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View Full Version : Still bugs in MG151/20 shells modelling and more...



XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:56 AM
Well,
several weeks ago I posted about the fact that in game animation of shells explosion does not correspond to their type.
here is the link to the original post:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvich

Now it looks like that this has been addressed but is WRONG again...

Now EVERY MG151/20 shell produces an explosion like a MG round, but the damage it does to the target corresponds to a AP round...
I would say now fires AP-AP-HE or something like this, but the explosions visible on the target are always MG-MG-MG.

This is very annoying ... sometimes you see huge explosions in the wing switch but when you switch to externals you see the wing completely intact, since the damage effect of a MG round is simulated as an AP round

Yaks engine at last has received an accurate damage model and is vulnerable to rear gunners fire, but this has not been implemented in others aircrafts using the same M-105 engine... LaGGs are still the best bomber interceptors since their engine is invulnerable, and I've never seen a Pe-2 with dead engine while this constantly happens with other twin engined aircrafts....

Bf-109 is still the same "ONE hit in the nose -engine dead" plane, which is especially annoying when attacking bombers in campaigns.

I-16 climb rate is still somewhat overmodelled, especially when comparing it to Bf-109G6 for example...the latter has real problems outclimbing it...

Bf-109s with MG151/20 still have only about 120 rounds instead of 200, while La-5s ShVAKs have 200+ rounds instead of 170...


Overall I'm very pleased with the patch, but surprised how so many well known and acknowledged bugs (Bf-109 ammo load , P-47 roll rate) has slipped into it...

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:56 AM
Well,
several weeks ago I posted about the fact that in game animation of shells explosion does not correspond to their type.
here is the link to the original post:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvich

Now it looks like that this has been addressed but is WRONG again...

Now EVERY MG151/20 shell produces an explosion like a MG round, but the damage it does to the target corresponds to a AP round...
I would say now fires AP-AP-HE or something like this, but the explosions visible on the target are always MG-MG-MG.

This is very annoying ... sometimes you see huge explosions in the wing switch but when you switch to externals you see the wing completely intact, since the damage effect of a MG round is simulated as an AP round

Yaks engine at last has received an accurate damage model and is vulnerable to rear gunners fire, but this has not been implemented in others aircrafts using the same M-105 engine... LaGGs are still the best bomber interceptors since their engine is invulnerable, and I've never seen a Pe-2 with dead engine while this constantly happens with other twin engined aircrafts....

Bf-109 is still the same "ONE hit in the nose -engine dead" plane, which is especially annoying when attacking bombers in campaigns.

I-16 climb rate is still somewhat overmodelled, especially when comparing it to Bf-109G6 for example...the latter has real problems outclimbing it...

Bf-109s with MG151/20 still have only about 120 rounds instead of 200, while La-5s ShVAKs have 200+ rounds instead of 170...


Overall I'm very pleased with the patch, but surprised how so many well known and acknowledged bugs (Bf-109 ammo load , P-47 roll rate) has slipped into it...

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:15 AM
You have a good point one thing i have noticed alot lately is that the lag 7 is taking an awful lot of damage to bring it down last night on more than one ocation i hit lag7's with the 108 from 262 two or 2 or 3 hits and all it did was smoke it is very fustrating i hope oleg corrects these problems....

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:16 AM
bump

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:04 PM
Hi TipoMan!

I see your point, but I don't agree.



TipoMan wrote:

- Now EVERY MG151/20 shell produces an explosion like
- a MG round, but the damage it does to the target
- corresponds to a AP round...
- I would say now fires AP-AP-HE or something like
- this, but the explosions visible on the target are
- always MG-MG-MG.
-
- This is very annoying ... sometimes you see huge
- explosions in the wing switch but when you switch to
- externals you see the wing completely intact, since
- the damage effect of a MG round is simulated as an
- AP round


I've made extensive testing on the effectiveness of the MG151/20. It is now significantly better than it was before the patch.

On average, in FB 1.0 an La5 required 12 (twelve) MG151/20 hits in the engine cowling before going down. Now the number is 9. Thats a 25% increase in effectiveness. These are average numbers of over a 100 planes shot down from about 30-70 meters, hit percentages 50-70%.

Count in the hit percentages in actual online games and all that, and the effect is really really significant. The MG151/20 is now a whole new gun. I'm sure you must have noticed that when playing the game.

WW2 Luftwaffe documents mention an average 6 (six) MG151/20 Minengeschoss rounds to bring down a fighter, 20 to bring down a "Viermot" bomber.

I don't know the exact composition of the FB MG151/20 ammo belt, but I doubt there's more than 4 Minengeschoss shells in a burst of 9 rounds.



- Yaks engine at last has received an accurate damage
- model and is vulnerable to rear gunners fire, but
- this has not been implemented in others aircrafts
- using the same M-105 engine... LaGGs are still the
- best bomber interceptors since their engine is
- invulnerable, and I've never seen a Pe-2 with dead
- engine while this constantly happens with other twin
- engined aircrafts....


I've noticed some improvement in the modeling after 1.1b.

I've flown and shot at the LaGG3 (1941 and 1943 models) online. I've noticed that the engine usually stops after a few MG151/20 hits in the nose. YMMV.

The performance of the LaGG3 (1941) is not as phenomenal as it was in FB1.0, but it still seems a bit too good when compared to the WW2 flight testing made by the Finnish Air Force.



- I-16 climb rate is still somewhat overmodelled,
- especially when comparing it to Bf-109G6 for
- example...the latter has real problems outclimbing
- it...


The G6 ("early") is my main ride online, with 100% fuel and the single 30mm MK108 cannon. The 109G6 has lost some of its climb performance, but IMHO its not as dramatic as some people claim. But it should be fixed, nevertheless.



- Bf-109s with MG151/20 still have only about 120
- rounds instead of 200, while La-5s ShVAKs have 200+
- rounds instead of 170...


Where did you get these numbers? I just tested and came to the following numbers, online using ">user STAT":

The 109G2 has 150 rounds in the MG151/20 nose cannon, just like it should have. Some sources say that the 109G2 had 135 rounds in the cannon to prevent gun jams due to overloaded ammo box, most sources state 150 rounds.

The La5 (1942) has 340 rounds, thats 170 rounds per gun.



- Overall I'm very pleased with the patch, but
- surprised how so many well known and acknowledged
- bugs (Bf-109 ammo load , P-47 roll rate) has slipped
- into it...


Yep, I feel that the patch is a very good improvement over the original.

But, there are many issues left in FB to fix. If you see a possible error, please test it extensively. Find proof and references to back up your claim. Then report it, please! I'm sure Maddox Games appreciates valid testing with proof. And all the suggestions *must* be discussed in a civilized manner. That is the only way to get anything fixed or changed.


Best regards,

Camo

Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:44 PM
LLv34Camouflage wrote:
- I've made extensive testing on the effectiveness of
- the MG151/20. It is now significantly better than it
- was before the patch.

I do not question the MG151/20 effectiveness at all...

Please review my original post here:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvich

The problem is that Oleg has put a lot of effort in modelling different types of shells and now all of this work is ruined because there is an obvious error in their visualisation.

I'll explain it again for you.
Here is the visualisation of a MG hit:
http://galileo.spaceports.com/~tipoman/grab0002.jpg

Here is the WRONG visualisation of a AP hit:
http://galileo.spaceports.com/~tipoman/grab0000.jpg


According to Oleg's post MG151/20 fires:// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG.

The problem is that now EVERY MG151/20 shell hit is VISUALISED as a MG hit, while its damage sometimes corresponds to an AP shell (can be clearly seen when flying in arcade mode).
The problem is now about half of the hits are like the first one. i.e a visualization of a MG hit with WRONG damage effect upon the target (there should be many arrow which represent fragments instead of only one)

Clear now?

-- Bf-109s with MG151/20 still have only about 120
-- rounds instead of 200, while La-5s ShVAKs have 200+
-- rounds instead of 170...
-
-
- Where did you get these numbers? I just tested and
- came to the following numbers, online using ">user
- STAT":
- The La5 (1942) has 340 rounds, thats 170 rounds per
- gun.

Well , I've measured the time La-5 needs to exhaust all of its ammo. its about 20sec. With a 600rounds per minute this means it has 200 rounds per gun...then maybe ShVAK rate of fire is wrong...

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:09 PM
The ammo counts are really an issue. Also the FWs' ammo counters are wrong. I tested user STAT and it showed me 498 rounds in the FW D-9 for 20mm, although the counters just show 200 max. Seems the counts are correct now, but the counters don't show it right. The D-9 also has way too much 13mm bullets. And it's wrong that the counters show MG rounds at all. They were just for wing cannons.
On the other hand the 109 counter shows 150 rounds, although there are just 120.

But I want to add: the 151/20 well lacks some punch, but so does the ShVAK. I heard many red players whine about it, and I tried it. Killing 109 is OK, B-239, MiG and P-40, too. These aren't really tough, the 109 still is the toughest of them, but it's engine literally can't stand a windblow. Now in 1.0 and the 1.1test05/08 I saw the Hispano & B-20 doing a great job. Too bad - the B-20 got neutered in 1.1b! It feels very weak now.

very please, fix those guns. BTW the same happened to bombs and rockets. In 1.0, the Bazooka and US bombs were the only ones which seemed right. You could actually kill 4 or more tanks with a 1000lb if they were close enough. With russian or german bombs you're lucky to kill just 2 of them. I really was a bit angry to see the US ordnance got neutered and not the other's beeing corrected. I hope the next patch/addon will do something around it. There are loadout issues&errors in general, so this could be done in one package.


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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:57 PM
Another proof for your thesis is the "arcade=1" setting in the conf.ini.

If you hit a target with the MG151/20 the AP round shows only 1 arrow, the HE shows 4 and the MG shows 5
... if I recall correctly ... I have done this test in the betatest test05-test08 and reported it to the developers, but as it seems, nothing has changed there. But as it has been said, all type of ammunition shows the explosion of the MG.

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Message Edited on 08/18/0309:19PM by Atzebrueck

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 03:07 AM
short and fast ">user STAT" test gave me the following:

MG151/15 of the 109F2 has 200 rounds

MG151/20 of the 109G2 has 150 rounds (Butch2k says that it should have 200 ?!)

the two MG151/20 of a Fw190A4 have 500 rounds, so 250 each /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif - nervertheless the counter shows only 200.

MK108 of a 109G6 has 65 rounds

MK108 of a K4 and G14 has 80 rounds (thank you oleg /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) - sure , should be also "only" 65 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

we can only look forward to 1.2(b) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif


Message Edited on 08/19/0302:09AM by JG53Frankyboy