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Tully__
10-31-2005, 10:06 PM
Many are having problems with the flight model changes introduced in v4.02, so I'm putting some thoughts down that may help. I'll be addressing them first by effect then by stages of flight, so if you're looking for landing go straight to the bottom http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Prop wash:</span>
We're all familiar with this one, though it's commonly wrongly referred to as torque. This is the effect that causes large amounts of yaw during takeoff. It's caused by the rotating column of air moving backwards behind the propeller. When this column reaches the vertical stabiliser it pushes it to the side, turning the nose of the aircraft in the other direction. The pilot should use rudder to control it during takeoff. In real aircraft there is often a "Takeoff" setting for rudder trim that mostly compensates for it. You can work out this setting for your favorite aircraft and use it in the game too if your ride is equipped with pilot adjustable rudder trim.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">P-factor:</span>
This is little understood by those not familiar with the intricacies of aerodynamics. It is caused by the propeller disc not being & right angles to the direction of travel. It is most obvious at high speed and high angles, so it's biggest effect will be observed on taildragger aircraft in the takeoff roll just before the tail lifts, as this is when the propeller is at it's greatest angle from optimum and some speed has built up. On an aircraft that has positive angle of attack, the propeller blades going down have a much greater effective pitch angle (angle of attack) than the blades going up and the result is more thrust on one side than the other until the aircraft returns to neutral angle of attack. This effect will cause the aircraft nose to tend to swing in the same direction as prop wash and should be countered in the same way.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Torque:</span>
As the engine turns the propeller in one direction it tries to turn the airframe the other way. In real life sudden large throttle movements can make wingtips touch the ground in very powerful piston engine propeller aircraft, but in the game we don't have to worry too much until our wheels are off the ground.
Once we're wheels up torque try to make a wing dip. At low speeds pilots should avoid large aileron inputs to counter this, as the dipping wing already has an effective increase in angle of attack which puts it perilously close to stall. Aileron input will only make this worse and may well initiate an ugly low speed, low altitude stall if you're just wheels up or on final approach. At speeds close to stall speed some rudder input opposite the dipped wing will quite effectively bring things back in line.
Some aircraft are designed with one wing at a slightly greater angle of attack to provide more lift on the "dip" side, thus allowing the aircraft to fly with neutral aileron trim at cruise power. On those aircraft you'll find that one wing dips at low power settings and the other wing dips at high power.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Gyroscopic effect:</span>
This is an odd one to get your head around, though if you've played with the toy gyroscopes that science teachers love you may be familiar with it. When you apply a turning force to the axis of a rotating mass, it responds by trying to turn at right angles to the direction of the force. The greater the force or the more suddenly you apply it, the more strongly the rotating mass tries to turn at right angles. The direction of the response will be left or right handed depending on the direction of rotation. The propellers of our aircraft are very large rotating masses.
What this means for us pilots in single engine (and some twins) is sudden pitch inputs are going to induce some unwanted yaw and sudden yaw inputs are going to result in unwanted pitch. Countering this requires several strategies.
1. Be gentle with pitch & yaw inputs
2. Learn which way your aircraft jumps and anticipate it with small amounts of countering input.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Adverse Yaw:</span>
When you apply aileron input to initiate a turn, you cause the rising wing to generate more lift and the other wing less lift. As more lift creates more drag, the wing on the "up" side is now trying to drag the nose away from the turn. This reduces turn efficiency and increases overall drag, increasing the energy loss associated with turning. A small dab of rudder in the direction of the turn is all that's required. Once the turn is established and you've eased off on the ailerons you should find that the rudder can be returned almost to centre.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Practical Considerations in Flight:
--------------------------------

Takeoff</span>

Initially the aircraft is stopped and the undercarriage is mostly controlling roll and pitch, so the big factor is prop wash. This needs a big slab of rudder input to counter, but the rudder is not effective until there is air flowing over it. Start with brakes applied and run the throttle up. As engine power increases, so will the tendency to yaw, but the propeller is also causing air to flow over the rudder. Add rudder as necessary to control the swing. Having the brakes applied will help if you're finding it difficult, as the rudder also controls side to side brake balance and until you release the brakes this will give you brake assisted steering.
Many pilots also find that locking the tail wheel helps.

There are many different recommendations for the first part of the takeoff roll. Some find that it's best to run the throttle up slowly while holding the brakes; others find they can more easily control things if they go straight to full power. It will vary a bit with aircraft type, so experiment some and see what works best for you.

Upon releasing the brakes the aircraft will start to accelerate down the runway. In tail draggers you may find the tendency to yaw increases some as P-factor increases, then drops off quite a bit when the tail comes up. Conversely, you may find that the increasing speed reduces the need for rudder as the vertical stabiliser becomes more effective at higher speed.
A further complication in taildraggers when the tail comes up is gyro forces. If you allow the tail to come up suddenly you'll get a big gyroscopically induced yaw. You'll need to be ready to adjust the rudder to counter this. You may also find it helps to start the takeoff roll with the stick well forward and ease it back as the tail comes off the ground to control the rate of change of pitch.

The next point of difficulty comes when the wheels leave the ground. At this point the landing gear ceases to be of any assistance in controlling torque induced roll and in many aircraft you'll find that a wing wants to drop. If you're not much over stall speed, adding aileron is likely to put that wing over critical angle of attack and cause it to stall. Instead, use rudder to drag the nose to the high side wing. This will slightly lower lift on the high side and bring the aircraft back to level. Don't overdo it though or you'll have the other wing dropping.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Climb</span>

With any luck you'll now be off the ground and in a gentle climb. Keep the climb gentle for a few seconds so that your aircraft will accelerate to best climb speed quicker. Get the gear raised ASAP and once you've got a bit of airspeed remember to retract flaps if you were using them.

If you try to keep your nose pointed at an aircraft taking off ahead of you, you'll almost certainly not be able to keep up. If he's pulling away and you need to make formation with him, let the nose fall back to level and get some more speed. Distance is usually harder to recover than height when trying to form up, so worry about matching altitude after you've caught up.

A word here on climb. If you want to convert level flight to climb at the same speed, you must add power. If you don't add power and just pull back on the stick, at best you'll climb at a much lower speed. If your cruise speed is not very fast to begin with and you don't add power, you may even end up descending after only a few seconds.
Also be aware of your aircraft's various climb speeds. Best climb speed is the speed at which the aircraft gains altitude quickest. This is NOT best climb angle, which will occur at a somewhat lower speed. Best climb angle is good for getting over high objects without taking a detour (for example a line of trees at the end of the runway), but what you gain in angle you lose in time to altitude.

Once you've selected climb power and adjusted the aircraft pitch angle so that you're climbing at your required rate, trim. Trim the elevator first so that you don't have to pull or push on the stick to maintain chosen climb speed. If the aircraft is equipped with rudder trim, trim rudder so that the slip indicator is centered. If you don't know what the slip indicator looks like in your favourite ride, or where to find it, check the cockpit reference guide kindly compiled by neural_dream. It can be found by clicking here (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#001).
Finally, if your aircraft is equipped trim ailerons to cancel torque induced roll. This must be done last as a badly trimmed rudder will also cause some roll. If you trim aileron before rudder, you're going to have to come back and re-trim aileron after you've finished with rudder.

Bear in mind that engine efficiency (and hence torque) changes with altitude, so if you're climbing or descending the torque will be slowly changing much of the time. You'll periodically find you need to re-trim for torque in a long climb or descent even if you haven't changed throttle settings.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Cruise</span>

Not too different to climb. Most aircraft that aren't equipped with in flight trim adjustments have a cruise speed at which the aircraft is neutrally trimmed in rudder and aileron. If you're a fan of long missions you'll find them much more relaxing if you can cruise at this speed, so do a bit of experimenting and find where it is. On most such aircraft it occurs between 35% and 65% throttle. As aileron trim is subject a bit to altitude you may find the neutral trim cruise speed varies a little with altitude too.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Manouvering</span>

The time will come for combat. I wont go into tactics here as they vary so much depending on what you're flying and what your opponent(s) are flying, but there are a few considerations that have arisen in the last patch or two.
In a turn fight you'll find you tend to be fairly slow and using high angles of attack that rapidly vary. You'll find that sudden changes in pitch are causing the nose to bob sideways a bit (gyroscopic effect), sudden roll inputs are causing yaw (adverse yaw) and that poor rudder coordination (slip angle) or sudden power changes (torque roll) are causing wings to drop away. All of these effects will require you to be active but gentle with the rudder. Until you get the hang of it you may find you're overcontrolling some, but with practice you can adapt. It may also help to play with your rudder sensitivity settings a bit. While the in game Input setup is good for this, I prefer FoolTrottel's IL2Sticks Utility (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#087) as it allows you to quickly swap previously saved profiles (requires game exit/re-launch) for quick comparison. IL2 Manager also has a stick sensitivity tool built into it.
You'll also find that adjusting trim for the low speed range keeps your joystick nearer center. This is usually helpful in managing fine control inputs such as aiming.

For the boom and zoom crowd sudden changes of direction and power are not so much of an issue, but they tend to operate over a large speed range. Shots will tend to be taken at fairly high speed, followed by a sudden change in direction before extending to set up for the next pass (if necessary http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Because of the variation in speed and the difficulty of aiming when the joystick is far from center, it may prove useful to trim the aircraft for a much higher speed and power setting than combat cruise when you're in the patrol area but not engaged. While this means you're going to be constantly holding the stick & rudder off centre while on station, it can make accurate shooting much easier at the very high speeds involved in this tactic and may make that second pass not necessary. It will also mean that your controls are in their best response range should your target take evasive action at the last moment requiring some sudden hoiking around to keep the sights on him.

Should you be one of those flyers that has a very versatile flight style, you're going to need to be very active on the rudder. While rudder is not very significant as primary input, with the current flight modeling in this sim it essential for fine tuning the aircraft to manage all the side effects of the forces we have to deal with as pilots of high powered propeller aircraft.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Descent</span>

Really just climb procedure in reverse. Set power low, trim for your chosen descent speed and keep an eye on aileron trim (if available) as altitude decreases.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Landing</span>

Landing is commonly referred to as the most challenging part of routine flying and for good reason. A landing is very close to being a crash, particularly when landing on an aircraft carrier. The idea is to fly a gentle approach slope at a low enough rate of descent that the landing gear doesn't break when it hits the ground, then just before you touch down reduce speed and power and increase angle of attack so that the aircraft stalls and stops flying just as the wheels touch down. Very few sim flyers I've seen online do it right (including me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) with most of them opting for a somewhat higher landing speed and flying onto the runway, hoping they don't bounce high enough to cause a crash (and in a tail dragger you WILL bounce if you touch down too fast).
Because of the very low speeds involved larger control inputs are required to make small corrections. There is a strong tendency to overcontrol when initial control response is less than expected. Further, at the power settings normally used for landing fairly small changes in throttle setting mean large percentage changes in torque and consequently large roll responses from the aircraft. Again there is a strong tendency to overcontrol when reacting to these forces, particularly as they're somewhat stronger in v4.02 than we've had in previous versions.

In this version it is more important than ever to set up your landing approach with correct altitude and speed. The better your set up, the less control input you need to apply during the approach and the easier it is to get on the ground smoothly and gracefully.

Similarly, it's more important than in any previous version to understand proper throttle and pitch control during landing. Contrary to intuition, we use throttle to control glide angle and pitch angle to control speed. If you're going to land short of the runway you need to add power to flatten the glide. If you're going to overshoot, you need to reduce power to make the glide steeper. When you're too fast you need to raise the nose of the aircraft a bit and when you're too slow you need to lower it.

At least to begin with, start your landing approach well out from the end of the runway. Try to get about about 12 to 1 glide slope set up (approximately one runway length for every 100m/300ft above runway altitude) and get your speed down early. Lower flaps and let the aircraft settle in, then trim for approach speed. If Rudder and Aileron trim are available, set them up for a power setting lower than required to maintain the glide slope to minimise the correction required when you pull power off at touch down. Don't forget to lower landing gear.

As you approach the runway, watch the near end of the runway in your windscreen. If it's moving up your screen, you're descending too quickly and will need a touch more power. If it's moving down, you're going to overshoot and will need to reduce power. After making power adjustments your speed will want to vary a little, but it should settle back down to your selected approach speed in a few seconds as the glide slope adjusts.

Keep an eye on your speed too. You'll want to be approaching stall speed in the last stages of the approach. If you've got to wash off too much speed in the flare the aircraft will not want to settle on the runway. While not that critical on the big land based runways, this will result in missing the wire or missing the whole deck on a carrier. You don't want to be washing off more than 5-10mph (8-16km/h) in the final flare and touch down.
Because you're flying so slowly you need to be very careful with the controls. When you're this close to stall, any large rudder, or aileron movement is likely to make one wing stall. You'll need a fair chunk of control input to get responses, but even the slightest amount of overcontrol will cause disaster.
Similarly, large changes in power at this speed are going to cause big roll and yaw responses. Be careful correcting these and as far as possible use mainly rudder to control them. Again, overcorrecting is as bad as or worse than undercorrecting.

Just before touch down pull the nose back and ease the power off. This should be time so that the wheels touch the ground just as the aircraft stalls. The pull back and throttle down needs to be smooth, not sudden or our gyroscopic forces and torque are going to bite us. If you pull back too suddenly the aircraft will yaw, almost certainly causing one wing to stall at this low speed. Even pulling back gently you may need a touch of rudder to keep the nose straight.
Likewise with throttle, if you yank the power off you'll find wing wants to drop. A smidgeon of rudder and a smooth reduction in power will generally keep the wings level, though you may also need the slightest touch of aileron in some aircraft.

If you're in a tail dragger and you've done it right, you'll achieve a three point landing. For tricycle landing gear aircraft, the main wheels should touch first. In either configuration, if you get the landing attitude right and you're too fast the aircraft will float above the runway or even climb. If you've not pulled the nose up far enough and you're too fast you'll touch down but bounce. If you're too slow or too early you'll stall before touch down and either bounce or break something.

If you do bounce on a land airfield, don't push the stick forward. Ease a touch of power back in (very carefully and not much) to prevent the aircraft stalling before the second touch and maintain a slightly nose high attitude. Unless you've really made a botch of things in a major way, this should allow the aircraft to settle moderately gently back onto the runway.
If you bounce on a carrier you'll either miss the wires or if you catch a wire you're likely to break your landing gear on the second touch, so do your best not to bounce too much on a carrier landing. If you're going a bit fast or slow and you're not too badly damaged on a carrier approach, go around and start over. Make your decision to abort early, particularly if you're too slow.

Once the wheels are on the ground, forget the ailerons even exist. Keep the stick back and gently dab at the brakes to bring the speed down. If your landing has been a bit rough and the aircraft is rocking around, use rudder to bring it back into line. Remember that left/right brake balance is linked to rudder and try not to get too enthusiastic with the rudder while the brakes are applied http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">Summary</span>

We've got a lot of new reactions to be aware of in v4.02, but with not much practice they can all be mastered. Some of us have also had issues with corrupted patch downloads or messed up stick sensitivities, and short of the approaches posted elsewhere there's not much can be done about that, but hopefully this post will help those that are simply having difficulty coming to terms with the increased gyro and torque effects and understand better what's going on.

<span class="ev_code_red">Some important points:</span>

Torque and propwash are not the same thing and require different countering techniques. Even if you don't remember the names right, you will find it to your advantage to learn how to deal with each one.

Gyroscopic effects are much greater than they've been in any previous version. They will take some getting used to and may require you to adjust your control technique or stick sensitivity settings.

Learn your aircraft!! Knowing stall speed and aircraft response with and without flaps deployed and with and without a full fuel/ordnance load is much more important than previously. With the importance of these effects so much increased, there is a lot less room for fudge factor than previously. I used to find it easy to land or takeoff in situations that would be suicidal in real life, but no more.

Correct technique is much more critical than in previous versions. I'm finding this by far the most challenging flight model of any version right back to the original IL2 Sturmovik, but loving the renewed challenge so much that I've increased my offline flying just for the practice.

If I've made any errors or not been clear enough on any aspect, feel free to add to or correct my offering. If you don't find it useful, feel free to ignore it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

hobnail
10-31-2005, 10:50 PM
d@mn sensible advice Tully, well worth the read.

Could you express your post in the form of some sort of graph or table? some people feel naked without their slide rule.

VF-51-Dart
10-31-2005, 11:29 PM
Great post Tully

Udidtoo
10-31-2005, 11:35 PM
Thanks Tully. This should be a must read for new comers to flight simms.

FoolTrottel
10-31-2005, 11:36 PM
Yes!

Nice to have this explained in the way you did. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
This makes it very clear what's happening when ... and why ...

I got it bookmarked as 'Tully's guide on Flying 4.02'

(Though there's one thing I'm missing: Landing approach trick for the impatient pilot, to loose speed: the side slip ... it works!)

Have Fun!

JG52_Helgstrand
11-01-2005, 12:45 AM
Thanx for posting this Tully!!

Where was this 2 yrs ago?...LOL

FlatSpinMan
11-01-2005, 01:02 AM
You really should be a teacher Tully. The patient, deliberate way you explain things would work so well in the classroom. I don't know what you do in real life but on this forum your posts are alwasy required reading.
Thanks for consistently being intelligent and reasonable.

==========================

EJGrOst_Caspar
11-01-2005, 01:10 AM
Worth a sticky, IMHO! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Tully__
11-01-2005, 01:25 AM
@Helgstrand: Two years ago some of this didn't apply

@EJGrOst_Caspar: I'm kind of reluctant to sticky my own threads except where it directly relates to my moderating duties especially with such a crowd of stickies up there already, however if there are enough requests I'll see if I can make some space at the top of the forum.

@Everyone else: Thanks. It's aimed at those having difficulties with the newly increased effects and newcomers to the series. My only regret is that these new effects in part make the sim less accessible to the casual gamer as a lot of what I've suggested requires a at least a 4 axis controller. Anyone trying to follow the above advice without axis rudder and throttle control is going to find they don't have fine enough control with only keyboard http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

OMK_Hand
11-01-2005, 02:03 AM
The bar has been raised http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
I'm kind of reluctant to sticky my own threads...

Sticky this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Great read for everyone, whether experienced or not.

x6BL_Brando
11-01-2005, 02:22 AM
Thanks Tully, for compiling a sensible answer to all the hysteria generated by the new FM.

Please, please break your rule, don't be modest, let's have this piece of work stickied!
I would hate to see this guide buried under the mass of negative reactions to 4.02 and disappear from sight. It should be in the manual, but stickied will have to do.

First class m8 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif thank you,

Brando.

lowfighter
11-01-2005, 02:56 AM
Thank you very much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
A sticky because this things are quite tricky http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tully__
11-01-2005, 03:11 AM
I relent...

sparty7200
11-01-2005, 03:59 AM
TOP MAN http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jds1978
11-01-2005, 04:22 AM
sweet job, Tully http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Windchilly
11-01-2005, 04:58 AM
Tully,

My CFI didn't explain these as well as you did! Are you a CFI by chance? If not - might want to consider it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Keep smilin'

Windchilly

Bearcat99
11-01-2005, 06:53 AM
Tully... this is why.... you are The MAN... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Sorry man... I had too.... I just couldnt resist.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

neural_dream
11-01-2005, 07:30 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Exactly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif what http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif i http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif needed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

VT-51_Razor
11-01-2005, 08:16 AM
As a flight instructor in RL, I applaud you Tully, that was an excellent explanation. I just wish I were that articulate! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Pig_Mac
11-01-2005, 08:20 AM
When you're too fast you need to raise the nose of the aircraft a bit and when you're too fast you need to lower it.


too fast on both occations? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
A little error in the last line. Since it prolly gets stickied or put in as a guide, i just thought i'd point it out.

Banger2004
11-01-2005, 10:33 AM
Excellent stuff. Been flying this sim for a year now, still got lots to learn!!

Thanks very much.

darkhorizon11
11-01-2005, 11:09 AM
Thanks Tully I think its funny that people argue about and try to interpret advanced performance charts on here and can't explain those basic aerodynamic prinicipals...

Also you should probably add ground effect too.

petrol1
11-01-2005, 11:41 AM
I think this flight model is about as real as it gets,i have done a little flying but ,most of all spannering.This flight model causes a few people hardships,but as in all things worth doing ,it takes time.Can i take this oppertunity to say a big thanks from me for making this game...I love it

dieg777
11-01-2005, 12:05 PM
Excellent Tully http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

jakeand
11-01-2005, 01:39 PM
Tully! Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

regards

jake

Tully__
11-01-2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Xallo_72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When you're too fast you need to raise the nose of the aircraft a bit and when you're too fast you need to lower it.


too fast on both occations? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
A little error in the last line. Since it prolly gets stickied or put in as a guide, i just thought i'd point it out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, fixed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

msalama
11-01-2005, 01:58 PM
Tully,

Thanks for this excellent article. I'm sure many of us will benefit greatly from it...

Vengeanze
11-01-2005, 02:06 PM
I didn't understand a thing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Tully, u got too much free-time...thank god. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

clayman_52
11-01-2005, 08:11 PM
Outstanding Tully!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BlueTick_336th
11-01-2005, 09:03 PM
Much thanks Tully for your most informative explanations of what's happening to my ride these days! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I do as you, use Fool_Trottel's IL-2 stick sensitivity tool. I'm having a bit [lot] of troubles setting it up as far as axis and trim imput sliders go.
I was just wondering if you could let the masses in on just what settings you use on all axis and especially the settings for trims including dead band & filtering.(I find them all too sensitive on even the lowest of settings for some reason)
Who knows you may have a manual for this utility as well! lol
Thanks in advance
~S~! Tick

Tully__
11-01-2005, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Tully... this is why.... you are The MAN... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Sorry man... I had too.... I just couldnt resist.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif You know it's taken me ten hours (I was asleep the other 8) to work out just what you meant by that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I may even leave it like that for a while http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Flying_Nutcase
11-02-2005, 01:24 AM
Tully, thx for such a well thought out piece of work. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Manos1
11-02-2005, 01:36 AM
WOW! Thanks!

SeaFireLIV
11-02-2005, 04:42 AM
wow, tully. Intense stuff and very good. Are you sure Oleg wasn`t cooperating with you in this? This ought to be part of an FB manual. Printing.

lowfighter
11-02-2005, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:



<span class="ev_code_yellow">Prop wash:</span>
....

<span class="ev_code_yellow">P-factor:</span>
....

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Torque:</span>
.....

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Gyroscopic effect:</span>
....
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Adverse Yaw:</span>
.....

[color:yellow]Practical Considerations in Flight:
--------------------------------



Tully perhaps you can add at the bottom of each effect you described a couple of airplanes which are affected more?

Buzzsaw-
11-02-2005, 09:22 AM
Salute Tully

Great stuff, I'd reccommend it to all new pilots as well as those who admit they can still learn a few things... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Woof603
11-02-2005, 02:43 PM
Very cool work, Tully. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Bernoulli
11-02-2005, 05:12 PM
Good post Tully. With the addition of the new FM features it's clear this was needed. What we need to do still is further explain the significance of these effects. Better yet we need some training tracks/missions to be included in the game that demonstrate the technique of aileron to rudder coordination, the way a pilot cancels the gyroscopic effects of the propeller, stalls, spins, all that. Sort of like primary flight training.

Bernie

danjama
11-02-2005, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:



<span class="ev_code_yellow">Prop wash:</span>
....

<span class="ev_code_yellow">P-factor:</span>
....

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Torque:</span>
.....

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Gyroscopic effect:</span>
....
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Adverse Yaw:</span>
.....

[color:yellow]Practical Considerations in Flight:
--------------------------------



Tully perhaps you can add at the bottom of each effect you described a couple of airplanes which are affected more? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all i applaud you Tully, although i was reluctant to read so much, i did eventually and althugh i knew much of it its lways interesting to read it and reenforce it in the mind. Absolutely great work mate. Second, what i have quoted is a nice idea IMO. For example, the adverse yawing you could mention P51's or whatever. Great work again.

Fliegeroffizier
11-03-2005, 11:35 AM
Excellent...best explanations I've seen, and as concisely put as is possible. Thanks Tully.

Oleg/UBI definitely should be planning to include instructions such as these in the BofB Manual, the Hard copy one in the Box. They should have a staff working on a Complete Manual right now...something thrown together at the last minute merely explaining a few default keyboard settings will not do the trick.

If the flight Model for BofB is going to be as cutting-edge realistic as we have been lead to believe, Oleg had best take major steps to "TEACH" his customers How to Flyusing detailed manual(s) and instructions AND carefully prepared TRAINING flights/missions. It is also quite feasible to produce short videos demonstrating various techniques, etc...Some already exist produced by Community members such as BA_Dart, but Oleg should have a team producing specific Training videos, Missions, Trk's, etc, in a Very Organized effort Specifically addressing the unique aspects/characteristics of the Limited number of BofB aircraft types.

If he wants to maintain or expand his Market, he'll need to avoid putting on the street a product that will be Terminally-and-Immediately-Frustrating to newcomers to the serious world of flight simming.

SOMEbody at UBI/1C certainly Must understand the logic of this... We all want to see a success with BofB and an expanding FLight Sim community.... This can be achieved if Oleg/UBI plan ahead, rather than waiting to react to the 'complaining'newbies(and others more experienced, I am sure) spreading the negativities of "This product is ****, the controls dont work, its full of glitches and bugs, etc, etc, etc..." when they simply don't Know How To Fly.
imho

Tallyho1961
11-03-2005, 12:38 PM
Superb advice, superb writing.

I printed out Tully's post, read it through a couple of times, and have been practising landings in various aircraft in a QMB I set up for this purpose.

I should mention that my IL2 journey inspired me to read several instructional books on flight and flying light aircraft, and to take a couple of introductory flights, so I'm not unfamiliar with the theory behind the effects he so well describes, just really, really, really light in real world practice.

What I'm beginning to realize is that 4.02 is a real step forward in terms of simulating actual flight responses in a powerful piston-engined aircraft - which in my book is a good thing - and if it does require further understanding of aircraft behaviour and pratice to master, then so be it.

So far, I've tested a few favourite planes: Wildcat, Warhawk, Hurricane, I-16 and P-63 and am beginning to get the hang of it.

I've found that all landings are more challenging than before. I've managed to get down decently in some cases - with a crash or two that wouldn't have happened in 4.01. In others, notably the P-63, it's a whole new ball game. In fact, I would recommend the P-63 for pratice because it's so difficult, and because it's got a slip indicator mounted right under the gunsight where you can easily keep an eye on it.

But with a hard copy of Tully's post next to me, and a few pauses to review the appropriate passages when required, it's clear that 4.02 makes sense - it just makes it harder to do certain things well.

4.01 caused me to add rudder pedals to my rig, which I'm thankful for because I don't know how I would even begin to master this FM if I was still using my X45 rocker, or worse, keys.

Amyway, there's more practice ahead, especially in the rudder input area where I am a bit twitchy at the moment, but I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks, Tully - great post!

UPDATE:

Just completed three very nice circuits in the P-63 and things are definitely looking up. With more attention paid to rudder and the effect of throttle input, I've regained control of this aircraft. And it's fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The post above makes a good point in terms of instruction: a realistic FM like this one needs solid reference material and, I would say, narrated training tracks to help simmers who aren't familiar with flight dynamics.

HotelBushranger
11-05-2005, 07:54 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif What do you do instead? Bash the traniees with a stick? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tallyho1961
11-05-2005, 08:25 PM
A wet noodle gives better results.

martian04
11-06-2005, 05:39 AM
Great post, after problems with patching etc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif and having the very bad wobble effect, i have been a little concerned that even though better it is still a bit OTT. After reading tully's post i fired up game and tried a few tests. My conclusion is there is nothing wrong, its just a bit of a shock going from AEP to PF then patches all at once!
I could not understand my take off sway wobble etc, problems firing weapons accurately and generally keeping the plane flying straight which was easy before.
I tried this during play..

Take off
More cautious with power tap brakes use rudder some planes need a lot of rudder others very little [ eg/ Before patches i didn't need any!]
Prop wash very noticable and if i bang the power up to fast the torque causes plane to veer off to the left. Reducing power again and it settles.
If I need to take off in a hurry its a case of full power full rudder and tap the brakes while trying to keep plane reasonable straight not easy [for me ] but getting used to it.

Inflight
Before patches i think it must have had auto pilot as i didn't have to do a lot except steer.
Now i find without trim [new to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif] and flying at full throttle the plane keeps veering to the left almost putting plane into a roll.
After reading Tully's post i tested this and found its torque causing it..reduce power and the veer to left reduces!Trim as i adjust power and http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Weapons

This has been the most frustrating for me..Line up try and keep plane stable..here comes is an easy kill [before] and fire..Woorrr hell the nose is jumping all over the place shooting the sky up! I have had to use my machine guns more than cannons if i hope to hit anything, if i manage a disabling hit then its cannons to finish.
For me the whole game experience has changed and i must admit i have been frustrated as hell with it, chucked gear stick keyboard cups turned pc off in a huff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif done the lot..But now i am starting to love the game again probably more so than before and helped a lot by this excellent thread
Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

x6BL_Brando
11-06-2005, 06:23 AM
I don't disagree with the need for people to 'learn to fly' in order to participate in what's becoming a tricky sim to master - but surely that's one of the factors that a large proportion of the mob is always baying for? So a more challenging flight-model comes out of it - and now Oleg's team is supposed to make it all better?

Have you considered the cost involved in writing this proposed "detailed manual(s) and instructions AND carefully prepared TRAINING flights/missions." How much do flying training & lessons cost in the real world? And how much are we prepared to pay for our next CD full of IC-magic? Two, three hundred dollars? I don't think so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I also understand the possible cost of NOT providing some more detailed help......but I do think some major part of the experience would be lost if we were so cosseted. Most of the information is out on the web or right here on these forums - if you can spot it for the mass of flak that surrounds the whole issue.

Besides - if we DID have all this built-in training manual - we would lose out on such excellent contributions to this community such as the one Tully has just made.

All that said, I'd be delighted if Oleg was to include "...some hints and tips" ....properly accredited to "The Man", in his up-coming sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif




Oleg had best take major steps to "TEACH" his customers How to Flyusing detailed manual(s) and instructions AND carefully prepared TRAINING flights/missions. It is also quite feasible to produce short videos demonstrating various techniques, etc...Some already exist produced by Community members such as BA_Dart, but Oleg should have a team producing specific Training videos, Missions, Trk's, etc, in a Very Organized effort Specifically addressing the unique aspects/characteristics of the Limited number of BofB aircraft types.

Tallyho1961
11-06-2005, 06:57 AM
Hi Brando,

I agree that Maddox can't go overboard and, like you suggest, the training material probably already exists via community contributions and just needs to be pulled together, edited, carefully proofed and illustrated.

In terms of training missions, I recently spent some time learning LOMAC which has a few really nice narrated 'how-to-fly' missions. Obviously in the IL2 context you couldn't do one for every plane, but a handful of representative types ought to do the trick in terms of getting the principles across.

As a total non-pilot it took me a lot of work before I started to understand flight dynamics - which meant I wasn't just yanking the stick around and playing with the throttle, not to mention the fact that I'd never even heard of trim - and IMO it's when people understand basic concepts of flight that they can best appreciate Oleg's work and are in a better position to evaluate FM changes.

If I was developing a super-realistic flight sim I would want to offer solid basic training just to save myself the aggravation of dealing with complaints based on a lack of knowledge.

I don't know what the unit cost for an IL2-type product is, but I say a couple of extra couple bucks thrown in for good training materials is a wise investment. If that adds five bucks to the retail price, so be it.

Clouds1962
11-08-2005, 02:36 AM
Hi Tully.
I've a question to you.
Really I don't understand the Prop wash.
Usually I always have thought everyting is ruled by Newton's laws and so also air is, I mean the air is pushed back by the propeller but when it leaves the propeller, it goes stright back and not rotating like you said, so it is a little difficult for me to think about an air mass that is ROTATING by itself around the airplane fuselage and hits the vertical stabilizer.
I've seen some old movies of Corsairs rolling on a carrier for a takeoff and effectively each propeller tip was emitting a rotating contrail but the screw fashion of the contrail I thought it was due to the slow forward movement of the airplane and something localized just at the propeller tip.

I thought the airflow comes from the front of the plane stright back to plane tail and not rotating around its fuselage. This is why I don't understand the prop wash.

What could you tell me about this ?
What's wrong in my opinion ?

Thanks
Best regards

Clouds

Tully__
11-08-2005, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Clouds1962:
...I thought the airflow comes from the front of the plane stright back to plane tail and not rotating around its fuselage...
It does rotate, though not as tightly as the spiral contrails you see in those photographs. If you need confirmation, tie a long narrow ribbon to the protective cage on a household fan about half way out from the centre of the fan. The ribbon will twist in a spiral with the airflow.

The rotating airflow results from the angle of attack of the propeller blades. The force exerted by the propeller on the air is at right angles to the blade surface due to pressure and in the direction of motion of the blades due to drag. Both of these forces include a component tangential to the propellor axis of rotation which causes the air to rotate about that axis. The equal and opposite force is the torque reaction that tries to roll the aircraft the other way.

If the rudder extended equally above and below the aircraft, the resulting yaw force wouldn't exist as the force underneath the fuselage would be in the opposite direction, but there would still be a torque about the fuselage trying to roll the aircraft. This torque also exist as a result of the same stream of rotating air striking the wing roots and horizontal stabiliser and it goes part way to cancelling the engine torque trying to roll the aircraft.

Kosmos_04
11-08-2005, 02:18 PM
Tully,
Thanks for the FM info, great work!
What joystick input settings would you suggest for 4.02?
What do you use?

Cheers.

Tully__
11-08-2005, 02:50 PM
I've used:

Saitek Cyborg Digital 3D
Gravis (don't recall the model)
Thrustmaster Topgun Afterburner II
Saitek X-45
Saitek X-52
Saitek Cyborg Evo

With all of them the settings I use vary between the following two extremes:

Roll: 13 21 28 39 53 65 77 88 96 100
Pitch: 22 28 37 45 54 65 77 88 97 100
Yaw: 35 41 48 56 67 76 82 89 95 100

Roll: 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
Pitch: 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
Yaw: 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100

Exact settings will depend on your stick, your primary ride, your preferred tactics and your personal preference. If you'd like to take my advice, get FoolTrottel's lovely little utility (link in my sig) and experiment!! The only golden rule I'd suggest is don't have a gap too large between adjacent sliders, it causes unpredictable jumps in sensitivity at some part of the range of movement in your controller.

Kosmos_04
11-08-2005, 04:00 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Thanks!

TX-Gunslinger
11-09-2005, 04:09 PM
Incredibly concise and usefull information.

Thank you Tully.

S~

F19_Ob
11-10-2005, 06:23 AM
Great effort tully. Clear explanations.
Good read for all simmers.
Rating = excellent.

BaldieJr
11-12-2005, 10:57 PM
Ok I read it am I an ace now?

DarkStar68
11-12-2005, 11:17 PM
Yea great job Tully - Oleg should have you write the technical specs for BoB if it ever comes out - or start charging him for the service.

Te_Vigo
11-12-2005, 11:29 PM
"The rotating airflow results from the angle of attack of the propeller blades. The force exerted by the propeller on the air is at right angles to the blade surface due to pressure and in the direction of motion of the blades due to drag. Both of these forces include a component tangential to the propellor axis of rotation which causes the air to rotate about that axis. The equal and opposite force is the torque reaction that tries to roll the aircraft the other way."


True but more............
To drive the propeller, the engine needs to work properly has to push against something.

Revv the motor in your car and you will see a similar effect when the body wants to roll left (RW drive) or wants to lift at the front (FW drive).
The engine block mounted in the plane's frame, makes it basically all one piece, with the crankshaft/ propeller as a separate unit.
So the working propeller/ cranksaft will push against the block/ plane continually. Firewall the throttle and the plane will tip (roll) in the opposite direction to the propeller rotation.

Tully__
11-13-2005, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Te_Vigo:
True but more............
To drive the propeller, the engine needs to work properly has to push against something.

Revv the motor in your car and you will see a similar effect when the body wants to roll left (RW drive) or wants to lift at the front (FW drive).
The engine block mounted in the plane's frame, makes it basically all one piece, with the crankshaft/ propeller as a separate unit.
So the working propeller/ cranksaft will push against the block/ plane continually. Firewall the throttle and the plane will tip (roll) in the opposite direction to the propeller rotation.

True in real life, but this was aimed at the game...

...but in the game we don't have to worry too much until our wheels are off the ground.

Zargo9
11-13-2005, 06:08 AM
Dear Tully:

"If you do bounce on a land airfield, don't push the stick forward. Ease a touch of power back in (very carefully and not much) to prevent the aircraft stalling before the second touch and maintain a slightly nose high attitude. Unless you've really made a botch of things in a major way, this should allow the aircraft to settle moderately gently back onto the runway. If you bounce on a carrier"

That last sentence isn't finished. Can you finish it for those of us who are about to give up being naval aviators and join the Marines so we can only land on runways?

Thanks

Tully__
11-13-2005, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Zargo9:
Dear Tully:

"If you do bounce on a land airfield, don't push the stick forward. Ease a touch of power back in (very carefully and not much) to prevent the aircraft stalling before the second touch and maintain a slightly nose high attitude. Unless you've really made a botch of things in a major way, this should allow the aircraft to settle moderately gently back onto the runway. If you bounce on a carrier"

That last sentence isn't finished. Can you finish it for those of us who are about to give up being naval aviators and join the Marines so we can only land on runways?

Thanks Thank you, small addition added. Basically, don't bounce on carrier landings. It's almost unavoidable actually but you've got to keep it within the limits of the aicraft or you've broken something.

Jim81
11-14-2005, 06:05 PM
i really believe now planes dont fly anymore but they fluctuate in the air...if i had no force feedback and the experience i gained with previous patch would be impossible for me to learn to fly this sim.

Its a real pity lots of people are being disgusted by this patch and leaving the game ;(

apoinssot
11-22-2005, 02:28 PM
Totally agree !

mean_mango
11-23-2005, 01:35 PM
Worthy of Stick & Rudder. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Thanks, Tully!

white12
12-17-2005, 10:48 PM
Tully, no probs with fm, biggest diff I notice is yaw; you actually have to look at the sai now and trim on many ac. I do have one question though. It states in the readme the ai ac have same fm. Does that mean the 109 has the same fm as my 47? The reason I ask is I just followed a 109 (that I had blasted good with several bursts)into a dive of some 880 KMH at which point he could pull out like his elevators were a pair of barn doors! Not to mention I gained little or nothing on him in the dive. WTF? AND, my wing is still ******ed. I checked my six before going after the 109; all clear, got #2 behind me. When I get downstairs I've got company with 2 right behind him! What does he do? Roll a joint I guess, while I'm fired on he just sits back there taking notes. Arghh! I suppose this why so many of you fly on line w/ friends.

Tully__
12-17-2005, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by white12:
Tully, no probs with fm, biggest diff I notice is yaw; you actually have to look at the sai now and trim on many ac. I do have one question though. It states in the readme the ai ac have same fm. Does that mean the 109 has the same fm as my 47? The reason I ask is I just followed a 109 (that I had blasted good with several bursts)into a dive of some 880 KMH at which point he could pull out like his elevators were a pair of barn doors! Not to mention I gained little or nothing on him in the dive. WTF? AND, my wing is still ******ed. I checked my six before going after the 109; all clear, got #2 behind me. When I get downstairs I've got company with 2 right behind him! What does he do? Roll a joint I guess, while I'm fired on he just sits back there taking notes. Arghh! I suppose this why so many of you fly on line w/ friends.

A 109 doesn't have the same FM as a 47, but an AI flying a 47 has the same FM as a human flying a 47.

There are still differences between AI and human flown aircraft, but if you stall pulling a certain manouver in the 47 so will an AI pulling the same manouver under the same conditions.

white12
12-17-2005, 11:18 PM
Thanks Tully, I guess I'm just having growing pains.

blakduk
12-20-2005, 07:35 PM
Well done Tully- concise information logically presented.

BM357_Sniper
01-02-2006, 03:35 PM
The only thing I saw that was probably a typo was about P-Factor. Its most obviously felt when at LOW speeds, High engine power settings and High angles of attack, ie on take off. I believe he said it was high speeds which isn't correct. Not complaining, just pointing it out.

Tully__
01-02-2006, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
The only thing I saw that was probably a typo was about P-Factor. Its most obviously felt when at LOW speeds, High engine power settings and High angles of attack, ie on take off. I believe he said it was high speeds which isn't correct. Not complaining, just pointing it out.
There's no P-Factor when you're at a standstill (unless there's a headwind) as P-Factor is caused by the airflow not hitting the propellor disc squarely. The higher the airspeed, the greater the effect.

It's felt most at low speeds because at high speed you can't maintain a high angle of attack. The greatest effect probably occurs at the speed your horizontal stabiliser starts to lift off the ground when taking off in a taildragger, as this is the greatest combination of AoA and airspeed. Most aircraft in the game this is between 40-90km/h. If it were possible to maintain the 15-20 degree angle of attack of a taildragger taxiing while at flying speeds, the p-factor would be insane.

Edit: Prop pitch is also a factor. At fine pitch, P-Factor is greater than at coarse pitch. When travelling at low speed with a constant speed prop, prop pitch will be fine and consequently p-factor will be greater for a given AoA than if prop pitch were set coarse.

wehyam
01-03-2006, 08:27 AM
Hey ho Tully,
sorry dumb one here.. The 4.02 flight model?
Does this come in a box? which one?

I have Il2, FB , PF and am waiting for AEP to arrive next week. Will I have 4.02 flight model then!
or is part of the patchwork?

Thanks for the useful tips.. But dont you think it odd that the only way to get to 'really' use the game (simulation if you must) is to claw the information out of training manuals or the web(any one got one for the hurricane?), books on how to do it.. eg stick and rudder, Shaw etc. and posts like yours. or simply spend hours and hours waiting for 'reflys' after crash after crash after crashes..until it clicks...
It says a lot about something that people stick with it and eventually manage to 'crack it'. Clearly there's an obsessional nerve being pulled here. Pity it wasn't part of the original game design to give noobies a proper flight training. But in the meantime, when am I going to learn whether fiddling around with the manifold pressure(!) and prop pitch is going to be just what I need to keep up with the big boys.

By the way.. a Hurricane wing span is 40ft, which at 200m should subtend on the screen about 6.5cm (viewing distance 1m) or from about where I'm sitting about 3cm or about
this ........... long on my screen. How come every one in the AI flight team can hit the middle of it (me) almost every time (and from further away)when I cant. Whose flight model are they using? Do they have any reaction time?

msalama
01-03-2006, 08:58 AM
I have Il2, FB , PF and am waiting for AEP to arrive next week. Will I have 4.02 flight model then! or is part of the patchwork?

It's part of the patchwork, downloadable here (http://www.pacific-fighters.com/en/updates.php).

BTW, you should re-install everything as merged (i.e. all add-ons forming one game only) when you get your copy of the AEP, because that gives you the most variety. Oh, and welcome aboard http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Clearly there's an obsessional nerve being pulled here.

Most bloody definitely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Pity it wasn't part of the original game design to give noobies a proper flight training.

You're right, this is one of the worst shortcomings in this sim/game! But hey, just keep on practising and you'll pwn0rz them in no time at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wehyam
01-04-2006, 03:44 AM
Hey ho msalama,
Thanks for the helpful response..
Here's another question, maybe you can answer or direct me.. Does TrackIR introduce a 'significant' lag into the targeting? I noticed in the 'play track' that 1) the Trackir is 'not on', ie the view is just straight ahead, and 2) that my firing was starting well off target, where even by my standards I wasn't aiming it! This is related to my other problem. I have to live with my reaction time (~500ms say) do you know whether the AI pilots suffer the same visual information processing and response timelags that we do?! There's other questions on this theme which interest me. Does the AI have strategy? I've noticed the BF109 enemy AI are (seem to be) playing a stategic exploitation of the 109s speed against me and my hurricane. They are doing it together in twos. One tempting me in but just keeping out of range while the other gets on with swooping into my bowel.. Am I getting paranoid or is this really happening? It looks smart and I see it happening reliably.

msalama
01-04-2006, 05:49 AM
Hi ho let's go as Joey used to sing...


Does TrackIR introduce a 'significant' lag into the targeting?

I don't use TrackIR myself so don't have the farkkiest... Anyone?


It looks smart and I see it happening reliably.

Hmm... AI pilots in this game are _very_ variable as regards their (artificial) intelligence, meaning their behaviour spans from incredible stupidity/weirdness to absolute aceness http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif But what's just coincidence and what's real, well, that's hard to say! Any AI experts around to answer these questions?

Tully__
01-04-2006, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by wehyam:
Hey ho msalama,
Thanks for the helpful response..
Here's another question, maybe you can answer or direct me.. Does TrackIR introduce a 'significant' lag into the targeting? I noticed in the 'play track' that 1) the Trackir is 'not on', ie the view is just straight ahead, and 2) that my firing was starting well off target, where even by my standards I wasn't aiming it! This is related to my other problem. I have to live with my reaction time (~500ms say) do you know whether the AI pilots suffer the same visual information processing and response timelags that we do?! There's other questions on this theme which interest me. Does the AI have strategy? I've noticed the BF109 enemy AI are (seem to be) playing a stategic exploitation of the 109s speed against me and my hurricane. They are doing it together in twos. One tempting me in but just keeping out of range while the other gets on with swooping into my bowel.. Am I getting paranoid or is this really happening? It looks smart and I see it happening reliably.

These sorts of questions would best be answered if you start a new thread, however here's my take.

TrackIR: It sounds like you're not quite sure of what it is. TrackIR is not a part of the game, it's a widget you buy that allows you to use small head movements to control the view with the same flexibility you would have if you use the mouse (and maybe even better control). Rather than add lag, it is more likely to remove lag as you don't have to find time between using other controls to point your view where you want to see. Just move your head a bit and you're looking where you want to see.


AI: They're both very dumb and very smart. Their ability varies quite a bit in various versions of the game and in various aircraft.
The "teamwork" thing is mostly an illusion. The AI flying in the wingman position seem to be programmed to do not much more than follow their leader unless someone is shooting at their leader and hitting him or their leader is engaged in combat and this results in the pair briefly being split up. At times I've flown in behind an AI leader but in front of his wingman and the wingman has done nothing but try to maintain his formation on his leader without running into me (and you can't even rely on that, they're notorious for midair collisions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Other times you get anywhere withing 6 km of them and the whole swarm seem to be shooting at you straight away. The best way to learn about AI behaviour is to do a campaign with vulnerability and limited ammo turned off and fly around in among them watching how the behave in various circumstances.

BM357_Sniper
01-09-2006, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
The only thing I saw that was probably a typo was about P-Factor. Its most obviously felt when at LOW speeds, High engine power settings and High angles of attack, ie on take off. I believe he said it was high speeds which isn't correct. Not complaining, just pointing it out.
There's no P-Factor when you're at a standstill (unless there's a headwind) as P-Factor is caused by the airflow not hitting the propellor disc squarely. The higher the airspeed, the greater the effect.

It's felt most at low speeds because at high speed you can't maintain a high angle of attack. The greatest effect probably occurs at the speed your horizontal stabiliser starts to lift off the ground when taking off in a taildragger, as this is the greatest combination of AoA and airspeed. Most aircraft in the game this is between 40-90km/h. If it were possible to maintain the 15-20 degree angle of attack of a taildragger taxiing while at flying speeds, the p-factor would be insane.

Edit: Prop pitch is also a factor. At fine pitch, P-Factor is greater than at coarse pitch. When travelling at low speed with a constant speed prop, prop pitch will be fine and consequently p-factor will be greater for a given AoA than if prop pitch were set coarse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I misread something or I've just been doing it wrong for years since flight school.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

http://home.earthlink.net/~x-plane/FAQ-Theory-PFactor.html

http://www.coryat.com/faa-pp-written/index09.html

http://www.brown.edu/Students/Brown_Flying_Club/aerodynamics2.ppt#2

triad773
01-09-2006, 08:08 AM
Hey Sniper- thanks for the links. Very helpful to me. Have been flying sims for some time, but this one is different in some ways. Always have flown by the dictates of what ever FM the game had, but never by the book. Was just coming to terms with the right rudder on takeoff and such. P-factor not really covered very much elsewhere.

Cheers-

Triad

Tully__
01-09-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:

Maybe I misread something or I've just been doing it wrong for years since flight school.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

http://home.earthlink.net/~x-plane/FAQ-Theory-PFactor.html

http://www.coryat.com/faa-pp-written/index09.html

http://www.brown.edu/Students/Brown_Flying_Club/aerodynamics2.ppt#2

Nah, you got it right. In real world terms P-factor is experienced most at slow speed as that is when your AoA is high. However for a given AoA P-Factor forces will increase with speed. When a tail dragger is sitting on the tarmac doing pre-flight runup tests there is no P-Factor as the only airflow is in line with the prop axis. As speed increases, the airflow moves in line with the direction of travel and away from the prop axis until the aircraft has sufficient speed for the AoA to start reducing.

As I mentioned in my last post, the most pronounced effects are probably experienced between the tail lifting off the ground (40-90km/h) and stall speed (about 120-150km/h for most a/c in the game). At higher speeds the reduced AoA lowers P-Factor forces more than the increased speed raises them.

BM357_Sniper
01-10-2006, 02:43 PM
I think the easiest way to put it is because of the pitch or angle of the blades on the prop, the decending blade is 'biting' into the air more than the ascending blade. Therefore when the AOA is increased, so is the 'bite' of that particular blade while it is decending.

If the plane was actually moving perfectly straight, as in the direction the nose is pointed, this wouldn't be felt. This isn't the case though. As a plane is climbing, it is also moving forward. Dragging it self would be a good description for the purpose here.

Three things occur during P Factor:

1 The descending blade has more pitch (biting the air more) which causes a yawing tendency

2 Because there is more pitch, there is more thrust on that side, causing a yawing tendency.

3 Spiraling slip stream from the prop makes contact with one side of the aircraft's tail, causing a yawing tendency.

All three cause a yawing tendency to the same side and all three are most felt at slow airspeeds, high power settings and high angle of attack.

All information is available in any flight training documentation. I also spoke with a pilot that stopped logging hours after he hit 25,000. He figured, "whats the point?". lol My father is who that is. I've been flying since I was 16. I'm 34 now.

Good convo though, I've enjoyed it. S~

BM357_Sniper
01-10-2006, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
The only thing I saw that was probably a typo was about P-Factor. Its most obviously felt when at LOW speeds, High engine power settings and High angles of attack, ie on take off. I believe he said it was high speeds which isn't correct. Not complaining, just pointing it out.
There's no P-Factor when you're at a standstill (unless there's a headwind) as P-Factor is caused by the airflow not hitting the propellor disc squarely. The higher the airspeed, the greater the effect.

It's felt most at low speeds because at high speed you can't maintain a high angle of attack. The greatest effect probably occurs at the speed your horizontal stabiliser starts to lift off the ground when taking off in a taildragger, as this is the greatest combination of AoA and airspeed. Most aircraft in the game this is between 40-90km/h. If it were possible to maintain the 15-20 degree angle of attack of a taildragger taxiing while at flying speeds, the p-factor would be insane.

Edit: Prop pitch is also a factor. At fine pitch, P-Factor is greater than at coarse pitch. When travelling at low speed with a constant speed prop, prop pitch will be fine and consequently p-factor will be greater for a given AoA than if prop pitch were set coarse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure where you went to flight school or if you ever had any, but respectfully, I've never heard so much ridiculous theory on P Factor.

I'm not talking about anything during nonflight or sitting at a standstill, there is minimal P Factor effect then. Also, you can go to a very high AOA at slow airspeeds, thats where the high power setting comes in. Never done slow flight maneuvers? It is one of the first things you perform in flight school. It is to simulate a take off and getting yourself into a stall situation where all of the torque effects are most felt and critical.

Slow your aircraft to stall speed and maintain altitude. Apply power continuously to hold altitude. When you achieve slow flight, you will be at a high AOA, high power setting and slow airspeed.

P Factor and all torque effects diminish as airspeed increases. Don't believe me, talk to a flight instructor or look up the info.

Tully__
01-10-2006, 05:09 PM
1 The descending blade has more pitch (biting the air more) which causes a yawing tendency

2 Because there is more pitch, there is more thrust on that side, causing a yawing tendency.

3 Spiraling slip stream from the prop makes contact with one side of the aircraft's tail, causing a yawing tendency.


1 & 2 are the same thing. 3 is prop wash and is a different factor. While it works in the same direction as P-factor on conventional aircraft, it is an unrelated force.

Our differences come from our point of view. P-Factor is felt most at low speed/high AoA/high power. If you could isolate just P-factor and measure it independant of other stabilising forces, the measured force would be greatest at high speed/high AoA/high power.

The pilot feels it less at higher speed because as speed increases, AoA reduces, lowering the P-factor forces in play. If you could maintain a high angle between overall airflow and the propellor disc as speed increased (in practical terms you can't at any speed significantly higher than stall speed) then P-Factor forces would increase with speed.

The long and the short of it is I agree with you!! P-Factor is <span class="ev_code_yellow">felt</span> most at low speed/high power because that is when the combination of power/speed/AoA produces the highest p-factor forces and other flight dynamics (the countering stabilisation from the vertical stabilizer) do the least to minimise how much it's felt.

Nevertheless, if you could contrive a situation where you could maintain thrust line offset at higher speeds P-Factor would increase with speed. In the aircraft we fly we can't maintain that offset, it's linked to AoA and AoA reduces rapidly as speed is gained. In addition the vertical stab does it's job better at higher speeds, further reducing how much the effect is felt by the pilot.

BM357_Sniper
01-10-2006, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1 The descending blade has more pitch (biting the air more) which causes a yawing tendency

2 Because there is more pitch, there is more thrust on that side, causing a yawing tendency.

3 Spiraling slip stream from the prop makes contact with one side of the aircraft's tail, causing a yawing tendency.


1 & 2 are the same thing. 3 is prop wash and is a different factor. While it works in the same direction as P-factor on conventional aircraft, it is an unrelated force.

Our differences come from our point of view. P-Factor is felt most at low speed/high AoA/high power. If you could isolate just P-factor and measure it independant of other stabilising forces, the measured force would be greatest at high speed/high AoA/high power.

The pilot feels it less at higher speed because as speed increases, AoA reduces, lowering the P-factor forces in play. If you could maintain a high angle between overall airflow and the propellor disc as speed increased (in practical terms you can't at any speed significantly higher than stall speed) then P-Factor forces would increase with speed.

The long and the short of it is I agree with you!! P-Factor is <span class="ev_code_yellow">felt</span> most at low speed/high power because that is when the combination of power/speed/AoA produces the highest p-factor forces and other flight dynamics (the countering stabilisation from the vertical stabilizer) do the least to minimise how much it's felt.

Nevertheless, if you could contrive a situation where you could maintain thrust line offset at higher speeds P-Factor would increase with speed. In the aircraft we fly we can't maintain that offset, it's linked to AoA and AoA reduces rapidly as speed is gained. In addition the vertical stab does it's job better at higher speeds, further reducing how much the effect is felt by the pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So I think what you're saying is that we were saying the samething? I have enjoyed this convo as there aren't many I can talk about these things with. You've also made me think a little more deeply about some things. Sorry to seem so combative. I didn't mean to come across that way. S~

About 1 & 2. They may be the same thing, but I was stating them as cause and a effect. You are also correct about the theory of feeling the effects less at higher speeds because the wings, vertical and horizontal stabilizers are more efficiant because of the airflow. Good show my man!

Tully__
01-11-2006, 01:58 AM
I enjoy it too. As you may have gathered I'm not a real pilot however I do have a reasonable grounding in basic physics with enough aerodynamics to follow the bits a pilot should know. It took me ages to "get" p-factor because all the explanations I initially saw were explaining by rote. The author didn't really understand what he/she was explaining.

Once I got it, the outcomes are obvious, but because I'm thinking of it from an academic point of view rather than a practical one I tend to forget that a pilot isn't considering the force in isolation with only one variable changing at a time. In practical terms that NEVER happens http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BM357_Sniper
01-11-2006, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
I enjoy it too. As you may have gathered I'm not a real pilot however I do have a reasonable grounding in basic physics with enough aerodynamics to follow the bits a pilot should know. It took me ages to "get" p-factor because all the explanations I initially saw were explaining by rote. The author didn't really understand what he/she was explaining.

Once I got it, the outcomes are obvious, but because I'm thinking of it from an academic point of view rather than a practical one I tend to forget that a pilot isn't considering the force in isolation with only one variable changing at a time. In practical terms that NEVER happens http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
One thing I did think of is that our "1 and 2" do effect the aircraft differently. One will cause the plane to roll and 2 will cause the plane to yaw. Just something that entered my mind after thinking about it some more. S~

danimalhanke
02-08-2006, 08:55 AM
http://home.mchsi.com/~d-hanke/grab0000.JPG

In the real world the P-38 could fly with one dead engine, but not fly missing the entire engine! You might want to look at multi engine FM again. Once the engine was shot off, all I needed to do to continue fighting was add opposite rudder as though it was a typical engine out procedure. The lack of the engine should have thrown the weight and balance way off, but as you can see the aircraft was still flyable.

danimalhanke
02-08-2006, 08:59 AM
http://home.mchsi.com/~d-hanke/grab0001.JPG

Oops! I forgot this pix.

Tully__
02-09-2006, 11:41 PM
Just a warning for any that may want to keep this article... once I've had a chance to get some flight time in v4.03 I'm going to un-sticky this if it no longer seems relevant.

danimalhanke
02-16-2006, 07:46 PM
Flight models:
P-38s could not fly with one engine shot off.
P factor and spiralling slipstream have tremendous effect when taking off.
general aviation aircraft have positive stability
fighter aircraft have neutral stablilty
Only the "Gee-Bee" racer had negative stability!
What does this mean?
Well , as an FAA certifed flight instructor and a general aviation pilot with almost 700 hours at the controls of fixed gear and high performance aircraft, the flight models leave a lot to be desired. For example (see above about the P-38) When I bank a fighter it's natural tendencies should be to stay banked. If I roll a fighter to 45 degrees it should stay at 45 degrees. And when I push the throttle to the wall I should get about 45" to 55" of manifold pressure and all the lift I need to make a 90 degree bank turn without a secondary stall!

If these flight models were accurate to the original aircraft very few people would be able to fly this game.

IMHO

DANIMAL

tonyt1960
02-16-2006, 07:59 PM
Fixed gear AND high performance... wow... did that have over 200hp and a constant speed prop too? Or was it at the threshold....


Im just fkin' with ya.... go look at my tests. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

After a bit of review and studying things i forgot years ago, its apparent these flight models should be actually easier to fly than your garden variety 310 or Baron.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/7521037214

AKA_TAGERT
02-19-2006, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by danimalhanke:
http://home.mchsi.com/~d-hanke/grab0000.JPG

In the real world the P-38 could fly with one dead engine, but not fly missing the entire engine!

Oh I think you would be very surprised at what a P38 could do.

Note the spinner is shot off

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/4ALL2SEE/PICTURES/AIRCRAFT/P38/P38_VS_FLACK.JPG

Note the Halifax rudder is stuck in the left wing.

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/4ALL2SEE/PICTURES/AIRCRAFT/P38/P38_VS_HALIFAX.JPG

Two cases of alot of drag that did not end the flight.

Tully__
02-23-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
Just a warning for any that may want to keep this article... once I've had a chance to get some flight time in v4.03 I'm going to un-sticky this if it no longer seems relevant.

It seems it's still being found useful so I've edited the title and left it sticky http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

willyvic
02-23-2006, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
Just a warning for any that may want to keep this article... once I've had a chance to get some flight time in v4.03 I'm going to un-sticky this if it no longer seems relevant.

It seems it's still being found useful so I've edited the title and left it sticky http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You fibber you....... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Bump to keep it on the front page till you see it no be sticky...

WV.

Tully__
02-23-2006, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:
You fibber you....... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Bump to keep it on the front page till you see it no be sticky...

WV.
It's sticky in the General Discussion forum. The PF forum entry is a shortcut, not the primary thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

willyvic
02-23-2006, 09:30 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif