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View Full Version : Help - want to assess FB's zoom factor vs. reality (warning, pics)



XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 03:30 PM
Some of you know that I fly with three monitors, which is pretty darn cool to do. That said, I often wonder what size the cockpits really were compared to what I'm seeing. I need a frame of reference, at least to know, and probably to stick to the right zoom more in the end.

So, does anyone have some dimensions of gunsights of FB planes? If I knew the appropriate size then I could calibrate my zoom setup to match. I'm guessing zoom X may not work for all of us because of varying monitor sizes etc...

FB clearly allows you to have a much wider FOV and much closer zoom than in real life. Sitting in the cockpit of a WW2 bird, things are much more compressed than what we see on our little zoomed out (or in) screens....

So, anyone know some dimensions I can then match against? I'm guessing Gibbage may but any help appreciated. Widths of pits, gunsights, sticks, whatever.

Thanks!


<p align="center"> http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/Spit.jpg
Tongue-tied & twisted,
just an earthbound misfit,
I.
</CENTER>
</p>



Message Edited on 07/02/0309:26AM by Dexmeister

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 03:30 PM
Some of you know that I fly with three monitors, which is pretty darn cool to do. That said, I often wonder what size the cockpits really were compared to what I'm seeing. I need a frame of reference, at least to know, and probably to stick to the right zoom more in the end.

So, does anyone have some dimensions of gunsights of FB planes? If I knew the appropriate size then I could calibrate my zoom setup to match. I'm guessing zoom X may not work for all of us because of varying monitor sizes etc...

FB clearly allows you to have a much wider FOV and much closer zoom than in real life. Sitting in the cockpit of a WW2 bird, things are much more compressed than what we see on our little zoomed out (or in) screens....

So, anyone know some dimensions I can then match against? I'm guessing Gibbage may but any help appreciated. Widths of pits, gunsights, sticks, whatever.

Thanks!


<p align="center"> http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/Spit.jpg
Tongue-tied & twisted,
just an earthbound misfit,
I.
</CENTER>
</p>



Message Edited on 07/02/0309:26AM by Dexmeister

Tully__
07-02-2003, 03:39 PM
Try this on for size:


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/zoomview.jpg


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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 03:42 PM
That's interesting but what I'm wondering is how wide a gunsight should be to be realistic.



<p align="center"> http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/Spit.jpg
Tongue-tied & twisted,
just an earthbound misfit,
I.
</CENTER>
</p>

michapma
07-02-2003, 04:09 PM
I don't remember who but somebody did an assessment of this already, although it may have been somewhat indirect to your inuqiry. With some math (similar triangles iirc) they determined how large a given aircraft (such as Bf 109) appears to a pilot (in a real cockpit) at a given distance (say 100m for argument's sake), then compared that to the size as you see it on the monitor when it is at the same distance (100m) in IL-2/FB. This assumes you are sitting with your eyes a given distance from the monitor (it was a reasonable assumption). I don't recall whether he took dpi of the screen into consideration, but let's assume that its variability is small for most screens.

The result was that on-screen size in the gunsight view (Del key) was very close to the calculated size. The other two sizes were then obviously far too small. So in fact the "zoomed in" gunsight view is not zoomed in at all. It's the size you'd (almost) really see things. The other two views are simply less restrictive.

I actually thought about this the other day when thinking back on your multi-monitor setup. Was wondering whether you'd be willing to make one or two screenshots with the gunsight view, and compare them to the same views with the other two zoom factors. How 'bout it?

Regards,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 04:51 PM
It struck me a while ago that it's pretty obvious that the 'zoomed in' view is closest to reality. The gun sight is about gunsight sized. Cockpit instruments are about cockpit instrument sized. In any other view, they are much smaller than the real thing.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 05:00 PM
michapma wrote:
Was
- wondering whether you'd be willing to make one or
- two screenshots with the gunsight view, and compare
- them to the same views with the other two zoom
- factors. How 'bout it?
-
- Regards,
- Mike


Will do. Check back in a bit. I'll also take some photos of my monitors and post them too.



<p align="center"> http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/Spit.jpg
Tongue-tied & twisted,
just an earthbound misfit,
I.
</CENTER>
</p>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 05:26 PM
Okay, all images were shrunk quite a bit to accommodate for bandwidth issues for users.... Also, there's a tape measure on top of the monitors to give some size perspective. Total width of three monitors is ~ 53" at the longest point.

Somehow I think gunsight is too big when you consider cockpit size. It may be right if you're looking at bandit size but I'm more concerned with the sizing of the cockpit. Anyone able to help in this dilemma?

Okay, here goes:

Gunsight view, in-game and in "cockpit" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/FBFOV/fov1.jpg


http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/FBFOV/fovphoto1.jpg



"Normal View"

http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/FBFOV/fov2.jpg


http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/FBFOV/fovphoto2.jpg



"Wide view"

http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/FBFOV/fov3.jpg


http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/FBFOV/fovphoto3.jpg




<p align="center"> http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/Spit.jpg
Tongue-tied & twisted,
just an earthbound misfit,
I.
</CENTER>
</p>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 05:39 PM
Is the wide view part of the in-game view selections? b/c i've never seen it before. =0

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 05:41 PM
Delete, End and PgDn keys select the views. Keep in mind single-monitor users only see the middle part unless they swivel their mouse/hat to look left/right.

So anyone know measurements? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Anyone? Anyone? Gibbage? Anyone?



<p align="center"> http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/Spit.jpg
Tongue-tied & twisted,
just an earthbound misfit,
I.
</CENTER>
</p>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 05:55 PM
I've got an RAF WW2 boost gauge , so I measured it and compared it with the one in the Hurricane cockpit.
Real dial is approximately 2.5 inches across.
In zoomed in view, the one in the Hurri cockpit on my screen is between 2.5 inches and 2.25 inches (not circular because of distortion from not looking at it straight on).

EDIT -
OK, I've found the dimensions of the Revi.
http://paparomeo.freeyellow.com/images/P39pages.jpg

On my monitor, it's about bang on in zoomed in view.





Message Edited on 07/02/0306:16PM by mikeyg007

michapma
07-03-2003, 11:00 AM
Thanks for those pics, Dex. For my part I would want to get those other two monitors more around to the side, to where they show a geometry more in line with the cockpit perspective. I think it would bother me a little looking just to the side and seeing a full 90&deg; worth of view. I guess it works for you pretty well though!

Nice setup.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

Tully__
07-03-2003, 11:18 AM
Zoom is at most 3:2, maybe closer to 1:1. The others are at least 2:1 or more. Zoom is closest to real life magnification.

Remember you have "Shift-F1 engaged which has the pilot leaned towards the sight, making it appear larger.

<center> ================================================== ========================= </center>

<center> <img src=http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg> </center>

<center> The "under performing planes" thread (http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=007540) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </center>
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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 12:28 PM
How did you succeed in making that 3monitor setup work? Or is it already described in another thread?

michapma
07-03-2003, 12:35 PM
The 3-monitor setup requires a special graphics card (Matrox Parahelia I think) and a powerful system to get decent frame rates. We discussed Dex's setup in another thread.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 01:35 PM
When you use the gunsight Dex, do you press your nose to the glass? I reckon not! You'll sit back many centimetres from a 'realistic' head position relative to the gunsight, cockpit struts etc. If the Zoomed size is most realistic you will end up so close to your monitors that you can't focus! Cool idea though.

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 01:47 PM
Neat setup Dex. Looking at your shots, I think that with your rig I'd prefer to use the zoomed in view. Although I'm sure that you are used to it, your wings are pointing almost straight ahead in wide view.
I see that you've got TrackIR, how does that feel with zoom view? It should be the most realistic if the sight gauges etc are approx RL size, but is it possible to get a good all round situational awareness that way?

Cheers, from my one monitor *sigh*.

<CENTER>


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'The problem with the world is that everyone is a couple of drinks behind' - Humphrey Bogart

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 02:28 PM
Dex, your computer is a mess.

Time to call O'Sullivan

<img src=http://www.id-furniture.com/marketing/images/specsheets/10342.jpg>

Then you can put the 2 monitors where they belong (and not have to look at wings pointed inward)

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"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 06:05 PM
I believe its been guessed at that the Revi in Il-2/FB is 60mm wide, and many of the Soviet aircraft gunsights should also be of a similar size. I don't have a piece of paper to prove this, I'm just parroting what others have surmised.