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View Full Version : The punch would increase with a few more tracers.



F19_Ob
08-16-2005, 04:11 AM
The punch with the 50 cal, for example, is good if u hit, but surprizingly often enemies escape between tracers even at close range wich doesn't correspond so well with guncamera films where the rate of fire and hits are very rapid on a turning enemy.

I was checking and comparing the rate of tracers on some planes and noticed that for example only one of the p51's has alternating tracers, meaning it's tracers are a bit more dense and the others has the normal gaps.

I understand that implementing lots of tracers causes stutters but there are a few exeptions of nescesity in the game already;
the mg equipped Hurricane, for example, has the very dense tracers, as it should.
It would ofcourse be severely handicapped if it had a tracer-stream like the p47 with gaps for the enemy to fly through and with the weak weapons it would at best inflict minor damage on an enemy, unless lucky and hit the pilot.

So giving the hurricane a denser stream of tracers is nescessary because the plane itself is very poor in performance and it would likely be much worser in respect to the opposition than it was in RL, especially the one with 12 mg's.

Ofcourse all planes had a denser stream of bullets in reality but the sim has limitations wich must be respected.

In my opinion a few more poor planes could use the denser tracers to make them closer to reality, and these planes are for example;
P47 wich were known for the dense stream of bullets.
And planes with 4 mg's or less, or atleast the ones with only two guns.
Perhaps bombers?

Planes like p38 already have alternating tracers with cannon and mg's firing separately wich makes the the tracer stream reasonable like the 109's and fw190.
All P51's could have the tracer stream that only one of them have now, wich is kind of an intermediate , having a single tracer filling the gap, wich perhaps would work on other planes aswell.


There is just one thing nagging me, and that is, when hurricanes have'em and it works fine, I cant understand why alternating tracers wasn't implemented on more planes.
Atleast with a hurricane its possible to achieve those rapid flashes on the enemys fuselage that can be seen in guncamera films.

Just a few observations and thoughts.
It's really too late for major changes in this sim, and this is why I only post in GD, but for future sims it might be of interrest.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Abbuzze
08-16-2005, 04:43 AM
There are just a few problems.
First tracer bullets are less powerfull than AP bullets. And they have a different balistic than than other kinds of ammo, so a lot of people would lead their tracerstream into target, and missing with the others.

Badsight.
08-16-2005, 04:49 AM
i seriously believe this game penalises multiple MG planes

seems to me that planes spitting out hundreds of bullets a second are getting them "lost" , & not just thru packets

& this is in planes that really need every single bullet to hit

F19_Ob
08-16-2005, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
i seriously believe this game penalises multiple MG planes

seems to me that planes spitting out hundreds of bullets a second are getting them "lost" , & not just thru packets

& this is in planes that really need every single bullet to hit

I think the addition of a single tracer between the clusters of tracers, like in only one of the p51D's is a bit better solution than the common one with the gaps.
I doubt it increases the killratio but it looks better and perhaps makes the pilot feel there is a continuos stream of bullets. Also one more round may cause some minor damage that may help.

But then ofcourse it becomes a bit annoying when 8 heavy mg's miss at close range because the enemy flies between the gaps.
Perhaps this should be posted in orr after all and atleast once point this out clearly in text.

They must have discussed this and experimented. The single p51D with the alternating tracers is an indication of that.

Hoarmurath
08-16-2005, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
But then ofcourse it becomes a bit annoying when 8 heavy mg's miss at close range because the enemy flies between the gaps.


Hu? do you have a track of this?

Abbuzze
08-16-2005, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
i seriously believe this game penalises multiple MG planes

seems to me that planes spitting out hundreds of bullets a second are getting them "lost" , & not just thru packets

& this is in planes that really need every single bullet to hit

I think it´s more a hitting problem, the last time I tried it seriously I needed avg. 20 hits to kill a 109.
Just a short calculations, first many people think HMG are spraying hundreds of bulltes per second.

Lets take us a P47 8x 0.50 with aprox. 750 bullets per min. Thats 6000 bullets per minute for all HMG´s. Impressive - no doubt!
But for a single second burst there are "just" 100 bullets - if all of them would hit!
I use to spray a lot with MG´s and just use the Cannons for properly aiming in LW planes my usualy hitrate is around 6% but of course there are sniper out there with 10 or even 12pct. hits.
Lets take us 10 percent. That means that 10 HMG bullets are hitting a fighter in a one second burst. If you shot out of convergance range probably less- within the convergance probably more - with the expected result.

Thats the problem, because of the high rate of fire of such an HMG most people believe ever plane in their gunsight simply have to disintegrate, but they forget that to get one of this famous guncam footages a lot of unsucsessfull attacks were made!
And you need no hundreds of bullets to rip planes apart, you need the few in the right place!

No doubt that the DM of the FW is more than strange, no need for any further discussion!
But most planes are real hard damaged when hit by a well aimed 0.50 burst.

F19_Ob
08-16-2005, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
But then ofcourse it becomes a bit annoying when 8 heavy mg's miss at close range because the enemy flies between the gaps.


Hu? do you have a track of this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


There is really no need to prove it with a track m8, since u so simply can reproduce similar results in minutes in QMB and get a good understanding of the issue.

With some 600 or 700 tracks I very likely have multiple tracks since this is not a short time observation but but wading through them takes time and I usually do that sort of thing when it's nescessary http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

U can easily discover the likelyhood of gapshooting yourself by just comparing the tracer stream by making a short track this way:
Shoot at a flying friendlytarget with some deflection from different angles, it doesn't have to be 90' and not a very long track but use lon bursts and remeber the deflection angle.

Watch your track in slow motion and U will se the gaps .
To broaden the understanding take the hurricane mk1 or 2b or the p51 with alternating tracers and do the same and this should immediatly add to your big picture in a short while.

So, what I'm saying is that the sim has not the dense stream as u can see on better guncam movies of the p47 for example. I have videotapes so I cant post them. but there was a few similar color clips posted on this board a while ago wich was almost selfexplanatory.

In real life there ofcourse was bullets between the tracers wich we also can experience when shooting on the ground, but in the air however there are gaps.

So a limitation in the sim. This is partly compensated for by allowing hits if the tracers are close but still the gaps gives posibilities that I don't think were there and wich are compensated for in the game already but not on all planes.
This explanes why only one of the p51D's have alternating tracers, and it should ofcourse be so on all planes including the p47.
Well atleast reasonable acording to the fact in the game (if one have it, the others should too).

Feel free to give feedback when U have tested yourself and seen the different tracers.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Diablo310th
08-16-2005, 06:54 AM
Ob...another problem which has been documented on here in another thread is that multiple fifties shoot in synchronized groups. This leaves gaps large enough for a plane to slip between untouched. There really isn't a steady stream of bullets going out there. If it was that way, then hitting and getting enough rounds on target would be much easier.

BBB_Hyperion
08-16-2005, 07:14 AM
I have had always the impression that bullets got shoot out in packets so there is a kind of grouping when a packet is lost there exist spaces.

I dont think they model single bullets on transfer but use packets of bullets that get a certain probability to hit. (The more lag the higher the chances of a "impossible" hit) . Problem of this kind of compromise is that it is likely that bullets that would have hit never reached the host or that cause of the grouped bullets enemy plane can use spaces to escape. While on the other hand when it hits it is not just like 1 bullet hit but a group of hits where should be only 1 hit. So the complete gunnery looks like a compromise for calculation speed.

MEGILE
08-16-2005, 07:15 AM
I think thats the problem he was trying to explain Diablo, just with different words.

100% agree.

F19_Ob
08-16-2005, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
Ob...another problem which has been documented on here in another thread is that multiple fifties shoot in synchronized groups. This leaves gaps large enough for a plane to slip between untouched. There really isn't a steady stream of bullets going out there. If it was that way, then hitting and getting enough rounds on target would be much easier.

Thats the fact on th p47 but not the hurricane mk2b or the latest p51D mustang.

This mustang has one tracer between the grouped ones wich is an intermediate way to solve the issue, but the other p51's have the same as the p47.

I bet many of u have seen the dense stream from a real p47 strafing the ground. It can paint with the hits and hose up and down.
On the p38 there also is an intermediate experiment where the 50cals and the 20mm cannon alternate to give an ok hosing effect wich it was known for and one reason the pilots often claimed hits on too long ranges.

The correct hosing effect can be seen in the game aswell, especially on water where the gaps are filled out. The gaps are filled out on ground aswell but the real hits are discovered by bigger puffs so the gaps are easily detected on land.
If one wants to see this clearly u can fire across a river onto ground and discover that the bulletpattern is denser when it hits water.

The hurricane 2b has a very dense stream of tracers and creates a similar effect on the ground as the p47 and p51 does in guncamera films.

----------------------------------------------

Even the p47 guns as they are now may cause a slower machine to lag when strafing ground but the difference compared to the hurricane mk2b isn't that big so I really thinks it would have been interesting to test and add atleast a few tracers between the gaps. we already know it works since some planes already are equipped with thisand lag can be avoided by shooting shorter bursts.

If u haven't tested these things yet, perhaps U should.
This is the best sim yet for me and it's still worth working for to the last minute.
Well, my opinion.

jurinko
08-16-2005, 07:42 AM
guys can you imagine P-47 with eight Berezin machineguns?

Hoarmurath
08-16-2005, 08:19 AM
Ah, you don't have tracks... I'm not surprised.

Diablo310th
08-16-2005, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
Ah, you don't have tracks... I'm not surprised.

Do a search on teh 50's and you'll find theh pics from the trk. I hahve better things to do.

Kocur_
08-16-2005, 09:36 AM
Technical sidenote:
M2's ROF, say
800 rpm,
muzzle velocity:
870m/s, lets assume (falsely of course, but to simplify it all) that projectiles dont slow down until firing usual distance

800/60=13,3 projectiles a second, ie.:a projectile every
0,075s

So next projectile leaves muzzle, when previous is:
0,075 x 870 = 65m away.
Somewhat less in RL due to loss of speed.

So there would have to be quite high angle speed between firing line and target, due to movement of target or that line or both, to make it possible to fly "between bullets". On the other hand if game makes all guns fire salvos and there is some netcode loss it might lover considerably effectiveness of guns that use KE only or mostly, to do the damage, ie. those that take large amount of hits on target to do serious damage...

JG5_UnKle
08-16-2005, 09:52 AM
I agree that there are probably gaps in the packets between bullet streams but at the same time don't really have a problem with it.

The same thing seems to happen to several weapons, granted "visually" it works differently with the Hurri but does that mean this is how the game calculates where the bullets really are?

Basically what I'm saying is - do the in game visuals match up to the actual events happening with the rounds in flight?

Philipscdrw
08-16-2005, 10:33 AM
In the original Il-2 (version 1) the bullets were fired in packets. But one of the changes for FB was modelling each individual bullet seperately, when firing the guns, which Oleg said was against his judgement (it decreases performance of the sim) but was the popular demand.

F19_Ob, are you saying that it's not possible to score hits on an aircraft except with the tracer rounds? Or are you saying that if you fire a P-47 at someone, you get 8 rounds hitting at the same time 300 times a second (or whatever the firing rate is) instead of a random stream from 8 desynchronised guns?

BBB_Hyperion
08-16-2005, 10:40 AM
You misinterpreted somthing there i think Phillipscdrw . It was changed to show all bullets on GFX. The calculation for hits is done localy and then send . It is and was always send in packets.

Visual effects show only a stage of damage not even correct damage type sometimes or damage degree it is only optics.

Philipscdrw
08-16-2005, 11:02 AM
Are you talking about online play? I thought we were talking about offline play.

FritzGryphon
08-16-2005, 12:21 PM
Shoot at the ground for a second, and count the impacts.

You'll see about 15 per second per gun. All bullets accounted for. Water or land (though, they're harder to see on land).

If Hurricane 30cal looks more dense, it's because theres more bullets being shot. And I think more tracers, too (so you get the watering can effect, and more puffs when they hit the ground)

8 x Berezin probably would be much better against a weak, flammable target, like MiG-3s or P-39s. But if you are shooting a FW-190, I think you'd want to switch back to .50s.

But I agree, it'd be nice if the 50s would fire out of sync. I don't think it'd magically improve my kill rate, but it'd look cooler to see a bullet stream, rather than bullet groups.

F19_Ob
08-16-2005, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
Ah, you don't have tracks... I'm not surprised.

soo...U mean u actually didn't do the simple test yourself? I'm not overwhelmingly surprised either. Feel free to try again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

No tracks are needed to see the pattern of tracers. Clearly seen in slowmotion from outside and from above.
Remember that I'm not arguing that for example the 50 cals have too soft punch....I think they are fine.
However tracers are not and clearly are too spaced. On many of the guncamera films I've seen the p47 tracers look more like the hurricane's in the sim and even the ground hit-pattern looks closer to the hurricane aswell.

109's ,fw190 in the sim have a dense pattern followed by a 50 cal type of gap and again a dense pattern, and note that the 109 only have 2 mg's and a single cannon.
The p38 for example have not as dense pattern as the 109 or fw, even if the p38's cannon alternates with the mg's. surely the p38 had a denser tracerpattern than a plane with almost half the nr of guns.

Now if we talk about the actual bullets there are infact some between the tracers, wich can be seen when strafing a plane on ground for example with arcade mode on.


To densen the tracers on a p47 to the same extent as in the 109 or fw190 shouldn't be anything to argue about really.
The hurricane and p40c and p51D20NA has it already so it should be implemented on all, but it would be best ofcourse to give atleast the same density as the 109 wich only have 3 guns.
So just the visual effect could be an improvement even if it is only psychological.
To me it would be good if 8 heavy mg's Atleast look harder punching than 8 light mg's.

well, what I think. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
08-16-2005, 12:42 PM
I agree that if the .50s should be not firing like a shotgun if they didn't IRL...I suspect this is due to packet/bandwidth limitations so as to keep the max number of packets for any firing aircraft to a limit...

Planes passing through 'streams of fire' is something not limited to the MGs, however. The 190 puts out a lot of shells in a short space of time but planes, paricularly online, often fly right through it.

When we get faster machines and a super-Internet (or maybe everyone just moves away from dial up), things might be very different.

Ta,
Norris

FritzGryphon
08-16-2005, 12:48 PM
To clarify, the game doesn't transfer individual bullet locations in online games. It simply tracks the pull and release of the trigger (and even then, doesn't do that well). All trajectory and hit detection is done on the client machine. It makes no difference for performance if the bullets happen to be synced or unsynced.

IIRC, Oleg said it is correct for the .50s to fire synchronously. Personally, I've see footage of them firing synchronously (like the shot where the P-47 fires in the dark, and the tracers come out in neat rows), and some out of sync (seemingly random 'stream' patern while shooting at the ground).

GH_Klingstroem
08-16-2005, 01:04 PM
well in real life not all of the guns fired at the same time. so there was always one of the 6 guns (p51) giving a tracer... Thats the problem with this game. Here when u push the button to fire in a p51 or p47, all guns will fire at the same time and since only every 5th bullet or so is a tracerbullet, it will look like there is a gap. One mustnt forget that there are 3-5 round in between every tracer! I would love to see them change the order the guns fire so it would be like real life and u would also get a steady stream of tracers!!
cheers

F19_Ob
08-16-2005, 01:20 PM
Well any way, the tracers on the hurricane mk1 and 2b are fantastic and the dancing flashes on the enemy planes are well done.
There seemingly are three types of visual hit-effects from mg's.
The light mg's have only flashes and small debris while the heavy mg's cause a transparrent little flame or spark.
Perhaps this is why there aren't so many flashes with heavy mg's?

Also a thought about cannonhits on guncamera films.
There is either a very quick flash wich is similar to the mg hit-flash in the sim (but larger), or only smokepuffs and debris.
I have never seen slow big round balls like we have, not even the few 30mm hits I've seen, well not yet anyway.
Have anyone of U?

I think the quick flash on guncamera films makes the punch look much harder than the soft slow balls . Perhaps it would look better with just a puff and debris?
just thinking.

BBB_Hyperion
08-16-2005, 01:35 PM
Old Guncams have a red shift recording partly infrared frequencies cause of the used film that is why flashes appear different there as human eye would see it.

Hoarmurath
08-16-2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
soo...U mean u actually didn't do the simple test yourself? I'm not overwhelmingly surprised either. Feel free to try again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

No tracks are needed to see the pattern of tracers. Clearly seen in slowmotion from outside and from above.
Remember that I'm not arguing that for example the 50 cals have too soft punch....I think they are fine.
However tracers are not and clearly are too spaced. On many of the guncamera films I've seen the p47 tracers look more like the hurricane's in the sim and even the ground hit-pattern looks closer to the hurricane aswell.

109's ,fw190 in the sim have a dense pattern followed by a 50 cal type of gap and again a dense pattern, and note that the 109 only have 2 mg's and a single cannon.
The p38 for example have not as dense pattern as the 109 or fw, even if the p38's cannon alternates with the mg's. surely the p38 had a denser tracerpattern than a plane with almost half the nr of guns.

Now if we talk about the actual bullets there are infact some between the tracers, wich can be seen when strafing a plane on ground for example with arcade mode on.


To densen the tracers on a p47 to the same extent as in the 109 or fw190 shouldn't be anything to argue about really.
The hurricane and p40c and p51D20NA has it already so it should be implemented on all, but it would be best ofcourse to give atleast the same density as the 109 wich only have 3 guns.
So just the visual effect could be an improvement even if it is only psychological.
To me it would be good if 8 heavy mg's Atleast look harder punching than 8 light mg's.

well, what I think. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

I have never seen someone passing in between .50 shots at close range, or at any range for that matter. If you don't have a track showing it, i believe you have never seen one either. Looking at the intervals between your tracers is of course the dumbest method of knowing what is actually happening. Of course because not all your bullets are tracers, and because you are not taking into account the time necessary for your bullets to cross that "gap". I wonder if you have any idea of the speed that would be necessary for a plane to cross that gap before your next volley of tracers hit him.

Kuna15
08-16-2005, 03:11 PM
Did anyone in this thread bother to bring up old LeadSpitter's .50cal desynchronisation whine? I didn't notice that one yet.

That is all what .50es need. Desynchronisation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There will be no more escaping thru shower of bullets from 6x.50cal.
From some tests I have seen, only P-40 M-105 has desynchronised M2's. All other planes are firing them - all guns at the same time.

GR142_Astro
08-16-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
Did anyone in this thread bother to bring up old LeadSpitter's .50cal desynchronisation whine? I didn't notice that one yet.

That is all what .50es need. Desynchronisation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There will be no more escaping thru shower of bullets from 6x.50cal.
From some tests I have seen, only P-40 M-105 has desynchronised M2's. All other planes are firing them - all guns at the same time.

Sooo that's the deal then!

I have always noticed the P40 M105 hits like it should, and all the other .50-cal equipped planes do much less real damage.

Also, the tracers should be much more visible. Oleg has shown he can do it with the I-16.

Badsight.
08-16-2005, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
Ah, you don't have tracks... I'm not surprised. fly a P-80

pull the trigger

there is your proof

ive had the Gotha show me its whole upper surface in a hard turn & it flew right thru the gap in my tracers @ less than 400m . the tracer gap is especially noticable in the P-80

& Ob , yes the 12 MGs of the hurri IIb are fantastic , you can "walk" them up & down the length of those Emils , mind you - for the amount of hits & debris you see , they take their time to do tha damadge