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View Full Version : Is PE-2 series DM too tough???



XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:35 PM
Hi, this is not a whine or anything close, but an inquiry for others opinions. I saw a post in SimHQ last night about how a fella had trouble downing PE-2s in a 109G2. I decided to try it and was absolutely amazed by how hard it is to down. I had recently flown a small campaign in 109F2 and frequently encountered a variety of russian bombers but almost never PE-2 type. I'm now glad I didn't see have to tangle with any now!! I was able to easily down all those other types of soviet bombers with the weak F2 guns. Why is it so hard to kill a PE-2 with the stronger cannons of the G2?? All I know is tried QMB against all variants of the PE-2 and was nearly infuriated with frustration!!! Maybe some of you other people should try it and tell me how it goes.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:35 PM
Hi, this is not a whine or anything close, but an inquiry for others opinions. I saw a post in SimHQ last night about how a fella had trouble downing PE-2s in a 109G2. I decided to try it and was absolutely amazed by how hard it is to down. I had recently flown a small campaign in 109F2 and frequently encountered a variety of russian bombers but almost never PE-2 type. I'm now glad I didn't see have to tangle with any now!! I was able to easily down all those other types of soviet bombers with the weak F2 guns. Why is it so hard to kill a PE-2 with the stronger cannons of the G2?? All I know is tried QMB against all variants of the PE-2 and was nearly infuriated with frustration!!! Maybe some of you other people should try it and tell me how it goes.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:37 PM
he can shot them down

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:02 PM
Where the outer wing meets the engine is very brittle, usually a very small ammnt of accurate cannon to this area and the wing snaps off.Its getting a good shot at it thats the hard part lol...One thing noticable is the difficulty in dammaging the engine itself, even large holes on the cowling wont even get a puff of smoke trail, seems to have no effect at all IMO

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:26 PM
Try the Sim HQ test - it's exasperating. Two Pe-2s on average or above are very difficult to take down with a 109G2. It seems to be a combination of very tough Pe-2 DM and very fragile Bf109 engine DM.

Regards,

rocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 02:31 AM
Well I did notice that I have never smoked or flamed an engine on a PE-2. Maybe this is a actual bug and there is no DM for the engines?? Seems like nothing ever happens to them. I think I have killed PE-3 engines if my disfunctional memory serves me correctly, but never PE-2 engine.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 08/28/0301:33AM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:05 AM
Aim for the engine. No point shooting at the body.

Lt.Davis

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**Speed is the KEY**

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 04:59 AM
Exactly, and that's what I was trying to say, that even if you aim for the engines, it doesn't matter since the engines seem invulnerable. You can smoke or flame any other Soviets bomber's engines, but not the PE-2. Seems to be a damage model bug....try it and see.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

michapma
08-28-2003, 08:02 AM
I chatted with a squadron mate yesterday about this very thing. I got some free time yesterday at home so I flew this mission over and over. Since Pe-2s are fast, on most passes I used the approach you're not supposed to-six o'clock level. The gunners have you covered whether you're low, high or level. When you do this it is really a contest to see whether you can get the range and hits in before they do. I think I used Average gunners.

The Pe-2 engines do have a damage model. For me they came completely off more often than they caught fire. The wings seem to be the weakest point, but I had the tail section break off more than once. I even set off the bombs on a few occasions.

It is doable! However, the 109 does get engine trouble quickly, so whatever approach you use you need to get your shots in before they have a chance to hit you.

I am going to go post a track on SimHQ.

Edit: I forgot something important: I came up on the bombers throttled back, and once I found my range, I sometimes used second-long bursts, sometimes from both cannons. The main thing is to bring down the bombers, not save ammo.

EditEdit: Here is the track: http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/tracks/G2vsPe-2_5th_try.zip My second try was also successful, but the track didn't work, so I used online tracks. It was the fifth try, several of my tries got botched because I am still learning my new stick. However, I see the point about the rear gunners being so dangerous! There are two of them, you know. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

Message Edited on 08/28/03‚ 09:04AM by michapma

Message Edited on 08/28/0309:18AM by michapma

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 08:42 AM
The last time I remember getting a good kill on a PE-2 (I think it was a PE-2) was in a Forgotten Wars mission. I wasnt supposed to engage bombers because of their evil guns, but I didnt know this at the time. I came in from six oclock in a dive, one burst at about 600kph from my dive to the left engine started it on fire quite nicely and put him outta commission. This was before the patch however, and I usually fly online so I dont encounter bombers much so I dont know how it is now.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

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michapma
08-28-2003, 08:44 AM
An FW with its armor and armament are quite different from the G2 in question. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Check out the "challenge" at SimHQ:
http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=003280;p=1

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:39 AM
Yes, I noticed the same frustrating situation. Eventually tried shooting at the thing with a 262 just to confirm it isn't immortal. It isn't.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:21 PM
They are tough but you can bring them down. Try the engines they usually fall off rather than starting to burn. One of the nice spots to hit is the tail section behind the rear gunner. If you take a look you'll see 2 big windows on each side, hit there and it will break off. 1 or 2 nice cannon shots should do it but this is not working from dead six. Btw once I managed to blow the nose off of a Pe2. looked funny, the pilots legs were hanging in the air and the complete nose was gone.

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:32 PM
The outter wing area seem to be the easiest area for me to score a kill. Attack froma high angle above or below and frie a few cannon rounds into to wing tips. I have been lucky enough to knock these wing tips off with small amounts of concentrated MG fire. It takes some getting used to and you need to get real close on order to do it but it works for me.

"Yellow-nosed b@st@rds, 6 o'clock high, coming down now!"

michapma
08-28-2003, 01:47 PM
I think the getting close is the real problem. Especially in a 109.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 02:15 PM
There doesn't seem much very vital in the rear
of the engine nacelles or the rear fuselage - so
a dead 6 o'clock approach isn't very effective.
With a few bits of armour, the rest of the plane
can be well insulated from a 6 attack. If there
is no armour, then with AP rounds you might hit
something, if the rounds carry on, but with low
energy. 20mm rounds are likely to detonate near
the surface. And I suppose at the oblique angles,
there is a chance that 30mm rounds will bounce
off and not penetrate.

On the other hand they are fast, so a beam attack
is hard to set up. I think part of the problem
is that we expect more instant successes than
were the case in WW2. In WW2 you probably pretty
much _had_ to set up a beam attack to be safe and to have
a good chance of doing damage to the target, and
against a fast target it would be hard to get the
closure right, so no doubt more attacks were fluffed
for real in WW2 than succeeded.

michapma
08-28-2003, 03:06 PM
I definitely agree that our expectations of instant success are unrealistic. If we demand realism of the sim, the sim ought to demand a realistic attitude from us. If it were as easy to shoot down aircraft as we often expect, and there was as much opportunity as we get, there would have been a whole lot more aces. Also our sense of self-preservation in the sim is all borked. But that's an individual thing.

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:20 PM
Yes it is tougher than it used to be. Also Stuka is much tougher. But I think that now they are closer to what they really were. Dive bombers always had strengthened airframe.
Problem is when you compare them with historicaly stronger planes like Ju-88 and Hs-129. You can kill Ju-88 with ease from any position, and if you fly Yaks the gunners won't even shoot at you/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Hs-129, supposedly a tough armored attack plane, fells at first MG shots, you have to be really careful not to cut it's fuselage in half on the first hits and spoil the fun.



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>



Message Edited on 08/28/0309:25AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:27 PM
Ah one mention: Both Stuka and Pe-2 have currently way to tough engines. You can poor them with MGs and most likely you'll cut the planes themselves rather than smoke the engines. This needs a fix.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:43 PM
I shot down 2 PE-2s so far. One was a lucky shot coming head-on before the turn around. I must've killed the pilot cuz it just went down. The other took the wing off just past the engine. I also notice that every single kill was taking the engine off just past the engine. The engine seems indescructable to me, and the PE-2 appears to be the hardest plane to bring down in the game. -jim-

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 04:00 PM
Try head on attacks, thats my prefered attack on bombers, it takes nerves of steel with a closing speed of frequently above 1000kph, but with a head on attack you can slow right down and drop some flap as well, then just line up send out a good burst and break, no gunner ever even has a chance to shoot back, and when your good the pilot catches a round in his teeth every time.

The head on attack is most effective when flying a machine gun totting aircraft, the more MGs the better.

Practice these attacks in a Hurri IIb with the 12 gun wing, that'll fix im.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:38 AM
Has anybody seen a PE-2 engine smoke?? Or a Pe-2 catch on fire?? If nobody replies with yes, I'm reporting it as a bug. All inline engines should be killable IMHO. Seems almost impossible with PE-2s.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

michapma
08-29-2003, 07:55 AM
I believe I've seen one catch fire, and I know I've seen the prop stop, but I don't have any tracks.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

Zayets
08-29-2003, 10:45 AM
Tried yesterday.Took an E-4 first. emptied those mg's with small effects. Cannons were better. One of them lost his wing , second one was bad hit with tons of holes in fuselage but still flying. Took aas enemy the P11 , now this one was harder. I knew that I shouldn't do turns with it , so stood away. I was also aware that his guns won't harm ... that much. Is for that I was not scared of turnfighting with it. Two burst hits its tail , big explosions , he still fly , loosing fuel. After that nothing happened , could not get in a good position to fire. I think P11 is haarder to kill than Pe2

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG