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LLv34_Stafroty
03-20-2005, 08:04 PM
are you Oleg going to model those in BoB?
would be nice if wing storage ammo goes of and cuts the wing or such.

Werre_Fsck
03-21-2005, 12:00 AM
Be careful what you're asking for.
Probably any hit anywhere would blow off Emils wings... and the feature would be forgotten in hurri/spit.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-21-2005, 07:08 AM
oh, u gotta be right on that.

we dont want ammo storage explosions. it ur gonna model it, model it first on allied planes.

Nubarus
03-21-2005, 09:42 AM
A normal feature request post turned into a pre-bob whine post within 3 posts.

This has got to be a new record. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BlackStar2000
03-21-2005, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
are you Oleg going to model those in BoB?
would be nice if wing storage ammo goes of and cuts the wing or such. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would be nice, i have a DVD of the First Brazilian fighter Group in Italy shooting ammo storage and anything that can be voulched, it was very impressive becouse was huge explosions ans we los a plane in one of those explsions, Brazilians use P47.
http://www.sentapua.com.br/Ing/indexIng.html

p1ngu666
03-21-2005, 01:14 PM
imagine a box of mk108 going up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
and it would effect .303 rounds less i guess, because they have less explosive in them?

tigertalon
03-21-2005, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
imagine a box of mk108 going up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
and it would effect .303 rounds less i guess, because they have less explosive in them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but it's usualy 10 times more of them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Can you imagine the nose of Bf110 with 108s going off? (135 30mm rpg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

LLv34_Stafroty
03-22-2005, 10:17 AM
anyway, it should be "bye bye" for any fighter if such happens. they didnt put armor around those without reason. well, not every ammo box was armored.

Erkki_M
03-22-2005, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>imagine a box of mk108 going up <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If their going to do what we damand in "burning & explosions" -topip; ammo storage explosions wont be such a threat for 109 than explosing by fire.... Except if their model burning damaging them as well as bullets. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I really dont think that this would be worth of modelling, or at least very hard to model.Remember that explosive bullets explose only if they get broken & lit up, so you should shoot an enemy plane at headone or at least at very high angle.

AlmightyTallest
03-22-2005, 11:38 PM
You guys mean like this?

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/download.php?id=4205

It's compiled guncam footage of .50 caliber striking the wings of what I believe are German aircraft. It looks like either the fuel, or the ammo exploded because of the .50 cal Armor Piercing Incindiary, and Incindiary rounds igniting fuel or ammo.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-23-2005, 07:09 AM
yeas, that what we mean. nasty aint it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AlmightyTallest
03-23-2005, 01:16 PM
Oh yea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Very nasty.

Would be a nice addition to the realism if Oleg could fine tune it or implement it in some way if it's not modelled currently. I have the suspicion that it's modeled to some extent in PF though, you have to hit the wing at about 90 degress, not edge on. You'll notice that in those guncam shots, most of the engagements were almost 90 degree deflection shots, but not all of them that got the catastrophic results.

faustnik
03-23-2005, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlmightyTallest:
You guys mean like this?

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/download.php?id=4205

It's compiled guncam footage of .50 caliber striking the wings of what I believe are German aircraft. It looks like either the fuel, or the ammo exploded because of the .50 cal Armor Piercing Incindiary, and Incindiary rounds igniting fuel or ammo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awesome footage!!! Those all look like Fw190s hit by .50 cal in the wing ammo bins. That would definately be a great DM addition!

Waldo.Pepper
03-24-2005, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlmightyTallest:
You guys mean like this?

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/download.php?id=4205

It's compiled guncam footage of .50 caliber striking the wings of what I believe are German aircraft. It looks like either the fuel, or the ammo exploded because of the .50 cal Armor Piercing Incindiary, and Incindiary rounds igniting fuel or ammo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think that this is the fuel tank going up, not ammo.

If it were ammo there I think that there would be VISIBLE damage done to the fuselage. There seems to be none in this footage.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-24-2005, 09:25 AM
visible damage to fuselage from what? shrapnels? fragments?

can you see visible damaeg from .50cal hits on fuselage on that vid? i cant.

and, tell me where is flames from that fuel? only fast boom there with black smoke. 95 octace fuel doesnt act like that. and, there was no wing fuel tanks in FW190 series http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
03-24-2005, 09:44 AM
btw ive heard of ammo going off in aircraft on fire and when they have crashed

guess the rounds get so hot, the pressure inside the round icreases and they go pop.

mk108 rounds seem potent enuff that a rather deadly chain reaction would take place very quickly

AlmightyTallest
03-24-2005, 11:22 AM
Maybe that's what we're seeing then p1ngu.

I have other guncam shots of other German aircraft that just have small flame shooting from behind the fuselage, and other Japanese aircraft that got hit in the wings leaving sheets of flame trailing behind them.

The guncam I posted literally looks like an ammo explosion. There's no flame, just a BOOM! with a puff of smoke left behind then nothing.

If you look at the first plane in that video, pause it and move it forward frame by frame, you can actually see the .50 cal rounds going into the wing, and there werent many less than a seconds worth. They leave a small flash of light as they strike the wing and then the whole wing disintigrates. That's the kind of Incindiary or API .50 caliber rounds I'd like to see in PF http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Geez, thought just occured to me, a Ki-84C getting hit in it's 30mm ammo bin with incindiary or API rounds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Or a 20mm gunned F4U-1C getting hit... Wow! Would be a great addition to the damage model to model ammo explosions if they aren't already.

p1ngu666
03-24-2005, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlmightyTallest:
Maybe that's what we're seeing then p1ngu.

I have other guncam shots of other German aircraft that just have small flame shooting from behind the fuselage, and other Japanese aircraft that got hit in the wings leaving sheets of flame trailing behind them.

The guncam I posted literally looks like an ammo explosion. There's no flame, just a BOOM! with a puff of smoke left behind then nothing.

If you look at the first plane in that video, pause it and move it forward frame by frame, you can actually see the .50 cal rounds going into the wing, and there werent many less than a seconds worth. They leave a small flash of light as they strike the wing and then the whole wing disintigrates. That's the kind of Incindiary or API .50 caliber rounds I'd like to see in PF http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Geez, thought just occured to me, a Ki-84C getting hit in it's 30mm ammo bin with incindiary or API rounds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Or a 20mm gunned F4U-1C getting hit... Wow! Would be a great addition to the damage model to model ammo explosions if they aren't already. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would indeed be sweet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
also theres the propellent for the round, that will go off aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

AlmightyTallest
03-24-2005, 11:52 AM
Exactly, when the propellent gets heated and the round fires, even if not in the chamber, it's called "Cooking off"

Would be great to see these features in the sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Waldo.Pepper
03-24-2005, 12:21 PM
I still think its fuel.

visible damage to fuselage from what? shrapnels? fragments?


Yes from the supposedly exploding ammo. I would think that there would be damage to the fuselage by the ammo going off. Fragments - YES definately - but really I would think that if an entire load of 20MM ammo went off that the plane would DISINTEGRATE.


And, tell me where is flames from that fuel? only fast boom there with black smoke. 95 octace fuel doesnt act like that. and, there was no wing fuel tanks in FW190 series http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A full fuel tank (fuel line, oil tank etc ) will NOT explode. But one that is partially empty (and therefore full of vapors) WILL definately explode. It looks just like that.

But Just for you, in case you want to see a FLAME well here are the five kills (converted to still images to see the flame!) Unfortunately the third one shows nothing because at the moment of the explosion it exactly matches the bachground color. even fiddling with ps I couldn't bring out any contrast at the moment of the explosion.

http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a03316/boom/first.JPG
First.
http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a03316/boom/second.JPG
Second.
http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a03316/boom/third.JPG
Third.
http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a03316/boom/fourth.JPG
Fourth.
http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a03316/boom/fifth.JPG
Fifth.

I think maybe every plane in that video was a D series FW. (I think that the first one might in fact be a TA from the wingspan but it is virtually impossible to tell.

There is certainly fuel in the wings on the D series. See attached pictures from the Fw190D walkaround book (Squadron Signal Pub)

http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a03316/boom/WA.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/public/a5a03316/boom/WA2.jpg


No wing tanks in the Fw190 - A series correct! But without tanks there is definately fuel in the wings.

The TA series has BOTH INNER and OUTER tanks in each wing.

I still think it is fuel. The remains of the plane is TOO intact for it to be ammo going off.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-24-2005, 02:21 PM
when ammo cooking, it doesnt always mean that He content in the shells are exploding, it might be only propellant stuff inside cardridges and thats it. Most or could i say all the explosives have the critical temperature limit, when reached, explosion follows, cos stuff not anymore stable.

you guys know, you can shoot thru TNT block with assault rifle, and it just makes hole in it. but if you set TNT on flames (yes, it burns) it comes unstable, and might explode when you try to put flames off with water hose. but, i could claim that propellant would light up much easier than He stuff. if using api ammo against TNT, it doesnt mean anything, doesnt blow it up, TNT is most safest explosive there is made if i recall correctly. it doesnt reacht with water, can store it loong times, needs really hard punch to make it explode (Pent fuses)

well, in many cannon ammo there is no TNT inside the ammo, but like in germans, petn or HA41 or such, really high energy explosives, while allies mostly used softer boom He stuff (TNT.. having shortcut in brains due been withtout good sleep in 2 weeks, been up 40 hours again with no sleep)

anyway, propellant in every gun cardridges goes of if hit with API or incendiary ammo, only spark is enought for it to cook, so, its machineguns, cannons etc which make boom or bigger boom,, in most cases, if ammo storage is full, its bye bye wing. it takes time to heat up metal shell of HE rounds till they explode, and in that time when they do, wing is already gone.
propellant cooking makes lots of heat, hot gasses, pressure and smoke, still, not exploding like explosives does, much slower burning speed on propellant.

anyway, its always nasty if those cook of.

there is somewhere video in internet, where some WW2 era tank got hit and its ammo cooks off, turret is jumping over the hull, flames coming out from every hole, really nasty looking, 0% survival for crew in that case

p1ngu666
03-24-2005, 09:25 PM
still, wouldnt want tobe in that plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

AlmightyTallest
03-25-2005, 09:23 AM
Definately, wether it was a fuel explosion, ammo explosion or a combination of both it must have been very traumatic to suddenly have a loud explosion next to your cockpit and have a wing completely missing in an instant.

Everytime I look at footage like that, I always remember that there was a human being in that plane, fighting for his country.

LLv34_Stafroty
03-25-2005, 12:14 PM
war aint nice. ppls get hurt, badly. seen really bad looking vids from different fighting areas where ppl:s are cut etc, not nice to see. but that is what happens all the time somewehre in the world.

p1ngu666
03-25-2005, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
war aint nice. ppls get hurt, badly. seen really bad looking vids from different fighting areas where ppl:s are cut etc, not nice to see. but that is what happens all the time somewehre in the world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

humans ability to kill, maim, hurt another human, is unmatched in nature http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

theres a book called the last enemy i think, guys a fighter pilot, and he thinks hes either gonna be alive and fine, or dead.
he gets badly burned..

pourshot
03-25-2005, 02:36 PM
I have the same film clips on VHS and the 190's are mostly A models, I would say after looking at the film its ammo cooking off.

The late spitfires had armour over the ammo bins and it's not hard to see why http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LLv34_Stafroty
03-25-2005, 03:55 PM
some FW models also had ammo storages armored, cant remember which one(s). and i think its only rear section of ammo bin which is armored somehow.
in planes there is too many critical places to cover with armour from every angle, if armored, plane aint maveuverable anymore, or even non flyable.

Oxygenbottle explosion is quite big boom as well, releases much pressure fast, and quicens fire burning much (if there is any)

pourshot
03-25-2005, 04:07 PM
Rgr that about the armour, the spit had only a plate top and bottom it did not encase the entire ammo bin. And yeah oxy bottles go BANG lol

p1ngu666
03-25-2005, 04:10 PM
yep oxybottles go bang in a big way

ju88S1 got shot down like that, or gm2 bottle, just exploded when hit in the rear fusealarge

Erkki_M
03-26-2005, 05:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>theres a book called the last enemy i think, guys a fighter pilot, and he thinks hes either gonna be alive and fine, or dead.
he gets badly burned.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have read that book.... I think that Hillary didnt actually hate germans, but he hated their ideology. At the same time his an elitistic university student, who looks downwards almost all other people.

I dont know why I hated his view of world.

I didnt like that book.


Anyway: Oleg, we really really really must have ammo storage explosions to the next patch or patch following it!

LLv34_Stafroty
03-31-2005, 02:40 AM
`bumbin this bi@ch up