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Abbuzze
07-09-2005, 09:09 AM
Maybe I´m wrong, but the FM of our G6AS is a little bit odd. Many people like it, cause it´s the only available 20mm in latewar 109´s.

In fact this plane was one of the first highaltitude fighters of the LW in service.

Basicly the real G6AS was equipped with a DB605A engine that was modified with the bigger supercharger of the DB603.

While this engine was made for high altitude the sea level performance of this plane was worse than a standard G6.

The plane we have in game is in fact a G6ASM, or G14AS.
This plane got not only the 605AS engine but also a MW50 injection to increase performance at altitude below the rated alt and to cool the engine about this alt.

Ok, enough of therory. I took a look at the performance of our G6AS, but it doesn´t fit to any available chart of the DB605AS/M engines!

In FB the G6AS is starting to loosing performance at 5000m, this is also indicated by the instruments, even
if they are not show correct figures anymore.
In all my flights with this plane 5000m is the edge, abouve this fighting vs P47/51 are difficult cause of the loss of power, so usual 4000m is a good alt to go into a fight to have some reserve with full power above you.

This made this high-alt fighter(at least for LW) a medium altitude fighter, even for LW!

G10 with a DB605DB have a rated alt of 6000m this matches perfectly to the number we have in FB, but the 605ASM have a rated alt of 6400m.
So the AS lacks 1400m to the historical rated alt!!

A few figures:
DB605AS- max. power SL: 1435hp@1,42ata - max. power rated alt: 1200hp@8000m - climbing. power at rated alt: 1150hp@7800m (not included in this simulation)


DB605ASM - max. power SL: 1800hp@1,75ata - max. power rated alt: 1500hp@6400m - climbing. power at rated alt: 1150hp@7800m

DB605DB - max. power SL: 1850hp@1,80ata - max. power rated alt: 1600hp@6000m - climbing. power at rated alt: 1285hp@6800m

http://www.axiomdigital.com/db605.htm

So you see a few intersting facts, above rated alt MW50 just cools the engine, so AS and ASM have the same climbing power at the same rated alt.
And the old ASM engine develops less HP but at higher altitude than a 605DB.

So my request, what about to include a real 605AS, to have an early counterpart to intercept Mossies or flying highcover for Sturmgruppen?

And, or fixing the rated alt of our G6ASM. It was similar to the Performance of the G10 so maybe using this FM with some tweaks would be possible. This would also stop the wish to a 20mm equipped G10.

At the moment the G6AS is just a UFO without any historical background, nice to fly and to turn and burn at low alt - not the best use for a high altitude fighter.

Your opinion?

Ugly_Kid
07-09-2005, 10:06 AM
What would be cool is the GM-1 variants. For example F-4/Z or then U2 for Gs. GM variants would be real dogs at low alt. So rather than modify something that exists put a new one in.

I understood that G-6/AS is based on something and there's even some russian test data for it (since it is like that already from IL-2). It is not uncommon that the designation in the game doesn't really fit - there are several examples of this on russian aircraft.

ElAurens
07-09-2005, 05:15 PM
As some of you know, I am basically an allied flyer in the ETO. (although I fly Japanese in the Pacific). But, the G6AS has always been a favorite of mine. At the last of IL2 I was getting to know the AS fairly well. A well balanced package overall. Fast, yet nimble enough to satisfy my old fashioned turnfighter ways, when that became necessary. I gues what I'm trying to say is that I hope that the G6AS is properly modeled in future, because I will choose it every time over the faster, yet stiffer K4.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-09-2005, 07:47 PM
well, a "real" G6/AS from early 1944 should fly better at medium to higher altitude than a G6LAte but worser at lower altitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

because it shoud not have MW50 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
it would fit much better in the 109 familie - espacially if the G-14 would get a MG151/20 nose canon as default............

at he moment im using it often to avoid a MK108 overkill in late war COOP-missions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Kurfurst__
07-10-2005, 01:31 PM
the g-6/as is an ufo indeed. I`d believe it`s a hybrid model of 2000 HP and 1800 HP engines. The speed at SL (580kph) is too fast for 1800HP (560kph, G-14/AS) the climb`s rated altitude of 5000m also suggests 2000HP.

But then, we have many ufos... Mustang III is the latest on the allied side, and the allagedely 1725 HP P-38 'late'... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ie. there`s no documentation of that power being cleared in service for the P38L, in fact usaaf datacharts list it with the same 1600HP as the P-38J, it was born due to overwhelming whining.

ElAurens
07-10-2005, 05:28 PM
Well, in some small defence of boosted outputs for various US manufactured aircraft...

In the US we have a little tradition called "hot rodding". We do it to our cars and we did it to in-service aircraft in WW2. The most notable examples I can think of were the over boosted P47s in the ETO and P40s in the South Pacific that were modified by ground crews to run 75"hg, which gave on the order of 1400+ HP at sealevel. These modifications were never condoned by the manufacturers or the Air Corps brass, but the guys on the ground went and did it anyway.

It's called initiative.

It's what wins wars.

new-fherathras
07-10-2005, 05:47 PM
how fun

Atomic_Marten
07-17-2005, 04:24 AM
Well I can tell one thing for sure, that plane is really fast and there are no many planes that can catch it, also only G10 and K4 could catch it in a climb. But then again G6AS will outmanoeuver them..

Another words excellent ride. I have test it on arcade type server against all types like Yak-3 Spit9 LA-7 KI84s FW190s etc., I was able to win in most cases.
And no it is not the pilot it is the plane in this case. I just simply outrun and outclimb them then - hammerhead.(yaks and spits are very vulnerable to this type of attack since they are no chance in climb against G6AS; LAs are tough but if I drag them over 3000m they aren't so tough anymore)

Kurfurst__
07-17-2005, 04:58 AM
Well if we are to have a real 605ASM engined Gustav in FB, then it should fly 560 kph at SL, and 680 kph at 7500m. The current one exceeds these and also have a rated alt of 6000m.
Correct if it`s an ASC engined Gustav, though.
Climbs rates I won`t get into, as

a, it`s bad for all planes in the game
b, the radiator drag/cooling on the 109 is badly modelled and that would be a major factor.

VW-IceFire
07-17-2005, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Well, in some small defence of boosted outputs for various US manufactured aircraft...

In the US we have a little tradition called "hot rodding". We do it to our cars and we did it to in-service aircraft in WW2. The most notable examples I can think of were the over boosted P47s in the ETO and P40s in the South Pacific that were modified by ground crews to run 75"hg, which gave on the order of 1400+ HP at sealevel. These modifications were never condoned by the manufacturers or the Air Corps brass, but the guys on the ground went and did it anyway.

It's called initiative.

It's what wins wars.
As I understand it, one P-47 pilot had his D-5 boosted to such an extreme level that it was quite possibly the fastest fighter in the ETO. I forget who it was but there was alot of customization and a degree of freedom seemingly allowed to the USAAF squadrons that you don't see elsewhere. No doubt, the building of things to rediculous tolerances was helpful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Abbuzze
07-18-2005, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Well if we are to have a real 605ASM engined Gustav in FB, then it should fly 560 kph at SL, and 680 kph at 7500m. The current one exceeds these and also have a rated alt of 6000m.
Correct if it`s an ASC engined Gustav, though.
Climbs rates I won`t get into, as

a, it`s bad for all planes in the game
b, the radiator drag/cooling on the 109 is badly modelled and that would be a major factor.

Hi!
Yes, you could be right with the ASC engine, it would fit to the rated alt with MW50. Then our G6AS is a 45 plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ruy Horta
07-18-2005, 10:36 AM
Don't think the Luftwaffe didn't have people with initiative, or do people still seriously believe that only Americans have that trait?

Clear example, one reason the German army performed better than expected in the second half of the war was due to the high level of independance of its NCO cadre. Not the brain dead little HJ boys as pictured in novels, but professional soldiers.

Reminds me of Dale Brown and Tom Clancy, where the enemy always fails through lack of initiative...simple.

jagdmailer
07-19-2005, 11:42 AM
Like I said in my "Last plea for the 109" thread, the late 109 (ie. Gustav & somewhat Krufurst) variant collection we have in FB/AEP/PF is in need of a revamp.

- The G-6/AS is not really a G-6/AS, but really a G-14/ASM. The G-14/ASM should start appearing in July 1944.....
- There is no real G-6/AS with the DB605AS- max. power SL: 1435hp@1,42ata - max. power rated alt: 1200hp@8000m - climbing. power at rated alt: 1150hp@7800m
- There is no high altitude GM-1 (Nitrous Oxide) Gustavs (ie. 1943 Bf 109G-6/U2 or even G-5/U2 for that matter) - Mosquito busting needed soon.......
- a G-6/U2 "Field Mod" with the converted GM-1 into MW-50 kits as issued by the RLM would fit nice in Feb/March of 1944, 4-5 months before the G-14s with "standard" MW-50 start to appear in June of 1944.
- There is no real 1945 (cleared in Jan/Feb 1945)2000hp DB605DC/DB605ASC variants of the G-14 (DB605ASC), G-10 (DB605DC) and K-4 (DB605DC)
- There is no MG151/20 motor-kanone variants of the G-10s & G-14s.....

Minimal to moderate amount of work for historical accuracy IMHO would be required here with a revamp of the 1943 Bf 109G-6 and up series in this sim. ie. Bf 109G-6/U2 & G-5/U2 as well as their "Field Mod" equivalent would basically just need some little cosmetic template modifications as such to represent them accuratly external model wise (GM-1 & MW-50 fill nozzles....) and would need a FM tweak that is about it.

Read my other post about this that I have been carrying on & off on this board for about 18-24 months now.....

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/3441006933

Regards,

Jagd

jagdmailer
07-21-2005, 02:53 PM
bump

Jagd