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View Full Version : A question to the u.s. citiziens in the community



Celeon999
10-16-2005, 10:31 AM
I just heard about that neo nazi demo in Toledo in the news.

I know that there are several different neo nazi organisations in the u.s but i didnt know that they have also official websites in the u.s even with .com domains. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

This is the website of the group that caused this riot in Toledo (http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html)

Now my question :

Does the freedom of speech in the u.s include this ?

I mean is it fully legal or just half legal ?

Its strange. Doesnt this come into conflict with other laws ? I mean they talk about the KKK and describe themselves as members of it.

I know that the KKK was declared illegal a long time ago.

And heh this website overflows with antisemitism.

This confuses me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

bunkerratt
10-16-2005, 11:07 AM
yes this is leagal the reason is the first ammendment of the constition ..freedom of speach..i don't agree with it ..but it's leagal...

gamera67
10-16-2005, 11:12 AM
I had just read about the rioting on CNN.com.
I'm by no means a legal expert, but to answer your questions the best I can......
Yes our freedom of speech does allow those kind of web sites. I believe they could even legally print up papers and distribute them if they wanted to.
In fact, from what I read, the Nazi march was completely legal. They had got all the proper permits for their march.

Also the KKK was never declared illegal. I think it was about a year or two ago the KKK had a recruitment rally here in Ohio near my home town. (I'm not near Toledo. Closer to Cleveland) I think their was a counter rally for that, but both groups went about their business peacefully.

panthercules
10-16-2005, 11:21 AM
Yes - one of the effects of the First Amendment to our Constitution is that people like these KKK/neo-nazi clowns are free to demonstrate that they are morons, and it also means that (as the counter demonstrations indicate) the rest of us are free to point out that we know they are dangerous idiots

Gunnersman
10-16-2005, 11:30 AM
*sigh*...Our first amendment in the constitution is a double edged sword. Its great to have but it allows ALL KINDS of people with VERY BAD ideas to speak their minds (as well as those with good ideas).

The KKK and Neo Nazis are allowed to exist because of the first amendment. They just cant lynch (hang), or kill anyone in any way they want anymore like they did in the past. BUT they can speak their twisted minds, put on demonstrations, and march like every other free thinking person in the US. NO ONE that is of sound heart and mind likes the KKK or Neo Nazis.

NOW, that being said, in all fairness, the Neo Nazis did not start the looting and rioting in the Toledo. HOWEVER, you can say they were a catalyst for it.
The Neo Nazis went to a mostly black neighborhood to demonstrate in this neighborhood because they alleged it is a high crime area. That is when all hell broke loose and the bad elements in the neighborhood started the rioting and looting. Im sure that is what the Neo Nazis wanted to happen.


Original posted by bunkerratt...
.freedom of speach..i don't agree with it ..but it's leagal...

Dont agree with what? That the Neo Nazis deserve freedom of speech or do you not agree with freedom of speech in general? Im sure you mean the Neo Nazis dont deserve to be around, I just wanted to clarify.

Celeon999,
Our Constitution's first amendment is considered THE most important amendment to secure our freedoms as US citizens (the right to bear arms is the second, at least in the eyes of our forefather. Many people forget that. It is in order of importance). That is because it is consider of great importance to be able to speak out against our governement when needed. The side effects are 1) The free flow of ideas and also allows 2) people to abuse that freedom (NAMBLA [National Man Boy Love Association]comes to mind as well, I can go on and on and on...).

Toledo is a bad side effect.

Celeon999
10-16-2005, 11:45 AM
Well i assume your countrys founders couldnt foresee that guys like these could use it for such purposes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Our nazis here make use of similar laws that allow them to organize marches and take part in elections.

But the law forbidds them to :

- wear clothing with nazi emblems ,the public showing of symbols that are in connection with national socialism (the swastika, SS runes etc.)

- openly denying that the holocaust happened is since this year also forbidden.

(Very controversal ! , because many people feel that the freedom of speach in germany is once again flushed through the toilet with this decision)

- openly spreading racial hate in speeches

- to have websites on servers located in germany

- to print propaganda or writings that contain antisemitism etc.


Funny is that they now print their propaganda in Poland http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Who thought that it would be Poland to make this possible ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

kSetuni
10-16-2005, 11:48 AM
In fact, from what I read, the Nazi march was completely legal. They had got all the proper permits for their march.

Actually they tried to get a permit to march in the streets but that was denied. So these people legally did their march on the sidewalks. It was the gangs that took advantage of the situation and turned it volatile.

Yes sadly the fredom of speech and expression covers these people, and even flag burners. I proudly served in the military overseas and am a proud member of the VFW. As much as it might infuriate me that people like this can burn flags etc, I also recognize that its the freedom we enjoy here thats so wonderful and what I served to protect. All you have to do is spend some time in countries that the people dont have the freedoms that we take for granted here to realize how fortunate we really are.

S.M.

Gunnersman
10-16-2005, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
Well i assume your countrys founders couldnt foresee that guys like these could use it for such purposes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Good point. Our constitution is meant to restrict our FEDERAL government from doing certain things. They were limited to 10 amendments at first. The forefathers gave the ability to change the amendments by either haveing a "constitutional convention" ( a big meeting to allow anyone and everyone to make whatever changes they want to the constitution, not gonna happen) or have the house of representatives to vote on changes and then have the States give the "OK".

Usually the argument against changeing the first amendment in ANY way is the fear that one change will lead to another, then another and start a "snowball" effect...possiblly to bad effect.
I tend to agree...maybe not in short term but deffinitely in long term.

bunkerratt
10-16-2005, 12:44 PM
gunner...hell yes i belive in freedom of speach..hell i was a marine grunt ...took so scrahpanel in lebanon in 83...i don't belive in the kkk and skinhead b/s...sry i just needed to clairify that...

Gunnersman
10-16-2005, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by bunkerratt:
gunner...hell yes i belive in freedom of speach..hell i was a marine grunt ...took so scrahpanel in lebanon in 83...i don't belive in the kkk and skinhead b/s...sry i just needed to clairify that...

You were in Lebanon! Holy ****!
Were you there when the barracks were bombed?

bunkerratt
10-16-2005, 01:10 PM
yes sir....oct 23rd 1983 about 0600 local ...anyway...a place i'll never forget that most folks will never remember...if you die doing what you belive in you will live forever..good hunting

Gunnersman
10-16-2005, 01:20 PM
Thank you for your service to our country.

The Avon Lady
10-16-2005, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by bunkerratt:
if you die doing what you belive in you will live forever..
"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."
- General George S. Patton, Jr.

Semper Fi! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Kaleun1961
10-16-2005, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by bunkerratt:
yes sir....oct 23rd 1983 about 0600 local ...anyway...a place i'll never forget that most folks will never remember...if you die doing what you belive in you will live forever..good hunting

Isn't this sentiment the motivation for the terrorism that is plaguing us, this idea of eternal reward if you die fighting for your cause? I'm not knocking the vets here, just the idea that fighting for your cause somehow grants you eternal life. Isn't that what religion is for?

Maj_Solo
10-16-2005, 06:05 PM
U.S. law is pretty good here, as much as possible in the open, better than them going underground. It also give you the right to say what you want. Saying what one wants is not the same as getting what one wants, standing there and yelling and not getting anything.... I get tired of just thinking of it.

Yen Lo
10-16-2005, 07:00 PM
That whole thing was because the 'Homies" if you will, resented the NEO-NAZIs coming into their(the "Homies") territory, which was mostly minority, heh, and complaining about the minority crime rate. I saw the Mayors interview on cnn. LMAO I love this country.
Basically dont come to my neighborhood and complain the crimes I commit.( or the ones I do somewhere else lol)

rabu2u
10-16-2005, 09:48 PM
Freedom of Speech allows groups like this to demonstrate, if they do it in peace. I'm embarrassed we have people demonstrating against blacks and minorities in this country, but what was just as bad was the reaction of rock and bottle throwing and rioting against the police that were there to guarantee the rights of Free Speech... I don't know which was worse, at this point.

paulhager
10-16-2005, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
I just heard about that neo nazi demo in Toledo in the news.

I know that there are several different neo nazi organisations in the u.s but i didnt know that they have also official websites in the u.s even with .com domains. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

This is the website of the group that caused this riot in Toledo (http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html)

Now my question :

Does the freedom of speech in the u.s include this ?

I mean is it fully legal or just half legal ?

Its strange. Doesnt this come into conflict with other laws ? I mean they talk about the KKK and describe themselves as members of it.

I know that the KKK was declared illegal a long time ago.

And heh this website overflows with antisemitism.

This confuses me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

The U.S. has a long tradition of personal freedom. Our Declaration of Independence says the following:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all man are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...


We also have a written constitution that embodies those ideas. It includes a part called the Bill of Rights. The first of these states that "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..." A later part of the Constitution says that no state may infringe upon the freedoms spelled out in the Constitution.

All of this means that our system prizes individual freedom above everything. Practically this approach works very well because it means that every idea or belief, no matter how crazy it sounds, gets a fair hearing. It relies on the native intelligence and judgement of the people to determine which ideas are good and which are crazy. When the power to decide which ideas are acceptable is given to the government, it will eventually come to abuse that power. The ideas deemed objectionable will expand, certain kinds inquiry will be banned.

As to specific questions, in the U.S. the KKK is not illegal, neither is the Nazi party.

paulhager
10-16-2005, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bunkerratt:
yes sir....oct 23rd 1983 about 0600 local ...anyway...a place i'll never forget that most folks will never remember...if you die doing what you belive in you will live forever..good hunting

Isn't this sentiment the motivation for the terrorism that is plaguing us, this idea of eternal reward if you die fighting for your cause? I'm not knocking the vets here, just the idea that fighting for your cause somehow grants you eternal life. Isn't that what religion is for? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume the poster is expressing the theme stated (repeatedly) in the movie TROY - that "great deeds" in war are remembered. It's actually not a bad movie (by Wolfgang Petersen, who did DAS BOOT). Of course, other great deeds can confer "immortality": Beethoven, Einstein, Darwin, Vermeer, DaVinci, etc. - deeds that have nothing to do with war.

Most times, it's really not that hard to objectively figure out who the bad guys are: Nazis were bad, the Japanese militarists were bad, the Islamofascists are bad.

rick_475
10-16-2005, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bunkerratt:
yes sir....oct 23rd 1983 about 0600 local ...anyway...a place i'll never forget that most folks will never remember...if you die doing what you belive in you will live forever..good hunting

Isn't this sentiment the motivation for the terrorism that is plaguing us, this idea of eternal reward if you die fighting for your cause? I'm not knocking the vets here, just the idea that fighting for your cause somehow grants you eternal life. Isn't that what religion is for? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since this is already way off topic, why not clarify some things about the act "terrorism" in Lebanon 1983.

The Events :

- In 1976 Syria invaded Lebanon with US approval and commited massacres
- 1982, Israeli invasion of Lebanon
- After you have a US military presence
- Israeli death squads operating in Lebanon during 1983, they assasinate "suspects" in camps and villages.
- The Shiite Muslim population get really mad about what's happening (who wouldn't).
- A Shiite from one of the refugee camp near the airport in Beirut was probably the one who killed 241 soldiers in 1983.


From my point of view, the invasion of Lebanon was the act of terrorism in the story.

Gunnersman
10-17-2005, 12:20 AM
Ahhh hell! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Sorry I brought it up.

Here we go again.