16 had to have known the assassins would take the Ezio memory core or he would not have hid glyphs in there that Abstergo would have otherwise seen. If he like Lucy knew the value of Ezio's memories that value is the vault. Subj 16 saw the message, and if you understand why, that message addressed him as Newmann instead of Desmond. Even the templars might have seen the vault, they have assassin blood somewhere per the templar maria and altair conception memory. Subject 16 seeing the vault msg and Minvera is likely why he plants THE TRUTH, so next relative in Animus can see "don't trust that Minerva, they made us as their slaves we busted outta eden!"

You must understand that the hologram did not necessarily happen in 1499ish at time Ezio was supposedly viewing it. You (desmond, subj 16, whoever) are not viewing 1499 Italy, you are viewing a man named Ezio's MEMORIES of 1499 Italy. You are just watching a recorded something that happend, that recording (as we see in glyphs) can be messed with.

godsmack_darius
01-23-2010, 11:28 AM
K, let me straighten this up.


Vdic was obsessed with ITALY, after all the damn ancestors he was looking at through subject 16, he found out their was something in Italy,



THEN, Subject 16 went crazy, thereforehe cant look in Italy, But vidic had faith that Desmond had an ancestor in Italy,

Lucy found this out through Vidic as well, and now the Animus looked for a DNA MEMORY SEQIENCE that points to Italy, their is no match. the only "match" is that they both had a ancestor in Italy, so having Ezio as Desmond ancestor, and someone else most likely marco polo, or another un named character is of subject 16s ancestory

jimbo11235813
01-23-2010, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by godsmack_darius:
Vdic was obsessed with ITALY, after all the damn ancestors he was looking at through subject 16, he found out their was something in Italy,

THEN, Subject 16 went crazy, thereforehe cant look in Italy, But vidic had faith that Desmond had an ancestor in Italy,
But Lucy definitely it was 16 who was obsessed with Italy. And if Vidic/Abstergo wanted Desmond for an Italian ancestor, why would he just look at Altair and then order him to be killed in AC1 (then saved by Lucy by saying that they may still need him.)

CEO_of_Abstergo, can you post a link of Corey May's blog about the relationship? It should prove to the others that it's true.

SWJS
01-23-2010, 08:41 PM
Both the AC Wikia, the guidebook, and the novel all state that they are related as if it is fact. Even Cory May himself on a Game Insider blog confirms it. If you do not realize this you likely do not understand the premises the game gives you via its own text. Case closed.
Case not closed. I understand the premises the game gives me just fine. Subject 16 is a mysterious assassin whose origins are unknown. The only things we have of his are the glyphs. Things he created while, mind you, going completely insane. Subject 16 is a mysterious person. Was he credible? What did he really see? We can't know for sure. Only suspect. His memories were all bleeding together.

The AC Wiki is a Wiki. It was created by AC fans, and it can be changed by anyone and everyone. A wiki is about as credible as a note on a napkin. What they wrote on 16 is what we write. Speculation.

Someone recently posted excerpts from the guide. I read nothing about 16 being related to Desmond.

Out of all the topics brought up about the novel, I have only heard Christina and Borgia mentioned, not 16.

Game insider is a magazine I assume? They change things, misinterpret things, etc. They write things like speculation, and they change around words. Did Corey really say they were related?

Simply stating that "some source says it's true so it must be true", does not make it true. Just because you think it's true, doesn't make it true. We don't really know who 16 is for sure, and unless I read something written by Corey May himself stating in his own words that Desmond and 16 are related, I don't believe it. I want absolute, concete proof.

Loxorzz
01-24-2010, 06:24 AM
They must be related. If 16 was in the animus to record the Truth, it means he was related to Adam and Eve. I remember someone saying that all assassains were related to Adam and Eve, which gave them some sort of resistance to the pieces of Eden, but Altair and therefore Ezio were directly descended as they are able to defeat someone with a piece of Eden. This doesn't however mean they are closely related, only that they must be somehow.

It would be funny (and a little ironic) if Ubisoft pulled off the subject 16 was your father plot device, although that wouldn't make sense as there would be more matches at the start of ACII in the cutscene.

PlagueDoctor357
01-24-2010, 11:05 AM
It was Viddic whom was obsessed with Italy, not Lucy or 16. (To the poster up a bit.)

They aren't related, fact.

Like I said, there were 100's of animuses.

But they only needed an Assassin whom had been to italy. Thus they find 16.

Viddic isn't finding what he wants -- The vault.

He pushes 16 to find it, which in turn makes him go insane.

They need a new subject now, so they (Owning the world and all) wait for another Assassin to show up on the grid (They're all off grid now.)

They get Desmond, and use him to get the apple of eden.


This is where a TERRIBLE series RETCON takes place.

Viddic wants to have Desmond killed, but Lucy says no! (This is because Corey May still has ideas churning around and wasn't sure what to do next I think.)

At the end of AC2, Viddic says: Ohh there you are Mr.Miles! We've been looking for you! We still have so much work to do!

When the exact last time Desmond seen viddic, he said quite the opposite.

So that there, shows that the writing isn't perfect.

They assumed that people would be bright enough to notice Lucy only bending her finger back -- They weren't.

Minerva, seeing time ala Dr.Manhatten, knew Ezio would one day enter the vault.

She also knew that one day Desmond would be watching Ezio's memories.


In another topic there is something about Desmond only being able to see the ancestor until they conceive a kid or something.

Which is why it leaves Altair and stays on Maria during that cutscene (Although this could just be Desmonds dream.)

SWJS
01-24-2010, 02:59 PM
^This http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

jimbo11235813
01-24-2010, 06:19 PM
Can you give all you reasons as to how you came to the conclusion that they aren't related. Some of the reasons I've read so far (not word for word, but how I've understood them):

1-was that the Animus was searching for matching DNA to the person inside (Desmond).

This can't be true seeing as Desmond has been using the animus recently without this happening, and Desmond's DNA came on screen before 16's.

2-was that the Animus is like any computer, search engine, and any rules that apply to them also apply to the animus. 16 only appears because, like a computer, it also search previouly entered data/DNA.

True, but like a computer, you can specify a search. Lucy must have been searching for something specific to be in such a hurry. But, she also had reason to scan 16's DNA for something, suggested by the fact Desmond's DNA appears first then 16's. Then, some of 16's nucleotides were hightlighted during the search suggesting that the DNA was relevent to the search.

3-16's ancestor could've met Ezio and discussed the Vault (which fits his obsession with Italy).

This is a possibility (not fact though, that is only a theory). But the fact that 16's later sessions were missing are a bit suspicious considering Ezio only went into the Vault later in the Genetic Memory.

4-Vidic was looking for the Vault. Desmond was the answer as they couldn't find it in 16 because he wasn't Ezio.

Highly unlikely, seeing as the later sessions are missing, suggesting there is something to hide from Abstergo, and then leaving clues. WAY too suspicious to just be because of Adam and Eve (he knew something bad was going to happen on 21/12/2012 (think that's the right date), bad enough to use his own blood as ink.
Also, if they were looking for the Vault, why do they (Abstergo) want kill Desmond at the end of AC1, and why not look for the Vault before getting the Piece of Eden.

There are too many errors with these reasons to be fact. There may be (and a chance to be) errors with my reasons. So, please don't call a theory a fact.

SWJS
01-24-2010, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by jimbo_323:
Can you give all you reasons as to how you came to the conclusion that they aren't related. Some of the reasons I've read so far (not word for word, but how I've understood them):

1-was that the Animus was searching for matching DNA to the person inside (Desmond).

This can't be true seeing as Desmond has been using the animus recently without this happening, and Desmond's DNA came on screen before 16's.

2-was that the Animus is like any computer, search engine, and any rules that apply to them also apply to the animus. 16 only appears because, like a computer, it also search previouly entered data/DNA.

True, but like a computer, you can specify a search. Lucy must have been searching for something specific to be in such a hurry. But, she also had reason to scan 16's DNA for something, suggested by the fact Desmond's DNA appears first then 16's. Then, some of 16's nucleotides were hightlighted during the search suggesting that the DNA was relevent to the search.

3-16's ancestor could've met Ezio and discussed the Vault (which fits his obsession with Italy).

This is a possibility (not fact though, that is only a theory). But the fact that 16's later sessions were missing are a bit suspicious considering Ezio only went into the Vault later in the Genetic Memory.

4-Vidic was looking for the Vault. Desmond was the answer as they couldn't find it in 16 because he wasn't Ezio.

Highly unlikely, seeing as the later sessions are missing, suggesting there is something to hide from Abstergo, and then leaving clues. WAY too suspicious to just be because of Adam and Eve (he knew something bad was going to happen on 21/12/2012 (think that's the right date), bad enough to use his own blood as ink.
Also, if they were looking for the Vault, why do they (Abstergo) want kill Desmond at the end of AC1, and why not look for the Vault before getting the Piece of Eden.

There are too many errors with these reasons to be fact. There may be (and a chance to be) errors with my reasons. So, please don't call a theory a fact. 1. 16 came up first, followed by Desmond. Then it scanned, selected Desmond, said "Welcome subject 17" and entered the memory.

2. But you also have to consider typos, and no matter how specific you make a search, it can still bring up the wrong results. A friend of mine mispelled "tires" as "tyres". He got porn. All Lucy had to do was make one typo. Also, Lucy was in a hurry. Searching for 16 when he was dead and no longer scannable would have been a big waste of time. She told Desmond to hurry because the scan would probably take a bit.

3. The later sessions included several memories, including world war II. 16 didn't just relive one ancestor's memories, he relived dozens. Also, 16 was only forced to go to Italy in his later sessions, right before he commited suicide. The reason he knew about the vault and such was because he relived A LOT of history. Mention of it all could have been presented in any of those memories, not just in Italy. There is more than one vault you know.

4. Like my above paragraph states, There are more than just one vault, and 16 could have found another in one of the dozens of other memories he relived, not just Italy.

I see no errors in the fact that they aren't related.

jimbo11235813
01-25-2010, 05:10 AM
The answers in bold are my comments. The ones that aren't are EzioTheAssassin's.

1. 16 came up first, followed by Desmond. Then it scanned, selected Desmond, said "Welcome subject 17" and entered the memory.

I've watched it alot of times, and Desmond appeared first, then 16. Then it says "searching for relevent memory data" (if it was looking for what subject was in there, it would look for a bit more than memory data) highlighting parts of 16's DNA then highlights some of Desmond's DNA, then it says "memory match found" then it accesses the memory. Memory match means it had something to compare to, where would Lucy have found something to compare to if it wasn't 16's.

2. But you also have to consider typos, and no matter how specific you make a search, it can still bring up the wrong results. A friend of mine mispelled "tires" as "tyres". He got porn. All Lucy had to do was make one typo. Also, Lucy was in a hurry. Searching for 16 when he was dead and no longer scannable would have been a big waste of time. She told Desmond to hurry because the scan would probably take a bit.

But in games, films and books, they don't make people do typos (causing Lucy to accidently bringing up 16) because it's a waste of time (the audience don't want to see it), unless it's important to the story (or it's for comedy). Either, it's so people who didn't play the first game would have heard about him before they found the glyphs or he was part of the search, that's why parts of his DNA are highlighted during the search, to show he had Ezio's genes.

3. The later sessions included several memories, including world war II. 16 didn't just relive one ancestor's memories, he relived dozens. Also, 16 was only forced to go to Italy in his later sessions, right before he commited suicide. The reason he knew about the vault and such was because he relived A LOT of history. Mention of it all could have been presented in any of those memories, not just in Italy. There is more than one vault you know.

Just re-watching the bit about the different ancestors, and I admit I may have been mistaken as it sounds like Vidic was the one who obsessed. However, Lucy says "If we didn't push 16 so hard, we'd have the answer already..." suggesting that he did have the answer.

4. Like my above paragraph states, There are more than just one vault, and 16 could have found another in one of the dozens of other memories he relived, not just Italy.

But Abstergo were looking for the one in Italy because that's where they were looking just before 16 dies. Maybe, they were looking for the map (don't come back with "it could have been one of the assassins who also saw the map" because he could've been Ezio, doesn't prove it.)

I see no errors in the fact that they aren't related.

You've just given us pieces of information that you've found about 16, none of which proves he wasn't Ezio (however, it's true that 16 or Vidic could've heard about the vaults in one of the other memories, but it's not proof as they still went to an Italian ancestor.) The first reason is incorrect and the second is not reason but a guess.

I based these answers on the 2 videos on youtube. This is the video of the search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1DnCNdhPPE) and this is the video about the ancestors. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_So7xZk8Q)

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-25-2010, 08:00 AM
[Sorry, won't copy/paste text here due to the recent copyright issues from other posts (guidebook, novel)]

People - the game starts out by showing you that Desmond is related to Subj 16 as a premise of the story - a matching sequence of DNA (and thus matching memory inside that DNA) is searched for and FOUND in the Amimus. That common DNA, common memory, and COMMON ANCESTORY is Ezio. You can say they are closely or loosely related, but having a common ancestor (Ezio) means they are related by definition. The Animus did not do a Google-like search with possible mistypes for common time periods, common locations, or common interests. It searched and found common DNA. Very straight-forward depiction in the cutscene, the interpretations otherwise are quite "creative".

You can believe what you want though, whether it is true or not... believing what is not true is the another premise of the game after all. (Maybe some didn't catch that either) :-)

PlagueDoctor357
01-25-2010, 01:59 PM
OK, having just watched it again.

First it shows Desmonds name (Being the last person IN the animus.)

It also shows a glowing DNA strand behind his name.

Then it comes up with Subject 16, DNA strand behind his name.


Searching for relavent data.............

MATCH FOUND.

The DNA behind Desmond lights up and comes to the center while the rest fades away.

Seems to me, what i've been saying this whole time still holds true.

100s of animuses.

Only two subjects entered in this one.

It shows both subjects then searchs for the memory data.

BAM!

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-25-2010, 03:17 PM
Correct sequence, but what was the matched memory/dna found? THE BIRTH OF EZIO. If both Desmond and Subj16 have that matched memory, that means they both MUST be descendants of Ezio. Only other people watching Ezio birth was mommy and 2 nameless nurses (Daddy Auditore entered shortly after birth). Pretty simple logic, unless you really think the story is trying to imply Subj16 is a descendent of one of those 3 minor-character women?

tjm5694
01-25-2010, 04:01 PM
the aminus was left over technology from those who came b4. vidic says in the first game that it, as well as a lot of abstergo's other inventions, were 'gifts' from TWCB

SWJS
01-25-2010, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by CEO_of_Abstergo:
Correct sequence, but what was the matched memory/dna found? THE BIRTH OF EZIO. If both Desmond and Subj16 have that matched memory, that means they both MUST be descendants of Ezio. Only other people watching Ezio birth was mommy and 2 nameless nurses (Daddy Auditore entered shortly after birth). Pretty simple logic, unless you really think the story is trying to imply Subj16 is a descendent of one of those 3 minor-character women? Their memories did not match though. The animus found a match with Desmond when searching for "RELEVANT MEMORY DATA". Relevent means "having a bearing on or connection with the subject at issue". Subject 16 was not the relevant data because he was DEAD. His MEMORIES are no longer inside the Animus, only the recordings from his sessions. There is no way 16's memories could have been scanned unless he was alive and inside the machine. It did not find a match between them, as it would have been IMPOSSIBLE due to the fact that 16's memories could not possibly be accessed, due to the fact that he is dead. The animus scans and reads memories, it does NOT store them. It found a relevant match between Desmond and HIS memories.

jimbo11235813
01-25-2010, 05:38 PM
The animus looks at DNA. As you say, it records the sessions, but it can record DNA (many As Cs Gs Ts in a scrambled order telling the body what protein to make and other complicated stuff like what goes where), which is shown when the name "Subject 16" with DNA behind it to show it's got it in the database. If you know what DNA make a specific type of protein, then you you can find it in other humans. e.g. Haemoglobin. Found in red blood blood in it's normal form in alot of humans, making a doughnut like shape. Mutated years ago in someone which caused it to stick end to end creating Sickle shaped red blood cells, this is called Sickle Cell Anaemia, which got passed on. We KNOW what the sequence is (too many ACGTs to put in a post). It's the same with genetic memory. A memory isn't scanned/searched, it's the DNA, hence the name genetic memory, that's important (recorded probably quite easily using the animus).

Say, Desmond's Grandfather genetic memory that was passed onto Desmond's Father was ACGATCGATCGATTGC and so on. Desmond and of his Siblings would have this (for AC memory genetics to work). If they were all taken to Abstergo and were all tested and their DNA recorded, the animus could easily search for this specific sequence and find it just as easily in any children or great-great-great...great-great grandchildren they had.

A person's DNA as a whole is unique, but we gets pieces of it from our parents and ancestors (e.g. FOXP2 gene. Without it, we wouldn't be able to speak.)

SWJS
01-25-2010, 05:55 PM
The animus doesn't record or store DNA. It only scans for ancestral memories and reads it, then records wht it sees, like a DVD recorder. If there is no subject 16 in the animus, it will not find any relevant data on him, period. One single strand of DNA can be several feet long. Even if the animus could record and store it, it would still take a long while to scan it for memories. As such, it would, once again, be completely pointless for Lucy to purposefully search 16s DNA for a connection with Desmonds, as once again, they were in a hurry because Lucy pulled a no-no. Also, if they knew the exact strand to look in, they wouldn't have pushed 16 so hard. They don't know exactly which strand to scan, so they search for the best possible match. And DNA is also subject to mutation, both inside and outside the body, but more-so outside the body. It could easily be destroyed or mutated when kept inside a machine, most likely powered by electricity. It doesn't matter if 16s name was on screen, what matters is that he wasn't there, so there was no possible way his memories or ancestral memories could have been detected. 16 and Desmond are therefore not related, and their genentic signature was never scanned for a match between the two of them, therefore they did not match.

And as PlaugeDoctor has brought up before:

Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
OK, having just watched it again.

First it shows Desmonds name (Being the last person IN the animus.)

It also shows a glowing DNA strand behind his name.

Then it comes up with Subject 16, DNA strand behind his name.


Searching for relavent data.............

MATCH FOUND.

The DNA behind Desmond lights up and comes to the center while the rest fades away.

Seems to me, what i've been saying this whole time still holds true.

100s of animuses.

Only two subjects entered in this one.

It shows both subjects then searchs for the memory data.

BAM!

Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
It was Viddic whom was obsessed with Italy, not Lucy or 16. (To the poster up a bit.)

They aren't related, fact.

Like I said, there were 100's of animuses.

But they only needed an Assassin whom had been to italy. Thus they find 16.

Viddic isn't finding what he wants -- The vault.

He pushes 16 to find it, which in turn makes him go insane.

They need a new subject now, so they (Owning the world and all) wait for another Assassin to show up on the grid (They're all off grid now.)

They get Desmond, and use him to get the apple of eden.


This is where a TERRIBLE series RETCON takes place.

Viddic wants to have Desmond killed, but Lucy says no! (This is because Corey May still has ideas churning around and wasn't sure what to do next I think.)

At the end of AC2, Viddic says: Ohh there you are Mr.Miles! We've been looking for you! We still have so much work to do!

When the exact last time Desmond seen viddic, he said quite the opposite.

So that there, shows that the writing isn't perfect.

They assumed that people would be bright enough to notice Lucy only bending her finger back -- They weren't.

Minerva, seeing time ala Dr.Manhatten, knew Ezio would one day enter the vault.

She also knew that one day Desmond would be watching Ezio's memories.


In another topic there is something about Desmond only being able to see the ancestor until they conceive a kid or something.

Which is why it leaves Altair and stays on Maria during that cutscene (Although this could just be Desmonds dream.)

jimbo11235813
01-25-2010, 07:18 PM
Where does the GENETIC memory come from? DNA. In AC1, Vidic says that animal instinct wasn't just instinct, but a memory of what they were meant to do, written in their DNA.
Also, Desmond could replay bits of Altair's memories later in AC1 by selecting different parts of the DNA memory Sequences (came to mind when writing this). They knew when Altair found the map (don't know how, we are never told), but they couldn't because Desmond's mind wouldn't let him. That's probably why they were pushing 16. It's probably the case with every ancestor who knew something that the mind can't take without easing them in.

And yes, DNA is subject to mutation. But everyone has had mutations in there body, but we're not all mutants walking round London, New York, or wherever you live because the body can repair the damage to DNA most of the time (the other times produce cancer, tumours etc.) Mutations that are passed if the gamate (sperm/ovum) already had them or if it happened while while they were still a gamete. So, mutations that are passed on are not that common and some unnoticeable (because some mutation don't change the protein, even when DNA is change. Won't bore you with details.)

Also, I'm not saying DNA is physically stored in the animus, the string of multiple and scrambled letters of ACGT, the four nucleotides of which DNA is composed of, would be enough for any Geneticist to understand and reproduce in another machine, ready to scan in a way a computer does. They require a subject probably because they need the brain of the subject to play out the role of the ancestor.

SWJS
01-25-2010, 08:39 PM
Also, Desmond could replay bits of Altair's memories later in AC1 by selecting different parts of the DNA memory Sequences (came to mind when writing this). They knew when Altair found the map (don't know how, we are never told), but they couldn't because Desmond's mind wouldn't let him. That's probably why they were pushing 16. It's probably the case with every ancestor who knew something that the mind can't take without easing them in.
Desmond could replay the memores because he had already lived through them, and because HE was the one in the animus. Notice that he never tried to access any other memories. Notice that when he got in the animus each time it was already on and set to him. However, when Lucy leaves and Desmond stares at his bedroom wall, he's there for an hour, leaving the animus idle. What does your computer do when it goes idle and comes back on? It asks for a password, etc.

Same thing with the animus. Desmond's genetic signature is like a password. When the animus recognizes it, it allows Desmond access.

jimbo11235813
01-26-2010, 03:40 AM
Abstergo tried to force Desmond into the 'Piece of Eden map' Memory Sequence, they attempted and failed, so chose a more 'stable' memory. My point was that it gives a reason as to why they needed to push 16. That is all.

But as for the password requirement, in AC1 they didn't need to do it after Desmond was asleep, surely for more than an hour. Did Lucy pressed a key before it went to a screen saver every ten minutes? When the Animus breaks (think it overheats) in AC1, Lucy wouldn't even attempt to fix it while it was turned on. They never required the DNA password after it was fixed.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-26-2010, 05:56 AM
Some stare at words without reading the meaning I guess.
Point 1: Subj 16 has memory data of Ezio in the Animus. It is searched for and found and taken to the Assassin hideout, complete with Subj16's glyphs.
Point 2: Desmond has memory data of Ezio, his birth that comes as as resulting "relevant memory" and Ezio memory is what you're doing in whole AC2
THEREFORE: both have memory of Ezio, both therefore must be related to Ezio, and therefore to each other! That is what is shown not only buy first scenes in AC2 but by entirey of both games. I read all kinds of conjecture about how the Animus computer system works but how can you DISPROVE the above facts that show they are related by definition?

bokeef04
01-26-2010, 03:26 PM
t 1: Subj 16 has memory data of Ezio in the Animus. It is se
just because you have memories of someone doesn't mean your related to them, Subject 16 could have been related to Machiavelli for example, also there is no proof 16 was even an assassin, he could have been related to Borgia

SWJS
01-26-2010, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by CEO_of_Abstergo:
Point 1: Subj 16 has memory data of Ezio in the Animus. It is searched for and found and taken to the Assassin hideout, complete with Subj16's glyphs.

It seems I'll have to repeat myself:


Um... no. 16 hacked the animus so that he could encode the files into the memory core. He didn't share the same ancestors, he just hacked the animus. The only reason he encoded the files into Italy, was because he, and possibly Vidic, was obssessed with Italy and was forced to live as one of his Italian ancestors. Lucy says herself that she knew Desmond had an ancestor in Italy linked to everything. She never said "I knew you and 16" or "You and 16 had an ancestor". Also, why did Lucy just happen to chose Italy as a training ground? To test out her theories and discover the obssession with it. The glyphs were just computer code, not encoded in the DNA, but in the memory banks. No matter what time period they chose, the glyphs would have still shown up in Italy.

bokeef04 makes a very good point too.

Originally posted by bokeef04:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1: Subj 16 has memory data of Ezio in the Animus. It is se
just because you have memories of someone doesn't mean your related to them, Subject 16 could have been related to Machiavelli for example, also there is no proof 16 was even an assassin, he could have been related to Borgia </div></BLOCKQUOTE>http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

jimbo11235813
01-26-2010, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin: She never said "I knew you and 16" or "You and 16 had an ancestor". Also, why did Lucy just happen to chose Italy as a training ground?
She was looking for the Codex and the Vault. Desmond asked "So you're after the Codex and the Vault?" it would be stupid to answer "I knew you and 16 had an ancestor who was at the centre of all this," seeing as 16 is dead, so that bit of information (for Desmond) would be irrelevant to the question. It doesn't prove that they weren't both Ezio.

That answers both the training ground question and why she didn't mention 16 in that answer.

SWJS
01-26-2010, 05:06 PM
My point is that Desmond and 16 aren't related. I was never reffering to them sharing Ezio as an ancestor, which is also false.

jimbo11235813
01-26-2010, 05:19 PM
I know that was your point.

My point was she probably didn't mention 16 in that sentence because it wasn't relevant to the question, not because he wasn't his ancestor (which is what you were saying, if I understand correctly.)

Edit: Reading CEO_Of_Abstergo's two points. He says "X has memory data of Ezio" (x being 16 and Desmond). Judging by the repeat of "has memory data of Ezio," I think he means that they have Ezio's memory data/DNA, not that they had a memory of him (i.e. ancestor knew/knew of Ezio.)

SWJS
01-26-2010, 05:48 PM
Actually that's half the point. Lucy didn't search for 16 in the animus, and didn't bring up 16 because he isn't relevant to the situation. Lucy and the Assassins are focusing mainly on Desmond, and are only interested in 16 because of his video. It wouldn't have been relevant for Lucy to have 16 on her mind during the escape because they were in a hurry.

Which is just a part of my biggest point.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-27-2010, 06:08 AM
You seem to be forgetting that the first scene brings up sub 16 and 17 to search for a data match and FINDS ONE, THEN PLAYS THAT MATCHED DATA MEMORY - BIRTH OF EZIO. Whether what was matched was dna, memories, recordings of memories already had in Animus... the point of cutscene is to show what MATCHED between 16 and 17 is the birth of Ezio. This is why Lucy even brings "confidential" subject 16 on the screen and searches for a match. Birth of Ezio was resulting matched data common to two subjects on screen. Machiavelli was not in that memory of birth of Ezio. If both subjects were present at birth of Ezio and thus have memory of it, both are descendents of Ezio or another in that room of his birth (which were just minor midwife characters and Miss Auditore). If you don't get that you are interpreting or over-analyzing rather than watching. All I see to argue otherwise are interpretation and conjecture equal to religious arguments - no facts just insistent BELIEF that they are unrelated and that Lucy did all kinds of things you think but are NOT shown to you in the video. Their relation is practically spelled out to you in the cutscene, it's whole purpose. If subj 16 hacked it in without having actual memory of Ezio (behind a terminal) there would be no purpose to show the cutscene of data comparison in 2 subjects; Desmond could simply enter Animus and discover the glyphs and wonder who put them there. Since they know it was 16 it came from what they stole from Abstergo, which was the matched memory, which was Ezio's life, which means someone already lived some of it in that stolen core, and the only one per cutscene to do so is subj16. It's all right in front of your face.

Blackglasswar
01-27-2010, 07:06 AM
Firstly - listen to what Vidik says in AC1 and then reconsider this thread... something along the lines of "DNA of ancestors is passed down as well as memories within the DNA"

Simple genetics (hopefully you will learn this when you go to big boy school)...

a) My father and my mother "mixed" (to put it politely) their DNA to make me and my siblings.

b) If I climbed in the animus I could look at my mum and dads memories, but not my siblings.

c) My mums parents "mixed" their DNA to make her and her siblings, as did my dads parents.

d) If I climbed in the animus I could look at my mum and dads memories, AND all of my grandparents, but none of my aunts or uncles.

e) If my siblings climbed in the animus they could do (b) and (d) above. If my mum climbed in to the animus she could only look at the memories of her parents (like (b) above)

f) If we continue to go back in time through a lineage/ family tree we will see many branches being made from a common ancestor.

g) FINALLY - if we take Ezio and assume that he had 2 children the DNA and memories would be passed to both of them and they would have children who would have Ezios memories (as well as Ezio's sexual partner - providing that she didn't have an affair thereby making it not Ezio's DNA), and the direct parents.


So class - in conclusion of the above results we can hypothetise that Desmond and Subject 16 had a "common" ancestor - Ezio. How far removed they are is not mentioned in the game... it could be Desmonds Uncle - it could be his great great great great great great great grandfathers nephews sons son etc. The important thing is that the memory core was that was taken to the hideout did match or AC2 would have been very short indeed...

"Desmond - get in the animus quickly"
"okay"
"damn it doesn't match"
"what now?"
"um..."

CREDITS ROLL

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-27-2010, 08:29 AM
THANK YOU! Finally, someone understands what the game story is portraying within its own presented context of dna memory and the match therein between subj 16 and 17 of Ezio's birth. Good post, makes perfect sense, you are right on the mark.

Blackglasswar
01-27-2010, 03:37 PM
I will take my bow and claim my piece of eden... and look forward to AC3... in fact I will go and play some AC1 as well as I have overlooked how good it was in setting the scene.

ooh - completely off tpoic - just got to 98.4 % synch... bring on DLC for 100%!

SWJS
01-27-2010, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Blackglasswar:
Firstly - listen to what Vidik says in AC1 and then reconsider this thread... something along the lines of "DNA of ancestors is passed down as well as memories within the DNA"

Simple genetics (hopefully you will learn this when you go to big boy school)...

a) My father and my mother "mixed" (to put it politely) their DNA to make me and my siblings.

b) If I climbed in the animus I could look at my mum and dads memories, but not my siblings.

c) My mums parents "mixed" their DNA to make her and her siblings, as did my dads parents.

d) If I climbed in the animus I could look at my mum and dads memories, AND all of my grandparents, but none of my aunts or uncles.

e) If my siblings climbed in the animus they could do (b) and (d) above. If my mum climbed in to the animus she could only look at the memories of her parents (like (b) above)

f) If we continue to go back in time through a lineage/ family tree we will see many branches being made from a common ancestor.

g) FINALLY - if we take Ezio and assume that he had 2 children the DNA and memories would be passed to both of them and they would have children who would have Ezios memories (as well as Ezio's sexual partner - providing that she didn't have an affair thereby making it not Ezio's DNA), and the direct parents.


So class - in conclusion of the above results we can hypothetise that Desmond and Subject 16 had a "common" ancestor - Ezio. How far removed they are is not mentioned in the game... it could be Desmonds Uncle - it could be his great great great great great great great grandfathers nephews sons son etc. The important thing is that the memory core was that was taken to the hideout did match or AC2 would have been very short indeed...

"Desmond - get in the animus quickly"
"okay"
"damn it doesn't match"
"what now?"
"um..."

CREDITS ROLL I lol'ed at the "big boy school" comment. For your information "Captain Know-It-All," I GRADUATED High School.

Point 1: AC is science fiction, FICTION, written by a screenwriter. What does genetics have to do with anything? It's a story. I highly doubt the writers were able to 100% correctly potray the science of genetics in said story as well.

I will say it again. The animus said it found a MATCH between Desmond and HIS memories. Subject 16 was irrelevant to the situation.

Also, perhaps you should go back to "big boy school." You contradict yourself quite a lot.

Also, it was quite common for men and women to have affairs back then. The Beat Up events, Duccio, Amelia, and Ezio himself prove this. Ezio sleeps with SEVERAL different women, including Caterina Sforza. And those women have probably slept with several other men. 16 may have had an ancestor in Italy, and said ancestor may have even met Ezio, but it was NOT Ezio himself. You have proven nothing.

And so, I reach the same conclusion.

16 and Desmond are NOT related. Never were, never will be.

godsmack_darius
01-27-2010, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by jimbo_323:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by godsmack_darius:
Vdic was obsessed with ITALY, after all the damn ancestors he was looking at through subject 16, he found out their was something in Italy,

THEN, Subject 16 went crazy, thereforehe cant look in Italy, But vidic had faith that Desmond had an ancestor in Italy,
But Lucy definitely it was 16 who was obsessed with Italy. And if Vidic/Abstergo wanted Desmond for an Italian ancestor, why would he just look at Altair and then order him to be killed in AC1 (then saved by Lucy by saying that they may still need him.)

CEO_of_Abstergo, can you post a link of Corey May's blog about the relationship? It should prove to the others that it's true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

H ewas following Orders to get the locations of the POE

And the italy thing was obviously personel,

So their not related, I think Lucy wants to save time, Lucy knew 16 had an ancestor in Italy, and she was sure Desmond did too, soo instead of going into desmonds memory and looking for an ancestor from the top of his bloodline to HIM, she just simply looked for a match between desmond and 16 who had the same ancestor in italy, and BAM. Memory found


BANG!!!! Hows that for a slice of fried gold http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Blackglasswar
01-28-2010, 02:45 AM
Also, perhaps you should go back to "big boy school." You contradict yourself quite a lot.

Also, it was quite common for men and women to have affairs back then. The Beat Up events, Duccio, Amelia, and Ezio himself prove this. Ezio sleeps with SEVERAL different women, including Caterina Sforza. And those women have probably slept with several other men. 16 may have had an ancestor in Italy, and said ancestor may have even met Ezio, but it was NOT Ezio himself. You have proven nothing.

And so, I reach the same conclusion.


If you would kindly point out my contradictions I will gladly clarify.

To clarify my point at this present time however...

AC1 first time in the animus Vidik is very clear about how it works. I know loads more people bought the 2nd game than did the 1st so there must be a handful of people that have never expereicned the 1st game. DNA passes on in memories - you are controlling an ancestor through a lineage you share with them. In AC1 Abstergo are using you to get the Piece of Edens location - if it were as simple as finding someone who simply saw Altair walking in the street, as several of you imply by there being a shared memory at Ezios birth (WTF) and then jumping in the animus, then the concept would be dry and boring and they could have used anyone. Instead they HAVE to use Desmond because of Altairs lineage.

In the trippy part of AC2 where Desmond experiences Altairs rooftop bonk why does the camera not follow Altair? Because Desmonds lineage (the chosen one) has been planted in the womb of Altairs pin cushion for his "other hidden blade" (naughty).


Somewhere between Altairs rooftop bonk and the birth of Ezio the lineage continues, and just like his ancestor Ezio was a ***** - so his man juice got spread around Italy like a plague. Hence - Subject 16 could be related to any one of these womens bastard childs, and Desmond is related from another.

The common ancestor is Ezio. Subject 16 could not have been related to a midwife, Ezio's mother, the wetnurse or anyone else present at Ezios birth or assassins creed would be seen through their eyes in-between delivering babies. Granted there would have been more blood in the game but bashing square to instruct the mother to push doesn't cut it. Neither does moping about the same bedroom until my son brings me 100 feathers. Having an ancestor that sees Ezio would mean that you would control that ancestor in the animus.

I am not saying that Subject 16 and Desmond are directly related, just that the only way that the Animus would work is if Ezio were the common ancestor (although wouldn't it be a total middle finger if Ubisoft showed us in AC3 that Subject 16 was Desmonds biological father which he never knew because he ran away from being an assassin).

What people forget about Science Fiction is the Science part. Good Sci-Fi needs good Science. The concept of being able to look at memories through those encapsulated in DNA is great but it wouldn't stand up if it was just,
"ooh look, my ancestor saw Hitler, wouldn't it be fun to be Hitler for a day!" (before anyone says anything - no I do not think it would be fun to be Hitler! I'm just making a point.)

My point is that, as an Bsc graduate in Biology and MSc graduate in Genetic Toxicology and Environmental Mutagenesis I have had to KNOW a fair bit about geneology and genetics. No research currently out agrees with abstergo but as a member of the public who can appreciate the fiction mixed with Science the game concept is robust enough to make me happy that it isn't dumbing down science in the name of art.

SWJS
01-28-2010, 03:10 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Bravo. I'm very impressed with this post. While I do know a bit about genetics, my high school science is really fuzzy. This is because I wish to be a game developer, most likely a screenwriter, or creative director, like Patrice.

I can agree, though my biggest argument is being whether the animus was referring to a match between Desmond and 16 in the opening sequence. I however strongly believe it was verifying Desmond's genetic signature. My argument isn't technically about them being related, just about the "Memory Match Found" sequence in the opening. And yes I have played AC1, however, it has been a while, as I becamed bored with it just before AC2 was released.

jimbo11235813
01-28-2010, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by godsmack_darius:
H ewas following Orders to get the locations of the POE

And the italy thing was obviously personel,

You were right about Vidic's obsession (watched cutscene again and misunderstood Lucy the first time I watched it as she used he/him meaning Vidic at times and 16 at other times.)

Blackglasswar
01-28-2010, 06:34 AM
just found the youtube video to help anyone that didn't play AC1 or hasn't for a while about how the animus works...

Assassins Creed Walkthrough Part 1: Past & Present Collide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jabbFc80wDQ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jabbFc80wDQ

Vidik says at the 4:00 minute mark about how the animus works and from 4:22 says...

"What if I told you that the human body not only housed an individuals memory, but the memories of his ancestors as well"

From Vidiks mouth, this implies simply that the animus will only work when there are genetic matches to the ancestor... Once again Subject 16 and Desmond must therefore share a common ancestor in Ezio.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-28-2010, 07:27 AM
Great post, Blackglasswar, a fine encapsulation with some added humor. I had also thought of the plot angle of subj 16 being the long-lost hippy baby dady, or even an unknown twin or sibbling, of Desmond.

EzioTheAssassin -- The whole point of that cutscene is that their dna (and therefore memories in it) were compared to find a match. Subject 16 "confidential" would not even need to come on screen unless they were not searching for something that matched. It was found and it was the memory of Ezio. So what matched, what is common between 2 subjects on screen - 16 & 17 - was Ezio's birth. They both lived as Ezio being born. This means they are both descendents of Ezio. That makes them family/related. This is actually what the scene is trying to "say", and it keeps the premise of the underlying science fiction of AC series.

I bother with all the posts in this thread to try and help this to be understood so that y'all will enjoy the fiction's basis on science and real history all the more, as you obviously love the game already. Peace.

Blackglasswar
01-28-2010, 07:35 AM
Thanks CEO

Actually - as you are the CEO of Abstrego shouldn't you know this already... and where is my payslip! I demand a raise...

I hope we can now leave this thread alone and just pop back every year or so to put flowers in its grave.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-28-2010, 09:08 AM
Yes, if you look thru, I'm the one who posted a dozen times on this thread pleading "they are related because the Animus works like THIS..." I should know, I stole the technology from TWCB.
-Alan Rikkin, CEO, Abstergo Industries, Inc.

8-)

Blackglasswar
01-28-2010, 09:19 AM
That was you... I just skimmed through (oops naughty me) and summarised based on my Powerpoint presentation skills. Can I have a raise now?

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-28-2010, 09:35 AM
Well, I do need a replacement for Lucy (that !#$%), maybe you can get promoted to her job? OR, do you happen to have any anscestors from the 18th centery REVOLUTIONARY periods? We are looking into that next. Special consideration given to any FREEMASONS or ROSICRUCIANS.

Blackglasswar
01-28-2010, 01:07 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Very well done Sir

SWJS
01-28-2010, 09:42 PM
From Vidiks mouth, this implies simply that the animus will only work when there are genetic matches to the ancestor...
Exactly. The animus will only work when there are genetic matches to the ancestor of the current subject. Desmond is in the machine at that very moment. Subject 16 is DEAD, and the only thing the Animus had stored from his sessions was the recordings, which are all password locked.
EzioTheAssassin -- The whole point of that cutscene is that their dna (and therefore memories in it) were compared to find a match. Subject 16 "confidential" would not even need to come on screen unless they were not searching for something that matched. It was found and it was the memory of Ezio. So what matched, what is common between 2 subjects on screen - 16 & 17 - was Ezio's birth. They both lived as Ezio being born. This means they are both descendents of Ezio. That makes them family/related. This is actually what the scene is trying to "say", and it keeps the premise of the underlying science fiction of AC series. They were not being compared. Looking back at my paragraph above, the animus will only work if the descendant of the common ancestor is in the machine. The screen that was brought up could be compared to a simple PC with two different users. After the Animus says it has found a match, 16s name moves out of th way, and Desmond logs in to the Animus.

In order for Desmond and 16 to have been compared, they would both have to have been in the machine at once, which is in more ways than one, impossible.

The animus is, after all, a computer, that scans the DNA of a decendant for memories of a common ancestor, as you and Vidic say. It does not compare the DNA of two subjects. Therefore there was no match between Desmond and 16. The animus was simpy verifying a match between Desmond and HIS common ancestor. Not 16s.

Blackglasswar
01-29-2010, 07:19 AM
After the Animus says it has found a match, 16s name moves out of th way, and Desmond logs in to the Animus.

In order for Desmond and 16 to have been compared, they would both have to have been in the machine at once, which is in more ways than one, impossible.

The animus is, after all, a computer, that scans the DNA of a decendant for memories of a common ancestor, as you and Vidic say. It does not compare the DNA of two subjects. Therefore there was no match between Desmond and 16. The animus was simpy verifying a match between Desmond and HIS common ancestor. Not 16s.

Q: What do we know about abstergo...

A: They want the pieces of Eden

Q: What do we know about their methods...

A: They use ancestors that know of their locations

Q: Who saw 2 pieces...

A: Ezio

Q: Who needs to be in the animus to control Ezio

A: An ancestor

Q: Which memory core is taken to the hideout?

A: Ezio's

Q: How could Subject 16 put glyph codes into a memory core without having been using it in the animus?

A: with magical fairy dust conjecture

I will use youtube again to make my case... this time with AC2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...nCNdhPPE&feature=fvw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1DnCNdhPPE&feature=fvw)

At 2:50 minute mark desmond gets in the animus.
At 3:07 minutes both subject 16 and desmonds DNA are on screen
From 3:10 until 3:14 subject 16s DNA is highlighted in white in 1 place only (this is the DNA that houses the memories of Ezio in my theory and that of CEO and many others) and stops spinning whilst Desmonds continues to search and spin. They then begin to both flash and at 3:15 both DNA strands disappear and "Memory match found" appears and the sequence begins.

That is why me, and countless others in this thread believe that Subject 16 and Desmond share Ezio as a common ancestor.

jimbo11235813
01-29-2010, 07:48 AM
How many times do I need to say this. Genes can in theory be recorded without a permanent store of the DNA. They are series of scrambled nucleotides (adenine (A), guanine (G), thymine (T) and cytosine (C).) Each gene has quite a specific code (occasionally the same protein can be made be from 2 similar Genes/sequence, when a few nucleotides are different. But that's not really important in this except a explain why some mutations wouldn't necessarily matter.) So, if it's been recorded on a computer as A's, C's, G's and T's (to correspond with the nucleotides), then you can probably sort it into folders (the different ancestors) then take the DNA from one folder (the Ezio folder) and compare it with the subject in the machine (Desmond).

No need to keep a physical copy of the DNA.

I basing this on Genetics I've learnt in Secondary school, College, and one module of Genetics at Uni.

If what I've said isn't strictly possible, I remind you that I am not an expert in genetics, AC is set in the future and it's Science Fiction.

CEO_of_Abstergo
01-29-2010, 08:01 AM
They were not being compared. In order for Desmond and 16 to have been compared, they would both have to have been in the machine at once, which is in more ways than one, impossible.

>What is being compared is their DNA strands for the memories inside of it. The memories and DNA info of sub16 are already saved in the Animus from his sessions pre-AC1. Ezio gets in to compare against that saved data on sub16 already on-screen.


The screen that was brought up could be compared to a simple PC with two different users. After the Animus says it has found a match, 16s name moves out of th way, and Desmond logs in to the Animus.

Note the last subject in that Aninums before AC2 starts was Desmond, at the end of AC1. Subj 16 died long before AC1 starts, what is left behind is only his blood and glyphs and stored Animus memories/DNA. Subj16 must have therefore been brought on screen by Lucy specifically to compare his data against Desmond to start AC2 story.


The animus is, after all, a computer, that scans the DNA of a decendant for memories of a common ancestor, as you and Vidic say. It does not compare the DNA of two subjects. Therefore there was no match between Desmond and 16. The animus was simpy verifying a match between Desmond and HIS common ancestor. Not 16s.

If the Animus scans DNA for memories and can SAVE video-like sessions of those memories, of course it must also SAVE the scanned DNA that holds those memories. This is why subj16's (and all subjects) memories and dna are saved and can appear on screen to compare with Desmond's.

A search occurs to find if the two subjects have same data (memories) in their compared DNA. The search finds yes they do: the memory of their common anscestor Ezio.

SWJS
01-29-2010, 04:08 PM
Note the last subject in that Aninums before AC2 starts was Desmond, at the end of AC1. Subj 16 died long before AC1 starts, what is left behind is only his blood and glyphs and stored Animus memories/DNA. Subj16 must have therefore been brought on screen by Lucy specifically to compare his data against Desmond to start AC2 story. I'll say this once again. Lucy was in a hurry, and she already had Desmond and his information. Subject 16 was completely irrelevant to the situation because he was DEAD, and bringing him up would have only wasted more time. The logic that Lucy brought it up does not make sense.
If the Animus scans DNA for memories and can SAVE video-like sessions of those memories, of course it must also SAVE the scanned DNA that holds those memories. This is why subj16's (and all subjects) memories and dna are saved and can appear on screen to compare with Desmond's. Subject 16s DNA was not scanned. The animus reads genetic memories. It does not store them. The only thing it does store is recordings of the sessions.

A search occurs to find if the two subjects have same data (memories) in their compared DNA. The search finds yes they do: the memory of their common anscestor Ezio. Which once again makes no sense. Lucy only has Desmond, the knowledge Vidic was obssessed wih Italy, and the knowledge that Desmond had a common ancestor in Italy. She was in a hurry, and only needed to find a common ancestor for Desmond. 16 relived the lives of SEVERAL of his ancestors, not just one, and it's never specifically stated if he was forced to relive an Italian ancestor, only that Vidic had a personal obssession with Italy. Lucy doesn't know why, so she takes a chance with Desmond. Subject 16 is completely irrelevant to the situation. Lucy is attemting to train Desmond with Ezio, as well as find out why Italy was so important.

@Blackglasswar: PlaugeDoctor pointed out several very good points. Take a minute to read his/her posts before you declare that you're right and proceed to gloat about it.


Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
It was Viddic whom was obsessed with Italy, not Lucy or 16. (To the poster up a bit.)

They aren't related, fact.

Like I said, there were 100's of animuses.

But they only needed an Assassin whom had been to italy. Thus they find 16.

Viddic isn't finding what he wants -- The vault.

He pushes 16 to find it, which in turn makes him go insane.

They need a new subject now, so they (Owning the world and all) wait for another Assassin to show up on the grid (They're all off grid now.)

They get Desmond, and use him to get the apple of eden.


This is where a TERRIBLE series RETCON takes place.

Viddic wants to have Desmond killed, but Lucy says no! (This is because Corey May still has ideas churning around and wasn't sure what to do next I think.)

At the end of AC2, Viddic says: Ohh there you are Mr.Miles! We've been looking for you! We still have so much work to do!

When the exact last time Desmond seen viddic, he said quite the opposite.

So that there, shows that the writing isn't perfect.

They assumed that people would be bright enough to notice Lucy only bending her finger back -- They weren't.

Minerva, seeing time ala Dr.Manhatten, knew Ezio would one day enter the vault.

She also knew that one day Desmond would be watching Ezio's memories.


In another topic there is something about Desmond only being able to see the ancestor until they conceive a kid or something.

Which is why it leaves Altair and stays on Maria during that cutscene (Although this could just be Desmonds dream.)


Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
Oh my lord (In which I don't believe.)

People either don't pay enough attention, or just don't figure it out.

She ejected a hard drive.

A hard drive in which only two subjects had been entered into.

Thus when searching the "folders" it came across "Chttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif drive and Dhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif drive" like a regular computer would.

Viddic had become obsessed with THAT EXACT PERIOD IN TIME FOR SOME REASON.

Why? Because it's when EZIO, and ONLY EZIO discovered the vault.

He thought he would find it with 16, some random Assassin or maybe even civilian that probably had nothing to do with Ezio or even met him once.

Of course, he didn't and ended up pushing him to far.

Made him kill himself.

We need a new subject now.....Oh right...we own the world.

When the next assassin shows up on our radar (Our owning the world and all.) we'll just snatch him up!


Remember, THEY didn't know that EZIO FOUND MINERVA for Desmond.

MINERVA KNEW THAT THEY WOULD FIND HER.

REMEMBER THIS BECAUSE IT ISN'T THE OTHER WAY AROUND!! From those posts, there is one fatal flaw with the "Share Ezio as a common ancestor" theory. Why doesn't Minerva acknowledge 16 in her holographic recording if it is true?

If Vidic was obssessed with finding the Vault, he would only be able to search for it on his own time, as his primary objective is finding POEs. This is why he forces 16 to relive so many ancestors and pushes him too hard.

16 only discovered the truth about the precursor/human conflct through his common ancestor, ADAM. Thus is why he only goes through such links to reveal that specific session. He never mentions Ezio, The Vault, or Minerva.

Let's also not forget that Leila, Lucy's co-worker, was in charge of 16's animus sessions, so Lucy was never directly informed of anything except their deaths. Lucy took on both her and Leila's responsibilities at once. Meaning Lucy barely knew anything about 16, making it even more pointless to bring him up during the escape.

So after managing to hack the animus and encode his message into the memory core, Subject 16 dies, Vidic fails and is in even more hot water and under even more pressure, and Lucy, being an Assassin Spy, takes her place at his side after Leila and 16 die, allowing her to learn much more and relay this info to Shaun and Rebecca.

Bam, they move on and get Desmond, finish the hunt for POEs with the Apple's map, and Vidic states "We'll be back for you soon enough!"

Indicating they are NOT finished with Desmond, and once Vidic returns, the search for The Vault continues. Lucy knows that Vidic is looking for something in Italy and bad things will happen if Vidic finds an Ancestor in Italy who can show him what he's looking for, so she beats him to the punch. She kills a few guards, makes Desmond get in the animus so she can search for an Italian ancestor, save the data to the memory core, and bust Desmond out of captivity so the Assassins can
1) Train desmond with the bleeding effect, and 2) Find out why Vidic had such a hernia over Italy, and beat him to the punch.

Therefore, Desmond and 16 could not possibly have shared Ezio as a common ancestor, they were not compared, they were not matched, they had nothing to do with each other at all, and this debate is over.

*bangs podium with gavel*

jimbo11235813
01-29-2010, 05:42 PM
EzioTheAssassin's post and my comments
"...there is one fatal flaw with the "Share Ezio as a common ancestor" theory. Why doesn't Minerva acknowledge 16 in her holographic recording if it is true?"

If, she knew Desmond would see it and he would do something about it, she could've known that 16 goes mad and kills himself before he can see inside the vault.

"If Vidic was obssessed with finding the Vault, he would only be able to search for it on his own time, as his primary objective is finding POEs. This is why he forces 16 to relive so many ancestors and pushes him too hard. Subject 16 dies, Vidic fails..."

Lucy talking about 16 and the Vault: "If we didn't push 16 so hard, we'd have the answer already..." Quote from AC2 game, which suggests he was Ezio seeing as we know that Vidic is after the Italian Vault.

"Subject 16s DNA was not scanned. The animus reads genetic memories. It does not store them. The only thing it does store is recordings of the sessions."

How do you know this? They haven't said this as far as I can remember, which means its possible that it's recorded.


P.S. Some Proof that they are related (Thanks to Blackglasswar and his/her comment about how many nucleotides were highlighted, which made me watch it again.) Watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1DnCNdhPPE&feature=fvw) (been use so many times) and look at 16's DNA (if it's not recorded, why does it appear?) Anyway, at roughly 3:08, specific parts of 16's DNA (nucleotides) start flashing/disappearing and reappearing, then Desmond's does the same at 3:13. Why? Because there is a "Memory Match found". If DNA is not recorded, how is there a match? Don't say because it recognises his DNA (e.g. it's like a computer asking for a password). That would mean it's internal memory has a record of his DNA, i.e. it can record DNA.

SWJS
01-29-2010, 06:41 PM
If, she knew Desmond would see it and he would do something about it, she could've known that 16 goes mad and kills himself before he can see inside the vault.
She also could have seen the cataclysm before it happened as well, but she didn't. Therefore it isn't justified. Many believe Subject 16 found the Vault as Ezio before he died. If this is true, Minerva would have acknowledged him as well, and Abstergo would have all the answers. But that isn't the case.
Lucy talking about 16 and the Vault: "If we didn't push 16 so hard, we'd have the answer already..." Quote from AC2 game, which suggests he was Ezio seeing as we know that Vidic is after the Italian Vault. It doesn't suggest he was Ezio at all. Remember the fact that he was forced to relive several ancestors at a time, and he never mentions Italy. 16 never mentions anything about the Vault or Minerva in his files. 16 dies BEFORE abstergo are able to get the answers, which means he would have died before he could have relived the memory they were after.
How do you know this? They haven't said this as far as I can remember, which means its possible that it's recorded.
Vidic and Desmond say it in the very beginning of AC1. "What If I were to tell you that we can decode and read these memories." Vidic never mentions recording the memories or the DNA.
P.S. Some Proof that they are related (Thanks to Blackglasswar and his/her comment about how many nucleotides were highlighted, which made me watch it again.) Watch this video (been use so many times) and look at 16's DNA (if it's not recorded, why does it appear?) Anyway, at roughly 3:08, specific parts of 16's DNA (nucleotides) start flashing/disappearing and reappearing, then Desmond's does the same at 3:13. Why? Because there is a "Memory Match found". If DNA is not recorded, how is there a match? Don't say because it recognises his DNA (e.g. it's like a computer asking for a password). That would mean it's internal memory has a record of his DNA, i.e. it can record DNA. I see no proof they are related. All I see is a nice graphic, something new to see in a new game. The Animus memory core does not record DNA. How do you know the Animus didn't bring up 16 due to his encrypted data on the memory core? There is no absolute proof that it brought up 16 to compare them. As Blackglasswar says, the animus only reads genetic memory. It doesn't record or store them, and it most definately doesn't compare two subjects for matching memories, and, even if it did, 16 and desmond would both have to be in the machine at once. The Animus found a match between Desmond and HIS genetic memories. It had nothing to do with 16, other than the fact he hacked the Animus and encrypted a video file into the memory core.

With that, I shall repeat myself:


Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
From those posts, there is one fatal flaw with the "Share Ezio as a common ancestor" theory. Why doesn't Minerva acknowledge 16 in her holographic recording if it is true?

If Vidic was obssessed with finding the Vault, he would only be able to search for it on his own time, as his primary objective is finding POEs. This is why he forces 16 to relive so many ancestors and pushes him too hard.

16 only discovered the truth about the precursor/human conflct through his common ancestor, ADAM. Thus is why he only goes through such links to reveal that specific session. He never mentions Ezio, The Vault, or Minerva.

Let's also not forget that Leila, Lucy's co-worker, was in charge of 16's animus sessions, so Lucy was never directly informed of anything except their deaths. Lucy took on both her and Leila's responsibilities at once. Meaning Lucy barely knew anything about 16, making it even more pointless to bring him up during the escape.

So after managing to hack the animus and encode his message into the memory core, Subject 16 dies, Vidic fails and is in even more hot water and under even more pressure, and Lucy, being an Assassin Spy, takes her place at his side after Leila and 16 die, allowing her to learn much more and relay this info to Shaun and Rebecca.

Bam, they move on and get Desmond, finish the hunt for POEs with the Apple's map, and Vidic states "We'll be back for you soon enough!"

Indicating they are NOT finished with Desmond, and once Vidic returns, the search for The Vault continues. Lucy knows that Vidic is looking for something in Italy and bad things will happen if Vidic finds an Ancestor in Italy who can show him what he's looking for, so she beats him to the punch. She kills a few guards, makes Desmond get in the animus so she can search for an Italian ancestor, save the data to the memory core, and bust Desmond out of captivity so the Assassins can
1) Train desmond with the bleeding effect, and 2) Find out why Vidic had such a hernia over Italy, and beat him to the punch.

Therefore, Desmond and 16 could not possibly have shared Ezio as a common ancestor, they were not compared, they were not matched, they had nothing to do with each other at all, and this debate is over.

*bangs podium with gavel* Try completely reading it this time, first word to last word.

jimbo11235813
01-30-2010, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin (bold in quotes are me):
From those posts, there is one fatal flaw with the "Share Ezio as a common ancestor" theory. Why doesn't Minerva acknowledge 16 in her holographic recording if it is true?

If Vidic was obssessed with finding the Vault, he would only be able to search for it on his own time, as his primary objective is finding POEs. This is why he forces 16 to relive so many ancestors and pushes him too hard.

16 only discovered the truth about the precursor/human conflct through his common ancestor, ADAM. Thus is why he only goes through such links to reveal that specific session. He never mentions Ezio, The Vault, or Minerva.

It's possible that she can see into the future, like Altair using the Apple to design/make the gun and armour. If Vidic was trying to use 16 to find the Italian (because of his obsession with Italy and the Vault,) then 16 died before they saw it (this can be confirmed by the "Vidic's obsession" conversation when Lucy says "If we didn't push 16 so hard, we'd have the answer already..."). If they didn't reach the Vault as Ezio in 16, there is no reason to mention him. To 16, he is not as important to tell others (through his messages and video) as Adam and Eve.

Let's also not forget that Leila, Lucy's co-worker, was in charge of 16's animus sessions, so Lucy was never directly informed of anything except their deaths. Lucy took on both her and Leila's responsibilities at once. Meaning Lucy barely knew anything about 16, making it even more pointless to bring him up during the escape.

But Lucy did work with him, confirmed by the fact 16 killed himself in front of her (in last glyph message, "Lucy, I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She sees me raise the knife." If she worked with him, then she had access to his files (seeing as she knew where his other ancestors were, she knows a bit more than barely anything.)

So after managing to hack the animus and encode his message into the memory core, Subject 16 dies, Vidic fails and is in even more hot water and under even more pressure, and Lucy, being an Assassin Spy, takes her place at his side after Leila and 16 die, allowing her to learn much more and relay this info to Shaun and Rebecca.

If I remember correctly, Lucy was actually hired by Vidic himself because of the work she had done (Genetic memories), and actually saved her when Abstergo was going to kill her.

Bam, they move on and get Desmond, finish the hunt for POEs with the Apple's map, and Vidic states "We'll be back for you soon enough!"

Indicating they are NOT finished with Desmond, and once Vidic returns, the search for The Vault continues. Lucy knows that Vidic is looking for something in Italy and bad things will happen if Vidic finds an Ancestor in Italy who can show him what he's looking for, so she beats him to the punch. She kills a few guards, makes Desmond get in the animus so she can search for an Italian ancestor, save the data to the memory core, and bust Desmond out of captivity so the Assassins can
1) Train desmond with the bleeding effect, and 2) Find out why Vidic had such a hernia over Italy, and beat him to the punch.

I won't argue with this bit, as it is likely to be true.

Therefore, Desmond and 16 could not possibly have shared Ezio as a common ancestor, they were not compared, they were not matched, they had nothing to do with each other at all, and this debate is not over.

The fact that only certain nucleotides flashed (according to you are "nice graphics") show that it wasn't just for show (whole thing would flash if this were the case), but to show something important, to show that there is something about them that are the same.

*bangs podium with gavel* Try completely reading it this time, first word to last word. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



I'd like to add a few things.
1- Just because Vidic didn't say that it doesn't record DNA doesn't mean it doesn't do it. If you were asked what a computer does, you wouldn't give a lecture about every single function it had, just the most relevant stuff. With the animus, all a subject needs to know is that is decodes and reads memories from DNA. He's never going to use it himself for anything else, so why mention recording DNA.
2- To Match something, there must be something to compare with. You can't use words to search in DNA, you can only compare DNA with DNA. If it wasn't comparing with 16, what was it comparing?
3- If your hiding something from someone, the fact that their subject number still appears while using the animus is a bit of a give away. The fact it says "confidential" where his name should be shows that it is an official file to prevent the subject in the animus from knowing who the other guy was.

And here's my last point: 16 appeared during the search and both DNA strands had flashing nucleotides after they were searched. Nice graphics would have the whole DNA flashing, only parts means there is something special about it. I know I've already said this, but it the strongest piece of evidence that they are related through Ezio.

Wysdom888
01-30-2010, 07:13 AM
I agree. They are definitely related. They have to be.

PlagueDoctor357
01-30-2010, 02:39 PM
That's just it, there wasn't a comparing.

Two subjects and ONLY two subjects entered that animus.

So, there isn't a huge database of files.

Both subjects show up on screen.

17's DNA strand lights up, indicating it found a match.

Match found.

THE only and I mean ONLY evidence there MIGHT be some relation is the fact that they keep hiding his name.

Maybe it's just not important like what's in the briefcase that John Revolting and Samuel L jackson pick up on pulp fiction.

Anyway, Ezio can use my head instead of a gavel because the amount of everyone repeating themselves in this topic is overwhelming

SWJS
01-30-2010, 03:18 PM
1- Just because Vidic didn't say that it doesn't record DNA doesn't mean it doesn't do it. If you were asked what a computer does, you wouldn't give a lecture about every single function it had, just the most relevant stuff. With the animus, all a subject needs to know is that is decodes and reads memories from DNA. He's never going to use it himself for anything else, so why mention recording DNA. Because the Animus doesn't record DNA. If it did, then abstergo would have been able to decode memories without having the subject inside. The Animus has only one function: Read genetic memories.
It's possible that she can see into the future, like Altair using the Apple to design/make the gun and armour. If Vidic was trying to use 16 to find the Italian (because of his obsession with Italy and the Vault,) then 16 died before they saw it (this can be confirmed by the "Vidic's obsession" conversation when Lucy says "If we didn't push 16 so hard, we'd have the answer already..."). If they didn't reach the Vault as Ezio in 16, there is no reason to mention him. To 16, he is not as important to tell others (through his messages and video) as Adam and Eve.
Still one major flaw. During the truth puzzles, 16 speaks. In one truth puzzle, he recalls being several different ancestors due to the bleeding effect. Once again, no mention of Italy, or Ezio. Only Queen Elizabeth, and a World War II soldier with blood on his trenchcoat. They never got the answer from 16 because he never was Ezio.
But Lucy did work with him, confirmed by the fact 16 killed himself in front of her (in last glyph message, "Lucy, I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She sees me raise the knife." If she worked with him, then she had access to his files (seeing as she knew where his other ancestors were, she knows a bit more than barely anything.) You are right. Lucy did work with him, only just after the death of Leila, her best friend and co-worker. Lucy had just started when 16 killed himself. She knew about the Animus, how it works, and it's side effects because she oversaw the assembly and initial testing. She knew 16 went mad because of the bleeding effect, but nothing more. Remember her emails in AC1 asking for info on 16 and Leila, plus the fact Leila and 16 were most likely in love?
If I remember correctly, Lucy was actually hired by Vidic himself because of the work she had done (Genetic memories), and actually saved her when Abstergo was going to kill her.
This is actually mostly true. Lucy was studying genetic memories in college, but all the major companies declared it to be pseudo-science. Abstergo popped up and handed her the job on a silver platter. After she was finished with the project, Abstergo intended to kill her to keep her from publicly speaking of what went on there, perhaps because they found out she was an assassin. Vidic however, stepped in saying that death wasn't neccessary, and so she was left alive on the condition she never leave. It's highly likely that the entire "doctorate" setup was planned by the Assassins to infiltrate Abstergo, because if you remember, Shaun and Rebecca state that Lucy had been gone for seven years.
The fact that only certain nucleotides flashed (according to you are "nice graphics") show that it wasn't just for show (whole thing would flash if this were the case), but to show something important, to show that there is something about them that are the same.
Yet every other piece of evidence points to the fact that they didn't match. The developers could have gotten lazy and not coded a different pattern for 16's holographic DNA strand. Remember how the buildings outside the hideout look EXACTLY like the ones in Renaissance Florence?
1- Just because Vidic didn't say that it doesn't record DNA doesn't mean it doesn't do it. If you were asked what a computer does, you wouldn't give a lecture about every single function it had, just the most relevant stuff. With the animus, all a subject needs to know is that is decodes and reads memories from DNA. He's never going to use it himself for anything else, so why mention recording DNA.
It doesn't record DNA. If it did, they would be able to decode the genetic memories without even having a subject in the machine. They have to have actual, living tissue, the actual DNA of the subject to decode. The animus can only read and decode real dna.
2- To Match something, there must be something to compare with. You can't use words to search in DNA, you can only compare DNA with DNA. If it wasn't comparing with 16, what was it comparing?
Not in computer terms. I've grown up with these things, they're my life, I know this. Google searches come up with the best matching source. Google doesn't compare two different words, does it? The animus is the exact same way. It searches the subject for the ancestor's memories, it reads and decodes geneic memory. It doesn't compare anything.
3- If your hiding something from someone, the fact that their subject number still appears while using the animus is a bit of a give away. The fact it says "confidential" where his name should be shows that it is an official file to prevent the subject in the animus from knowing who the other guy was.
It says his name is confidential because Abstergo doesn't want ANYONE, not even Lucy, to know about him. As I have said, Lucy never knew that much about 16's tests. As I said above, she asks Mr. Rikkin about Leila and 16, and he refuses to disclose any info on the subject. Therefore even if lucy wanted to bring up info on 16, she couldn't because it is confidential and possibly password protected, or even compressed in a ZIP file. This would once again take too long to work around, because during the escape, they were in a hurry.
And here's my last point: 16 appeared during the search and both DNA strands had flashing nucleotides after they were searched. Nice graphics would have the whole DNA flashing, only parts means there is something special about it. I know I've already said this, but it the strongest piece of evidence that they are related through Ezio. Actually, not necessarily. Generally "nice graphics" means that the details are more varied. Having all the nucleotides flashing at once would be considered lazy, yet having it look like the Animus is searching select nucleotides is considered very good work. As I said before, the only reason 16's does exactly what Desmonds does was probably laziness and the devs probably copy and pasted, yet like with many fans, some people tend to over-anylize things and come to a conclusion that isn't correct.

Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
That's just it, there wasn't a comparing.

Two subjects and ONLY two subjects entered that animus.

So, there isn't a huge database of files.

Both subjects show up on screen.

17's DNA strand lights up, indicating it found a match.

Match found.

THE only and I mean ONLY evidence there MIGHT be some relation is the fact that they keep hiding his name.

Maybe it's just not important like what's in the briefcase that John Revolting and Samuel L jackson pick up on pulp fiction.

Anyway, Ezio can use my head instead of a gavel because the amount of everyone repeating themselves in this topic is overwhelming His name is suggested to be Neumann in the AC1 emails.

I was nice enough to repeat your posts for you though. I feel like banging my head against a wall right now, I've got a migrane.

jimbo11235813
01-30-2010, 04:55 PM
Good explanations, won't argue with most of them.

But I'll just add a couple of things.

You wouldn't copy and paste two things next to each other in any games or films unless there is a reason. Have you seen the matrix reloaded or Lord of the Rings? They didn't copy and paste characters that were close to each other, which, like you say, would make it look like lazy work.

We can make a record of DNA at the moment (not sure about all DNA in someone's body), but we still can't make the proteins from it. Vidic says it decodes and reads the memories or something like that, but do they really need the original subject. We have made clones before (like Dolly the sheep) by removing the DNA from a mammary gland of a dead sheep (been dead for a while before removing the cells) and inserting it into an egg (took many attempts though). We can also put genes into bacteria to make substances like Insulin. That means that its not the tissue that they would need, but more likely the mind to process these memories (otherwise they would be able to force Desmond, in AC1, straight into the POE map memory sequence as his mind was what was rejecting it. By this I mean, the Animus doesn't strictly read memories, but instead lets the cells to translate these memories, which the mind then processes. Whatever images the mind makes, the animus copies.)

It's true I may be over-analysing some things, but I don't think I am when it comes to the Memory search bit. I admit some people are lazy about some work in films and games, but most of the time you need to be observant to see this work. The search is way too obvious to be lazy work.

P.S. Get well soon EzioTheAssassin.

SWJS
01-30-2010, 05:18 PM
You wouldn't copy and paste two things next to each other in any games or films unless there is a reason. Have you seen the matrix reloaded or Lord of the Rings? They didn't copy and paste characters that were close to each other, which, like you say, would make it look like lazy work.
It's a regular case with video games though. One big example is the first Halo. It has many copy and paste environments.

We can make a record of DNA at the moment (not sure about all DNA in someone's body), but we still can't make the proteins from it. Vidic says it decodes and reads the memories or something like that, but do they really need the original subject. We have made clones before (like Dolly the sheep) by removing the DNA from a mammary gland of a dead sheep (been dead for a while before removing the cells) and inserting it into an egg (took many attempts though). We can also put genes into bacteria to make substances like Insulin. That means that its not the tissue that they would need, but more likely the mind to process these memories (otherwise they would be able to force Desmond, in AC1, straight into the POE map memory sequence as his mind was what was rejecting it. By this I mean, the Animus doesn't strictly read memories, but instead lets the cells to translate these memories, which the mind then processes. Whatever images the mind makes, the animus copies.) Exactly. We CAN make a record of DNA, but we can't replicate the DNA itself. Which means in order to decode and read the genetic memories of the subject, the subject needs to be in the machine for it to work. Otherwise, why would Vidic need Desmond to get up and get back inside the machine every day if they could just record the DNA and keep going? And, the only reason Desmond couldn't go directly into the 7th memory is because he was being forced to. Once he agreed to work with the scientists and progressively got used to the Animus, his subconscious no longer resisted and he could freely jump into the memory. The reason the could just jump into Ezio's memories in AC2 was because he wanted to, and because they didn't want to immediately jump to the end, because they wanted to train Desmond.
It's true I may be over-analysing some things, but I don't think I am when it comes to the Memory search bit. I admit some people are lazy about some work in films and games, but most of the time you need to be observant to see this work. The search is way too obvious to be lazy work. Yes. Or it may be obvious that it was copied and pasted. You can't ever really be sure. You may be right, or I may be right. But all the evidence points to the fact that they didn't match, and the fact they don't share Ezio as a common Ancestor. 16 was simply the subject before Desmond whose identity and animus sessions are being kept confidential due to the failure of his sessions and his death. However, he was an assassin, and through he sessions as Adam, he discovered the truth and left clues for future subjects to find in order to reveal the truth. That's all there was to him.
P.S. Get well soon EzioTheAssassin. Don't worry about it. I took an asprin. No headache can stand before me! Mwahahaha-*cough*

jimbo11235813
01-31-2010, 04:39 AM
Yeah. I guess it just depends how you interpret the information or images they give us.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that they physically replicate the DNA (although you can replicate DNA using the PCR method to make more DNA out of small sample, often used by forensic scientists or geneticists), but just make it into a simple series of ACGT's on computer (the entire DNA code) to compare with with others people's DNA (also copied in a similar method, or if the animus can decode it, it could probably just copy them into a simple ACGT series), so if they search a gene with a sequence, lets say ACGTGC..., then they can just do a search of this gene.
It is probably easier said than done, but as with some science fiction, that's usually the case.

I know Vidic doesn't say it can search, but I wouldn't think of that as confirmation that it can't do it.

P.S. Forgot to add, we can't translate or copy DNA without organisms. Even the PCR method requires components from bacteria from hot springs, if I remember correctly.

The subconscious rejecting/repressing memories is to protect the conscious mind from traumatic events. With all the assassins we know (Ezio and Altair (and if 16 wasn't related to Ezio, then an unknown assassin, causing Vidic to push 16 hard)) they came across something that, to us and probably to them, would be so unbelievable (and possibly traumatic, finding proof that there is no God, but also that the world might end soon) that it could be repressed by the mind. It's not because Desmond himself is becomes more relaxed about it, but like hypnosis or when trying to get over a fear (a proper fear, not just something that makes you jump), he had to be eased in allowing the conscious mind to process the information without damaging it (if they push too hard, it could contribute to the bleeding effect). It's not as clear in AC2 as we can only view the memories in the DNA section in the menu (I think) that we have completed (or passed in the case of Sequence 12 and 13). But with that in mind, you may be right about the relaxed/'wanting to go in' theory, but I was thinking about Lucy's explanation about why Desmond couldn't get into the POE map while writing this.

SWJS
01-31-2010, 10:00 AM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that they physically replicate the DNA (although you can replicate DNA using the PCR method to make more DNA out of small sample, often used by forensic scientists or geneticists), but just make it into a simple series of ACGT's on computer (the entire DNA code) to compare with with others people's DNA (also copied in a similar method, or if the animus can decode it, it could probably just copy them into a simple ACGT series), so if they search a gene with a sequence, lets say ACGTGC..., then they can just do a search of this gene. I understand this point. However, the animus' function is to decode and read genetic memory, not compare nucleotides. I'm not saying that it isn't entirely possible, just highly unlikely as the concept does very little for the plot, and it isn't ever mention. If someone, say Rebecca, directly states the animus can be used to compar DNA, then I'll eat my own words. Until that happens though, this particular theory simply doesn't hold enough water to be viable.
P.S. Forgot to add, we can't translate or copy DNA without organisms. Even the PCR method requires components from bacteria from hot springs, if I remember correctly. Correct. You can't copy something unless you have an original.
The subconscious rejecting/repressing memories is to protect the conscious mind from traumatic events. With all the assassins we know (Ezio and Altair (and if 16 wasn't related to Ezio, then an unknown assassin, causing Vidic to push 16 hard)) they came across something that, to us and probably to them, would be so unbelievable (and possibly traumatic, finding proof that there is no God, but also that the world might end soon) that it could be repressed by the mind. It's not because Desmond himself is becomes more relaxed about it, but like hypnosis or when trying to get over a fear (a proper fear, not just something that makes you jump), he had to be eased in allowing the conscious mind to process the information without damaging it (if they push too hard, it could contribute to the bleeding effect). It's not as clear in AC2 as we can only view the memories in the DNA section in the menu (I think) that we have completed (or passed in the case of Sequence 12 and 13). But with that in mind, you may be right about the relaxed/'wanting to go in' theory, but I was thinking about Lucy's explanation about why Desmond couldn't get into the POE map while writing this.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif I agree.

jimbo11235813
01-31-2010, 11:52 AM
Sorry, should rephrase something. P.S. Forgot to add, we can't translate or copy DNA without the use of organisms (not necessarilry the same organism or same species). Even the PCR method requires components from bacteria from hot springs, if I remember correctly.

Blackglasswar
02-01-2010, 04:05 AM
P.S. Forgot to add, we can't translate or copy DNA without organisms. Even the PCR method requires components from bacteria from hot springs, if I remember correctly.
Correct. You can't copy something unless you have an original.

Incorrect (well - in support of your theory anyway)- when forensic scienctists take a swab of DNA from a rape victim/ crime scence/ "whatever" and compare traces of hair, body fluids, blood etc to find a criminal they compare the findings in that DNA sample to that on a database of killers DNA that has been entered into it and stored. They do not need to keep a sample of the original DNA in cryostasis in case they ever need it again, it is compared after computer analysis and is therefore likey that the animus can do that also.

jimbo11235813
02-01-2010, 04:22 AM
Ah, my mistake. I was writing about it from memory (and most of what I learnt about it was at college, and have forgotten some of the details about it as I haven't really read about it since (but need to read about it again for Uni)). Thanks for the correction.

Blackglasswar
02-01-2010, 06:26 AM
no problem.

I like learning and teaching too - I like to give the science behind science fiction a run for its money, and AC1&2 is a good "science" fiction. Granted it isn't real but that is the fiction part of sci-fi. If the science is good, it makes a more engaging life-like quality to a plot.

SWJS
02-01-2010, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Blackglasswar:
no problem.

I like learning and teaching too - I like to give the science behind science fiction a run for its money, and AC1&2 is a good "science" fiction. Granted it isn't real but that is the fiction part of sci-fi. If the science is good, it makes a more engaging life-like quality to a plot. This is something I can also agree on.

CEO_of_Abstergo
02-02-2010, 02:58 PM
The assumptions about what the Animus can or cannot do are funny. All we know is what the game videos & storyline show us, the rest is what you believe or speculate, fun as that may be. I hope it is established that Ezio and Desmond must be related according to _what the game shows_. We don't even need to talk about DNA to make this point, since the matching memory of Ezio's birth is what shows their relation:

1) Relevant memories are searched for and found between 2 subjects. "Memory Match Found" is quite a clear indication that matching saved memory between the two subjects 16 and 17 was found - see for yo'self:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1DnCNdhPPE

2) The matching memory is the birth of someone (Ezio) so they must be related to that someone to both have a MATCHING memory of their birth viewable in the Animus and by us in the cut-scene above.

I've combed through this whole thread again and everything outside of this simple 2-point logic is tangential or conjecture. And with that, I must return to building Animus 3.0. PS - If anyone knows any of George Washington's illegitimate offspring, please let me know!

SWJS
02-02-2010, 04:58 PM
@CEO: I suggest you read the following posts as they prove the theory of Desmond and 16 being related wrong.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...011077828#7011077828 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=7011077828#7011077828)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...191077828#9191077828 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=9191077828#9191077828)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...371000928#1371000928 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=1371000928#1371000928)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...931030928#3931030928 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=3931030928#3931030928)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...251091928#4251091928 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=4251091928#4251091928)

This debate was put to bed a long time ago.

Once again: Minerva Never Mentions 16. 16 Never mentions anything related to Italy or Ezio when he experiences the bleeding effect. The Animus does not compare nucleotides, it's sole purpose is decoding and reading genetic memory, as stated by Vidic in AC1. These three points alone completely disprove the theory of any relation between the two and the theory they shared Ezio as an ancestor.

PlagueDoctor357
02-02-2010, 05:18 PM
Hilarious, I love it.

Blackglasswar
02-03-2010, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
@CEO: I suggest you read the following posts as they prove the theory of Desmond and 16 being related wrong.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...011077828#7011077828 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=7011077828#7011077828)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...191077828#9191077828 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=9191077828#9191077828)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...371000928#1371000928 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=1371000928#1371000928)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...931030928#3931030928 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=3931030928#3931030928)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...251091928#4251091928 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/5131017528?r=4251091928#4251091928)

This debate was put to bed a long time ago.

Once again: Minerva Never Mentions 16. 16 Never mentions anything related to Italy or Ezio when he experiences the bleeding effect. The Animus does not compare nucleotides, it's sole purpose is decoding and reading genetic memory, as stated by Vidic in AC1. These three points alone completely disprove the theory of any relation between the two and the theory they shared Ezio as an ancestor.

What?!?! Those posts don't prove anything... they are written by you as 100% conjecture. No evidence, just hot air!

Minerva wouldn't mention 16 because 16 was not the chosen one.
"I'm not talking to you Ezio, I'm talking to Desmond... I would be talking to subject 16 but unfortunately the 1st "chosen one" dies in the future so doesn't see me like Desmond does"
At which point Ezios head explodes.

16 does not mention Italy but the fact that the glyphs are in Italy is a pretty big give away (conjecture) that he was either there or could access the memory in order to hack the code and put the glyphs there.

CEO_of_Abstergo
02-03-2010, 09:24 AM
Watch the video (link above, at 2:50 min mark).

"SEARCHING FOR RELEVANT MEMORY DATA"
"MEMORY MATCH FOUND"

It's not matching DNA or subjects or bio material. It is matching memories (recordings, duh). Perhaps you have forgotten that in AC1 / Animus 1.0 your own MEMORIES were graphically represented by DNA strands. You pick them to replay memories. That is the graphic background in what is shown - memory comparison between 16 and 17, match found, birth of Ezio.

"No One is Blinder Than He Who Will Not See"

SteelCity999
02-03-2010, 10:22 AM
If you look at things piece by piece and ignore the some of the DNA matching referenced you can make a few deductions...

1) Subject 16 was not the first to use the animus. There were likely 15 others that came before.

2) Subject 16 must have had common memories with Desmond due to some with the interactions of the animus...like some of the above posts mention.

3) Subject 16 is likely related to Desmond only by what you saw in the Truth video. That is the only thing they had in common....two worlds collide assassins are born.

So using these three basic facts one could agrue that Subject 16 was a descendant of an assassin who was there with Ezio in Italy but did not participate in finding the vault.

Look at it this way...if you are abstergo starting from scratch you probably don't get the right person with the right memories right from the get go. BUT as you go along you continually narrow down the lineage which you must find...you continually identify and remove lineages that are not necessary and zone in on the ones that are more likely to produce results. Hence Ezio's lineage is the one that opened the vault not 16's. Think of how a family tree branches off...the further you get away from the beginning the less the ancestors have in common.

So they are related but only in that initial memory.

Blackglasswar
02-03-2010, 11:22 AM
Ruling out DNA etc etc... Desmond and 16 would NEED to share Ezio as a common ancestor for the animus to match the memory to allow you to control Ezio. Vidik clearly says (see my previous threads with Youtube vids) that memories of anscestors are housed in the DNA. If the memory match is that of Ezios birth then they would have to share Ezio as an ancestor for the match to occur (I know I said DNA ruled out yada yada). If I am going to get pedantic then really the shared memory should be that of a 15th century fly that followed Ezio seeing as te game is in 3rd person but seeing as that is completely implausable I'll just throw all the theories we have thrown aroundup in the air, draw a circle on the floor and whatever lands inside of it will be our answer.

PlagueDoctor357
02-03-2010, 11:34 AM
No common ancestor.

Dude was the third party in the Adam and Eve event.

The animus was recording through his eyes, of course.

Blackglasswar
02-03-2010, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
No common ancestor.

Dude was the third party in the Adam and Eve event.

The animus was recording through his eyes, of course.

well according to a well known piece of fiction... i think its fiction because of all the magic in it... EVERYONE is related to Adam and Eve so imagine if you will that Adam and Eve had a child (ohh wait they did) and that was the 3rd person anyone would be able to get in the animus. I'm bored and this thread has become like barbed wire across my unmentionables... good bye everyone... enjoy your fairytales constructed out of nothing but thin air.

EDIT - Wait just a second... I've just watched the truth video there is no 3rd person on the roof! Unless it is the thing they are afraid of but we don't know what/ who that is yet.

jimbo11235813
02-03-2010, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by PlagueDoctor357:
No common ancestor.

Dude was the third party in the Adam and Eve event.

The animus was recording through his eyes, of course. You've played the whole game in third person, so the recordings are probably in third person as well (seeing as Minerva was looking at the camera rather than Ezio (who seemed confused about who she was talking to), this is likely to be true.)

SWJS
02-03-2010, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Blackglasswar:
What?!?! Those posts don't prove anything... they are written by you as 100% conjecture. No evidence, just hot air!

Minerva wouldn't mention 16 because 16 was not the chosen one.
"I'm not talking to you Ezio, I'm talking to Desmond... I would be talking to subject 16 but unfortunately the 1st "chosen one" dies in the future so doesn't see me like Desmond does"
At which point Ezios head explodes.

16 does not mention Italy but the fact that the glyphs are in Italy is a pretty big give away (conjecture) that he was either there or could access the memory in order to hack the code and put the glyphs there. Hot hair that proves nothing eh?

Very well then, I'll pick out a select few that prove the theory wrong.


If Vidic was obssessed with finding the Vault, he would only be able to search for it on his own time, as his primary objective is finding POEs. This is why he forces 16 to relive so many ancestors and pushes him too hard.

16 only discovered the truth about the precursor/human conflct through his common ancestor, ADAM. Thus is why he only goes through such links to reveal that specific session. He never mentions Ezio, The Vault, or Minerva.

Let's also not forget that Leila, Lucy's co-worker, was in charge of 16's animus sessions, so Lucy was never directly informed of anything except their deaths. Lucy took on both her and Leila's responsibilities at once. Meaning Lucy barely knew anything about 16, making it even more pointless to bring him up during the escape.

So after managing to hack the animus and encode his message into the memory core, Subject 16 dies, Vidic fails and is in even more hot water and under even more pressure, and Lucy, being an Assassin Spy, takes her place at his side after Leila and 16 die, allowing her to learn much more and relay this info to Shaun and Rebecca.

Bam, they move on and get Desmond, finish the hunt for POEs with the Apple's map, and Vidic states "We'll be back for you soon enough!"

Indicating they are NOT finished with Desmond, and once Vidic returns, the search for The Vault continues. Lucy knows that Vidic is looking for something in Italy and bad things will happen if Vidic finds an Ancestor in Italy who can show him what he's looking for, so she beats him to the punch. She kills a few guards, makes Desmond get in the animus so she can search for an Italian ancestor, save the data to the memory core, and bust Desmond out of captivity so the Assassins can
1) Train desmond with the bleeding effect, and
2) Find out why Vidic had such a hernia over Italy, and beat him to the punch.

Therefore, Desmond and 16 could not possibly have shared Ezio as a common ancestor, they were not compared, they were not matched, they had nothing to do with each other at all, and this debate is over.

Because the Animus doesn't record DNA. If it did, then abstergo would have been able to decode memories without having the subject inside. The Animus has only one function: Read genetic memories.

Still one major flaw. During the truth puzzles, 16 speaks. In one truth puzzle, he recalls being several different ancestors due to the bleeding effect. Once again, no mention of Italy, or Ezio. Only Queen Elizabeth, and a World War II soldier with blood on his trenchcoat. They never got the answer from 16 because he never was Ezio.

You are right. Lucy did work with him, only just after the death of Leila, her best friend and co-worker. Lucy had just started when 16 killed himself. She knew about the Animus, how it works, and it's side effects because she oversaw the assembly and initial testing. She knew 16 went mad because of the bleeding effect, but nothing more. Remember her emails in AC1 asking for info on 16 and Leila, plus the fact Leila and 16 were most likely in love?

This is actually mostly true. Lucy was studying genetic memories in college, but all the major companies declared it to be pseudo-science. Abstergo popped up and handed her the job on a silver platter. After she was finished with the project, Abstergo intended to kill her to keep her from publicly speaking of what went on there, perhaps because they found out she was an assassin. Vidic however, stepped in saying that death wasn't neccessary, and so she was left alive on the condition she never leave. It's highly likely that the entire "doctorate" setup was planned by the Assassins to infiltrate Abstergo, because if you remember, Shaun and Rebecca state that Lucy had been gone for seven years.

Not in computer terms. I've grown up with these things, they're my life, I know this. Google searches come up with the best matching source. Google doesn't compare two different words, does it? The animus is the exact same way. It searches the subject for the ancestor's memories, it reads and decodes geneic memory. It doesn't compare anything.

It says his name is confidential because Abstergo doesn't want ANYONE, not even Lucy, to know about him. As I have said, Lucy never knew that much about 16's tests. As I said above, she asks Mr. Rikkin about Leila and 16, and he refuses to disclose any info on the subject. Therefore even if lucy wanted to bring up info on 16, she couldn't because it is confidential and possibly password protected, or even compressed in a ZIP file. This would once again take too long to work around, because during the escape, they were in a hurry.
The fact the glyphs appear in Renaissance Italy proves nothing. 16 hacked the Animus' memory core, not the actual memory himself, which would be impossible, since he did not live through Ezio's life.

Blackglasswar
02-04-2010, 03:22 AM
Thank you for another half page of conjecture. I have taken the time to highlight the facts (aka evidence) and weed out the rubbish that is included in your ramble below as well as providing a blow by blow reference guide to why it is either fact or rubbish at the bottom of this thread...


Hot hair that proves nothing eh?

Very well then, I'll pick out a select few that prove the theory wrong.

<STRIKE>If Vidic was obssessed with finding the Vault, he would only be able to search for it on his own time, as his primary objective is finding POEs. This is why he forces 16 to relive so many ancestors and pushes him too hard.</STRIKE> - 1

<STRIKE>16 only discovered the truth about the precursor/human conflct through his common ancestor, ADAM. Thus is why he only goes through such links to reveal that specific session. He never mentions Ezio, The Vault, or Minerva.</STRIKE> - 2

Let's also not forget that Leila, Lucy's co-worker, was in charge of 16's animus sessions, so Lucy was never directly informed of anything except their deaths. - 3 Lucy took on both her and Leila's responsibilities at once. Meaning Lucy barely knew anything about 16, making it even more pointless to bring him up during the escape.

So after managing to hack the animus and encode his message into the memory core, Subject 16 dies, Vidic fails and is in even more hot water and under even more pressure, and Lucy, being an Assassin Spy, takes her place at his side after Leila and 16 die, allowing her to learn much more and relay this info to Shaun and Rebecca. - 4

...

Therefore, Desmond and 16 could not possibly have shared Ezio as a common ancestor, <STRIKE>they were not compared, they were not matched, they had nothing to do with each other at all, and this debate is over.</STRIKE>

<STRIKE>Because the Animus doesn't record DNA. If it did, then abstergo would have been able to decode memories without having the subject inside. The Animus has only one function: Read genetic memories.</STRIKE> - 5

Still one major flaw. During the truth puzzles, 16 speaks. In one truth puzzle, he recalls being several different ancestors due to the bleeding effect. Once again, no mention of Italy, or Ezio. Only Queen Elizabeth, and a World War II soldier with blood on his trenchcoat. They never got the answer from 16 because he never was Ezio. - 6


This is actually mostly true. (Haha - love what you have just admitteed to... "This is MOSTLY TRUE" - EPIC FAIL!!!) Lucy was studying genetic memories in college, but all the major companies declared it to be pseudo-science. Abstergo popped up and handed her the job on a silver platter. After she was finished with the project, Abstergo intended to kill her to keep her from publicly speaking of what went on there, perhaps because they found out she was an assassin. Vidic however, stepped in saying that death wasn't neccessary, and so she was left alive on the condition she never leave. It's highly likely that the entire "doctorate" setup was planned by the Assassins to infiltrate Abstergo, because if you remember, Shaun and Rebecca state that Lucy had been gone for seven years.

Not in computer terms. I've grown up with these things, they're my life, I know this. Google searches come up with the best matching source. Google doesn't compare two different words, does it? The animus is the exact same way. It searches the subject for the ancestor's memories, it reads and decodes geneic memory. It doesn't compare anything.

....


References

-1; His own time??? Are you refering to his weekends or to his space-time (the here and now). Either way it is not mentioned in either AC1 or AC2 what Vidik is after. All we know is that Abstergo want world domination.

-2; The truth video is of Adam and Eve, which according to "some people" were the first 2 humans so EVERYONE is desended from them if you believe that. The title "The Truth" is just referring about the truth of the garden of Eden, it does not need to mention Ezio.

-3; YAY - a concrete fact from one of the emails in AC1...

-4; Another one, damn your good. Unfortunately that fact is nothing to do with the subject 16 argument... I just like to congratulate when you provide a REAL fact.

-5; Ooh... sorry we were looking for a fact. Thanks for playing, have you had a good time? All we know is that the Animus allows the memories within DNA to be accessed and "re-lived" through ancestors. If you clearly watch the Youtube video from AC2 that I posted in a previous response you will see that the nucleotides ARE highlighted and ARE compared with Desmonds and there IS a match. Whether the DNA from Subject 16 is coming directly from the Animus or from the mainframe server housed in the IT department it is brought up and compared. Google has to compare the content of a web page to match it to your search... Animus SEARCHES the DNA to FIND a MATCH, couple this with the clear MATCH that Desmond and 16 get in the youtube vid and (to phrase it in your caveman language) BAM!!! Rararararara

-6; Those are 2 of his ancestors... even you have more than 2 ancestors. He mumbles a lot of things that are memories that you cannot place with an ancestor. The truth is not about Ezio it is all about the truth regarding Genesis and the birth of man. Once again its Science(fiction) versus religion. I'll side with Darwin (which interestingly Christians DID NOT disagree with, the thing they disliked about it was how it showed the world for being a harsh and cruel exsitance for animals).

Yes, the Animus decodes memories
Yes, they are in a hurry
Yes, Vidik is your sterotypical villian

BUT Ubisoft have planned this AC Saga and so wouldn't put some random rubbish in there if it was not relevant.

SWJS
02-04-2010, 11:12 PM
-1; His own time??? Are you refering to his weekends or to his space-time (the here and now). Either way it is not mentioned in either AC1 or AC2 what Vidik is after. All we know is that Abstergo want world domination. Correction. Abstergo wants to collect the apples of eden, to launch sattelites with the apples into space, to brainwash humanity into being peaceful. Lucy states Vidic had a huge obssession with Italy. However, Vidic was on a deadline and under strict orders to locate the Apple Map, so if Vidic would have wanted to search Italy for an answer, he would have to do it off of Abstergo's schedule, or in other words, keep a subject in the machine 24/7 to search for the map during scheduled sessions, and search Italy during the subjects' rest time. This explains how Abstergo went through so many subjects so quickly.

-2; The truth video is of Adam and Eve, which according to "some people" were the first 2 humans so EVERYONE is desended from them if you believe that. The title "The Truth" is just referring about the truth of the garden of Eden, it does not need to mention Ezio. No it doesn't. As a matter of fact, it shows the entire precursor civillization before the war and the cataclysm. This is far more valuable than the memory of the Vault, considering Adam and Eve may have been born from assassin/precursor hybrids, explaining their immunity to the POEs, they probably would have witnessed the cataclysm first-hand. Perhaps in the later Adam/Eve sessions, Minerva and the afformentioned two left 16 a message instructing him to spread the word about what really happened back then?
-4; Another one, damn your good. Unfortunately that fact is nothing to do with the subject 16 argument... I just like to congratulate when you provide a REAL fact. If you'd payed any attention, you would have realised that it does. The fact that Vidic fails and doesn't find what he's looking for proves that 16 doesn't share a common ancestor with Desmond. 16 dies before Vidic even comes close, but, he probably could have gotten clues from 16's Adam and Eve sessions, which is probably why he wanted to come back for more tests with Desmond.
-5; Ooh... sorry we were looking for a fact. Thanks for playing, have you had a good time? All we know is that the Animus allows the memories within DNA to be accessed and "re-lived" through ancestors. If you clearly watch the Youtube video from AC2 that I posted in a previous response you will see that the nucleotides ARE highlighted and ARE compared with Desmonds and there IS a match. Whether the DNA from Subject 16 is coming directly from the Animus or from the mainframe server housed in the IT department it is brought up and compared. Google has to compare the content of a web page to match it to your search... Animus SEARCHES the DNA to FIND a MATCH, couple this with the clear MATCH that Desmond and 16 get in the youtube vid and (to phrase it in your caveman language) BAM!!! Rararararara Vidic outright states the Animus' purpose is to decode and read the ancestral memories stored in the DNA. Care to rewatch the opening of AC1 and realize this before you continue to make me laugh with your ludicrous "I'm right and you're an idiot." statements. The facts have been right in front of you the entire time. The animus searches the SUBJECT'S DNA for ancestral memories, then decodes and reads said memories. Once AGAIN, it does not store or record DNA. If you'll remember the Animus interface in AC1, you'll see that once the animus decodes the memories, it stores the information from the memories in a text file associated with the memory. It also records video of the memories. And you'll also realize that Desmond has to be inside the machine for him, Lucy, or Vidic to pull up these memories. Lucy and Vidic say it hundreds of times. "We can't start until you're in the machine!" "Get in the Machine Mr. Miles!" This proves that 16's memories cannot be directly accessed anymore, and the only things that can are text files and recordings.
-6; Those are 2 of his ancestors... even you have more than 2 ancestors. He mumbles a lot of things that are memories that you cannot place with an ancestor. The truth is not about Ezio it is all about the truth regarding Genesis and the birth of man. Once again its Science(fiction) versus religion. I'll side with Darwin (which interestingly Christians DID NOT disagree with, the thing they disliked about it was how it showed the world for being a harsh and cruel exsitance for animals). Incorrect. He mentions about 5 or 6 different things about an ancestor or related to an ancestor. All the things he mentions were not around in Ezio's time, and were not from Italy. Trenchoats and Bayonets weren't even invented until about the 20th century.
BUT Ubisoft have planned this AC Saga and so wouldn't put some random rubbish in there if it was not relevant. Incorrect. Ubisoft weren't ever really sure how AC would turn out until work on AC2 began. Take a moment and travel to page 3 or 4 and read PlagueDoctor's post mentioning the contradicting series retcon.

Despite the retcon though, Ubisoft have hidden just enough backstory information throughout the games. None of it is rubbish, it is indeed fact, which has been proven countless times through countless posts, by referencing direct information from the games themselves.

I suggest you cease calling the facts rubbish and come up with actual, concrete proof that Desmond and 16 are related. Oh that's right, they aren't, because it is fact.

CEO_of_Abstergo
02-05-2010, 12:18 PM
What people say in interpreting a work, novel, movie, video game story, is a subjective thing. I find it fun (and part of my career). But what is written, shown, or displayed is emperical, factual. You can argue what it all means (whole religions and wars spawn from that), but no one can argue which words are clearly written on a page. This whole thread truly confuses these two polar opposites.

The first cutscene SHOWS with both graphics and all-capped english text that "relevant memory data is searched for" between on-screen subject 16 and 17, and that "memory match found". The result of such a search is then SHOWN to us - birth of Ezio.

It did not SHOW a general Italian setting, nor some uncle nearby unrelated but there, nor the villages Ezio later travelled to, nor any other wider conjectured memory - it SHOWS the point-of-view of Ezio being born.

Both subjects with that "relevant matched memory" of Ezio being born must therefore be _related to Ezio_ for it to be in their DNA and animus-visible memory scenes.

Further support in later cutscenes: If there were not relevant Ezio memories lived between Subj 16 and 17/Desmond, there would be NO CORE MEMORIES TO STEAL FROM ABSTERGO to take to the hideout. It is because they steal memories of (something relevant to Italy) that they find hacked glyphs. But what is searched/found as relevant between 16-17 is not a mysterious "something relevant to Italy" - it is the BIRTH OF EZIO. It is shown to us as the common memory. So they related, no other option based on what is SHOWN.

That is called fact, and proof based on what is shown. Interpret those facts as you will. Maybe 16 did not live out Ezio memories fully, maybe he died poking in/out as Ezio, maybe he did everything Desmond did as Ezio but didn't get to the vault (no glyphs in Vatican buildings after all) - all interpretation. But what is SHOWN/FACT is that they have a "matched memory" of Ezio being born (alone with mom and midwives). That makes them both descendents of Ezio. Now moving on...

SWJS
02-05-2010, 04:24 PM
That is called fact, and proof based on what is shown. Interpret those facts as you will. Maybe 16 did not live out Ezio memories fully, maybe he died poking in/out as Ezio, maybe he did everything Desmond did as Ezio but didn't get to the vault (no glyphs in Vatican buildings after all) - all interpretation. But what is SHOWN/FACT is that they have a "matched memory" of Ezio being born (alone with mom and midwives). That makes them both descendents of Ezio. Now moving on... Not moving on. You fail to realize that through several examples from BOTH games, brought up hundreds of times, prove that they did not match and could not possibly have matched. The animus was searching for relevant memory data in the current subject, and found a match with Desmond and his common ancestor. The animus, for the 5000th time, does not record or store DNA, nor does it compare nucleotides. It is stated hundreds of times, the animus' purpose is to decode and read genetic memory. For Desmond to have matched with 16, they would both have to be in the machine at the same time, because, as I have said before, the subject MUST be in the machine in order for it to access the genetic memories. 16 could not have relived Ezio's life. Are are several moments in the game where he could have brought up Italy, and the Vault, and everything else important to the plot. Yet he never acknowledges Italy at all. Why? He was never explicitly forced to relive an italian ancestor. He dies long before Vidic is able to get anywhere with him. However, he does relive the events involving the Precursors and humans. All the information he could have ever needed is in those sessions, meaning the vault memory from Ezio would mean nothing compared to the knowledge in those sessions. Also, as stated before, 16 relives the lives of countless ancestors. He could have found another vault, not necessarily the Vatican Vault. All the facts and the evidence we have from the games and their backstories points to 16 having no relation with Desmond. One short cutscene does not justify the facts or the evidence. There was no match between the two. They are not related. They do not share Ezio as a common ancestor. Period.

Pat0307
02-06-2010, 10:32 AM
I just found something huge, im my perspective.

There was a girl that worked in Abstergo named leila Marino. She had a romantic link to Subject Sixteen ( rumored to be named Neumann) which is not described. It could be as little as puppy love, or as big as married. So if they were married, his name would be Neumann Marino. I looked it up on a genealogy website and the name Marino is of Italian origin. Leila and Neumann could have had child (Desmond) and changed his last name to Miles to protect his identity as an assassin(it is also stated that he faked his last name when buying things). and because desmond 's family tree relates to an Italian (Ezio), he has to be somewhat Italian. So the way i see it, Leila and Neumann Marino(subject 16) are the parents of Desmond Miles.

Marino genealogy: http://genealogy.about.com/lib...m/bl_name-MARINO.htm (http://genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/m/bl_name-MARINO.htm)

Leila Marino: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Leila

Subject 16: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Subject_16

Desmond Miles: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Desmond

SWJS
02-06-2010, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Pat0307:
I just found something huge, im my perspective.

There was a girl that worked in Abstergo named leila Marino. She had a romantic link to Subject Sixteen ( rumored to be named Neumann) which is not described. It could be as little as puppy love, or as big as married. So if they were married, his name would be Neumann Marino. I looked it up on a genealogy website and the name Marino is of Italian origin. Leila and Neumann could have had child (Desmond) and changed his last name to Miles to protect his identity as an assassin(it is also stated that he faked his last name when buying things). and because desmond 's family tree relates to an Italian (Ezio), he has to be somewhat Italian. So the way i see it, Leila and Neumann Marino(subject 16) are the parents of Desmond Miles.

Marino genealogy: http://genealogy.about.com/lib...m/bl_name-MARINO.htm (http://genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/m/bl_name-MARINO.htm)

Leila Marino: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Leila

Subject 16: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Subject_16

Desmond Miles: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Desmond Actually, I have brought this up more than once in this very thread. Neumann is a German surname, not a first name. Leila was to Subject 16 as Lucy is to Desmond. It's brought up in the emails in AC1 several times. 16 and Leila couldn't possibly be Desmonds' parents. They were both around Desmond's age when they were in Abstergo.

iKoako
02-06-2010, 10:21 PM
"In the beginning of the game, Lucy searches for the closest genetic match between Subject 16 and Desmond, and the memory of Ezio's birth appears, suggesting that he is an ancestor of both. "

SWJS
02-06-2010, 11:56 PM
@iKoako: I've gone and dug up this post proving that theory wrong. Please take the time to read it.


Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blackglasswar:
What?!?! Those posts don't prove anything... they are written by you as 100% conjecture. No evidence, just hot air!

Minerva wouldn't mention 16 because 16 was not the chosen one.
"I'm not talking to you Ezio, I'm talking to Desmond... I would be talking to subject 16 but unfortunately the 1st "chosen one" dies in the future so doesn't see me like Desmond does"
At which point Ezios head explodes.

16 does not mention Italy but the fact that the glyphs are in Italy is a pretty big give away (conjecture) that he was either there or could access the memory in order to hack the code and put the glyphs there. Hot hair that proves nothing eh?

Very well then, I'll pick out a select few that prove the theory wrong.


If Vidic was obssessed with finding the Vault, he would only be able to search for it on his own time, as his primary objective is finding POEs. This is why he forces 16 to relive so many ancestors and pushes him too hard.

16 only discovered the truth about the precursor/human conflct through his common ancestor, ADAM. Thus is why he only goes through such links to reveal that specific session. He never mentions Ezio, The Vault, or Minerva.

Let's also not forget that Leila, Lucy's co-worker, was in charge of 16's animus sessions, so Lucy was never directly informed of anything except their deaths. Lucy took on both her and Leila's responsibilities at once. Meaning Lucy barely knew anything about 16, making it even more pointless to bring him up during the escape.

So after managing to hack the animus and encode his message into the memory core, Subject 16 dies, Vidic fails and is in even more hot water and under even more pressure, and Lucy, being an Assassin Spy, takes her place at his side after Leila and 16 die, allowing her to learn much more and relay this info to Shaun and Rebecca.

Bam, they move on and get Desmond, finish the hunt for POEs with the Apple's map, and Vidic states "We'll be back for you soon enough!"

Indicating they are NOT finished with Desmond, and once Vidic returns, the search for The Vault continues. Lucy knows that Vidic is looking for something in Italy and bad things will happen if Vidic finds an Ancestor in Italy who can show him what he's looking for, so she beats him to the punch. She kills a few guards, makes Desmond get in the animus so she can search for an Italian ancestor, save the data to the memory core, and bust Desmond out of captivity so the Assassins can
1) Train desmond with the bleeding effect, and
2) Find out why Vidic had such a hernia over Italy, and beat him to the punch.

Therefore, Desmond and 16 could not possibly have shared Ezio as a common ancestor, they were not compared, they were not matched, they had nothing to do with each other at all, and this debate is over.

Because the Animus doesn't record DNA. If it did, then abstergo would have been able to decode memories without having the subject inside. The Animus has only one function: Read genetic memories.

Still one major flaw. During the truth puzzles, 16 speaks. In one truth puzzle, he recalls being several different ancestors due to the bleeding effect. Once again, no mention of Italy, or Ezio. Only Queen Elizabeth, and a World War II soldier with blood on his trenchcoat. They never got the answer from 16 because he never was Ezio.

You are right. Lucy did work with him, only just after the death of Leila, her best friend and co-worker. Lucy had just started when 16 killed himself. She knew about the Animus, how it works, and it's side effects because she oversaw the assembly and initial testing. She knew 16 went mad because of the bleeding effect, but nothing more. Remember her emails in AC1 asking for info on 16 and Leila, plus the fact Leila and 16 were most likely in love?

This is actually mostly true. Lucy was studying genetic memories in college, but all the major companies declared it to be pseudo-science. Abstergo popped up and handed her the job on a silver platter. After she was finished with the project, Abstergo intended to kill her to keep her from publicly speaking of what went on there, perhaps because they found out she was an assassin. Vidic however, stepped in saying that death wasn't neccessary, and so she was left alive on the condition she never leave. It's highly likely that the entire "doctorate" setup was planned by the Assassins to infiltrate Abstergo, because if you remember, Shaun and Rebecca state that Lucy had been gone for seven years.

Not in computer terms. I've grown up with these things, they're my life, I know this. Google searches come up with the best matching source. Google doesn't compare two different words, does it? The animus is the exact same way. It searches the subject for the ancestor's memories, it reads and decodes geneic memory. It doesn't compare anything.

It says his name is confidential because Abstergo doesn't want ANYONE, not even Lucy, to know about him. As I have said, Lucy never knew that much about 16's tests. As I said above, she asks Mr. Rikkin about Leila and 16, and he refuses to disclose any info on the subject. Therefore even if lucy wanted to bring up info on 16, she couldn't because it is confidential and possibly password protected, or even compressed in a ZIP file. This would once again take too long to work around, because during the escape, they were in a hurry.
The fact the glyphs appear in Renaissance Italy proves nothing. 16 hacked the Animus' memory core, not the actual memory himself, which would be impossible, since he did not live through Ezio's life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DefiantClone
02-07-2010, 07:02 AM
I think y'all are looking at it wrong or too in-depth, just my opinion.
The way I took the meaning was that they were originally working on something (ie. Collecting the apple and staff or finding the locations) with subject 16 that took place in Florence, Venice etc during that time frame etc... When subject 16 went crazy and killed himself, they had to stop the mission temporarily and try to find other methods of acquiring the location.
Enter Edmund and the fact that he had an ancestor that was an assassin during that time frame which could be used to complete the mission or parallel 16s memory/character, not that him and subject 16 had anything DNA related in common other then they were both assassins during the same time!?
Which is what I think she was searching for a time frame reference that matched subject 16s memory not a DNA matches per say? On another note they probably found out about Ezio and his story via subjects 16s memories from both people crossing paths etc.
For all we know subject 16s character could have been one of the 6 or however many assassins that appeared to you at the later part of the game.
Thatís my take on it, I never thought about it in terms of internet and searching etc. I look at it to finding an ancestral match to the time frame to proceed with the mission.

bokeef04
02-07-2010, 03:59 PM
i approve of the above post

just because you have a memory of someone doesn't mean your related, to use a real life example, if i got in the animus and you searched for memories of say Master Toddy then you'd get a match, but I'm in no way related to him, also, we have no way of knowing what Lucy actually searched for, she could have just searched for the year 1476

SWJS
02-07-2010, 04:51 PM
And I approve of these posts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Blackglasswar
02-08-2010, 06:35 AM
Yawn...

If the memories match it isn't because you have the memory of SEEING that person, you have the memory of BEING decended from that person.

Vidik as in previous quotes/ posts... blah blah blah... i can stand here on a soap box until 2012 comes around and we will all be talking in raised voices still. I might just double blade my own eyes soon so I can't see all this unevidenced awful theory develop that Sub 16 and Desmond don't share Ezio as a common ancestor.

jimbo11235813
02-08-2010, 06:39 AM
But whatever she searched, 16 still appeared during the search? You can't reject this, seeing as he wasn't in the animus and Desmond was, yet both pieces of DNA had nucleotides highlighted in similar locations. You can't just push this aside as if the game makers were lazy, or that it was just for show.

It can't just be time range as I'm guessing most of the assassins in AC2 are different ages and a range would be too vague to get an accurate answer (we could've ended up becoming Giovanni or Ezio's mother). And also with a time range, there is no need to bring up 16.

It's true that Lucy was in a hurry, but maybe that was why she brought up 16, to search Desmond using the digital recording of 16's DNA (please don't say it doesn't record it, but whose to say they haven't recorded it with other equipment).


And yes, it's also true that we don't know what Lucy was searching, but that is barely evidence at all that Desmond isn't related to 16 through Ezio. In fact, it just brings you back into the middle of the argument (neither for or against).

Blackglasswar
02-08-2010, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by jimbo_323:
But whatever she searched, 16 still appeared during the search? You can't reject this, seeing as he wasn't in the animus and Desmond was, yet both pieces of DNA had nucleotides highlighted in similar locations. You can't just push this aside as if the game makers were lazy, or that it was just for show.

It can't just be time range as I'm guessing most of the assassins in AC2 are different ages and a range would be too vague to get an accurate answer (we could've ended up becoming Giovanni or Ezio's mother). And also with a time range, there is no need to bring up 16.

It's true that Lucy was in a hurry, but maybe that was why she brought up 16, to search Desmond using the digital recording of 16's DNA (please don't say it doesn't record it, but whose to say they haven't recorded it with other equipment).


And yes, it's also true that we don't know what Lucy was searching, but that is barely evidence at all that Desmond isn't related to 16 through Ezio. In fact, it just brings you back into the middle of the argument (neither for or against).

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

We have found ourselves in a good old polarised debate... you take your side...

Republican or Democrat
Labour or Conservative
Related or Unrelated
Evidence or Hypothetics

What we have seen indicates to me that Sub 16 and Desmond are related, however as with any investigation there will be those that say I am reading the evidence as such because it furthers my argument whilst others choose to read what has been shown/ told to us in game the opposite way. Its good old fashioned peer review... Scientists are always trying to say "my theory of the Universe is better than yours because mine says x" yet they have the same universe to study and to go by, so why should the general public be any different

SWJS
02-08-2010, 10:27 AM
Fine. Believe what ever you want, I no longer care. I have proven the theory that they do not match over and over again with credible evidence, yet no one in this thread has actually read it or just can't comprehend the massive amounts of backstory to understand what I'm saying, so believe what you want, go ahead and succumb to templar mind control.

I wash my hands of this entire thing, for I'm tired of having to endlessly repeat myself to prove a point.

My belief still stands, and it will stand unless someone can provide concrete evidence to prove otherwise. "The nucleotides light up" does not a good argument make.

Unless 16 says he's been Ezio in a glyph file, unless Lucy explicitly says they are related, unless minerva pops up and says "Mr. Neumann is your distant cousin", then I will not believe that they are related, when all evidence points to the fact that they aren't.

CEO_of_Abstergo
02-08-2010, 01:15 PM
EzioAssassin - With respect, your entire argument (that they are not related) is based on the supposition that there was no match of memory data between 16 and 17, rather a match between Desmond and some mysterious ancestor not on the screen. You in summary state that again here:

-----You fail to realize that through several examples from BOTH games, brought up hundreds of times, prove that they did not match and could not possibly have matched. The animus was searching for relevant memory data in the current subject, and found a match with Desmond and his common ancestor.----

In watching the video, subj16 and Desmond come on screen for comparison and match is found. All fans can view it and draw their own conclusions on whether the found match was bewteen Desmond and sub16 (making them related) or between Desmond and some myesterious un-named unshown animus-subjected relative.

Since however no other candidate appears in the video or on screen except 16 and 17, a memory comparison with this "mystery subject" is considered conjecture. You are entitled to that conjecture, but c'mon, quoting YOUR OWN POSTS is far from anything termed "fact" or "proven". Maybe they are related as most posts here insist they are, maybe they are not, but the only thing that is FACT is what is shown in the video. All should draw their own conclusions from that, not from what all us fools here have to say about it. :-)

Requiescat in Pace.

Blackglasswar
02-08-2010, 03:23 PM
Maybe they are related as most posts here insist they are, maybe they are not, but the only thing that is FACT is what is shown in the video. All should draw their own conclusions from that, not from what all us fools here have to say about it. :-)

Requiescat in Pace.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

we are all fools! haha! Thanks CEO

SWJS
02-08-2010, 04:25 PM
Since however no other candidate appears in the video or on screen except 16 and 17, a memory comparison with this "mystery subject" is considered conjecture. You are entitled to that conjecture, but c'mon, quoting YOUR OWN POSTS is far from anything termed "fact" or "proven". Maybe they are related as most posts here insist they are, maybe they are not, but the only thing that is FACT is what is shown in the video. All should draw their own conclusions from that, not from what all us fools here have to say about it. :-)
To be fair, I didn't just quote myself, I also quoted plaguedoctor, who did bring up some very good points.

Even if it did appear that they were compared, there is still little evidence to support the commond ancestor theory.

However, each person is entitled to his/her opinion. To each his own.

Watch Ac3 come around and it turn out that Sixteen was his father, Rebecca and Shawn were in-laws, and Vidic was his grandfather. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

godsmack_darius
02-08-2010, 05:41 PM
K, (in my opinion) It would be dumb for them to be related, what sort of significance would it have, its has been done to much, and even if he was, HE IS DEAD, it wouldnt make a difference, I hope their not related it would just mess things up. And the matching DNA theory, I hope you noticed that Subject 16 had an ancestor in Italy as well, Lucy said so, then she said she knew for a fact that Desmond probably had one their too. Unfortunatly I have a YLOD of my PS3 therefore I cant play it, And im very angry about it too -_-

SteelCity999
03-02-2010, 02:10 PM
I just started a new game last night and I watched this very carefully. Subject 16 and 17(Desmond) were brought up on the screen before anything else was ever displayed. It then appears that Lucy searches for a memory match based on 17 and NOT 16 or 16 and 17. The whole reason why 16 is up on the screen is because she is taking the memory core with her to the hideout so it can be analyzed. There is never any matches said to be found between 16 and 17. Just pay attention to the sequence not what is put up on the screen. So the whole argument of whether they are related based on this screen or series of events is just conjecture but the odds would be against them being closely related, i.e, maybe 15 or more generations ago where the family tree split.

jimbo11235813
03-02-2010, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by SteelCity999:
I just started a new game last night and I watched this very carefully. Subject 16 and 17(Desmond) were brought up on the screen before anything else was ever displayed. It then appears that Lucy searches for a memory match based on 17 and NOT 16 or 16 and 17. The whole reason why 16 is up on the screen is because she is taking the memory core with her to the hideout so it can be analyzed. There is never any matches said to be found between 16 and 17. Just pay attention to the sequence not what is put up on the screen. So the whole argument of whether they are related based on this screen or series of events is just conjecture but the odds would be against them being closely related, i.e, maybe 15 or more generations ago where the family tree split.

Wrote most of the following down before rereading the last thing you said. I think most of agree that they are distantly related (if not Ezio, then probably Altair), but the argument is whether they are related through Ezio (or, at least, this is was the thread has become).

I've left what I've written to just add to the arguments I've made before (also tired while writing this, so please excuse the mistakes:


The reasons for assuming they are related through Ezio is because A)16's subject number appeared while Lucy was doing the search; B)it started the search, some of 16 nucleotides flashed and then some of Desmonds (looked like the same ones), suggesting that there is something in common; and C)It says something like "memory match found" which suggests a specific genetic memory was compared with another piece of DNA and a match was found (note that she found Ezio too easily to be just a general search).

Now about the odds of relation. Lets there is a possible 15 generations. Using that, lets say that Ezio had 2 children (could be 1 or could be more) and his children had 2 children, and so on. That would be 2^15, making that 32,768 at the 15th generation including Desmond. Some wouldn't survive, but as Desmond exists, there is at least one branch from Ezio that exists to that day and most likely much more.
There are about 6,000,000,000 (rounded down for simplification later, 7 billion would be harder to work with as it isn't easily divisible by 30,000, and would look slightly messy) in the world today. Seems unlikely, but Abstergo target Assassins (anyone related to the Hashshashin), which would narrow it down (lets say to 6,000,000). That there are roughly 1 person related to Ezio to every 200 Assassins (this is theoretical of course). So the chances of finding 2 Ezio related people is about 1 in 40,000 (simplified). Appears unlikely, but better than the chances if they picked at random from the world (and would be a poor way to run the project).

Finally, we don't know that the memory core was taken for analysis, but we do know that it was taken so the the Animus 2.0 could be usable sooner (said when Lucy gives the core to Rebecca).

Sorry for the long post, but it took a while writing this, and work out, and I didn't want to waste it after misreading SteelCity999's comment.