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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 04:43 PM
Anyway. Why are people having such an issue with PL? Granted it is not the most realistic thing around but it IS the most realistic setting in game. I was looking in HL last night and most servers have PL disabled. Why? Be cause if you click on FR it disables PL? And why do some server enable ext but disable PL? That makes zero sense.

Oleg scalled PL back to 3km, so there is no more radar views (ext PL is BS BTW but PL in pit is a different story). I would like to see PL range as an option in the server setting so we can cut it back even further, 1.5km is ideal I think.


So why do people hat PL?

When realism is checked than it shuts down PL.

Guys with TrackIR are looking for some edge over guys with out?

What it breaks down to is that PL is much more realistic that looking around with the stinking hat switch.

Fixes to PL:

I think that a couple of tweaks to PL would help people get over the stigma that PL = not full real.

1. Server range settings.
2. when PL breaks lock the screen should stay on where PL was instead of snapping forward again.
3. Instead if that triangle it should be a dot.
4. It should be a setting in options instead of realism, clicking FR should not disable PL.

And/Or this option:

PL should be a dot that is controled by the player (in the center or the scree or what ever. In order to lock up a aircraft (or ground object) the user should have to place the dot on or close to what ever it is that s/he is padlocking.



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<font color="red">
Cardinal
Staffel Adjudant Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"
7jg77 (http://7jg77.com)
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CO
92nd FG
92ndFG (http://92ndFG.com)
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Message Edited on 09/04/0312:01PM by Cardinal25

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 04:43 PM
Anyway. Why are people having such an issue with PL? Granted it is not the most realistic thing around but it IS the most realistic setting in game. I was looking in HL last night and most servers have PL disabled. Why? Be cause if you click on FR it disables PL? And why do some server enable ext but disable PL? That makes zero sense.

Oleg scalled PL back to 3km, so there is no more radar views (ext PL is BS BTW but PL in pit is a different story). I would like to see PL range as an option in the server setting so we can cut it back even further, 1.5km is ideal I think.


So why do people hat PL?

When realism is checked than it shuts down PL.

Guys with TrackIR are looking for some edge over guys with out?

What it breaks down to is that PL is much more realistic that looking around with the stinking hat switch.

Fixes to PL:

I think that a couple of tweaks to PL would help people get over the stigma that PL = not full real.

1. Server range settings.
2. when PL breaks lock the screen should stay on where PL was instead of snapping forward again.
3. Instead if that triangle it should be a dot.
4. It should be a setting in options instead of realism, clicking FR should not disable PL.

And/Or this option:

PL should be a dot that is controled by the player (in the center or the scree or what ever. In order to lock up a aircraft (or ground object) the user should have to place the dot on or close to what ever it is that s/he is padlocking.



<HR WIDTH=100% ALIGN=CENTER SIZE=2>
<font color="red">
Cardinal
Staffel Adjudant Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"
7jg77 (http://7jg77.com)
<font color="blue">

CO
92nd FG
92ndFG (http://92ndFG.com)
<center>http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php/)</center>

Message Edited on 09/04/0312:01PM by Cardinal25

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 04:51 PM
Padlock should be enabled on all servers. It is more realistic with it than without it. External padlock should be off (a new switch is needed).


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:22 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zwrky

Bump it. Care for it. Caress it.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:23 PM
Agree 100%

What I would love to have is the option to designate the target with the mouse in order to padlock it. This way padlock could definately not be used as a radar.

I think the anti padlock crowd is a bunch of spoiled trackIR users who want an advantage over people who don't have trackIR.

Nic

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg


Message Edited on 09/04/0306:27PM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:24 PM
Cardinal25 wrote;

"Why are people having such an issue with PL? Granted it is not the most realistic thing around but it IS the most realistic setting in game. I was looking in HL last night and most servers have PL disabled. Why? Be cause if you click on FR it disables PL? And why do some server enable ext but disable PL? That makes zero sense."

---------------


Because they suck and need something besides themselves to blaim.

Padlock makes an excellent scapegoat.

What we found out though was that it made little difference, except to those who bought a bunch of add-on equipment meant to mimick its function, to use against those that don't have the same.

In many cases they still get their cheating azzes kicked.

--------------------------------------

"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

Mark Twain

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:29 PM
So, you're saying that because I bought a Track IR device that I'm cheating?

Or only if I run a server with PL disabled?


I like padlock. Hell. I use it and I *DO* have a TrackIR.

The only benefit my TrackIR gives me, is I don't have to move my hands from my HOTAS to look all around the aircraft. I can guarantee you, and Cardinal can attest, that I crash just as often with TrackIR as I do without it. Probably more so.

You people that think, ceteris peribus (look it up), that TrackIR gives some sort of dogfighting benefit over those without it are simply too ingnorant for any sort of meaningful debate.

I'm PRO padlock, because it's a bona fide neccessity given the limitations of the computer monitor and field of vision.

I'm PRO TrackIR, becuase I don't have 3 hands to manipulate the mouse.

Padlock does for you what you would do yourself, if only you could. The hat is a good view system, but RARELY in combat.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:31 PM
I agree 100%. There is no point arguing with the PL haters who call it a cheat or consider it unfair to their 'skill' with the HAT. IMO PL is the most realistic option for SA available in flight sims. The HAT switch is very unintuitive. But hey, I'm sure I will be flamed by l337 pilots who will say I can't fly because I don't like using the HAT etc etc...

Pfft, this issue has been fought over since the inception of PL.

--

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:35 PM
yes, I agree, just lower the padlock distance to say 1.5km and allow the external f6 and shift f6 to be disabled.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:38 PM
This arguement will never end, or be solved.

People who use padlock think TrackIR is cheating.

People who use TrackIR think padlock is cheating.

People who have used padlock, and TrackIR know that it's much easier to find and track a plane with padlock.



25th_Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:38 PM
By the way...

Regarding VEF.

I truly wish that, as Cardinal indicated, Padlock could be audited and configured more than it is.

I think that VEF without padlock is a mistake.

And I do think that people with TrackIR (don't blame them, it's not their fault, you dumb asshats) have the POTENTIAL of having better SA than those that CHOOSE NOT TO USE THE MOUSE for the same SA potential.

In that light alone, padlock and TrackIR have nothing much to do with each other.

It's hard as hell, if any of you ever have used a TrackIR to track a moving target. Period. It's not the angelic solution you people think it is. It's awkward as hell to use and it take a lot of discipline and skill to use EFFECTIVELY. But given my gaming experience with it compared to my gaming experience BEFORE it, I'll choose TrackIR each and everytime.

The perfect solution is Padlock. Given the choice between Padlock and TrackIR IN A DOGFIGHT, I'll choose PADLOCK every single time.

I use TrackIR to find a target and then Padlock to ask the computer to keep my eyes on it more easily than I can, due to the technology gap between the computer screen and my eyeballs.

At the moment I engage padlock, I have to remember to DISENGAGE TrackIR, because if (when) I break lock, my "body english" will have me pointing at my twig and berries and not out the cockpit.

Man I wish you people would learn to not be so damn stubborn as to see the benefits and limitations that either/both options present.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:42 PM
tolwyn.com wrote;

"So, you're saying that because I bought a Track IR device that I'm cheating?

Or only if I run a server with PL disabled?"

-----------


You want to use TrackIR? Fine. We can't stop you, nor would we want too.

But then why do the same to us by disabling padlock(which is available to all in the game) if you're not looking for advantages?

Advantages that, I might add, that don't come on the game CD. In other sims we call that cheating.





--------------------------------------

"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

Mark Twain



Message Edited on 09/04/0312:43PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:48 PM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- So, you're saying that because I bought a Track IR
- device that I'm cheating?

Nope I'm not saying that, but I believe that some people using trackIR want complain about padlock in order to keep an advantage in the detection business. Track IR does give an advantage, (I don't call cheating, a better vid card or a bigger screen also gives an advantage after all, so do more memory, a cougar and so on...)... I think it's quite cynical to refuse padlock because they know they have an advantage over the rest if they don't use padlock.

I didn't say all trackIR users behaved like that or cheated. But I think some don't like padlock because they have TrackIR. Still that's only my opinion.

Wouldn't it be pretty ironic if I criticised trackIR while at the same time whining that people criticize padlock? lol

Nic

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg


Message Edited on 09/04/0306:49PM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:50 PM
JG,

With your thinking. Anybody using a joystick is cheating over the people using the keyboard? How about a HOSTAS? A fast system? A big monitor? How about being young with good eyes and reflexes? All cheats?

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:55 PM
I've tried it with and without padlock, and I have to say. . .I prefer it without. I never thought I would feel that way about it, especially since I fly one of the blinder planes (109). But for some reason I like no PL.

At least that way one can sneak past the enemy by flying very low to the ground and hoping the cammo will blend in...



<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:56 PM
- tolwyn.com wrote:
-- So, you're saying that because I bought a Track IR
-- device that I'm cheating?


Definitely if you don't allow padlock on your server. You want to gain an advantage.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:59 PM
Buzz wrote;

"JG,

With your thinking. Anybody using a joystick is cheating over the people using the keyboard? How about a HOSTAS? A fast system? A big monitor? How about being young with good eyes and reflexes? All cheats?

25th_Buzz"

--------

Of course not.

Padlock is a different circumstance entirely.

This is common sense.

Surely everyone knows joysticks are standard parts of the game. Additional visual aids that mimick padlocks function are not.

The difference being is padlock is included for all on the CD, and is software.

You bring additional hardware to the game fine and dandy, feel free to use it. But don't disable legitimate parts of the game to use it to cheat against those that don't have it. And then state for public consumption the game is snap view only, as this is more realistic. The tactic(it's more realistic) was used in other sims to cheat, alter air files etc..... Some actually believe it's more realistic when they win only or can alter the game to favor their hardware setup over others. This is cheating plain and simple.

Clearly mark the game and there is no problem. Currently this is not the case.




--------------------------------------

"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

Mark Twain


Message Edited on 09/04/0301:06PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:01 PM
I keep padlock on my server, limited to 2km. Just a matter of fairness...cause i do own trackIR and for couple of other reasons

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:03 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- What I would love to have is the option to designate
- the target with the mouse in order to padlock it.
- This way padlock could definately not be used as a
- radar.

Hey, that would work!

I think it should also work for any plane partially in your gunsight (autoselecting the closest).

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:22 PM
Excellent posts all! Totally agree with T's assessment on the advantages of both TIR and PL - I don't think either is
'cheating'. Like Card I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of available padlock in a lot of servers.

Barfly
Executive Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:27 PM
i think padlock sucks. ill continue thinking padlock sucks untill you can no longer tap a key and once in range lock on a bandit you wouldnt have seen, choosing the way hes maneuvering for that very reason. as far as tir doing something more than whats on cd thats not right. move your mouse around next time your in a game JG. Tadaaaaa, trackir. if you want to learn how to move a trackball with your throttle little finger, or use a thumbstick on a throttle thats super. i learned to move the mouse by moving my head. their all different methods to do the same thing.

now, having said that. i really dont care if padlock is available on servers or not. i dont look at that setting when im chosing a server. maybe if i lone wolfed it it would matter more, but since i rarely fly without my wingman it doesnt really matter. you cant padlock both of us at the same time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:30 PM
PBS_DangerMouse wrote:
- i think padlock sucks. ill continue thinking
- padlock sucks untill you can no longer tap a key and
- once in range lock on a bandit you wouldnt have
- seen, choosing the way hes maneuvering for that very
- reason. as far as tir doing something more than
- whats on cd thats not right. move your mouse around
- next time your in a game JG. Tadaaaaa, trackir. if
- you want to learn how to move a trackball with your
- throttle little finger, or use a thumbstick on a
- throttle thats super. i learned to move the mouse
- by moving my head. their all different methods to
- do the same thing.


If you lock with padlock a target that you didn't already see, then you suck, buddy.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:33 PM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- So, you're saying that because I bought a Track IR
- device that I'm cheating?
-
- Or only if I run a server with PL disabled?
-
-
- I like padlock. Hell. I use it and I *DO* have a
- TrackIR.
-
- The only benefit my TrackIR gives me, is I don't
- have to move my hands from my HOTAS to look all
- around the aircraft.

= a large benefit.

I can guarantee you, and
- Cardinal can attest, that I crash just as often with
- TrackIR as I do without it. Probably more so.
-
- You people that think, ceteris peribus (look it up),
- that TrackIR gives some sort of dogfighting benefit
- over those without it are simply too ingnorant for
- any sort of meaningful debate.

TrackIR does give a benefit from those without it. Allows smooth panning in any direction without having to remove one's hand from the stick onto the mouse.

-
- I'm PRO padlock, because it's a bona fide neccessity
- given the limitations of the computer monitor and
- field of vision.
-
- I'm PRO TrackIR, becuase I don't have 3 hands to
- manipulate the mouse.
-
- Padlock does for you what you would do yourself, if
- only you could.

padlock is the closest thing to a trackir the game has. padlock should always be enabled to level the playing field against those with trackir.

The hat is a good view system, but
- RARELY in combat.

Are you serious? combat is the best time to use the hat... or do you only chase what's right in fron tof you?

-
-



CPS_Dragonaire
http://il2_cps.tripod.com

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:36 PM
I really don't see how padlock is any different than no cockpit, icons, externals, unlimited ammo etc.

Sure it's on the CD, and available to all, but it's an aid. It's put there to make it easier. TrackIR is no different than using your mouse. You still need to find the target with your own eyes, and track it. It's very easy to lose a plane using TrackIR. To be honest, when I switched from using the mouse to TrackIR. It didn't make me one bit better. Padlock will make me much better.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:39 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I really don't see how padlock is any different than
- no cockpit, icons, externals, unlimited ammo etc.


Buzz, when you are driving, do you use your hands to move your head?


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:39 PM
LMAO FW

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:44 PM
Huck,

I'm not saying TrackIR isn't easier than using a mouse. I'm saying it's no more effective. It's not an aid like padlock is.

There was a track of a guy using a track ball mouse mounted on his joystick. It was more effective than any TrackIR track i've seen.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:50 PM
- If you lock with padlock a target that you didn't
- already see, then you suck, buddy.


lotta people must suck then, buddy. cuz im sure thats how some use it.

if push came to shove i could turn off my tir and go back to using the thumb stick on my cougar to pan my views. they do the same thing. i personally enjoy using the tir more but get the same results with either.

the question was, did it bother me that some guy will start a server without padlock because he has tir. my answer was it doesnt matter to me. i have tir or the mouse at my disposal and i never use padlock. however, if someone does restrict it so that they have an advantage thats pretty cheesy imo.

you got my thoughts on how padlock sucks because im grumpy and just woke up. dont you feel lucky?

http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:53 PM
PL was foolish even when I used it in 1990s.

I used hat switch pan view in IL-2. no problem. Good at combat thou thumb was hard. At that time, I thought PL was foolish.

I use TrackIR now. wonderful. Now, I STILL think PL is foolish.

I don't care whether you use padlock or not. (either way you're mine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif as long as you don't know how to search and track enemy.)
Moreover, it can't be a cheat. Wasn't cheat is to make you better? But It just make you dumber, worse.
It doesn't give you convenience or advantage as you might think. (I'm putting aside realism problems)

Wake up, it's 2003. If you have enough budget, go for TrackIR. If not, use your hat on your stick.

Why you bother.. and even fight? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:54 PM
Your always grumpy Mouse../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:56 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Huck,
-
- I'm not saying TrackIR isn't easier than using a
- mouse. I'm saying it's no more effective. It's not
- an aid like padlock is.
-
-
- There was a track of a guy using a track ball mouse
- mounted on his joystick. It was more effective than
- any TrackIR track i've seen.
-
-
yea exactly. its a fricking mouse on your head. it doesnt give you super human dogfighting abilities. or more situational awareness. i had just as much sa way back when i used the hatswitch. only difference is now my thumb doesnt hurt after flying


http://avg-pbs.freewebspace.com/pbssig1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 06:59 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I really don't see how padlock is any different than
- no cockpit, icons, externals, unlimited ammo etc.
-
- Sure it's on the CD, and available to all, but it's
- an aid. It's put there to make it easier.

Buzz, you are way off. "Easier"? Try more realistic. Having PL on is NOTHING like icons, ext, or unlimited ammo. PL should be an option but it should be enabled if FR is checked. It mimics (the best we know how, software wise) the heads movement and ability to track a target. The range has been cut down enough so that the target needs to be close enough to see and be on the screen to lock it up.

I don't mind the people that do use it but don't care about others who do. This is more pointed at people who go out of their way to disable it.

I will not fly with out PL, it is just too unrealistic.

BTW: I have no problem sneaking up on guys in PL servers. Why do other people? If you get caught trying to sneak up you assume that PL is to blame?

<HR WIDTH=100% ALIGN=CENTER SIZE=2>
<font color="red">
Cardinal
Staffel Adjudant Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"
7jg77 (http://7jg77.com)
<font color="blue">

CO
92nd FG
92ndFG (http://92ndFG.com)
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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:00 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Huck,
-
- I'm not saying TrackIR isn't easier than using a
- mouse. I'm saying it's no more effective. It's not
- an aid like padlock is.


Head movements of real pilots are not voluntary, they do not say "I move my head a little bit to the left, now a bit to the right, and if I keep my head fixed a second it will be fine". No, pilots think at the target but the head movements are not conscient. TIR does not mimick this, TIR is just a mouse moved with the head. I fail to see what's realistic here.

SA is fundamental in air combat. The already restricted view in flight sims coupled with the inability to naturally follow the enemy planes drastically cut SA. Padlock is an aid to regain the capacity to follow the target without thinking of following it. It's much more realistic than any other mouse coupled view movement.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:05 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- I will not fly with out PL, it is just too
- unrealistic.


Definitely, flying without padlock is less realistic.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:08 PM
Even Oleg thinks padlock should be part of full real. In this game, you've got a pilot with one eye (solid cockpit bars) restricted field of view (monitor) and most people using a hat switch to look around. And some people have the gall to complain about something that locks onto things in view, and then unlocks when they go out of view.

People get too hung up on "full real". They really don't give a rat's *** about what the best settings really are, as long as there is a little button they can push that means "everything is full real" they don't know much otherwise.

Then there are people who have never even re-assigned padlock to the top of the joystick, where it belongs (padlock enemy, padlock next). These people tried padlock but since having it on the keyboard sucks they think padlock sucks because they never could use it right.

Then you have the people who can't fly very well so they want padlock turned off because they can't use it well and don't want others using it on them. These people like to play in full real servers where the action is slow and there is alot of hiding possible. This way they don't get shot down alot and can come to the forum and say they play full real so they must be better than anyone who plays other settings.

"Full real" and "easy" settings have alot in common. They are both extreme perversions of how the game should be played.

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:09 PM
Huck,

The idea of padlock isn't bad. the problem is it works too good. It tracks the plane where your normal vision would have lost it. Use mouse/TrackIR to see the difference. Doing slow scissors with padlock is a good example of it working too good. Try it with your mouse to see how much harder it is. With padlock your never bothered by the cockpit framing, or the fuselage for that matter. With padlock you can see straight behind you. You never ever lose the target. It's not realistic. Even if padlock didn't find the target for you. The way it stays locked on a target is nothing like what you can do with your own eyes.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:17 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Huck,
-
- The idea of padlock isn't bad. the problem is it
- works too good. It tracks the plane where your
- normal vision would have lost it. Use mouse/TrackIR
- to see the difference. Doing slow scissors with
- padlock is a good example of it working too good.
- Try it with your mouse to see how much harder it is.
- With padlock your never bothered by the cockpit
- framing, or the fuselage for that matter. With
- padlock you can see straight behind you. You never
- ever lose the target. It's not realistic. Even if
- padlock didn't find the target for you. The way it
- stays locked on a target is nothing like what you
- can do with your own eyes.

Buzz, have you ever actually used PL? You cannot see behind you and if a target says behind a cloud or frame of the pit for more than a second, it breaks the lock.

TrackIR does let you see directly behind you (so they say), not PL.

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:18 PM
When's the last time you tried padlock Buzz?

You seem to think it can see through the cockpit and things outside of normal view. When something moves under the cockpit or behind a bar, padlock follows it for only a few seconds, to simulate what a real pilot would know intuitively. When something locked goes under your nose, you have a few seconds to get it back into your direct view or the lock is lost.

Padlock will not lock stuff you can't see (not unless you are in zoom view and hitting padlcok next..then it locks stuff you could see in regular view)

They've done a pretty good job with padlock. Too bad there aren't parameters that the host can adjust:

1. lock range
2. id range
3. stickyness

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:18 PM
Cockpit framing was not a real problem in real life, like it is in FB. And if a padlocked plane goes below you then if you don't roll or put the nose down you'll loose the lock immediatelly.

I think you are confusing virtual pilots abilities with restricted view with those of real pilots in real planes. Who cares that with TIR are harder than with padlock? That does not mean that scissors with TIR are more realistic. Scissors were very much doable in real life, Buzz.


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:30 PM
I think only at targets during combat, not TIR.

Huck, Are you using it actually?

So now, PL is more realistic than TIR? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I think you've gone too far. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
TIR can't be real I admit. But that's our best solution for now. If not satisfied, make custom-HMD or buy a real WWII plane. JUST Plz DON'T argue PL is more realistic. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
- Head movements of real pilots are not voluntary,
- they do not say "I move my head a little bit to the
- left, now a bit to the right, and if I keep my head
- fixed a second it will be fine". No, pilots think at
- the target but the head movements are not conscient.
- TIR does not mimick this, TIR is just a mouse moved
- with the head. I fail to see what's realistic here.
-
- SA is fundamental in air combat. The already
- restricted view in flight sims coupled with the
- inability to naturally follow the enemy planes
- drastically cut SA. Padlock is an aid to regain the
- capacity to follow the target without thinking of
- following it. It's much more realistic than any
- other mouse coupled view movement.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:32 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- Anyway. Why are people having such an issue with PL?

Because.

- Granted it is not the most realistic thing around
- but it IS the most realistic setting in game.

Cake and eat it too?

- I was looking in HL last night and most servers
- have PL disabled. Why?

Because.

- Be cause if you click on FR it disables PL?

Exactally.. as it should.

- And why do some server enable ext but
- disable PL? That makes zero sense.

Agreed.

- Oleg scalled PL back to 3km, so there is no more
- radar views

See... you just answered your own question. In that even scaled back it still does the SA work for you.. THAT is just ONE of the things that makes it un-realistic.

- (ext PL is BS BTW but PL in pit is a
- different story).

Agreed.

- I would like to see PL range as an option in
- the server setting so we can cut it back
- even further, 1.5km is ideal I think.

Why? I mean if it is so realistic.. why cut it back? See, even you understand what it is about padlock that makes it unrealistic.. In that even you want to cut it back to make it more realistic.. In that now it is a crutch with regards to SA.. YOU REALLY DONT HAVE TO LOOK!! Just point and click and let PADLOCK find the bogie. That along is a good enough reason to remove padlock from full real settings.. And that is just ONE of the problems with padlock.. We have not even touched on the other unrealistci issues... ie maintains lock in clouds.. matians lock behind cockpit, wings, etc.. All good reasons to remove it from full realistic servers.

- So why do people hat PL?

You know why, you listed it above.

- When realism is checked than it shuts down PL.

Exactally! As it should!

- Guys with TrackIR are looking for some edge over
- guys with out?

Nope, in that guys with TrackIR have to STILL APPLY GOOD SA just like guys that use the HAT... TrackIR does not lock onto the target and put a big bright BOX around it too that makes it easier to see the bogie at tree top level.

- What it breaks down to is that PL is much more
- realistic that looking around with the stinking hat
- switch.

Disagree 100%! To be clear, it is not the looking around part that makes it unrealistic, it is the FIND THE BOGIE and LOCKING ONTO it that makes it unrealstic.

- Fixes to PL:

Ah... Good at least you realise it is BROKE! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I think that a couple of tweaks to PL would help
- people get over the stigma that PL = not full real.

It would help to make it more accetable, but calling it a stigma does not make it so. Oleg and the rest of us realise taht padlock is not full real, in that it does one of the hardest jobs for you.. SA! Which is most likly the reason they have it disable PL when you sellect FULL REAL.

- 1. Server range settings.

That would make it more accetable.

- 2. when PL breaks lock the screen should stay on
- where PL was instead of snapping forward again.

Enh.. I dont think that is an issue.

- 3. Instead if that triangle it should be a dot.

It should be nothing.

- 4. It should be a setting in options instead of
- realism, clicking FR should not disable PL.

Disagree 100%! And I thank god that the makers of IL2 feel the same!!

- And/Or this option:
-
- PL should be a dot that is controled by the player
- (in the center or the scree or what ever. In order
- to lock up a aircraft (or ground object) the user
- should have to place the dot on or close to what
- ever it is that s/he is padlocking.

That would make it more accetable.

But the real problem I have with padlock is how it FINDS the bogies for you... Not the ones that are above you with the bright blue sky outlining thier dark aircraft.. The ones that are below you where the ground cluter can hide them.. Without PL it forces you to fly more REALISTICLY, in that you have to manuver your aircraft around and check the country side looking for bogies.. Where as with padlock.. you just HAT the view around, press the key and WA-LA I have found the bogie!!! That little aspect about padlock is what makes it un-realistic!! And that little aspect changes the way you HAVE to fly and perform SA, thus making the whole feel unrealistic.



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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:33 PM
I use to use padlock all the time. I thought it was great. Then I realized the computer was doing all the work for me. I never lost a plane when I used padlock. It started feeling too arcade for me, and I stopped using it. I went to my mini joystick on the throttle. It was much much harder, but at least I felt like I was doing all the work. I finally got TrackIR, and it was easier to use than the mini stick, but no more effective. I lose planes all the time with TrackIR. The main reason I like TrackIR is it's easy to read the gauges. I can hit the zoom button, read the gauge real fast, and then zoom back out. It's too blurry for me to do it any other way. The mini stick was never accurate enough to do this effectively.

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Message Edited on 09/04/0311:34AM by BuzzU

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:39 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- I think only at targets during combat, not TIR.
-
- Huck, Are you using it actually?


No, I looked at that demo video on TIR site which scared me to death. Why develop a skill that makes someone look like he needs psychiatric care?


- JUST Plz DON'T argue PL
- is more realistic.

Why shouldn't I do it? PL IS more realistic than TIR. But the main problem is why would someone retrict the use of padlock? I haven't got any answer to that yet, beside the fact that they bough TIR and want to use it with an advantage (you kmow justifty the costs/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ).


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:42 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I use to use padlock all the time. I thought it was
- great. Then I realized the computer was doing all
- the work for me. I never lost a plane when I used
- padlock. It started feeling too arcade for me, and I
- stopped using it. I went to my mini joystick on the
- throttle. It was much much harder, but at least I
- felt like I was doing all the work. I finally got
- TrackIR, and it was easier to use than the mini
- stick, but no more effective. I lose planes all the
- time with TrackIR. The main reason I like TrackIR is
- it's easy to read the gauges. I can hit the zoom
- button, read the gauge real fast, and then zoom back
- out. It's too blurry for me to do it any other way.
- The mini stick was never accurate enough to do this
- effectively.


You suddlenly felt the arcade feeling because you're a ww2 veteran pilot?


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:53 PM
Neck move in demo was funny and unnatural, I agree. (And I didn't like that guy. he's like..uh.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )
I thought exactly like you. So I kept using hat switch.

But one day my squad mate Juno gave it to me as a present because I fixed his 2 PCs. (and he was so much in love with TIR and I didn't like that much. Maybe he wanted to prove TIR. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

When I got it and made my custom marker, all things changed.
Actually there's completely NO neck or eye problem.
(It just make my neck more freshier. I don't feel fatigue and eye strain easily cause I move my neck and eye to proper degree. )
It's just so natural that you forgot you are using TIR in 30 sec.

Grrr.. I just want to buy you one. (But I think you are too far from us. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )



Second, I know you are talking about Admins who locked PL in their server. But someone started to insist PL is more realistic than any other. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 07:58 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- Second, I know you are talking about Admins who
- locked PL in their server. But someone started to
- insist PL is more realistic than any other.


Indeed my problem is with admins that block PL. Otherways everybody is free to use it (and of course think that is more realistic than PL/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ).





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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:09 PM
I think that 3km is reasonable; however, I would go to 1.5 if PL we on if you pressed the FR button.

SA is not just knowing where one bandit is. True SA, which PL has very little to do with is knowing the over all situation in the area. Maybe that is why you get shot up a lot.



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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 08:25 PM
i like PL but i think that it needs some tweaks.
First: it should be a little smarter. The 3D engine knows if you can see a target or not. So if you cant see it, the game should not allow you to to padlock it. IE: clouds, reduced visibility because of weather, etc.
second: no triangle is necessary. i want to keep my head on the target i dont want a triangle telling me "hey THIS is you target" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not sure about ground targets, its possible that with ground targets the triangle is actually more realistic. I mean i can see trough my window way better than trought my monitor... maybe my window has better resolution LOL so far PCs cant simulate a real view so is kinda hard to see a target at 3000 meters not because the distance in itself but because of the technology used to emulate your view. anyway... im not sure about this.
third padlock should never return to the center.

forgive my crappy english

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:19 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- No, I looked at that demo video on TIR site which
- scared me to death. Why develop a skill that makes
- someone look like he needs psychiatric care?

Nice try... but no sale.

- Why shouldn't I do it?

Because, The point was your commenting on something you have no clue about, in that you have never even used it There for your not as qualified to pass judgment on it. Unlike the users of TrakIR, who have tried both TrackIR and padlock.

- PL IS more realistic than TIR.

Huh? So, let me see if I got this straight.. Somthing that finds the targets for you is more realistic then finding them yourself? Ok.. anyone that buys that.. P L E A S E email me, in that I have this bridge for sale that you might also be interested in!

- But the main problem is why would someone
- retrict the use of padlock?

For the same reason the developers of IL2 disable PL when you select full real.

- I haven't got any answer to that yet,

None that your bias would allow you to comprehend.

- beside the fact that they bough TIR and
- want to use it with an advantage (you kmow justifty
- the costs

LOL! Clueless to the end! So.. changing the view via HAT,MOUSE,MOUSE JS on THROTTLE, or TrackIR where you have to SPOT the target is less realistic then something that finds the target even when you cant see it? Sorry.. no sale!! And we have not even begun to talk about the other aspects about padlock that are unreal.. You know the brightly colored BOX it puts around a target when you lock onto it.. You dont get that with TrackIR, HAT, or MOUSE. Or the way padlock can maintain a track when inside a cloud.. ie you can shoot at something that you cant see.. You dont get that with TrackIR, HAT or MOUSE.

But, keep banging that drum... maybe if you say it enough it will come true for you and the other Quake crowd.. But for the folks in the know we see right through you argument!

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:24 PM
Just learn to fly without it - you'll learn eventually, we all go through the learning curve and come out happy.



Speed up your snap views - that helps.

I don't dislike padlock, but think a 1.5m range would be good

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:36 PM
Huck said:

"You suddlenly felt the arcade feeling because you're a ww2 veteran pilot?"



That's pretty dumb statement. Of course i'm not a WW2 pilot. To to say padlock is realistic, are you?

FB is a game. That's what I do, and you do too. We play video games. It's pretty easy to tell when the computer is helping you. If you don't have a clue what that feels like. Here's a tip. Use padlock.



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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:52 PM
Ill tell you why......

In non full real servers

IE: pitopen/externals

Dogfights are alot more fun and its easier to shake a bandit or force him to overshoot in a Horizontal or Rolling sissors manuvers with padlock on its much much harder to shake the bandit

the remedy is simple use the views on a hatswitch & move yer head Now in full reality servers I think Padlock should be On maybe no icons but definataly padlock inabled


thats only my prefrance tho

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:29 AM
Hello all,


As always I vote yay for padlock. Padlock used with in combination with the hatswitch and one button on the base of the stick works superbly for me. I have gone into combat and held my own against any and all.


I have track IR with the latest drivers and I do not see any advantage over anything with it. It takes frequent recentering, and I still do not like to turn my head away from the freakin monitor when i am trying to see something on the monitor. If you set it fast enough so U don't have to move your head far then it is too sensitive for good control.


I think the guys who are stuck on track IR are the ones that never got good with padlock. It is better with the latest drivers than it was with the old drivers on the disk that came with it for sure. But no one ever has to be afraid to go up against track IR if they are used to and good with another method.

There are servers for any taste on the world wide web. The hosts pick what they want and that is their right. They set it up so it is fun for them. Everyones tastes are different. It is true that padlock servers are hard to find on HL sometimes. Tough luck. I like padlock servers and I have my strong opinion of those who are afraid of it.

A lot of guys practice on servers without padlock because there are online wars and competitions that they are in that are set up that way. Other than that they don't have a beef with it.

It is only my opinion, that the track IR guys that never could use padlock and don't really know what the heII it is that are afraid of it and cry about it. All one has to do is get rid of the icons in the server and the padlock cannot distinguish between friend and foe, and with it limited to 3k it offers no advantage that is worth crying about. The ones that fear padlock are like the morons that hung poeple as witches in medieval times. They didn't understand it, feared it, and cried about it.


Like they will say. Just find or start up a server that is as you wish it to be. Start a movement. Run a server with padlock. I will be there.

Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:01 AM
my god , RBJ summed up Padlock so well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

btw .... PL IS MORE REAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you guys need to try it to see its not uber but is realistic

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:27 AM
Guys crack me up when they say guys who don't like padlock, because they are no good with it. When the real reason is they realize it makes it too easy.

Why anybody would think padlock is hard to use is beyond me. You let the computer track the plane for you, and you just follow it around. Wow! That's real hard../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:52 AM
Jumoschwanz wrote:
-
-
- Hello all,

Hey Jumoschwanz!


- As always I vote yay for padlock.

Dont feel bad, people voted for Gov Davis once too!

- Padlock used with in combination with the hatswitch
- and one button on the base of the stick works
- superbly for me. I have gone into combat and held my
- own against any and all.

Yup padlock does provide an SA edge.

- I have track IR with the latest drivers and I
- do not see any advantage over anything with it.

Agreed, if anything padlock has the advantages.. Finds the bogie even when you cant see it, puts a nice little bright box around it, Enables you to track it threw clouds.. etc.

- It takes frequent recentering,

PAY ATT HERE!!! I MADE THE SAME MISTAKE YOU ARE NOW MAKING!! UNTIL THE TRACKIR GOD HERE SET ME STRAIGHT. THE FACT THAT YOU SAID IT "TAKES FREQUENT RECENTERING" IS PROOF THAT YOU ARE *NOT* USING "TRACKIR ENHANCED MODE" AND ARE STILL USING "MOUSE EMULATION MODE"!! THAT IS THE WRONG THING TO DO IN IL2!! IL2 SUPPORTS "ENHANCED MODE" AND WHEN YOU USE IT, IT DOES NOT NEED BUT ONE CENTERING!! HERE IS HOW TO USE IT.

1) start IL2 FB
2) once your in the game, toggle the "F8" key, it switces between MOUSE EMULATION and ENHANCED MODE.. You will know your in ENHANCED MODE with the view goes NUTS.. But dont panic, simply look forwad.. as you would if looking forward in the game, then toggle the F12 key ONCE.. that will center the ENHANCED MODE


- and I still do not like to turn my head away from
- the freakin monitor when i am trying to see
- something on the monitor. If you set it fast
- enough so U don't have to move your head
- far then it is too sensitive for good control.

Not ture in ENHANCED MODE!!

- I think the guys who are stuck on track IR
- are the ones that never got good with padlock.

Doubt it, in that based on my experance with padlocks.. I fisrts started useing padlocks back in the Falcon 3.0 days, then when PAW 1942 came out, I really fell in love with padlock and I have used padlock in ever game sense.. until TrackIR came out.. TrackIR is just more realistic looking and feeling.

- It is better with the latest drivers than it was with
- the old drivers on the disk that came with it for sure.

Agreed

- But no one ever has to be afraid to go up against
- track IR if they are used to and good with another
- method.

Agreed TrackIR, HATS, MOUSE, etc where you have to do the work provides no unrealistic advantages like padlock does.

- There are servers for any taste on the world
- wide web. The hosts pick what they want and that is
- their right.
- They set it up so it is fun for them.
- Everyones tastes are different.

Agreed

- It is true that
- padlock servers are hard to find on HL sometimes.
- Tough luck. I like padlock servers and I have my
- strong opinion of those who are afraid of it.

No one is afraid of it, they just perfer realistic tatics, and the use of padlock removes the need for someone to fly realiticly, in that the hardest part of a dog fight is done for them.. ie find the enmy. Keep in mind that statment is based on the fact that most who disable padlock also disable icons or limit their range grately.

- A lot of guys practice on servers without
- padlock because there are online wars and
- competitions that they are in that are set up that
- way.

Roger, even the comptition people know that it is more realistic.

- Other than that they don't have a beef with it.

I cant take it or leave it.. in that most servers are gamie anyways.. but there is nothing like a realistic server with icons and padlock off where you not only have to find them, but id them too.. IT DOES NOT GET BETTER THAN THAT.. where better = realisic

- It is only my opinion, that the track IR
- guys that never could use padlock and don't really
- know what the heII it is that are afraid of it and
- cry about it.

Nope, you are totally wrong about that! Most of the guys who shell out the $ for TrackIR are real sim buffs.. and typically those are the types that perfer realisim over quake like servers.

- All one has to do is get rid of the
- icons in the server and the padlock cannot
- distinguish between friend and foe, and with it
- limited to 3k it offers no advantage that is worth
- crying about.

Diagree, it still finds things even when you cant see them, for example when a green ac dives for the deck over a bunch of trees.. you cant see it well with TrackIR, HATS, MOUSE, etc.. but with PADLOCK you dont have to see it, just press the padlock button in the general area and WA-LA you not only have it locked up, but it is tracking it and puts a big ol shinny target box around it.. Now if you dont think that is an advantage, then you dont understand, which explains alot! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- The ones that fear padlock are like
- the morons that hung poeple as witches in medieval
- times. They didn't understand it, feared it, and
- cried about it.

LOL! Nice try.. but NO SALE! Your wrong dude, plan and simple!

- Like they will say. Just find or start up a
- server that is as you wish it to be. Start a
- movement. Run a server with padlock. I will be
- there.

Sadly.. us old school hard core types are hard to come by, so even we need to enable padlock sometimes just to have some noobs to shoot down! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:07 AM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- I think that 3km is reasonable;

And some dont.

- however, I would go to 1.5 if PL we on if
- you pressed the FR button.

So.

- SA is not just knowing where one bandit is. True SA,
- which PL has very little to do with is knowing the
- over all situation in the area.

Ding! Now you catching on.

- Maybe that is why you get shot up a lot.

Huh? Dang.. and you where so close to understanding.. Well go back and read my orginal post to you, and read it this time and try to argue with anything I said in it.. you did want to argue about padlock right? Or are you just a troll that wants to just argue?



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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:59 PM
AMEN brother!!!!!! I 've been posting the same exact thing for months now, but most of these hosts just dont get it. Or they dont have a good sense of situational awareness and want to take tha advantage of that freom anyone who can fly with it. Personnally when try to fly without it I get disoriented as Im having to flail my head around constantly while fumbling with a dam Hat switch and firing guns at the same time.....STUPID!! If 90% of these guys had any actualy fighetr experienc(I do....4 years Navy) they would soon realise that although it could use a few minor adjustments padlock is by far a much more realistic setting and offers a smotther flight experience. And if you still dont agree then DON"T frickin use it!!!! But dont ban it from your games as it should be pilots choice! I was avoiding spending the money but now Im gonna get a Track-Ir as these idiot hoost just dont get it..

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:25 PM
Buzz if you had a clue you would be dangerous. We/re not saying that Padlock is perfect! What we are saying is that it allows for a smoother flight feel the constanlty jerking your head aropund with a hat switch. some guys might be good at that but a lot of us aren't. and don't talk to me about practice as I was an actual Navy pilot(88-92) and flew in combat(Desert Storm) and I can assure you that PL even with its faults which I would like to see corrected offers the best option for those of us who don't want to buy all these extra gidgets and gadgets in order to play against those who buy them and then limit the settings against those who might not. Also if you fly padlock with no icons and limit the range I think offers a more realistic flight envelope(still not perfect) but lets face it guys....It's still a dam video game!!!!! Most of you who think this is anything like REAL Combat Flying had best get a quarter and go buy a clue as it AINT!!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:28 PM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- Just learn to fly without it - you'll learn
- eventually, we all go through the learning curve and
- come out happy.

It is not a matter of "not knowing how to fly with out it" it is a matter of preference.

<HR WIDTH=100% ALIGN=CENTER SIZE=2>
<font color="red">
Cardinal
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7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"
7jg77 (http://7jg77.com)
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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:34 PM
tagert wrote:
- Cardinal25 wrote:
-- I think that 3km is reasonable;
-
- And some dont.
-
-- however, I would go to 1.5 if PL we on if
-- you pressed the FR button.
-
- So.
-
-- SA is not just knowing where one bandit is. True SA,
-- which PL has very little to do with is knowing the
-- over all situation in the area.
-
- Ding! Now you catching on.
-
-- Maybe that is why you get shot up a lot.
-
- Huh? Dang.. and you where so close to
- understanding.. Well go back and read my orginal
- post to you, and read it this time and try to argue
- with anything I said in it.. you did want to argue
- about padlock right? Or are you just a troll that
- wants to just argue?

You need a lesson in debate. Nothing in any of my posts is unreasonable. The diversionary troll comment shows you are weak. I also do not appreciate that you seem to think you are enlightened in some way over pro-PL guys.

You most defiantly are not.


PL is more realistic than the hat switch. You cannot debate that.

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Cardinal
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7jg77 (http://7jg77.com)
<font color="blue">

CO
92nd FG
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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:36 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:

- "Easier"? Try more realistic.
- Having PL on is NOTHING like icons, ext, or
- unlimited ammo. PL should be an option but it should
- be enabled if FR is checked. It mimics (the best we
- know how, software wise) the heads movement and
- ability to track a target.

Well said - very reasonable.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:41 PM
Nitty-Gritty

I think it's you who doesn't have a clue fighter jock. For all the reasons explained in this thread.

Both sides of this has an arguement. I already said it was a game. Did you read any of my posts? Just tell your side without getting personal.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:44 PM
James_Gang wrote:

- But then why do the same to us by disabling
- padlock(which is available to all in the game) if
- you're not looking for advantages?

Earth to Asshat:

<div align="center" style="background:yellow;color:black;">
Blaming TrackIR isn't the issue. Blame the STUPID SERVER HOST that has PL disabled. I agree with you 100% that a Host, having TrackIR and disabling PL to give himself an advantage is a JERK. But TrackIR isn't the culprit. It's the jerk.
</div>

Say it with me; choose a melody and sing:

TrackIR isn't the enemy
The dork that disables PL to gain advantage is the enemy

TrackIR isn't the enemy
The dork that disables PL to gain advantage is the enemy

TrackIR isn't the enemy
The dork that disables PL to gain advantage is the enemy

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:53 PM
I guess I'm still confused.
And I'm going to PLAY devils advocate, okay?
nicolas10 - I know you're not saying me personally. That's the point. It's the quality of the individual that we all have to question when we join a server with PL disabled. I mean, who's really to blame? Did they make you click JOIN? No... Anyhoo...


nicolas10 wrote:
- Nope I'm not saying that, but I believe that some
- people using trackIR want complain about padlock in
- order to keep an advantage in the detection
- business.

I agree with you in whole; but don't forget that you can use the mouse to achieve the same freedom of view out the cockpit.

So, the ABILITY to do that ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME!!

TrackIR is a tool. Nothing more.
A throttle is a tool. Nothing more. You can use the keyboard to control throttle.


- Track IR does give an advantage, (I don't
- call cheating, a better vid card or a bigger screen
- also gives an advantage after all, so do more
- memory, a cougar and so on...)

See? You just proved my point. TrackIR's only advantage is that you're using your HEAD to control the "mouse" and not your hand.

What is the difference? You could control the joystick with your head and use the mouse with the free hand.

Let's get back to Cardinal.
<blockquote>
Buddy, I agree. PL is not cheating. It's a neccessary aid to ask the computer to do what you would do yourself in real life had you the ability to do it accurately.

External view with padlock is not appropriate for competetive play.
</blockquote>


Let's get back to TrackIR.
TrackIR is a way to move the mouse with your head instead of your hands. Period. You pay for that ability. But you don't have to have it. You can do the same thing with the mouse.

So, it offers little benefit and only a little convenience.

The idea that TrackIR gives some hidden benefit is only recieved by those that choose not to use the mouse to achieve the same effect. Period.


- I didn't say all trackIR users behaved like that or
- cheated. But I think some don't like padlock because
- they have TrackIR. Still that's only my opinion.

I know. I'm being rhetorical, and devils advocate.
By the way, Nic... You're leeching that cookie monster picture from a site not your own. That's bad form.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:55 PM
This whole threat make no sense http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's like outrages u with TeamSPeak2 or ventrilo or such gamevoice comm about cheating ...

I can tell u , are You going ban guy who bought VR cabine with feedback and brain2pc control because u think that makes him unbeatable ...

u wrong ...

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:06 PM
I think you should be banned for not using a dictionary.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:26 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:35 PM
Actually, our war, Forgotten Wars - have about 10% of the pilots using trackIr.

When I asked for a vote, 90% wanted to keep no padlock, even with new range at 3km.

Why? they wanted to track and find targets themselves. Simple as that - they felt it was more realistic.


People have reasons and views outside of your own - I think that is an important life lessons for many on this forum http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:11 PM
I have nothing against TrackIR or the people who use it. Tolwyn could not be more right in his post. Track IR is not bad, it is the people who disable PL to take advantage of people who do not have it that are jerks.

Teamspeak is free and cannot be blamed for any advantage. Anyone can DL Teamspeak and thus is not a factor, so lets drop that now.

PL is more realistic than the hat switch. With the reduced range it cannot be used to "find" targets as it was at 5km. It comes with the game, thus is available for everyone to use. At 3km you plane is obvious, you cannot hide at 3km on a reasonable resolution. At that distance, it should not matter anyway.

As I see it the anti-PL guys have no argument at 3km.


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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:08 AM
Wrong.

It's not a matter of being a jerk if you host no padlock games. It's all a matter of preference.

Just be glad we have the choice to enable or disable certain features for everyone. Scalability is a good thing. For every preference there is a setting. Besides, nobody is forced to join a server with settings that he doesn't like. You don't like the settings or you feel you lack the hardware to play on a certain server? then don't join. Very simple. Save yourself and others the trouble.

Small example:

You can for instance have a guy hosting a game with settings like full real + padlock. But ask yourself why he doesn't just enable settings like, no cockpit, icons and externals?
After all, players who don't like to use these settings, are not forced to use them or can turn them off. So why would he still disable those settings. I mean, even if he doesn't use them himself, he can still let other players who DO like those settings, use them?

The answer is simple: it's a matter of preference.

Some people like everybody in their game to pick their own settings, whether they want to play without cockpit with icons and externals, doesn't matter. That's left up to the discretion of every player. But some people like everybody in their game to play WITH cockpit, without externals, without icons and yes, also without padlock.

You can't say, one is wrong and the other right, you can only say, i like this better than that.

I've seen settings like full real, no cockpit, no speedbar (as if no cockpit doesn't hold a HUD speedreadings). But so what if the guy likes it that way? who are we to tell him he's a jerk for disabling padlock or the speedbar while still enabling no cockpit? The jerk is the one who willingly joins the game and complains about the settings. Nobody forced the jerk to join, and would rather the jerk stayed out of the game. After all what can be more logical than to only join games with settings you like?
If you join, it implies that you willingly accept the settings as they are set by the host.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:17 AM
gotta love padlock very hard to dogfight effectively without it

well my name was spelled wrong

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:22 AM
Right,

i can think of a couple of those too:

gotta love no cockpit, very hard to dogfight effectively without it.

gotta love icons, very hard to dogfight effectively without them.

gotta love no overheat, very hard to dogfight effectively without it.

gotta love unlimited ammo, very hard to dogfight effectively without it.

etc.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:53 AM
I agree.. Ever since Falcon 3 Padlock has been an essential ingredient for me to choose a sim, I have a Tracker IR and dont like it. Makes me feel uncomfortable and does in no way feel or look natural (Especially from someone elses pov). Padlocking is an outomatic way to track a target which compensates for such a restricted FOV (Field of View) thats a computer monitor can give. (i stopped having to think about where i was looking around the same time my first teeth appeared)

It is beyond me how a host will set externals with padlocking but internals without.. All this does id make people dogfight in external views. I think you would agree thats a less realistic situation.

This artical is worth a read ....


http://f4ut.frugalsworld.com/?id=11&aid=45





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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:07 AM
hey Ivan - you can't set pl distance, just triangle distance.

PL is always at 3km (well, at least in 1.1b)

S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:08 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

-
- Head movements of real pilots are not voluntary,
- they do not say "I move my head a little bit to the
- left, now a bit to the right, and if I keep my head
- fixed a second it will be fine". No, pilots think at
- the target but the head movements are not conscient.
- TIR does not mimick this, TIR is just a mouse moved
- with the head. I fail to see what's realistic here.

I just wanted to point out that when i'm flying using tir I look at the target and my view works all by itself. My view in FB works same as real life. I never have to think about it. It just happens.

I don't care if anyone else usess pl. personal choice imo. I do wish your pl view wouldn't go back to center when you lose your target. That always bothered me. If it would just stay where it was when you lost your target it would work much better to pick up from there.

<center>[b]Gundog1[b]</center>
<Center></center

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:10 AM
tell me this - why can you look forward and still have a bandit padlocked?

why can using that not break padlock in clouds?


If I don't use padlock, I don't get those 'features'.




S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:47 AM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- You need a lesson in debate.

Me? No, actually I think you are the one that needs a lesson. In that you are the one who posed the question

"Why are people having such an issue with PL?"

I simply gave you point by point answers to them, where as you decided to ignore each point and simply restate your orgianl statement.. Granted, that is very Clinton like of debating.. but that is not going to get you any closer to the answers you seak in your orginal question.

- Nothing in any of my posts is unreasonable.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Reasonable and Unreasonable is reletave to the person.. That is to say what may be reasonable to you my not be reasonable to me.

- The diversionary troll comment shows you are weak.

Diversionary? You are the one avoiding all the hard questions I posed to you, in that you did not have an answer for any of them. You simply side step them and iterate your orginal statments.. Granted you re-word them a bit to make it look different, but it is not.

- I also do not appreciate that you seem to think
- you are enlightened in some way over pro-PL guys.

Im sorry.. Where you operating under the impression that I give a RATS A$$ about what you appreciate? If so, please understand that I dont! I simply was answering your orginal question.. If that bothers you, then maybe you should not ask questions?

- You most defiantly are not.

Again, you are wrong!

- PL is more realistic than the hat switch.

Ah.. so now your comparing it to the hat switch? Is TrackIR off the table now? In that I have enlightened you on how wrong you were about it? But to address your statement.. You know, that thing you never do.. PL has a more realistic MOTION when compaired to the HAT's snap like motions.. That much is true.. And to be crystal I never said it wasnt.. Well at least in IL2 implimetation of PL. EAW did a beter job of it in the way it slewed the HAT moves.

But back to your statment.. not this one, the orginal one about how people with TrackIR are disabling PL online for some kind of edge. I hope that I have edicated you enough for you to realise that TrackIR does not give you and edge, but that PL does.

In that TrackIR will...

1) NOT maintain a track in clouds
2) NOT put a bright targe box around your target.
3) NOT find a target you dont see.
4) NOT maintain a track when tgt is behind, wing, cockpit, etc.

TrackIR is basically the natural progression of the HAT keys. The arguments your using for PL vs TrackIR are the same LAME arguments *they* back when HATS first showed up on joysticks.. Only then it was KEYBOARD vs HAT...

And im am sure there will be a whole new set of clueless folks in the near future that will pull out these same arguments and whine like babys when the HMD replaces TrackIR.

- You cannot debate that.

I allready have, your bias is just too large for you to realise it, or, you just like to beeeeyach!



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:06 AM
tolwyn.com wrote:
<div align="center"style="background:yellow;color:black;"> Blaming TrackIR isn't the issue. Blame the STUPID SERVER HOST that has PL disabled. I agree with you 100% that a Host, having TrackIR and disabling PL to give himself an advantage is a JERK. But TrackIR isn't the culprit. It's the jerk. </div>

Hmmmm.. you must have a funny definition of ADVANTAGE? Well, just to get us both on the same sheet of music, let me tell you my definition of ADVANTAGE.

<div align="center"style="background:yellow;color:black;">
An advantage with regards to flight simulations views would be
1) Something that AUTOMATICALLY FINDS the targets for me.. That is I dont even have to see them, just press the majic button and WA-LA I have found a target.
2) Something that puts a BRIGHT BOX around the target... Which makes it much easier to shoot at those dark green aircraft when they are at tree top level.
3) Something that maitains a LOCK when the targets goes into a cloud; goes behind the cockpit panels; goes behind the wing; goes behind etc.</div>

Thing to NOTE about my definition.. TrackIR does NONE of those things I consider to be an ADVANTAGE.. BUT PL does


- Say it with me; choose a melody and sing:
-
- TrackIR isn't the enemy
- The dork that disables PL to gain advantage is the
- enemy
-
- TrackIR isn't the enemy
- The dork that disables PL to gain advantage is the
- enemy
-
- TrackIR isn't the enemy
- The dork that disables PL to gain advantage is the
- enemy

Huh.. looks like your CD is scratched and the song is skipping and repeating! That, or your one of those guys who belives if he says it enough it might become true?



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:26 AM
Commander_169th wrote:
- I agree.. Ever since Falcon 3 Padlock has been an
- essential ingredient for me to choose a sim, I have
- a Tracker IR and dont like it.

If you don't like the trackIR, you haven't set it up properly.
That's all there is to it really. Ask some advice on the Naturalpoint boards or here on on simhq.

I've used padlock in sims since falcon3. But that didn't stop me from playing massive multiplayer online sims as Aces High or Warbirds. Those are sims where nobody uses padlock or it is simply not modelled. It's just another step up in "difficulty". I say it as "difficulty" (between quotes), because after a while you don't even notice it as being difficult to fly without padlock. You do it without thinking about it. It's just like learning to deal e.g. with stalls and spins, first you may stall and spin all over the place and decide to turn stalls and spins off for the time being. But later on you progress towards enabling the stalls and spins and think nothing more of it. In fact you may laugh when you encounter a game that has stalls and spins disabled.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:46 AM
Dnmy wrote:

Hey Dnmy! Just wanted to thank you again in helping me pull my head out with regards to ENHANCED MODE in TrackIR!! On that note.. I think there is a guy in this thread that can be salvaged! Jumoschwanz is having the same problem I was having before you helped me out.. Here is what Jumoschwanz wrote:

- Jumoschwanz wrote:
- I have track IR with the latest drivers and I
- do not see any advantage over anything with it. It
- takes frequent recentering

Note he made mention of FREQUENT RECENTERING.. Which is what I had to do when using MOUSE EMULATION MODE.. I told him about the F8 key to toggle between modes, and the F12 key to center the ENHANCED mode.. But I dont know if it sunk in.. He may need help from the master.. So, I thought I would point him in your direction!

Again, thanks for helping my stuborn A out way back when! TrackIR is soooo much better in ENHANCED MODE! Once you figure out how to center it via F12




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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:04 AM
nicolas10 wrote:
- I think the anti padlock crowd is a bunch of spoiled
- trackIR users who want an advantage over people who
- don't have trackIR.

Please don't categorize TIR users completely. I've got TIR and I love it, but I won't kill PL in a hosted game. Padlock, despite it's various flaws in execution, is the best way (without TIR) to represent a pilot being able to keeps his eyes on his target. Lots of good suggestions in this thread to "fix" it, like selectable range settings, etc. Let's hope someday PL becomes more user friendly.


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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:58 AM
Tagert,

You can help only those who wanna be helped. Some guys don't wanna be helped. If that is the case, then it's least of all my task to help em on their way.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:24 PM
I donÔ┬┤t use padlock, I have no TrackIR, I donÔ┬┤t like padlock.
I donÔ┬┤t think that I have a disadvantage if I donÔ┬┤t use it, but I dislike it, cause if I have padlocked a plane and "I am" looking down to a forest and see nothing and my view following a "plane"... but If you like it its ok- all people like diffent settings- open your own server! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:43 PM
Guys I agree - those who use PL just didn't really try to fly without it. Finding and tracking the targets ONESELF without any assistance is harder, but is much more interesting. Reason: when EVERY pilot has the same perfect ability to see all the enemy planes is TOTALLY unrealistic. It denies the skills in combat awareness. The only skill is to press a F5 key as faster as possible.

I flew WB1, CFS1, FighterSquadron SDOE, FlyingCorps before. I have Il-2 since December 2001. I never used PL. And here in Russia it is nearly impossible to get a TIR. But I will never compain on lack of view (sorry for the bad English) 'cause ALL of pilots have the same conditions, but the difference is how every pilot realizes its possibilities. PL equalizes every pilot.

I in any way support those here who is against PL.
And I am glad it was removed from the war - both VOW and VEF.

_________________________________
Hey guys! Do you really think searching for a plane in the reality was as easy as pressing a key several times? It's absurd.
_________________________________

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:08 PM
Dnmy wrote:
- Tagert,
-
- You can help only those who wanna be helped. Some
- guys don't wanna be helped. If that is the case,
- then it's least of all my task to help em on their
- way.

TRUE!



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:11 PM
JZG_Ehrler wrote:
- Guys I agree - those who use PL just didn't really
- try to fly without it. Finding and tracking the
- targets ONESELF without any assistance is harder,
- but is much more interesting. Reason: when EVERY
- pilot has the same perfect ability to see all the
- enemy planes is TOTALLY unrealistic. It denies the
- skills in combat awareness. The only skill is to
- press a F5 key as faster as possible.
-
- I flew WB1, CFS1, FighterSquadron SDOE, FlyingCorps
- before. I have Il-2 since December 2001. I never
- used PL. And here in Russia it is nearly impossible
- to get a TIR. But I will never compain on lack of
- view (sorry for the bad English) 'cause ALL of
- pilots have the same conditions, but the difference
- is how every pilot realizes its possibilities. PL
- equalizes every pilot.
-
- I in any way support those here who is against PL.
- And I am glad it was removed from the war - both VOW
- and VEF.
-
- _________________________________
- Hey guys! Do you really think searching for a plane
- in the reality was as easy as pressing a key several
- times? It's absurd.
- _________________________________

I Agree with EVERYTHING you said



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:22 PM
Flag Down.

Tolwyn calls BS on Cardinal, 5 yards.

Hey, Card.
TrackIR, unless RegHacked, does not let you see directly behind you.

And when you do RegHack it, when you look behind you, you know what you see? The back of your chair. Weeee.

And that little problem with the Linda Blair swivel? Made me crash into the ground 100% of the time until they fixed it.

The best way to see behind you is to pull up while looking as far up as you can, or look at your 7 and kick rudder.

Remember, kids.

The game can't model your Mark-2 Eyeballs rolling around in their sockets. PL is a mechanism to compensate for that.


RayBanJockey has this whole thread 100% ON THE MONEY. Great post, RBJ.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:27 PM
Dnmy, you're missing the mark.


Dnmy wrote:

- It's not a matter of being a jerk if you host no
- padlock games. It's all a matter of preference.

If you've read any of my posts on ORR, you'll know that I support options, options, options.

I agree with you 100%. I'm saying that People with TrackIR, solely to gain an advantage, running servers without PL are creating disparity.

That work okay?

- Just be glad we have the choice to enable or disable
- certain features for everyone.

Agree 100%. I think you're barking up the wrong tree, haven't read this whole thread, etc.

I'm with you here, buddy. I think we're talking about something else.


- on a certain server? then don't join. Very simple.

Totally agree with you here, as well. We're being rhetorical in this thread. Obviously, the best thing to do is that if you don't want to join the server, don't.

HOWEVER, when an entire on-line war (the rules) are set up in such a way that creates the above-mentioned disparity... THAT is where this gets really screwed up, really quick.


- You can for instance have a guy hosting a game with
- settings like full real + padlock. But ask yourself
- why he doesn't just enable settings like, no
- cockpit, icons and externals?

Right right. I still think you're missing our point here. We agree with you on options. We're talking about things like VEF, VEF2, VOW, yada yada where the entire rule set offers no flexibility.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:27 PM
Aardvark892 wrote:
- nicolas10 wrote:
-- I think the anti padlock crowd is a bunch of spoiled
-- trackIR users who want an advantage over people who
-- don't have trackIR.
-
- Please don't categorize TIR users completely.

They cant help it really... It is a thinly vailed Clinton type-o-tatic. They actually realise that the ADVANTAGES comes when you use PL, so to turn the tables around, they accuse the others of having the advantage to put them on the defence. Thus taking the focus off of the fact that PL has all the un-realistci advantages. Ive just been around long enough that I can see right through thier tatic.. It is the same lame stuff *they* used ten years ago or so when HAT's fist came out on joysticks, only back then they were whinning about KEYBOARD KEYS vs HATS.

- I've got TIR and I love it, but I won't kill PL in a
- hosted game.

That is your choice! Something *they* dont understand either.

- Padlock, despite it's various flaws in execution,
- is the best way (without TIR) to represent a pilot
- being able to keeps his eyes on his target.

Disagree.. Note, Im not saying that the way the view moves/slews around is not more realistic looking over the snap view of a hat! Of corse PL.. once locked up mimics head movements much more realistcly. But, the way it OBTAINS and MAINTAINS the LOCK is very Very VERY un-realistic of how a pilot keeps his eyes on his target. There is an old figher jock saying..

LOOSE SIGHT LOOSE FIGHT!

And that is the problem with PL.. You dont LOOSE SIGHT! It will MAINTAIN the LOCK and PAN/SLEW the view with the target EVEN when you can not see it, i.e. the target can be behind your wing.. but PL will keep the FLOW OF YOUR VIEW with the target.

For Example:

If a target slips behind my wing.. I can not see him anymore.. And should he happen to change direction while behind my wing I wont know it.. But if I have him PL I will know because the VIEW will start to MOVE/SLEW in that NEW direction.. You dont get that with HAT, MOUSE, TrackIR view!!! With those views you have to manuver your plane so that the WING does NOT block your view and you can maintain the SIGHT!!! ***THAT*** is just ***ONE*** reason the other views are MORE REALISTIC than PL!

- Lots of good suggestions in this thread
- to "fix" it, like selectable range settings, etc.

Agreed 100%!

- Let's hope someday PL becomes more user friendly.

But until then, leave it as is, an option that gets turned OFF when you select FULL REAL! As it SHOULD BE!!



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:36 PM
tagert driveled on about::
- 1) Something that AUTOMATICALLY FINDS the targets
- for me.. That is I dont even have to see them, just
- press the majic button and WA-LA I have found a
- target.

Padlock automatically finds targets for you?
You have just expressed your ignorance.
You are playing with Externals On and using External Padlock.

Padlock cannot find targets for you. It simply assists you given the limitations of the monitor and the visual interface by keeping your virtual "eyes" on the target once you find it.
I think you're playing the wrong game.


- 2) Something that puts a BRIGHT BOX around the
- target... Which makes it much easier to shoot at
- those dark green aircraft when they are at tree top
- level.

Now you're talking about icons. Again, you can set icon distance mutually exclusive from padlock.
So, you're mixing and matching settings, here, buddy.
Strike Two.

- 3) Something that maitains a LOCK when the targets
- goes into a cloud; goes behind the cockpit panels;
- goes behind the wing; goes behind etc.

If you're telling me that in the 1-2 seconds it does this before breaking lock is wrong, then do you not have the ability to extrapolate (look it up, genius) the trajectory of an object once it has left your view?

Strike Three.

You have no argument.

- Thing to NOTE about my definition.. TrackIR does
- NONE of those things I consider to be an ADVANTAGE..
- BUT PL does


Too bad my analogy is baseball, otherwise, this would be Strike Four.

You're mixing and matching again. There really is not comparison between TrackIR and PL.

You can do the same thing with the mouse.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:56 PM
"Advantages that, I might add, that don't come on the game CD. In other sims we call that cheating"

TrackIR support is built into IL-2:FB, a joystick does'nt come with the CD neither does a large screen monitor or a Geforce FX or ATi Radeon card which allow users to play in higher resolutions perhaps giving them an advantage so perhaps we should ban those too and make everyone play in 800x600 16 bit colour using an old Geforce 1 card with all users using a keyboard as their only means of control maybe?

The TrackIR only allows players to pan their view just as the top hat switch does on anyone's joystick but padlock introduces a system that artificially boosts your situational awareness and as such those that use it have a distinct advantage over those who prefer to track cons themselves. There is no plausible comparison between using the TrackIR and using padlock as they are two very separate things and to try to comapre them shows a lack of understanding of the two.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:03 PM
tolwyn.com whinned about:
-
- tagert driveled on about::
-- 1) Something that AUTOMATICALLY FINDS the targets
-- for me.. That is I dont even have to see them, just
-- press the majic button and WA-LA I have found a
-- target.
-
- Padlock automatically finds targets for you?

Yes.

- You have just expressed your ignorance.

No.

- You are playing with Externals On and using External
- Padlock.

Sorry wrong again. Big gold star for effort though! Keep up the false statements and accuse them of what you do tactics and you will win the Clintonisk employees of the moth and get your picture on the wall

- Padlock cannot find targets for you.

Total and 100% Bold Face Lie!

- It simply assists you given the limitations of the
- monitor and the visual interface by keeping your
- virtual "eyes" on the target once you find it.

Disagree.

- I think you're playing the wrong game.

Think Again.. Ah heck, Think at all would be a start!!


- Now you're talking about icons.

Wrong, I'm not talking about the icons, i.e. "plane/player name and distance" icons, I'm talking about how padlock, once locked shows you the "target box".

- Again, you can set icon distance mutually exclusive
- from padlock.

I never said you could NOT do so, I simply pointed out how PL will put a target box around the target. I said nothing about icons, except to point out, in another msg, that most REALISTIC servers disable icons too, in that they are not realistic either, the disabling of icons an PL usually go hand in hand in that the server is going for the FULL REAL effect... You know the FULL REAL thing right? The option that disables PL because it is NOT considered FULL REAL! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- So, you're mixing and matching settings, here,
- buddy.

No. You are confusing target box with icons

- Strike Two.

You have one left, and NO BALLS! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- If you're telling me that in the 1-2 seconds it does
- this before breaking lock is wrong, then do you not
- have the ability to extrapolate (look it up, genius)
- the trajectory of an object once it has left your
- view?

Ah, now here is an example of ignorant. Please towelboy.com NOTE that it has been know by the Pl crowd for some time now that all you have to do is hold the LOOK FORWARD key down while in the cloud and it will not break the lock. That is to say there is NO 1-2 seconds before it breaks, it never breaks, thus once you are out of the cloud all you have to do is release the LOOK FORWARD key and BAM, your back on TRACK!! Just another one of those things that gives PL users an ADVANTAGE.

- Strike Three.

Your OUT and you still have NO BALLS!

- You have no argument.

Sorry, but your wrong, keep up the good work though, your picture will be on the wall of whiners of the month in no time!

- Too bad my analogy is baseball, otherwise, this
- would be Strike Four.

Agreed, I wish there was a good analogy for how wrong you are.. Give me some time, Ill think of one!

- You're mixing and matching again.

Not true.

- There really is not comparison between TrackIR and PL.

Agreed, TrackIR has NONE of the unrealistic advantages of PL.

- You can do the same thing with the mouse.

Or in your case a Gerbil



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:51 PM
Tagert, I think that this debate will continue in 2013 and in 2103. Of course some of these guys can sometimes make statements which give kinda reasons for using PL. Not like those which were given in previous statement though. It's absurd - "The PL doesn't find an enemy". IT ACTUALLY DOES!!!

But finally it's childish. Having computer HELPING you in any way is cheat. And I don't think it's very mature of Tolwyn to use such manner (sorry for bad English again).

Finally those guys who don't fly without padlock just play kinda arcade. They HAVE FUN. And you'll never convice these guys.

Just let's fly FULL REAL and hope the cheating PL will never return to the real war.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 06:59 PM
JZG_Ehrler wrote:
- Tagert, I think that this debate will continue in
- 2013 and in 2103.

Roger That! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Of course some of these guys can
- sometimes make statements which give kinda reasons
- for using PL.

Agreed 100%. If the *limits* that some have mentioned were implimented then PL would not be as much of an advantage as it is now.

- Not like those which were given in
- previous statement though. It's absurd - "The PL
- doesn't find an enemy". IT ACTUALLY DOES!!!

Agreed 100%!

- But finally it's childish. Having computer HELPING
- you in any way is cheat.

Agreed.

- And I don't think it's very mature of Tolwyn to
- use such manner (sorry for bad English again).

Agreed, and no problem! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Finally those guys who don't fly without padlock
- just play kinda arcade. They HAVE FUN. And you'll
- never convice these guys.

Sad thing is your are 100% correct, we are not going to change their bias. The things I cant stand is they know that PL is the method with the advantages and thus cheating.. but.. to get more servers to use PL they goes as far as to try and turn it around and accuse the folks using a HAT, MOUSE, or TrackIR as the ones that have the advantage and are cheating.. I could and would respect them alot more if they just said...

"Please enable PL in realistic servers, because I dont know how to apply good SA tatics and thus get shot down alot and need the advantages of PL to compete with the rest of you that know how to apply good SA tatics"

- Just let's fly FULL REAL and hope the cheating PL
- will never return to the real war.

Agreed 100%!



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 07:12 PM
PL is a simulation of a pilots gaze tracking an enemy aircraft. That's my opinion, please respect it. I generally do not fly on servers that don't have it. I use the HAT switch now and then but don't like the 'robot' fixed viewpoints that it offers.
PL is a must. Hyperlobby realism servers are all well and good, but I wish PL was allowed in 'realism' settings in FB.
PL can be exploited to pick off NME aircraft hidden by terrain. This is wrong. PL should only work IMO within a certain radius to the centre of your field of view.
There are those among us who will tap away at PL while making no effort to actually zero an aircraft themselves.
There is at least one guy on these forums who has admitted to that.
I would like PL modified (not crippled) to illiminate it's radar capabilities.
Using PL in this way is no better than using an aimbot IMO.
All that being said, I love PL and think it is one of the best things in the game, but it must be treated with respect.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 07:24 PM
Tolwyn you are missing the mark instead.

Doesn't matter if you are referring to online wars as VEF, VEF2, VOW etc. There's nobody forcing anybody to join these wars. If you join, you join out of your own free will. If you can't live by the rules set for these wars, then it's only stupid to join and complain afterwards. Simply don't join. That goes for every online game DF, coop, online war or what have you.

The best is to setup your own online war/game with settings that you like. But to really add some flexibility, be sure to enable settings like externals, no cockpit, icons, map icons, padlock with the triangle, no stalls/spins, no overheat, unlimited ammo, in short the easy settings, just leave the vulnerability intact. With that kinda flexibility, you cater for just about anybody. Even for my 6 y/o nephew who flies with the keyboard and who likes to play with those settings.

Point is that the guys who willingly play with certain settings disabled do so because they're most likely seasoned virtual pilots who value the challenge of more difficult settings, out of preference. And without certain settings enabled (like padlock) it is going to be a lot more difficult, whether you use a trackIR or not.

tolwyn.com wrote:

- ...We're talking
- about things like VEF, VEF2, VOW, yada yada where
- the entire rule set offers no flexibility.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 07:49 PM
Scragbat wrote:
- PL is a simulation of a pilots gaze tracking an
- enemy aircraft.

True.

- That's my opinion,

Not really, it just is. Now had you said PL is more realistic, that would be an opinion, but saying it is a simulation of a pilots gaze tracking a target is not.

- please respect it.

Respect is earned, not given.

- I generally do not fly on servers that don't
- have it.

Fine.

- I use the HAT switch now and then but
- don't like the 'robot' fixed viewpoints that it
- offers.

Fine.

- PL is a must.

That is an opinion.. One that I disagree with.

- Hyperlobby realism servers are all well and good,

Im sure Hyperlobby will sleep better now that they have your aproval.

- but I wish PL was allowed in 'realism' settings
- in FB.

Wish away.. but it wont change the fact that most people reaslise that it is not realistic due to the advantages it provides. So much so that even the sim makers went as far as to have it disabled when someone selects realistic.

- PL can be exploited to pick off NME aircraft hidden
- by terrain. This is wrong.

Agreed, so you do understand why people dont include PL in thier full real servers.

- PL should only work IMO within a certain radius
- to the centre of your field of view.

Agreed, so you do understand why people dont include PL in thier full real servers.

- There are those among us who will tap away at PL
- while making no effort to actually zero an aircraft
- themselves.
- There is at least one guy on these forums who has
- admitted to that.

Agreed, so you do understand why people dont include PL in thier full real servers.

- I would like PL modified (not crippled) to
- illiminate it's radar capabilities.

Problem is the word *modified* is relitive to the person saying it.. You will never get all the PL dweebs to agree on the range it should be limited too.

- Using PL in this way is no better than using an
- aimbot IMO.

Agreed, so you do understand why people dont include PL in thier full real servers.

- All that being said, I love PL and think it is one
- of the best things in the game, but it must be
- treated with respect.

Wish in one hand and S in the other and see which one fills up first.



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:31 PM
tagert wrote:
-- Padlock automatically finds targets for you?
-
- Yes.

Not on my installation. I find them. I've yet to have a game feature point out a target for me. So, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Perhaps you're not playing the game well enough to find them on your own, or you need glasses.

-- You are playing with Externals On and using External
-- Padlock.
-
- Sorry wrong again. Big gold star for effort though!
- Keep up the false statements and accuse them of what
- you do tactics and you will win the Clintonisk
- employees of the moth and get your picture on the
- wall

That is the response you have for me, huh?
Did you just learn about Clinton in school or something? Please convince me you can do better than this.

The only way I've ever seen the game point out targets for me is with External Padlock. So, we can't help but assume that you don't have the ability to find them on your own.

Tell me how, under 3 km, padlock can find a target that you yourself can't see.


-- Padlock cannot find targets for you.
-
- Total and 100% Bold Face Lie!

Wow. I think you're just arguing for the sake of bolstering your post count, then. See above.

Under 3km, if you can't see the targets that you're attempting to padlock, you need glasses. If you're mindlessing striking the padlock key over and over again until it "locks something up" then you're not skilled enough to actually scan the sky before finding a target with your own eyes.

The game can't determine if you have the brains enough to see something in front of you before you employ padlock. I guess there is no help for you, then.


-- It simply assists you given the limitations of the
-- monitor and the visual interface by keeping your
-- virtual "eyes" on the target once you find it.
-
- Disagree.


You can disagree that 2 + 2 is equal to 4 as well, but it doesn't make it any less true. I would imagine that we will have to agree to disagree.

-- I think you're playing the wrong game.
-
- Think Again.. Ah heck, Think at all would be a
- start!!

See, this is why we give children naps. You haven't the ability to exercise debate; only your mouth. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-- Now you're talking about icons.
-
- Wrong, I'm not talking about the icons, i.e.
- "plane/player name and distance" icons,

So, I'm wrong. You're not talking about icons, just icons. Got it.



- I'm talking
- about how padlock, once locked shows you the "target
- box".


Guess I never noticed it when the whole plane is taking up the visible portion of my cockpit.

-- Again, you can set icon distance mutually exclusive
-- from padlock.
-
- I never said you could NOT do so, I simply pointed
- out how PL will put a target box around the target.
- I said nothing about icons, except to point out, in
- another msg, that most REALISTIC servers disable
- icons too, in that they are not realistic either,


Realistic according to whom? It's realistic to not have peripheral vision? It's realistic to not be able to actually track a target?

I think there is an intelligence gap between what is labeled "realistic" and what is, in the REAL world, physically possible that is NOT physically possible in the game.


- the disabling of icons an PL usually go hand in hand
- in that the server is going for the FULL REAL
- effect... You know the FULL REAL thing right?


Yes. The ability to actually track a target with my eyes in full field of view, not 90 degree FOV that the game allows. I seem to be able to do that when I take the local Cessna up at KEAT.

Perhaps you're confusing what is real according to the label on the difficulty settings with what would be natural and easy in real life?



- The
- option that disables PL because it is NOT considered
- FULL REAL!


Ha. I would have to disagree. And I think Oleg would as well, and any other real pilot in the world, which you are not, by your very argumentative childlike state of mind clearly illustrates.


But if you want to be a card-carrying member of the "I Fly Full Real because the game says so," then be my guest.

We're having a discussion of what is realistic considering the nature of the limitations placed upon all of us by the monitor and the input devices we have at our disposal. Since our eyes can't be considered an "input" device, we feel it completely natural to utilize padlock to make it MORE REAL; not less.

I think arguing with you is pointless, and I'll leave it to you to refute what is clearly fact.

I truly regret to leave you in such a state, but I will.


- Ah, now here is an example of ignorant. Please
- towelboy.com NOTE that it has been know by the Pl
- crowd for some time now that all you have to do is
- hold the LOOK FORWARD key down while in the cloud
- and it will not break the lock. That is to say there
- is NO 1-2 seconds before it breaks, it never breaks,
- thus once you are out of the cloud all you have to
- do is release the LOOK FORWARD key and BAM, your
- back on TRACK!! Just another one of those things
- that gives PL users an ADVANTAGE.

I'll grant you that this appears to be a bug, not a feature. I don't use "Instant Forward while Padlocked." Why don't you use some of that name-calling energy you seem to have and submit a bug report, then?

- Sorry, but your wrong, keep up the good work though,
- your picture will be on the wall of whiners of the
- month in no time!

I'm hardly whining about it either way. I play on any server, PL or not. I simply fell that PL is a natural tool to employ appropraitely that ADDS realism, not DETRACTS from it. Which is what this whole thread is about, in case you missed it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Agreed, I wish there was a good analogy for how
- wrong you are.. Give me some time, Ill think of one!

If you need help, go ask someone older.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:20 PM
1st of all, that should be "...simply feel" not "...simply fell" My success in editing posts on this forum is less than stellar.

I wanted to comment on a few things again.

1.
There is an appropraite way to employ padlock, and there is the "stab the padlock button until it finds *SOMETHING* approach.

I'm sure it can be said and agreed that there is the right way to utilize a feature, and a wrong way; however, the feature is oblivious to the skill of the user. That doesn't make the feature less "real."

2.
They call them difficulty settings for a reason. Yes. It is definately "more difficult" with padlock disabled. No argument there. It's also "more difficult" golfing with only one arm. Doesn't make it more "realistic," though. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Full Real I don't believe is a term coined through FB, is it?

That's all... Carry on.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:24 PM
I don't mind if people use "crutch-lock" because I don't take getting shot down personally but as an ex-padlock user (and icons, no-cockpit, etc.) who purchased a TIR I can only say that I like not having the computer do the work for me by constantly tapping the crutchlock key among other things.

If you like using padlock, no cockpit, icons, whatever there's nothing wrong with that either! I hung on to no-cockpit like a life-line for the longest time until I broke the habit and can honestly say the game is more fun for me having to do things myself. With that said, sometimes I just feel like playing a quick fun game on HL with icons on and whatever, it's a game to be enjoyed after all and sometimes I like playing "arcade".

Tolwyn, I know you are an intelligent guy from your postings on this forum but I don't see why you think padlock is MORE realistic than no-padlock after all of the stark measureable evidence provided in this thread. It's like you skip over the evidence and disregard it with every post. And now it's become like a vindictive schoolyard battle.

Like I said, use PL all you want but if you can get past your bias at some point, I think you will come to see why those 90% of players in the online wars prefer not to have PL, much like they don't prefer no cockpit, icons, etc.

Cheers!



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:45 PM
PriK, thank you for a nice posting. It's a really balanced opinion. I support it.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:58 PM
tolwyn.com wrote:
-
- tagert wrote:
--- Padlock automatically finds targets for you?
--
-- Yes.
-
- Not on my installation. I find them. I've yet to
- have a game feature point out a target for me.

Just to bring you up to speed, here is how PL works. In that it is clear that you don't understand how it does work. All you have to do is direct the view via the HAT, MOUSE, KEYBOARD, TrackIR, etc and press F4 to lock onto a target within range... That is to say.. you don't have to find it first, and then press F4 for padlock to lock it up.. You can close your eyes and do what I said, and if there is a target there, you will have it locked up and tracking it. This makes it very Very VERY easy and fast to scan an area.. No need to apply GOOD SA tactics, just point and click, no need to scan those hard to see areas, those tree tops, that city below where the outline of an aircraft might blend in... JUST PRESS F4 and WAH-LAH you will lock it up in padlock. Now that I have educated you on how padlock works, let continue.

- So, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Disagree all you want, it will not change the fact that is how it works, just because you don't know how to do it does not mean it is not there.

- Perhaps you're not playing the game well enough to
- find them on your own, or you need glasses.

On the contrary, I know how PL works, I consider it a BOT type cheat, I don't want to depend on the PC to do my work for me. I prefer realistic SA tactics where I have to scan the area and clear it.. not some hot key.

- That is the response you have for me, huh?

Yes.. What part of "Sorry wrong again" did you not understand? Well, in light of the trouble you are having with how PL works Ill spell it out for you, Towelboy.com I do not play with externals on and I do not use external padlock, you are incorrect in stating that you have to have externals enable for PL to lock up a target, all you have to do is press F4 (or F5 for gnd targets) and if the target is somewhere in the view it will lock it up and start tracking it. Keep in mind that when I say "in the view" I mean "if you were to look at it, you could see it" Which means it can not be behind the window strut or wing.. But once you do lock it up in padlock it will maintain track when it goes behind a window strut or wing... There, is that clear enough for you?

- Did you just learn about Clinton in school or something?

No, are you old enough to remember who Clinton is?

- Please convince me you can do better than this.

Stick around!

- The only way I've ever seen the game point out
- targets for me is with External Padlock.

We have all ready established that you don't know how PL works, see above.

- So, we can't help but assume that you don't have the
- ability to find them on your own.

Once again you are wrong.. But Ill cut you some slack in that at the time of your statement you did not have an understanding of how PL works.

- Tell me how, under 3 km, padlock can find a target
- that you yourself can't see.

See above.

- Wow. I think you're just arguing for the sake of
- bolstering your post count, then.

No actually I was just trying to drive home a point that you don't know what your talking about, or are a liar.

- See above.

Same.


- Under 3km, if you can't see the targets that you're
- attempting to padlock, you need glasses.

Ah, I think I may understand your misunderstanding? Are you under the impression that I said I can not see the target? If so, please understand that is not the case. The CASE is this.. You don't have to SEE the target for PADLOCK to lock onto it via the F4 key. To reiterate my example, you can close your eyes, press F4 and if there is a target in the view padlock will lock onto it and start tracking it. With that said, you DON'T have to scan the view with your eyes before you padlock something. That SIMPLE LITTLE FACT (that you don't seem to understand) is what give PL and advantage over people who use HAT, MOUSE, or TrackIR.

- If you're mindlessing striking the padlock key over and over
- again until it "locks something up" then you're not
- skilled enough to actually scan the sky before
- finding a target with your own eyes.

Now your catching on! Just note that I don't use padlock, so I'm not mindlessing pressing F4... **BUT** it **IS** that **ABILITY** of PL for which people disable PL in full real settings.

- The game can't determine if you have the brains
- enough to see something in front of you before you
- employ padlock. I guess there is no help for you,
- then.

Again, you are operating under the impression that I use padlock, I don't.. I use TrackIR, I scan the view for targets. Talk about a guy who just wants to argue for the sake of arguing! LOL!

- You can disagree that 2 + 2 is equal to 4 as well,
- but it doesn't make it any less true. I would
- imagine that we will have to agree to disagree.

I think it is your imagination that got you into the misunderstanding of what I said and how PL works... So, you might want to stay away from that and pay attention.

- See, this is why we give children naps. You haven't
- the ability to exercise debate; only your mouth.

Again, your reversing the rolls here, Very Clinton of you, I think your going to win that prize for sure!

- So, I'm wrong. You're not talking about icons, just
- icons. Got it.

I don't think you do "got it" in that you still don't know the difference between the ICONS and the TARGET BOX.. Well, not hard to belive, what with your misunderstanding of how PL works. Maybe you should play the game for a few days before you comment on it?

- Guess I never noticed it when the whole plane is
- taking up the visible portion of my cockpit.

Agreed, you don't notice anything less.. in the sim or this topic.

-- I never said you could NOT do so, I simply pointed
-- out how PL will put a target box around the target.
-- I said nothing about icons, except to point out, in
-- another msg, that most REALISTIC servers disable
-- icons too, in that they are not realistic either,
-
- Realistic according to whom?

Oh.. so now your saying that little colored icons floating above the aircraft is realistic? Or that a target box formed around a WWII aircraft is realistic?

- It's realistic to not have peripheral vision? It's realistic
- to not be able to actually track a target?

LOL! Nice try, but I never said it was.. Try and stick to one topic at a time bud, in that your still having trouble with this one.. We can debate those things in another thread.

- I think there is an intelligence gap between what is
- labeled "realistic" and what is, in the
- REAL world, physically possible that is NOT
- physically possible in the game.

Don't be too hard on yourself though.. You stick around and it is sure to rub off on you.

- Yes. The ability to actually track a target with my
- eyes in full field of view, not 90 degree FOV that
- the game allows. I seem to be able to do that when I
- take the local Cessna up at KEAT.

Hehehee that one stung huh? So.. is the next part going to be where you tell us you stood next to a real P51 once, thus you are the ALPHA and BETA of what is real and what is not? Might work on those kids you hang out with in 5th grade.. but not here! Sorry.

- Perhaps you're confusing what is real according to
- the label on the difficulty settings with what would
- be natural and easy in real life?

Hardly, if anyone is confused it is you. In that now that I have cornered you and showed you how wrong you were about how PL works you now want to switch to what you *FEEL* is natural or needed to make up for PC limitations? We can go there, but lets stick to the topic at hand where you are wrong about how PL locks up a target you don't even have to see.

- Ha. I would have to disagree.

Bet!

- And I think Oleg would as well, and any other real pilot
- in the world, which you are not, by your very argumentative
- childlike state of mind clearly illustrates.

Nice try.. you can just to all kinds of tangent topics you want, but the simple fact is that FULL REALISTIC settings disables PL... And that you didn't know how PL worked until I spelled it out to you. Now instead of admitting you were wrong, you want to change the topic.. Sorry, but in this forums realistic settings the Clintonisk settings are DISABLED! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- But if you want to be a card-carrying member of the
- "I Fly Full Real because the game says so," then be
- my guest.

Still don't understand huh? Oh well, Cant say I didn't try.. I gave you several examples of how PL gives you and unrealistic advantage.. No one is saying the fluid motion of PL is unreal.. it looks very real.. Just like TrackIR looks real.. It is the ability of PL to do all those **OTHER** things that I told you about that makes it unrealistic and thus the reason people disable it and thus the reason it is disabled in the game with you select FULL REAL. Any of that sinking in yet? Or do you just want to start another tangent topic?

- We're having a discussion of what is realistic
- considering the nature of the limitations placed
- upon all of us by the monitor and the input devices
- we have at our disposal. Since our eyes can't be
- considered an "input" device, we feel it completely
- natural to utilize padlock to make it MORE REAL; not
- less.

And some don't agree with you... Like the makers of the game itself, in that even they disable PL in FULL REAL SETTINGS

- I think arguing with you is pointless, and I'll
- leave it to you to refute what is clearly fact.

LOL! Looks like I hit home.. Typical.. A kid finds out he was wrong, so, change the topic or takes his ball and goes home.

- I truly regret to leave you in such a state, but I
- will.

LOL! Ok.. Ok.. You win! You picture will be on the wall by morning! I promise!

-- Ah, now here is an example of ignorant. Please
-- towelboy.com NOTE that it has been know by the Pl
-- crowd for some time now that all you have to do is
-- hold the LOOK FORWARD key down while in the cloud
-- and it will not break the lock. That is to say there
-- is NO 1-2 seconds before it breaks, it never breaks,
-- thus once you are out of the cloud all you have to
-- do is release the LOOK FORWARD key and BAM, your
-- back on TRACK!! Just another one of those things
-- that gives PL users an ADVANTAGE.
-
- I'll grant you that this appears to be a bug, not a
- feature. I don't use "Instant Forward while
- Padlocked." Why don't you use some of that
- name-calling energy you seem to have and submit a
- bug report, then?

LOL! Geeee I feel so much better... He will grant me that! Well, now that you have been enlightened on the use and miss-use of PL... can you understand why some servers disable it?

- I'm hardly whining about it either way. I play on
- any server, PL or not. I simply fell that PL is a
- natural tool to employ appropraitely that ADDS
- realism, not DETRACTS from it. Which is what this
- whole thread is about, in case you missed it.

In your mind that may be the case... And I'm sure you are honest when you say that, in light of all the things you have missed up to now.. But know this, the topic at hand started off implying that the servers that disable PL are using TrackIR and doing so to gain an advantage... It has been pointed out that not only is that not the case, but just the opposite. PL is the method that provides the unrealistic advantages... And PLEASE try to comprehend this little note.. *WE* are *NOT* saying that the fluid motion of PL is unrealistic.... It is that fluid motion which drove most of us to buy the TrackIR device!! That fluid motion is very Very VERY realistic like!! Much better looking than the HAT views... **BUT** with that said know this, the **PROBLEM** *WE* have with PL is all the **OTHER** things it does that **MAKES** it unrealistic!!!!!! Is that too much for you to grasp?

- If you need help, go ask someone older.

Roger, in that you are certainly not the one to ask for that very reason! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:02 PM
Contest to see who can make the longest post?

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:09 PM
As a matter of fact, Tag...

http://www.tolwyn.com/images/potm/EPSN0015.JPG


July 5, 2003, 10:45am
$600 Ride in the P51 Trainer
Boeing Field at the Flight Museum.

Was a bunch of fun.





Message Edited on 09/06/0302:10PM by tolwyn.com

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:14 PM
July 5th! It's my birthday! Fine day indeed...

I wish we had flying La's here in Russia LOL

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:21 PM
No, I think it's a contest on who can be more of a sputtering, stuttering fool.

"No, you seeeeeee. You are wrroonnnnnng! Eyeeee am RIIIIEEEEEEGGGGHHHT. Oh, you are so stoooooopid!"

Kinda funny, actually.

He's definately got his mind closed shut on what this is all about.

He can't grasp the concept of appropriately using PL as a way to increase realism. He has a lot of issues about the subject that he can't wrap his noodle around.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:26 PM
A longwinded poem!
------------------------

I like Padlock, I like track-ir, I played padlock before
track-ir and played No padlock before Padlock, I never had
A Hotas, I always had a mouse, I could never play my simulation when outside of my house! I joined any server and hosted servers that gave the choice, I have a top line graphics card, my monitor is big, But planes disappear even when padlock is on them at 500m. Some people say its real some say it's not, Some their pride hurt big time especially when they are shot. Those that never use padlock and they fly with those that do, There not afraid of losing or winning. Respect!! Setting a good example for YOU!

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:47 PM
I hav'nt tried IL2 online for about 18 months, I only logged on a couple of times and found virtually no PL servers running.

I don't consider PL an advantage but I do see No PL as a handicap.

I fly padlock because it gives me those fluid views I see everyday in real life as I scan my own surroundings, it just makes 'flying' such a perfect experience I can't explain.

Now I respect those who will fly without it but I just don't agree with all their arguments such as hiding on the ground.

I think IL2 makes aircraft much less visable than in RL and that is as unrealistic a PL IMO.

I really think I might give no PL a go just to prove to myself one way or another but I do't think it feels natural to me.

How many servers run PL with no externals etc these days, I fancy some online action as the AI is truly stupid at the moment.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:04 PM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- As a matter of fact, Tag...

LOL! I knew it! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:06 PM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- No, I think it's a contest on who can be more of a
- sputtering, stuttering fool.
-
- "No, you seeeeeee. You are wrroonnnnnng! Eyeeee am
- RIIIIEEEEEEGGGGHHHT. Oh, you are so stoooooopid!"
-
- Kinda funny, actually.
-
- He's definately got his mind closed shut on what
- this is all about.
-
- He can't grasp the concept of appropriately using PL
- as a way to increase realism. He has a lot of issues
- about the subject that he can't wrap his noodle
- around.

LOL! A typical responce from a guy who is out of ammo! Cant debate the facts, so just side step it and try to change the topic! Sorry towelboy.com.. Been around too long for that one to work! Nice try though!




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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:23 PM
Oboe wrote:
- I hav'nt tried IL2 online for about 18 months, I
- only logged on a couple of times and found virtually
- no PL servers running.

Your missing alot of fun! Contary to what is said here, a good portion of the servers have PL enabled... Only down side is that usally goes hand in hand with alot of other un-realistic settings being enabled.. But usally within reason!

- I don't consider PL an advantage but I do see No PL
- as a handicap.

Huh.. So an automatic find the target button is not an advantage? The ability to lock onto something you cant even see is not an advantage? Not saying you do take advantage of those un-realistic advantages.. but many do, which is why the full real servers diable the PL.

- I fly padlock because it gives me those fluid views
- I see everyday in real life as I scan my own
- surroundings,

Note.. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY is saying that the fulid motion of PL is un-realistic!! That is the one great feature about PL!! It is all the *other* things PL can do that make it unrealistic and give the users of PL an advantage over non-PL users. On that note, note that you really can NOT *scan* your own surroundings with PL!! YOU JUST CANT!! You are *tied* to the target PL is tracking.. That is if the target is to your right, and PL is tracking it, you can NOT see what is on your left.. or SIX!!! The downside of PL!! **BUT** the upside of TrackIR!! You can obtain fluid views with TrackIR and *truly* SCAN YOUR OWN SURROUNDINGS... TRUE SA!!

- it just makes 'flying' such a perfect
- experience I can't explain.

No need to explain, we all know and AGREE that fluid motions you get with PL and TrackIR and the MOUSE are more realistic then the SNAP views you get with a HAT.

- Now I respect those who will fly without it but I
- just don't agree with all their arguments such as
- hiding on the ground.

So.. than your saying that something that automatically finds the target is more real? I just dont agree.

- I think IL2 makes aircraft much less visable than in
- RL and that is as unrealistic a PL IMO.

Nobody.. and I mean NOBODY is disputing that FACT!! But keep in mind wether you use PL, HAT, MOUSE, TrackIR it will be the same visable area and resolution on your system.. If you guys really want to worrie about something, you should get off the TrackIR dispute and get mad at the people that can affored top-o-d-line vid cards and monitors.. The higher resolution and frame rate is a much bigger issue.. But one that will never be solved! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I really think I might give no PL a go just to prove
- to myself one way or another but I do't think it
- feels natural to me.

Bud.. you have to try TrackIR!! It is the closest thing to real there is todate on the PC (under 30K). The fulid motion that YOU CONTROL NOT THE PL AUTO BOT is as good as it gets!!!!

- How many servers run PL with no externals etc these
- days, I fancy some online action as the AI is truly
- stupid at the moment.

usally there is about a 50 50 mix on Hyperlobby.. But as I noted above.. Once you move away from the full real setings all bets are off.. You might find a server with PL on.. but it may also have stalls turned off too, in that most that enable PL are Quake type shoot em up servers. Fun for a few... but gets old fast!




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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:42 PM
If you don't find any padlock servers running, host your own.
You can set it anyway you like it. Just don't join no padlock games if you don't like it without PL. There's nothing worse than a guy complaining about the lack of a certain setting in a server.

I was once in a pretty much full on easy settings server (yes with padlock, no cockpit, icons, etc) and this guy joins and ridicules the settings and thus all the players in the game for using kid settings. Still he got shot down repeatedly. And guess what? Not much later i find this same dweeb in a full real server complaining about the lack of padlock. And he didn't even fly, he left immediately. Good riddance to that./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bottom line is:

Nobody is forcing anybody to join any game against his will on settings that they don't like. Check the settings to make sure and if you don't like them, get the @#%$ out.

If you're gonna join and whine about no padlock settings for a game, whether that be a coop, an online war, a dogfight or whatever, better to just let it go. Be on your way in search for another game. Let it go, don't join, don't sign up for that war. Solely stick to games where you're comfortable. Can't get any easier than that. Trust me, you'll do yourself and a whole lot of other people a big favour.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:56 PM
Pedant
Here's a hair

tagert wrote:
- Scragbat wrote:
-- PL is a simulation of a pilots gaze tracking an
-- enemy aircraft.
-
- True.
-
-- That's my opinion,
-
- Not really, it just is. Now had you said PL is more
- realistic, that would be an opinion, but saying it
- is a simulation of a pilots gaze tracking a target
- is not.
-

adlabs6
09-07-2003, 12:03 AM
Wow, a thread to argue about padlock in. I've been away too long!

Complaining about a host that doesn't enable your favorite settings? This is funny! When others complain about a host disabling icons, the response is the usual "then pick a different server and don't whine!" But oh golly! The host has disabled padlock?! This makes zero sense! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cardinal, all of the fixes you posted I'd support, with the player placed dot being preferable for me due to increased usefulness during ground attacks.


I've done a 180 on my padlock opinion. I've used the hatstick since the IL2demo days because it felt like I was "hunting" the enemy. I still use the hatstick offline, as nothing beats that thrill of the hunt for me. Hatstick takes skill though, and it was fun to develop those skills.

But when online these days, why should I bother? Most people use the padlock online, and there's really no reason to handicap myself for the sake of some arcane ideal that really doesn't apply to most dogfight "each man for himself" servers anyway.

My enjoyment factor has increase ten fold since I've started using the padlock online with "padlock enemy" and padlock next" mapped on the top of my X45. Hit "padlock enemy" and I have an instant target, hit "padlock next" and I have another. Fly and shoot. Have a good time. This is way easier than when I used to sweat it and look for enemy planes the hard way, and the results are the same either way.

It's just easier and less stressing, and for me, having a good time is why I'm here. I may as well make the most of it!

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 12:35 AM
adlabs6 wrote:
- Wow, a thread to argue about padlock in. I've been
- away too long!
-
- Complaining about a host that doesn't enable your
- favorite settings? This is funny! When others
- complain about a host disabling icons, the response
- is the usual "then pick a different server and don't
- whine!" But oh golly! The host has disabled
- padlock?! This makes zero sense! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- Cardinal, all of the fixes you posted I'd support,
- with the player placed dot being preferable for me
- due to increased usefulness during ground attacks.
-
-
- I've done a 180 on my padlock opinion. I've used the
- hatstick since the IL2demo days because it felt like
- I was "hunting" the enemy. I still use the hatstick
- offline, as nothing beats that thrill of the hunt
- for me. Hatstick takes skill though, and it was fun
- to develop those skills.
-
- But when online these days, why should I bother?
- Most people use the padlock online, and there's
- really no reason to handicap myself for the sake of
- some arcane ideal that really doesn't apply to most
- dogfight "each man for himself" servers anyway.
-
- My enjoyment factor has increase ten fold since I've
- started using the padlock online with "padlock
- enemy" and padlock next" mapped on the top of my
- X45. Hit "padlock enemy" and I have an instant
- target, hit "padlock next" and I have another. Fly
- and shoot. Have a good time. This is way easier than
- when I used to sweat it and look for enemy planes
- the hard way, and the results are the same either
- way.
-
- It's just easier and less stressing, and for me,
- having a good time is why I'm here. I may as well
- make the most of it!
-

Good post!

Like I said, sometimes you just want to join a DF server and blast away without waiting 15min to find, track and possibly even surprise a target with a bounce. That is if it wasn't for the fact you can hear a plane behind you at 700+ meters away, which just doesn't seem right but anyway..

Sometimes though, there is no bigger thrill than joining a FR server and using the sky, compass and your own skills to find and track a target. It really opens up the use of more realistic tactics and hence a bigger satisfaction for making that one kill that didn't see you coming! Or vice versa for that matter. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FR coops are more challenging, and satisfying for those reasons. Especially when you know you can't just respawn. One life to live if you know my meaning. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Again, it's the easy acquisition of a target as well as the cloud exploit that makes me prefer to just stick to the no-PL servers most of the time so that I know when I get beat (which is often and I don't mind /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) it was because I got beat at my own game.

I don't see anything wrong with PL as a tracking tool because hat is clumsy, but the big "here I am" box doesn't let you lose an enemy once acquired as happens to me all the time when he hits the deck or uses a good maneuver to hide under my cowling as I try to follow where he's going.

I say stick to your own kind for the most part and you won't be blaming someone else for your own poor skills or mistakes which helps you to get better. Sometimes it's even a good challenge to join an "arcade" server and use FR settings on your own end to practice.

In the end it comes down to the pilot or circumstances anyway.

Have fun and don't blame others for having fun thier way. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 12:56 AM
Scragbat wrote:
- Pedant
- Here's a hair

Ive split smaller, but either way your not going to earn it this way! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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Message Edited on 09/06/0304:57PM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:04 AM
Padlock and zoom view are the keys to success in the online dogfight arena. If you don't like padlock, you might as well go play FS2004. Full real or easy settings, they are both a bad way to play this game. Funny how the dull real crowd thinks changing 1 setting from full real automatically turns the game into "arcade". At least they can host their own servers and badge them "full real" so the rest of us know where NOT to go.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:09 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Padlock and zoom view are the keys to success in the
- online dogfight arena.

Not ture.

- If you don't like padlock, you might as well go
- play FS2004.

Also not true.

- Full real or easy settings, they are both a bad
- way to play this game.

Disagree.

- Funny how the dull real crowd thinks changing 1
- setting from full real automatically turns the game
- into "arcade".

Like no stalls?

- At least they can host their own servers and badge
- them "full real" so the rest of us know where NOT
- to go.

GOD I WISH!! If that was only TRUE we wouldnt be having this discussion!!



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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:48 AM
Tagert, the strongest bullets miss over the head of a mental midget like you.

And I was IN the P-51; not standing next to it, thankyouverymuch. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Refuting posts and restating your opinion in no way comes close to having an argument, or debating a subject.

You are not debating a subject, you are merely stomping up and down crying NO YOU ARE WRONG I AM RIGHT over and over infinitum adnauseum.

Your entire position deprecates intellectual debate to a mere circus act.

You epitomize the Monty Python skit, "Having an Argument."
I have a two year old daughter that debates better than you do. Restating your opinion over and over again--with insults and name calling--only makes you look about 15 years old.

You are a "difficulty setting" fan boy, when we're talking about what is close to reality -- you know, outside your computer room -- and how PL more effectively reflects reality than fumbing brutally around with POV hats, and juggling mice and numberpad keys to keep a target in view--for those without a TrackIR either through budgetary contraints, hardware contraints, or financial constraints.

You also can't grasp the concept of "appropriate use" of a feature.

You also can't grasp the notion that PL in IL2 is not magic fairy dust; nor does it make any player a better pilot; ergo, it cannot possibly be argued that it introduces disparity to the "playing field."

Everyone I know with TrackIR also uses PL.They didn't get TrackIR to replace padlock.

One of many posts in this thread is to suggest that people participating in VEF -- who choose not to host their own large-scale stat based on-line war -- are running into such disparity due to the fact that those with TrackIR do have somewhat of an advantage because they don't need to take their 2 hands away to use the mouse to look around their airplane.

And when you're dogfighting, it's impossible, given the limitations of the view system sans mouse, to keep your view upon your target without the AID of PL.

The notion that all scenarios lead to some kind of notion that PL is picking targets out of the thin air is ridiculous. You still have to 1. Find the target and 2. Identify the target - even with the highlighted targeted plane which is indifferent of color given the appropriate server settings.

If you're trying to get over some sort of shame of your inability to grasp the concept, with logical references to reality, then no amount of me trying to spoon feed you intelligent discussion is going to help.

It's sad, but true. Nice try debating with the big boys, son.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:58 AM
Frankly speaking, isn't it matter of money? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Let's organize TrackIR Fund and help PL lovers.



Sorry, just kidding. I know we can't help who don't wanna be helped. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif





Message Edited on 09/07/0310:00AM by TooCooL34

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 02:06 AM
If $119 is too much money, you need to spend less time playing this game, and more time flipping burgers.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 02:38 AM
tolwyn.com wrote:

- And when you're dogfighting, it's impossible, given
- the limitations of the view system sans mouse, to
- keep your view upon your target without the AID of
- PL.

It's only impossible for the inexperienced.

And the fact that online FB wars are setup without PL, should be a clear indication for padlockaddicts, to simply stay away from these wars. If it has no padlock in it, a padlock addict has no business there.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:10 AM
You people have what is called "extremist" point of view. And it's a clear indication of a lack of intelligence.


Dnmy wrote:
- tolwyn.com wrote:
-
-- And when you're dogfighting, it's impossible, given
-- the limitations of the view system sans mouse, to
-- keep your view upon your target without the AID of
-- PL.
-
- It's only impossible for the inexperienced.

No. It is impossible to do it with any sort of competence.

Without Track IR
Without using the Mouse or the keypad you are left with:

The POV hat.

Anyone that thinks using this is "more real" than using PL to augment what you can and would do in real life is a nut bag; plain and simple.


You are limiting yourself and lessening the intended gaming experience for no reason whatsoever.



- And the fact that online FB wars are setup without
- PL, should be a clear indication for padlockaddicts,


This is a completely ridculous barb. At no time did Cardinal or myself indicate we were padlockaddicts. We have intelligently and with great articulation expressed the logical reasons why PL is MORE realistic than the gaming experience without it.

PL is the visual equivilent of elevator trim. To fight fatigue. It's tiring to constantly move the mouse or hit the numpad or use the POV when it's simply unnecessary to go through that trouble.

It's regrettable that you haven't the mental capacity to grasp that.

- to simply stay away from these wars. If it has no
- padlock in it, a padlock addict has no business
- there.

So let the game play you, and not play the game? Introduce added "unrealism" for the sake of not using PL?

This cannot and will not ever make sense to a real pilot playing this game.

I still fly VEF as I don't NEED padlock in order to support my team -- but I do believe it makes the game more realistic insofar as (broken record time) it authorizes the computer to automate something as simple as tracking a target that is in site of your eyes that you would normally do yourself in a "real" situation.

It's a true shame that people don't realize or can't understand that PL automates the mundane.

It's like you guys think it would be HARD, in real life, to keep track of a moving airplane through your immmediate airspace.

If you believe that, then there will never be any convincing those grossly intellectually challenged people.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:13 AM
I don't use trackIR (motion sensor does not operate at an acceptible refresh rate for my taste ... discerning gamer here) but even if I did I would still prefer to have padlock enabled.

I am the type of ace who will play and win with any settings. That means I know how to use padlock well of course. And once you know it well it's one of those things that make the game better so leave it on. It's cool you lock on someone, you hit zoom view for the ID then decide a course of action. Or you do a high speed pass in traffic and when you come around you know where the guy is. It also helps counteract the resticted monitor view and pilot univision. It's all good. People that are against it are just scardy cats. "Ohhh I want to hide" Just fight and get it over with. Thats why online wars suck. Spend an hour to shoot a plane down YAY. I am not surprised that they turned off padlock, because it is their job to make things as boring and confusing as possible.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:22 AM
Now we're scardy cats? Good one Ray.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:25 AM
Back to the point, I guess, to summarize this entire thread.


The decision to disable PL on the basis that it is "less realistic" over having it enabled is flawed.

So it is also that flawed logic that prevents many from enjoying VEF (as an example); unless they have the appropriate hardware (TrackIR) which in many peoples' minds, introducing a disparity that need not exist.


This isn't necessarily my opinion, I'm just intelligent enough to be able to read the messages here and ascertain what the POINT is.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:28 AM
If you guys are so dead set your right about padlock. Why start a thread to argue about it?

I don't believe this thread has changed anybodys mind.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:29 AM
Well, although I respect Ray's point of view, I don't agree with it.

The ZOOM feature is another matter.

1. Cool feature for gun films.
2. Augments the resolution restrictions placed on us by our hardware.

I can appreciate that.
I can't use it because it just screws me right the hell up. But I use the WIDE FOV during take off or cruise.


Also, I disagree with the notion that online wars suck. VEF is single-handidly the most fun I've had playing IL2:FB; unless it's with my friends in a very organized cooperative environment.

Learning to navigate (took me 2 weeks, and I still get lost) introduced a whole new facet to the game that I hadn't experience before.

It's quasi-realistic insofar as you may NOT run into the enemy, but that threat remains. It's good adrenaline.

Somepeople (and myself occasionally) like that fast action Dogfight server...

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:30 AM
BuzzU...

In the hopes to change other people's perspective.

What other reason for debate?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:35 AM
Do you think it's working?

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:56 AM
Wow, that RBJ did hit the nail on the head. At least for those with the brains to see it. And Tagert you F()*&cking ******, I do use enhanced mode on track IR. Go find some five year olds to preach to and F)(*ck off...


Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 04:00 AM
True to form Jumo. We can always count on your kind words.


Insert your flame here.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 04:03 AM
Your F)(&&cking right you can you c^%$nt.


Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 04:32 AM
Ha ha ha.

Buzz. It may be working. There are many who lurk that do not post. Who's to say.

For whatever reason is a GD forum for? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:02 AM
I must chime in here and back up my buddy Tolwyn. We want to convice people that padlock adds a lot of realism for a lot of players here - of course most in the popular online wars want the highest levels of realism (within reason). We think that padlock, as a built in option is more realistic than mouseview or hat view.

I have not used track IR; maybe I'll buy it in the future. As such I can't say that it's more or less realistic, FOR ME, than just using padlock. One thing for sure though, padlock is an excellent aid in simulating a real pilots visual track on an airborn target. If you want to call it a 'crutch', well fine. Using your computer in any way to simulate any aspect of flying is a crutch then.

I've flown over a thousand sorties while in the USAF, flying small jets in a training environment that is very traffic dense. Your head is always on a swivel, looking for traffic conflicts, keeping your eye on your formation, etc. Padlock gives a reasonable representation, TO ME, for the nearly effortless Mk1 eyeball tracking system that most of us are naturally endowed with. It feels right using padlock in the sim, as it allows a more natural and therefore realistic management of flight tasks. In lieu of that option, mouse look or hat view is rediculous (TO ME).

Everyone here has their opinion of what options will best give them suspension of disbelief with regard to their sim-play. Or their fun factor. What I think is occasionally overlooked is that 'more difficult' options do not mean more realistic. Of course, this has been said before.

Maybe Track IR would be more realistic than padlock for me. I don't know, nor do I care at the moment. For others without it, it is my opinion that padlock is an essential realism option. Sure it can be optimized for even more realism. But as is, I think it increases realism.

As T already stated!

Barfly
Executive Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

adlabs6
09-07-2003, 06:24 AM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- The decision to disable PL on the basis that it is
- "less realistic" over having it enabled is flawed.

This is a good summary, though perhaps a bit narrow.

Hardline disabling of ANY feature because the "realism" button says "it's more real" is simply a sign of not fully thinking through the expectations of the server's likely audience.

Disabling (or enabling) settings due to personal preferences of "more/less realism" remains completely valid if the server is intended to serve such an audience, however.

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Message Edited on 09/07/0305:30AM by adlabs6

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:12 AM
Jumoschwanz wrote:
- Wow, that RBJ did hit the nail on the head.

Disagree.

- At least for those with the brains to see it.

Disagree.

- And Tagert you F()*&cking ******,

Now now Jewmostench.. is that any way to talk? Does your mom know your up this late?

- I do use enhanced mode on track IR.

Huh.. Ok, So what is your malfunction than? In that I was giving you the benifit of the doublt... And now you proclame to one and all that you use it.. But are just to dumb to know how to use it?

- Go find some five year olds to preach to

From your responce to someone trying to help it is clear that I allready am.

- and F)(*ck off...

Yes... very clear.. if not younger than five.



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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:21 AM
You clearly lack the experience with a hatswitch to be able to know what is possible. That is lack of intelligence on your part.

I know from personal experience that it is very well possible with a hatswitch to track bandits during a dogfight because that's exactly how i used to do it before i even used trackIR. And i was one of the first ever to use trackIR in IL2. The way i track bandits with trackIR now differs a little bit from the way i used to do it with the hatswitch, in that it is now handsfree and stepless. But the technique of keeping bandits in track is exactly the same.

I am not saying that tracking bandits with a hatswitch is more realistic. I can tell you though that it requires an artificial skill with the hatswitch. But you forget that you apply that artificial skill very quickly. After a while tracking bandits with the hatswitch becomes very natural, something you do without even thinking about it. Which is exactly what mimicks real pilot looking behaviour, the real pilot would also track bandits, looking around without even thinking about it. The guys who play without padlock are all likely to have that hatswitch skill. The guys who can't play without padlock simply lack that hatswitch skill and think it's impossible to do with a hatswitch.

I mentioned the word padlockaddicts as a matter of speech. With that i mean the group of players who complain when there is no padlock, for whom padlock is the only way to be slightly competitive. They're the ones who always seem to wanna blame it on the host having trackIR when a game has no padlock. LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Little do they know that you can track bandits with (for instance) the hatswitch.

Furthermore, the padlock addicts will always go on about it that internal padlock has more realistic features over other settings, but that's not the case. It's just a difficulty setting to make certain things easier, just like no cockpit, icons or externals. They're in the same class of difficulty setting.

A former fighter pilot always preaches that external padlock gives the best representation of what it was like. So in that light, externals would give more realistic gameplay than with padlock. In real life you'd have a lot better visibility than what the cockpit view offers, so no cockpit setting is no less realistic than padlock. Icons make up for depth perception and lack of resolution, so like padlock they mimick a realistic feature.

In short, if you'd want to play it the most realistic way, you should play it on medium settings./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Then you can have all the realism you want, no cockpit, icons, externals and padlock. And if you don't wanna use any of these features, you can either turn them off, or simply not use them.

tolwyn.com wrote:

- No. It is impossible to do it with any sort of
- competence.
-
- Without Track IR
- Without using the Mouse or the keypad you are left
- with:
-
- The POV hat.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:27 AM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- Tagert, the strongest bullets miss over the head of
- a mental midget like you.

Really?

- And I was IN the P-51; not standing next to it,
- thankyouverymuch.

Send me your address and Ill send you a gold start.

- Refuting posts and restating your opinion in no way
- comes close to having an argument, or debating a
- subject.

Didnt refute, I answere every one of your questions.. You have yet to address let alone answer one of mine to you.

- You are not debating a subject, you are merely
- stomping up and down crying NO YOU ARE WRONG I AM
- RIGHT over and over infinitum adnauseum.
- Your entire position deprecates intellectual debate
- to a mere circus act.
- You epitomize the Monty Python skit, "Having an
- Argument."

Ok Clinton.. Let me know when you done with the tanget topic personal stuff and want to get back on the topic at hand.

- I have a two year old daughter that debates better
- than you do. Restating your opinion over and over
- again--with insults and name calling--only makes you
- look about 15 years old.

That poor kid.

- You are a "difficulty setting" fan boy, when we're
- talking about what is close to reality -- you know,
- outside your computer room -- and how PL more
- effectively reflects reality than fumbing brutally
- around with POV hats, and juggling mice and
- numberpad keys to keep a target in view--for those
- without a TrackIR either through budgetary
- contraints, hardware contraints, or financial
- constraints.

Yawn.. Ok Clinton.. Let me know when you done with the tanget topic personal stuff and want to get back on the topic at hand.

- You also can't grasp the concept of "appropriate
- use" of a feature.
-
- You also can't grasp the notion that PL in IL2 is
- not magic fairy dust; nor does it make any player a
- better pilot; ergo, it cannot possibly be argued
- that it introduces disparity to the "playing field."

Ok Clinton.. Let me know when you done with the tanget topic personal stuff and want to get back on the topic at hand.

- Everyone I know with TrackIR also uses PL.They
- didn't get TrackIR to replace padlock.

LOL!

- One of many posts in this thread is to suggest that
- people participating in VEF -- who choose not to
- host their own large-scale stat based on-line war --
- are running into such disparity due to the fact that
- those with TrackIR do have somewhat of an advantage
- because they don't need to take their 2 hands away
- to use the mouse to look around their airplane.

LOL! Same lame argument they tried 10 years ago when HATS first showed up on Joysticks!

- And when you're dogfighting, it's impossible, given
- the limitations of the view system sans mouse, to
- keep your view upon your target without the AID of
- PL.

BOLD FACE LIE! Well.. On 2nd thought.. it could be true for you though! But please dont assume the rest of the world is as handycapped as you are.

- The notion that all scenarios lead to some kind of
- notion that PL is picking targets out of the thin
- air is ridiculous.

LOL! Totally not true at all.

- You still have to
- 1. Find the - target and
- 2. Identify the target - even with the
- highlighted targeted plane which is indifferent of
- color given the appropriate server settings.

Your wrong about number 1... still!

- If you're trying to get over some sort of shame of
- your inability to grasp the concept, with logical
- references to reality, then no amount of me trying
- to spoon feed you intelligent discussion is going to
- help.

Ok Clinton.. Let me know when you done with the tanget topic personal stuff and want to get back on the topic at hand.

- It's sad, but true. Nice try debating with the big
- boys, son.

Operative word here is BOY.

Oh... are you done? Wheuuu.. nothing as sad as a guy who can not admit he made a mistake.. So, now that you feel better maybe you might want to answer a few questions? Are you up to the task? I didnt think so. But hey, thanks for playing the game, you can pick up your prize on the way out.




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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:37 AM
Tagert. You have just again, proven every one of my points.
Your words serve only to spotlight your intellectual shortcomings.

Thank you! I couldn't ASK for better support to my cause.

The one thing that separates a liberal from a conservative is common sense. Conservatives have it. Liberals don't. I have common sense. You fail the mental skills to employ it; yet you call me Clinton, which is humorous in itself.

I suppose you're going to tell me that those that support PL also give their ailing grandparents dog food? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Message Edited on 09/07/0312:38AM by tolwyn.com

adlabs6
09-07-2003, 08:42 AM
Dnmy wrote:
- You clearly lack the experience with a hatswitch to
- be able to know what is possible....

Hatswitch use is a skilled art. In my hands, my hatswitch tracking is more comfortable than even head tracking. I can keep a plane tracked even during agressive dogfights, and mainly if his camo works well do I lose them. This is only because that's the main way I've played for the past year and a half in IL2, and old habits hang around.

I had a head tracking setup on my PC so I could better make a decision on a TrackIR purchase. I spent several hours getting good at using the head tracking, but still after a couple weeks I am happy back with my hatswitch, which is faster, easier, and more precise under combat pressures. I didn't buy TrackIR in the end.

But don't discount the hatswitch as unusable! It just takes practice, tweaking settings, and more practice, like anything else.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:55 AM
Thank you for proving my point Adlabs.

You and i know what is possible with the hatswitch.
Nevertheless not even knowing what the headtracking device was that you had, i can say that it can't be compared to what the trackIR offers. But then again, you'd have to try trackIR properly(!) to be convinced.

But use what you're comfortable with, i know it wouldn't make a difference in effectiveness whether you'd use a hatswitch or trackIR. It's just that using trackIR is more fun, because it's handsfree and it conveys that sense of being in the cockpit and looking around, better than anything else i've used.

adlabs6 wrote:
- Dnmy wrote:
-- You clearly lack the experience with a hatswitch to
-- be able to know what is possible....
-
- Hatswitch use is a skilled art. In my hands, my
- hatswitch tracking is more comfortable than even
- head tracking. I can keep a plane tracked even
- during agressive dogfights, and mainly if his camo
- works well do I lose them. This is only because
- that's the main way I've played for the past year
- and a half in IL2, and old habits hang around.
-
- I had a head tracking setup on my PC so I could
- better make a decision on a TrackIR purchase. I
- spent several hours getting good at using the head
- tracking, but still after a couple weeks I am happy
- back with my hatswitch, which is faster, easier, and
- more precise under combat pressures. I didn't buy
- TrackIR in the end.
-
- But don't discount the hatswitch as unusable! It
- just takes practice, tweaking settings, and more
- practice, like anything else.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Message Edited on 09/07/0309:57AM by Dnmy

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:59 AM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- You people have what is called "extremist" point of
- view. And it's a clear indication of a lack of
- intelligence.

Come on.. You really can not be this thick? Please tell me your just trying to get a rise out of people? Nobody could be this dumb right?

- No. It is impossible to do it with any sort of
- competence.

Not true.. People have been doing it for YEARS in all sorts of sims.

- Without Track IR
- Without using the Mouse or the keypad you are left
- with:
-
- The POV hat.

Which is a very good view system.. Mater of FACT the POV HAT has an ADVANTAGE over the mouse and TrackIR. The ADVANTAGE is the ability to change your view at a instant! That is to say I can go from looking over my left shoulder to looking over my right shoulder in an instant. And for towelboy.com that means I can change my view MUCH faster with the POV HAT! Much MUCH faster than the mouse and TrackIR can do it. Some people.. who have a BRAIN realise that is an ADVANTAGE! Instant rock steady views are an ADVANTAGE! Now please dont confuse the word ADVANTAGE with REAL! In that like PL the POV has advantages over TrackIR. The only thing TrackIR has over the other views is the imersion factor.. that FLUID MOTION that LOOKS so REALISTIC.

- Anyone that thinks using this is "more real" than
- using PL to augment what you can and would do in
- real life is a nut bag; plain and simple.

Only because you do not know what the term "more real" means.

- You are limiting yourself and lessening the intended
- gaming experience for no reason whatsoever.

Not ture, it is basically you inability to understand the diferance between REALISTIC TATICS and REALISTIC LOOKING. PL and TrackIR are both very REALISTIC LOOKING in the way they mimic the movement of the pilots head. Only problem is PL has other ADVANTAGES that make it UNREALISTIC. All those things I mentioned in every one of my posts to you, that you side step each time and then acuse me of side stepping the issues.

- This is a completely ridculous barb. At no time did
- Cardinal or myself indicate we were padlockaddicts.

But you have both implyed that the reason PL gets disable is because those HOSTS have TrackIR and want an advantage. Which is not true at all, espically when you consder the FACT that PL and the POV both have ADVANTAGES over TrackIR! TrackIR has only one thing going for it.. A better *FEEL* and thus a better *EXPERANCE* and thus a better *IMERSION* which makes for a very good time.. But no advantge over PL or the POV.

- We have intelligently and with great articulation
- expressed the logical reasons why PL is MORE
- realistic than the gaming experience without it.

ROTFLMAO! Wheeeeeeeeeu.. Now, that was funny.. Thanks towelboy.com that one brought a tear to my eye!

- PL is the visual equivilent of elevator trim.
- To fight fatigue. It's tiring to constantly move the
- mouse or hit the numpad or use the POV when it's
- simply unnecessary to go through that trouble.

WOW! What kind of fat slob are you?

- It's regrettable that you haven't the mental
- capacity to grasp that.

LOL! One thing I have learned in life.. Any guy who has to say in a post more than once how everyone else is lacking in mental capacity is usally just trying to hide thier own lack of mental capacity.

- So let the game play you, and not play the game?

WOW.. I think I have figured it out.. PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE AND STEP AWAY FROM THE PC!

- Introduce added "unrealism" for the sake of not
- using PL?

Only true if one buys into the sale of PL being more real with it's advantage over the other viewing systems. And to date I have not seen anyone say they think the ABILITY to find a target you dont even see, or the ABILITY to maintain a lock in a cloud, or the ABILITY to put a big target box around the target is MORE REALISTIC.. As a mater of fact I have seen where even the PRO PL people admit they would like to see features added to LIMIT the ADVANTAGES of PL.

- This cannot and will not ever make sense to a real
- pilot playing this game.

LOL! Here comes the picture of him sitting in a mustang again! Hmmmm I wonder if towelboy.com is the new home of Richard Ordway?

- I still fly VEF as I don't NEED padlock in order to
- support my team -- but I do believe it makes the
- game more realistic insofar as (broken record time)
- it authorizes the computer to automate something as
- simple as tracking a target that is in site of your
- eyes that you would normally do yourself in a "real"
- situation.

ROTFL! "Something as SIMPLE as tracking a target" LOL! He actually said that? towelboy.com it is the "that is NOT in site of your eyes" we are talking about when we say PL is not realistic.. Please tell me your side stepping that on perpose and are really not that thick!

- It's a true shame that people don't realize or can't
- understand that PL automates the mundane.

LOL! Well.. There is one thing for sure here.. they hand out pilot licenes to anyone with the time and moeny. That much I have learned in this thread!!

- It's like you guys think it would be HARD, in real
- life, to keep track of a moving airplane through
- your immmediate airspace.

So what part of PL tracking a target behind the cockpit, wings, clouds, ground clutter, etc do you not understand?

- If you believe that, then there will never be any
- convincing those grossly intellectually challenged
- people.

LOL! Hey you keep telling yourself that.. What ever gets you to sleep at night! Or what ever it takes to justify in your mind why it is you.. A REAL PILOT gets shot down so much in VVS missions!



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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:02 AM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- Tagert. You have just again, proven every one of my
- points.
- Your words serve only to spotlight your intellectual
- shortcomings.
-
- Thank you! I couldn't ASK for better support to my
- cause.
-
- The one thing that separates a liberal from a
- conservative is common sense. Conservatives have it.
- Liberals don't. I have common sense. You fail the
- mental skills to employ it; yet you call me Clinton,
- which is humorous in itself.
-
- I suppose you're going to tell me that those that
- support PL also give their ailing grandparents dog
- food?

WOW.. you really need to cut back on the meds.. or double up on them! One thing is for sure, you are losing it big time!



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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 12:03 PM
Cardinal25 wrote in the post that started this thread:

- PL should be a dot that is controled by the player
- (in the center or the scree or what ever. In order
- to lock up a aircraft (or ground object) the user
- should have to place the dot on or close to what
- ever it is that s/he is padlocking.

LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Wrong

I'll tell you why as well:

Because a padlock like that would totally destroy the purpose of padlock. In the thick of a multiplane furball with lines of sight rapidly changing, the last thing the padlock user would want, is to be fumbling with hatswitch/mouse to put a dot on a target. That would defeat the purpose of padlock entirely. The guy wanting to use padlock would be extremely busy operating the mouse or hat trying to acquire his target. And fumbling with hatswitches or mouse is exactly the thing padlock is supposed to prevent.

Hey don't get me wrong, it's fine by me if padlockusers would want it that way, but it won't make padlock better or more realistic. In fact, as soon as the heavy maneuvering would start with rapid line of sight changes, the padlock user would be needing padlock to put that dot on target in the first place.

Plus it would be highly unrealistic as well. Deciding to track a target is automatic, seeing is targeting, whether that be from the corner of your eyes or right in front of the gunsight. Face it, padlock is easy because it was meant to be easy from the getgo. Has been easy for as long as i can remember all the way back to Falcon3. Name any sim with good padlock and it's been easy to use, as it should be. Because that's exactly what it's supposed to mimick: a pilot tracking a target in a natural way without having to think twice about it. If a real pilot can do it in an easy way, padlock should only mimick that. If you want padlock in a sim, you should also take padlock's imperfections for granted, see them for what they are and use them as you see fit.

Don't know why there is this need from padlock users to make sure the radar search can not be abused. First of all, the radar search feature of padlock is good. Secondly, radar search can NEVER be eliminated with any good padlock. Downsizing of max. padlock range only mimicks an extremely shortsighted virtual pilot who can not see and track anything beyond 3km. Which is totally ridiculous, because in real life the real life pilot would be able to spot ID and track aircraft at 20 + miles.

The sad thing is that suggestions like these come from padlock users themselves. They don't even realize it but they suggest more to break padlock than to make it better. All out of some sense of trying to make up for padlock's imperfections.

So let me help you out of that dream. Padlock is imperfect and always will have imperfections and more so the closer you want it to be as in real life. Simply accept the imperfections for what they are, and instead of striving for the impossible task to make it as perfect as real life, lobby to make it as good as it can be. And it can be good.
Padlock is supposed to mimick something that is easy, automatic. So why not let it be like that?
I'll name some prerequisites for a good padlock:

- should have a button to automatically lock the nearest threat (not present in FB)
- should never lose lock unless explicitly wanted by the player (not present in FB)
- shouldn't lose lock when target is perfectly visible (not present in FB)
- should perfectly centre the target in the middle of the screen so a triangle would not be nescessary (not present in FB)
- should at least be able to lock anything padlockable that is within visible range, dot range included. (not present in FB)
- should be fast to cater for lack of peripheral vision (present in FB, can be adjusted)
- player should be able to look away from the locked target in any direction, and when desired have the view automatically return to it again. (not present in FB)

These are all things that would make a padlock as good as it should be, sorta like EAW, CFS series padlock. So instead of whining about lack of padlock in no padlock games, the padlock guys should be lobbying to have their padlock improved, not neutered. Which is more constructive anyway.

Message Edited on 09/07/0301:12PM by Dnmy

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 12:50 PM
Dnmy wrote:
- tolwyn.com wrote:
-
-- And when you're dogfighting, it's impossible, given
-- the limitations of the view system sans mouse, to
-- keep your view upon your target without the AID of
-- PL.
-
- It's only impossible for the inexperienced.

Can't agree with you Dnmy, I've played FB a great deal and I find it's just impossible to follow an opponent without p/l or TIR. You Could do it with the mouse, but you'd also need an extra arm to keep steering the aircraft at the same time.

I use TIR and p/l, which neatly solves the problem.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:50 PM
Sorry Rocketdog,

you may have played FB a great deal, but i've been playing certain massive multiplayer online sims even before IL2. In those sims nobody uses padlock/trackIR/mouse so all the tracking is done with the hatswitch or with the numpad. So don't be so quick to say it is impossible just because you can't do it. There are a great many people who can do exactly what you deem impossible and they have been doing so for years and years. That you haven't found it possible is only because you've never been shown how to do it.

So as an extra i'll tell you how you could setup your 8 way hatswitch to do it: Assign all the possible horizontal viewing directions to their respective hatpositions on your 8 way hatswitch, with the EXCEPTION of hat forward, which should be mapped to forward up view. Now assign 1 button to the UP view, that will be the UP view modifier. The UP view modifier in combination with the hatswitch, will give you all the nescessary views to look out of the cockpit. Consecutive viewpositions overlap so you won't miss anything switching between views. I'd furthermore suggest to use wide view at all times. Then it's like Adlabs mentioned: practice.

Ofcourse you can also assign a DOWN view modifier button as well to be able to look at the instruments. Use the toggle to enable snapviews, which has the added bonus that you don't have to assign a hatswitch position to foward view, because on release of the hat, the view will snap back to forward automatically.

This is just one way how guys who use snapviews go about it. Tracking their targets solely with the hatswitch. And if you're practiced with it you can keep multiple targets in check not just one. Like i said before, it's only impossible to those inexperienced. If you learn it this way, it has the added bonus that you'll learn WHERE to look for the bandits and WHEN, even in the thickest of dogfights. And that is the key to being succesful in online dogfights. Ofcourse using padlock is very nice but it doesn't teach you that.


adlabs6 wrote:

- Hatswitch use is a skilled art. In my hands, my
- hatswitch tracking is more comfortable than even
- head tracking. I can keep a plane tracked even
- during agressive dogfights, and mainly if his camo
- works well do I lose them. This is only because
- that's the main way I've played for the past year
- and a half in IL2, and old habits hang around.

- But don't discount the hatswitch as unusable! It
- just takes practice, tweaking settings, and more
- practice, like anything else.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 04:21 PM
tagert wrote:
- The only thing TrackIR has
- over the other views is the imersion factor.. that
- FLUID MOTION that LOOKS so REALISTIC.

You obviously get off more on the fact that you are playing full real than what is actually true, because no way the motion sensor of trackIR refreshes high enough to be considered fluid. If you can stand to use trackIR for pan-viewing in games than you probably can't tell the visual difference between vsync on or off either. You probably don't mind frame rates dipping into the 20's also because when you use trackIR, even if your frames rate never goes below 100 when you are panning it will just look like 20fps being rendered at 100fps.

You would rather argue about whether padlock conforms to full real instead of whether it is good for the game. Well, it is a setting that has things on both sides of the coin in that regard. You can use it to do some things that make the game more realistic, and you can use it to do some things that are (semi) unrealistic.


- But you have both implyed that the reason PL gets
- disable is because those HOSTS have TrackIR and want
- an advantage. Which is not true at all, espically
- when you consder the FACT that PL and the POV both
- have ADVANTAGES over TrackIR!

Your logic has broken down here. Listen to what you just said "Padlock does not get disabled by trackIR hosts so they can exploit their trackIR, especially because padlock is better than trackIR" See? Your kicker actually supports the argument against you.


- TrackIR has only one
- thing going for it.. A better *FEEL* and thus a
- better *EXPERANCE* and thus a better *IMERSION*
- which makes for a very good time.. But no advantge
- over PL or the POV.


The worst part about no-padlock is full real furballs. This is where the trackIR users have an advantage. This game can try to be full real all it wants but right now it is at best the equivalent of playing basketball with a scuba mask on (and 1 eye taped shut). You talk about *FEEL* and *EXPERANCE* and *IMERSION* well if thats what you covet then play with the cockpit off. As Bill Murray said in 'CaddyShack' "Be the ball" well, "Be the plane" if you want to enter a state of true nirvana. Play with icons so there is much more thinking ahead instead of just flying towards dots and seeing what happens.


- ROTFLMAO!
- WOW!
- LOL!
- WOW.. PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE AND STEP AWAY FROM THE PC!

You are not really rolling on the floor laughing out loud. In fact I bet you didn't even crack a smile. People who post these things are usually frustrated and out of bullets.


- I have not seen anyone say they
- think the ABILITY to find a target you dont even
- see, or the ABILITY to maintain a lock in a cloud,
- or the ABILITY to put a big target box around the
- target is MORE REALISTIC.. As a mater of fact I have
- seen where even the PRO PL people admit they would
- like to see features added to LIMIT the ADVANTAGES
- of PL.

Doesn't matter what the pro's think, we would all like to see options for host adjustable padlock (ex range and independence of id from icon setting)

Your other concerns are trivial however. Padlock locks stuff that you CAN see, thats the whole point. It's not that you couldn't see it, it's that you didn't look hard enough. Ground object are a different story but I am an ace who never needs to lock onto ground objects (don't even assign that button)

Then you talk about the ability to maintain lock in a cloud. You are just some paranoid full realist. Padlock looses lock in clouds just like if something goes under your nose you will loose the lock. You are refering to some obscure exploit that where the person uses instant view forward with padlock. Well, let me tell you, I am an expert in the art of cloud evasion and have never had a problem. And if this little exploit is true, then it should just be fixed. There is no reason to hold it against what padlock is, it is so trivial I will have to borrow one of your "LOL"s.

And then you talk about the magical abilty to put a triangle around the locked target. Hey numbnuts! They added that so people can tell what dot is locked. People asked for it, and they got it. It's for when there are numerous planes in the sky and you want your view to follow a specific one, then you know if it is locked or not instead of the one behind it, or the one to the side.


- LOL!
- ROTFL!
- LOL!
- LOL!
- LOL!

Geesh what a crackpot.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:42 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:

- You obviously get off more on the fact that you are
- playing full real than what is actually true,
- because no way the motion sensor of trackIR
- refreshes high enough to be considered fluid. If you
- can stand to use trackIR for pan-viewing in games
- than you probably can't tell the visual difference
- between vsync on or off either. You probably don't
- mind frame rates dipping into the 20's also because
- when you use trackIR, even if your frames rate never
- goes below 100 when you are panning it will just
- look like 20fps being rendered at 100fps.

Sorry Ray, as much as you have some good points of view on certain subjects you really aren't entitled to speak authoritatively about TIR. You have never tried it and don't understand how viewing works in the game with the device as much as you think you do.

Therefore your opinions about it's usefulness are of no consequence and based out of bias not experience.

In other words you are simply talking out of your a$$. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you want me to go into the finer details of why your "refresh/polling" rate argument doesn't really apply, yes, even for "experienced gamers" I will but I suspect you're more interested in embracing your bias.

Well, at least you have good taste in the rest of your gaming hardware!

cheers



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adlabs6
09-07-2003, 08:28 PM
Dnmy wrote:
- You and i know what is possible with the hatswitch.
- Nevertheless not even knowing what the headtracking
- device was that you had, i can say that it can't be
- compared to what the trackIR offers. But then again,
- you'd have to try trackIR properly(!) to be
- convinced.

Hi again...

I was using Cam2Pan with an $120 Intel webcam at 640x480 resolution, with settings tweaked to follow a BRIGHT red LED taped to the bill of a ballcap. I had that setup very well after a while of tweaking, it was dang tough to get uncentered with that LED cap, especially at night, when I play most. Tracking was smooth as moving the mouse (because it WAS moving the mouse!). And I preferred not using any deadzones or return to centers, since I glance down at my instrument panel every five seconds or so, and subtle movements were very immersive that way. Worked like a charm.

Using the headtracking was just about the same as using the hatswitch for me in terms of what I could see and track, though as you mentioned, it WAS more fun! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif What killed if for me was that fact that I squirm around while I'm shooting. Consiously holding still was easy after a few hours, but I noticed I was tensing up while shooting. I tried different ways to relax but I still tensed while aiming/shooting. Oh well, I guess I just like squirming around! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If not for that tensing up, I'd have kept on using headtracking. I dunno if I'd buy TrackIR, since I really, really liked the way I got Cam2Pan working with that LED cap (who cares if I looked silly!). But I did find that mouse, hatswitch, and headtracking are all in the same boat, and I wasn't missing tons by sticking with the hatswich.

Oh, and your right... If I went out and bought TrackIR and spent the time to setup and learn, I'd like it.

BTW, interesting to see how you setup your hatswitch. My configuration is as follows for those who would like to try it:

Saitex X45, with hatswitch #1 controlling my mouse cursor. In FB I have set my "Mouse Speed" to 2.0 for very fast panning, though higher speeds like 3.0 also work well for frantic battles. Moving my hatswitch has the same effect as when I move my mouse, smooth and with practice, highly precise. I also have the "mouse fire" button on the throttle mapped to the "center view" function, which is GREAT! I only have to pan to and track the subject and when I'm ready to fire or disengage, I hit "center view" and instantly the view is centered (mouse can't do that perfectly at extremely high mouse speeds).

Also, I think the way someone presses the hatswitch buttons also has much to do with the likelyhood of success. I had a real pilot once fly my FB, and when he used the hatswitch to look around, he tended to want place his thumb on the part of the switch he wanted to use. For example, when he wanted to look left, he would place his thumb on the left area of the hatswitch and press, the lift his thumb, place it on the top side of the hat and press, and so on. My brother once flew my FB setup and did the same thing, and he's played PC games for ever! The whole process looks very klunky.

When I use the hatswitch, I don't tend to keep my thumb very centered, but instead on the hat's edge. When I move to press a button, I slide to the OPPOSITE side of the hat and press towards the hat axis, which presses the direction I want to look. So, when I want to look left... I slide thumb to the right, and press towards the hatstick's center. For me this is very fast, and I never, ever have to move my thumb off the hat's edge, and I never lift it up off the hat. Works pretty good on most of the stick I've tried it on.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 11:25 PM
Thx for sharing your experience Adlabs,

Pity that you had to give up headtracking though. I myself don't have any problems with aiming and using trackIR at the same time.
Aiming i do with the stick anyway and not with the trackIR. When it gets time to shoot, merely concentrating on the bandit is enough to keep the view still, for me anyway.

Maybe in the future you could get around to trying trackIR. Especially now with the new software, if you wish you can set deadzones to prevent unwanted movement. All in all it works exceptionally well with FB. And it is planned to be supported by many future sims as well.

Nevertheless use what you're comfortable with, be that padlock, cam2pan, hatswitch, mouse or trackIR. Whatever works for you is fine. Again thx for pointing out your methods anyway /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 11:49 PM
Im not about to read through ALL 150 posts in this thread but I have skimmed thru some... Ill just post my opinion as stand alone and not base it off of anything else on this thread


in WWIIOL we have no Padlock, we rely soley on Hatswitches and number pads. we have no smooth mouselook either, just quick transitions to the standard 8 directions and Up/down combinations of each

using the hatswitch alone on my joystick isnt enough.. I always end up having to take my hand off the throttle and manipulate my views w/ my numeric keypad, switch back and forth as necessary... makes me wish I had three hands..

but it gets hard sometimes...

in Il-2 I like using the padlock feature to keep looking at my tgt and have full control over my aircraft

I like the padlock in IL-2 for several reasons...

(based on my settings)
1) u need to see the tgt you're padlocking 1st
2) the padlock will konk out if you lose the tgt long enough from your FOV... up to and including clouds...

its not like some other games where once you padlock a tgt you never lose it... its much better in its implimentation than that, and it resembles a real pilot using his eyes to keep track of tgts...

Basically you can argue about the effectiveness of Padlocking Vs a real combat pilots ability to track a target

but you cant argue that a combat pilot would need to remove his hands from his controls to look around... For me it comes down to the importance of controlling the aircraft (I also control prop pitch and WEP on my throttle)
I use it in IL-2 for this purpose.... in WWIIOL I just deal with it like everyone else.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:06 AM
UncleReiben, if that's your reason why you use PL in FB, then you will love TrackIR when you get it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It's your third hand.. no.. it is your head.
TrackIR users don't dream of third hand. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

(not IL-2! FB! IL-2 original doesn't support TrackIR.it's just mouse in IL-2.)

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:29 AM
And there's nothing wrong with padlock as a view system for following bogeys, it's the situational awareness exploits that paddicts have some trouble leaving behind. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:34 AM
You will never be the complete package until you learn how to use padlock well. And after you do, you realize it should always be on. It just makes the game better. If you are all into this being a sim then go play offline or FS2004. We are trying to have fun online not close 1 eye and fly with 1 hand tied behind our back.

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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:40 AM
We don't use padlock in our squad because when you're flying to target without minimap and have to use printed maps and compass for placement a bogie has the same or less of a chance of spotting you, plus we fly jabo, and hohen.

I've never liked the way padlock screws with my SA anyways.

rogo

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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:43 AM
I need padlock because I can't see a damn thing against the damn trees, even from close range. I end up flying around in circle on FR servers looking for any hint of the bogie that was right in front of me two seconds ago, it's just sad. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 04:04 AM
faustnik wrote:
- I need padlock because I can't see a damn thing
- against the damn trees, even from close range. I
- end up flying around in circle on FR servers looking
- for any hint of the bogie that was right in front of
- me two seconds ago, it's just sad.


Yes I remember when I used to have a 17" monitor with a curved screen. Then I got a 21" with a flat screen. Unfortunately it's people with supercomputers and monitors and special head gear that host servers with settings that discriminate against other users. Pretty sad huh how something that was supposed to be used for handicapped people (trackIR) eventually get's used to discriminate against less fortunate individials who don't happen to have 4K to blow on a PC system.

Here's to Oleg & Co making padlock a permanent feature of full real, so the people who only play full real will instantly accept it, and also making it host adjustable with more intelligent settings.



<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:16 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
-
- You obviously get off more on the fact that you are
- playing full real than what is actually true,

Said the man who's sig looks like he is getting off! NOTE he is alone in the picture too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- because no way the motion sensor of trackIR
- refreshes high enough to be considered fluid. If you
- can stand to use trackIR for pan-viewing in games
- than you probably can't tell the visual difference
- between vsync on or off either. You probably don't
- mind frame rates dipping into the 20's also because
- when you use trackIR, even if your frames rate never
- goes below 100 when you are panning it will just
- look like 20fps being rendered at 100fps.

As others have pointed out, you are talking out your A on this one.

- You would rather argue about whether padlock
- conforms to full real instead of whether it is good
- for the game.

Your mistake here is you are operating under the false impression that what you consider to be *good* is what everyone considers to be *good*. If there is anything one could and should realize from this forum and this thread is that is not the case. What is *good* and what is *fun* is relative to the user!!! That is why the game has options!! What we have been debating is what is why some people disable PL. Initially *they* assumed it was because every server with PL disabled was run by a HOST that had TrackIR. In that they felt the HOST needed an advantage. From that starting point I simply pointed out that ALL OTHER view systems have ADVANTAGES over TrackIR. The only thing TrackIR provides is a better looking and feeling of immersion.. NO ADVANTAGES!! Once *they* were proven *WRONG* about that simple fact they switched to the HOST does not know that PL is *more* realistic. Once again, We showed them with several examples how PL has a lot of UN-REALISTIC features. Which is why the *HOSTS* and even the game *OPTIONS* themselves disable PL under full realistic settings.

- Well, it is a setting that has things
- on both sides of the coin in that regard.

Never said it didn't, mater of fact we pointed out how one side of the coin has a lot of un-realistic features.

- You can use it to do some things that make the game more
- realistic, and you can use it to do some things that
- are (semi) unrealistic.

It does provide a very realistic motion that mimics the head movements.. but you probably don't know about that what with your 286 frame rate taking such a big hit! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif As for the (semi) unrealistic things ROTFLMAO! Please! Do you know who your are talking to? That fish wont sell here! It is way past it's due date!

-- But you have both implyed that the reason PL gets
-- disable is because those HOSTS have TrackIR and want
-- an advantage. Which is not true at all, espically
-- when you consder the FACT that PL and the POV both
-- have ADVANTAGES over TrackIR!
-
- Your logic has broken down here.

Not at all, your bias has just kick into overdrive!

- Listen to what you just said "Padlock does not get
- disabled by trackIR hosts so they can exploit their
- trackIR,

True.

- especially because padlock is better than trackIR" See?

Yes I see.. that you misunderstood what I said. Read it again, note that I said PL and POV have ADVANTAGES over TrackIR, not that it is BETTER! I was simply pointing out that the HOST disables PL because of the un-realistic ADVANTAGES it provides, not because he owners a TrackIR device. TrackIR is about the only views system that has NO ADVANTAGES! It is as real as a view system gets... for under 30K! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif And in this case, that makes it more REALISTIC! See?

- Your kicker actually supports the argument against you.

Maybe in your confused bias mind it does.

- The worst part about no-padlock is full real
- furballs. This is where the trackIR users have an
- advantage.

WHAT? Now GayBanJockich.. pay close att here.. BECAUSE you are the POSTER CHILD of.. How did you put it? "Your logic has broken down here". This is a classic example of LOGIC breaking down! Let me show you the errors in your ways..

In the start of this post you drowned on and one about how "no way the motion sensor of trackIR refreshes high enough to be considered fluid" and "You probably don't mind frame rates dipping into the 20"

Now.. in this last sentence of yours you claim.. how did you put it? "This is where the trackIR users have an advantage."

Tell me GayBanJockich.. how can you flip flop so fast? I mean one second you telling us how bad and un-useable TrackIR is.. and then the next your telling us how it has an advantage over the fast POV views? There is an old saying in THIS country.. "You can not have your cake and eat it too" Do they have something similar to that in your country?

- This game can try to be full real all it
- wants but right now it is at best the equivalent of
- playing basketball with a scuba mask on (and 1 eye
- taped shut).

Disagree.

- You talk about *FEEL* and *EXPERANCE*
- and *IMERSION* well if thats what you covet then
- play with the cockpit off.

You really are that thick? Why in H would a guy who strives for realistic turn off the cockpit? You really need to wait till the hang over wares off before you reply!

- As Bill Murray said in 'CaddyShack' "Be the ball" well,
- "Be the plane" if you want to enter a state of true
- nirvana.

LOL!

- Play with icons so there is much more thinking ahead
- instead of just flying towards dots and seeing what
- happens.

It is confirmed.. You just don't get it.. There is another old saying.. "It is the trill of the hunt.. NOT the kill" I'm sure you not only never head it before.. but don't even understand it at this moment of reading it.

-- ROTFLMAO!
-- WOW!
-- LOL!
-- WOW.. PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE AND STEP AWAY FROM THE PC!
-
- You are not really rolling on the floor laughing out
- loud.

Yes I am! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- In fact I bet you didn't even crack a smile.
- People who post these things are usually frustrated
- and out of bullets.

Again, you are transfering your life experiences onto others. That is not good to do, As it was wrong for you to assume that all TrackIR users have a 286 like yours.

- Doesn't matter what the pro's think, we would all
- like to see options for host adjustable padlock (ex
- range and independence of id from icon setting)

Not true! NOT TRUE AT ALL! If we all liked options for HOSTS then why do so many people not only not understand why they choose options, but go as far as to whine about it?

- Your other concerns are trivial however.

To someone that does not understand the thrill of hunting I'm sure they do seem trivial. Stick with the instant spawning Quake server setting GayBanJockich I wont lose any sleep over it!

- Padlock locks stuff that you CAN see, thats the whole point.

Agreed!

- It's not that you couldn't see it, it's that you
- didn't look hard enough.

EXACT ALLY! THANK YOU! You just proved my point(s)

- Ground object are a
- different story but I am an ace who never needs to
- lock onto ground objects (don't even assign that
- button)

Your an ace all right! ROTFLMAO!! <- I really am on the floor this time! Thank You! I needed that!

- Then you talk about the ability to maintain lock in
- a cloud. You are just some paranoid full realist.
- Padlock looses lock in clouds just like if something
- goes under your nose you will loose the lock.
- You are refering to some obscure exploit that where the
- person uses instant view forward with padlock.

EXACT ALLY!

- Well, let me tell you, I am an expert in the art of
- cloud evasion and have never had a problem.

ROTFLMAO! Man.. your killing me! Self proclaimed expert... Hey boys.. come here check this A HOLE out!

- And if this little exploit is true, then it should just be
- fixed.

Ah, so now you are STARTING TO UNDERSTAND why the HOST disables PL. Just know this, *THAT* is only *ONE* reason he does disable PL. there are many other UNREALISTIC things about PL, any one of which is good enough reason to ban PL from full real servers!

- There is no reason to hold it against what
- padlock is, it is so trivial I will have to borrow
- one of your "LOL"s.

Trivial to a Quake mind set bias I'm sure.

- And then you talk about the magical ability to put a
- triangle around the locked target. Hey numbnuts!
- They added that so people can tell what dot is
- locked.

Numbnuts? WOW! I'm having 5th grade school yard flash backs... Hey lets go pull the girls hair.. it will be fun.. come on guys!! LOL! But seriously.. Oh who am I kidding, being serious with a child like you is a waist of time. Look GayBanJockich.. I know you probably don't have the where with all to grasp this, but the Target Box comes in very handy when low at tree top level when the outline of the aircraft starts to blend in with the ground clutter.. Can you warp your mind around that simply little concept? Do you see the advantage of the Track Box now that I have pointed it out to you? Can you lock on and track that idea for a second.... Oooooooo... There he goes, into a cloud.. Annnnd BREAK.. Close GayBanJockich... you had it for a second of two.. Nice try, better luck next time!

- People asked for it, and they got it. It's
- for when there are numerous planes in the sky and
- you want your view to follow a specific one, then
- you know if it is locked or not instead of the one
- behind it, or the one to the side.

I know what is it for, I simply pointed out how it is an advantage over OTHER view systems.

-- LOL!
-- ROTFL!
-- LOL!
-- LOL!
-- LOL!
-
- Geesh what a crackpot.

Don't be so hard on yourself, I hear they have a good clinic for guys who ware left over Michel Jackson red leather jackets.


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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 06:20 AM
It is good to know how to use padlock well, which is very easy because it was meant to be easy. But you'll never be the complete package until you know how to play without padlock as well. So learn to play with padlock and progress towards learning to play without it as well.

Only being able to play with PL can be good fun, but it's still only half the package. The complete package is when you can play both with and/or without. When you're the complete package is when you'll realize it doesn't always have to be on.

RayBanJockey wrote:
- You will never be the complete package until you
- learn how to use padlock well. And after you do,
- you realize it should always be on.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:19 AM
tagert wrote:
- The only thing TrackIR provides is a better
- looking and feeling of immersion.. NO ADVANTAGES!!

And you are talking out of your butt, too. If you can put up with the stuttering pan motion of trackIR there is some good POV positions to be exploited. Quit trying to tell everyone that all trackIR does is give you a massage and go play FS2004. You know nothing about gaming.


- It does provide a very realistic motion that mimics
- the head movements.. but you probably don't know
- about that what with your 286 frame rate taking such
- a big hit! img src="stupidsmileyface.rbj"

Once again, you are clueless. I have a 3dMark2001 of over 10,000. I have watched people's trackIR tracks and how the pan view stutters, even though my frames don't go below 40. You just can't seem to understand that it doesn't matter if you are getting a million FPS, if your controller that reads mouse movement is not refreshing fast enough (i.e. as in trackIR) you will just be getting a million FPS simulating something getting 20 fps. How stuff moves when the POV rolls is critical to all dicerning gamers. I could play this game at 1600x1200 if I wanted too but I play at 1152x864 so when I roll the world turns smooth.

- Read
- it again, note that I said PL and POV have
- ADVANTAGES over TrackIR, not that it is BETTER!

Advantage=better. And you are still just chasing your tail trying to justify your flawed logic. You say PL has advantage over TIR and then say "see that only supports that hosts with TIR don't turn it off because of that" If you still can't figure out why you are wrong, send me a PM and I'll explian it in greater detail.

- TrackIR is
- about the only views system that has NO ADVANTAGES!

Except for the part where a TIR user can look in infinite directions, but someone with a hat switch can only look in 8.


- WHAT? Now GayBanJockich..

You would be funnier if your name began with an "F"



- you drowned on and on
- about how "no way the motion sensor of trackIR
- refreshes high enough to be considered fluid" and
- "You probably don't mind frame rates dipping into
- the 20"
-
- Now.. in this last sentence of yours you claim.. how
- did you put it? "This is where the trackIR users
- have an advantage."
-
- Tell how can you flip flop so
- fast?

I don't mean to teach a dog arithmetic here, but if you can put up with the stuttering panning then there are infinite POV's to exploit. I hope you can understand this.

- "You
- can not have your cake and eat it too" Do they have
- something similar to that in your country?

No. In this country we go to the store and buy a cake. then, once we have it, we eat it. You must come from a strange land where other people feed you by hand?

-
-- This game can try to be full real all it
-- wants but right now it is at best the equivalent of
-- playing basketball with a scuba mask on (and 1 eye
-- taped shut).
-
- Disagree.

Of course you disagree. You define the game by whether or not the full real button is pushed, not how full real it actually is.


-
-- You talk about *FEEL* and *EXPERANCE*
-- and *IMERSION* well if thats what you covet then
-- play with the cockpit off.
-
- Why in H would a guy who
- strives for realistic turn off the cockpit?

Because, said you stive for feel and experience and immersion, and capitalized it and put asterisks around it. Since when the cockpit is on 75% of your view is covered by it, if you want feel and experience and immersion of flying, then turn the cockpit off. Quit being such a communist and supporting the restriction of other people's views.

- There is
- another old saying.. "It is the trill of the hunt..
- NOT the kill" I'm sure you not only never head it
- before.. but don't even understand it at this moment
- of reading it.

For you and your padlock paranoia, there is the thrill of the sneak attack, not the thrill of the battle, because that's probably the only way you can get a kill, if it's handed to you on a full real server once every hour.



- the Target Box comes in very handy when
- low at tree top level when the outline of the
- aircraft starts to blend in with the ground
- clutter.. Can you warp your mind around that simply
- little concept?

Since it's locked you can tell where it is so the triangle doesn't really matter. Just another futile attempt to slander the game feature that is padlock by tagert. They worked hard on it and it is the best padlock in a game ever yet there are people like tagert who only focus on the negative things, and get off on game settings that restrict the view of others.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:55 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
-
- And you are talking out of your butt, too.

Well, you are half right. In that you at least now admit your talking out of your A. But I am not, I back up what I say with examples. You on the other hand just side step the issue.

- If you can put up with the stuttering pan motion
- of trackIR there is some good POV positions to be
- exploited.

GayBanJockich... how many times do I have to spell it out for you? What part of "YOU CAN NOT HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO" did you not understand? You CAN NOT in one breath argue that TrackIR useless (less than 20fps), and then in the next breath argue that it is great (ie has advantages). Please, make up your mind, which is it going to be?

- Quit trying to tell everyone that all trackIR does
- is give you a massage and go play FS2004. You know
- nothing about gaming.

LOL! Quit he says.. Tell you want GayBanjockich... this is the third or forth time you have *implied* that TrackIR has an advantage over other view systems... Can you give me ONE EXAMPLE of what you mean? Just one! That is all I'm asking! What is it about TrackIR you consider to be an ADVANTAGE.. when your NOT considering it to be USELESS... Tic... Toc... Tic... Toc... I'm waiting! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Once again, you are clueless.

ROTFL!

- I have a 3dMark2001 of over 10,000.

Sent me a self stamped envelope and Ill send you a gold star to hang on your fridge.

- I have watched people's trackIR
- tracks and how the pan view stutters, even though my
- frames don't go below 40.

YOU BONE HEAD! Let me see if I understand you correctly.. You think that the play back of a track file tells you how TrackIR looks in real time? GOD.. PLEASE TELL ME YOU ARE NOT THAT THICK?

- You just can't seem to understand that it doesn't
- matter if you are getting a million FPS, if your
- controller that reads mouse movement is not refreshing
- fast enough (i.e. as in trackIR) you will just be
- getting a million FPS simulating something getting
- 20 fps.

No, what I can not understand is how you can pass judgement on TrackIR and how it works in real time per a recording done on someone else PC. Nor can I understand how in one breath you can say TrackIR is worthless, then in the next breath Whine like a little girl that people using TrackIR have some advantage? As for the *stutter* your seeing in *playback* and not in real time.. You must know that there are so many *other* things that could cause it to stutter during playback... but Ill give you just one, in that I don't want you to over load that pea brain of yours. The recording of the track file... TrackIR may have a higher priority in real time then the recording of a file in real time... Let that one sink in for a bit before you respond.

- How stuff moves when the POV rolls is critical to all
- dicerning gamers.

Dicerning.. ROTFL! Do you really take yourself that serious? Tell me... how many tattoos on your arm do you have that contain the words Dicerning Gamer? God get over yourself!

- I could play this game at
- 1600x1200 if I wanted too but I play at 1152x864 so
- when I roll the world turns smooth.

Again, send me your address and Ill send you a gold star to hang next to your finger paintings on the fridge.


- Advantage=better.

In your Quake bias mind I'm sure it is that simple, but know this, Adults feel that

Advantage != REALISTIC

- And you are still just chasing your tail trying to justify
- your flawed logic.

ROTFL!

- You say PL has advantage over TIR and then say "see that
- only supports that hosts with TIR don't turn it off
- because of that" If you still can't figure out why
- you are wrong, send me a PM and I'll explian it in
- greater detail.

The day you explain anything will be a first!


- Except for the part where a TIR user can look in
- infinite directions, but someone with a hat switch
- can only look in 8.

LOL! Infinite? Tell me one thing I can see with the infinite TrackIR views that you can not see in Padlock, Mouse, or the 20 Keyboard or Hat views... Just one... I'm waiting... Or.. explain to me why TEN views of the same view that are only off by one pixel in X or Y is an ADVANTAGE?

-- WHAT? Now GayBanJockich..
-
- You would be funnier if your name began with an "F"

Agreed!

- I don't mean to teach a dog arithmetic here, but if
- you can put up with the stuttering panning then
- there are infinite POV's to exploit. I hope you can
- understand this.

That one hurt huh? Must have, in that you totally side stepped the question.. But the question still stands.. How can you in one breath argue TrackIR is worthless, than the next breath argue that it has an ADVANTAGE over other view systems?

-- "You can not have your cake and eat it too" Do
-- they have something similar to that in your
-- country?
-
- No. In this country we go to the store and buy a
- cake. then, once we have it, we eat it. You must
- come from a strange land where other people feed you
- by hand?

I knew you wouldn't understand.

- Of course you disagree. You define the game by
- whether or not the full real button is pushed, not
- how full real it actually is.

ROTFL! Ok Quake Man!

-- Why in H would a guy who
-- strives for realistic turn off the cockpit?
-
- Because, said you stive for feel and experience and
- immersion, and capitalized it and put asterisks
- around it. Since when the cockpit is on 75% of your
- view is covered by it, if you want feel and
- experience and immersion of flying, then turn the
- cockpit off. Quit being such a communist and
- supporting the restriction of other people's views.

U R CLUELESS! This response proves my point! If you can not understand why leaving the cockpit on provides a better *FEELING* of being *INSIDE* an airplane cockpit... Than I don't think I can help you... except to say stick with the magic carpet flying games.

- For you and your padlock paranoia, there is the
- thrill of the sneak attack, not the thrill of the
- battle, because that's probably the only way you can
- get a kill, if it's handed to you on a full real
- server once every hour.

ROTFL! C L U E L E S S! But hey, look at the BRIGHT SIDE... YOU ARE CONSISTENT!!

- Since it's locked you can tell where it is so the
- triangle doesn't really matter.

WRONG! TOTALLY WRONG!

- Just another futile
- attempt to slander the game feature that is padlock
- by tagert.

Not futile.. but your weak attempt to denied ground clutter is.

- They worked hard on it and it is the
- best padlock in a game ever yet

NOT TRUE! EAW had a better padlock system.

- there are people like tagert who only focus on the
- negative things, and get off on game settings that
- restrict the view of others.

ROTFL! Well, thanks for playing the game GayBanJockich... You can pick up your prize on the way out.. A months supply of gold stars.. Don't lick an stick them all at once, the glue might give you brain damage... On second thought.. No worries there, lick away!



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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 04:42 PM
RayBanJockey wrote nothing worth reading, so:

I thought I would put a little table/matrix togther for the likes of towelboy.com and GayRanJockitch. It should help them SEE what it is we are talking about... PUN intended. It is basically a little pro and cons table of how PL compares to the other view systems. Please feel free and to mak comments, or if you think I missed anything, Ill add it in.


http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzmmo


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Message Edited on 09/08/0308:52AM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:28 PM
I would never dis-allow anyone anything that they wanted to use in a server except cheats. I also want you to know that I dont use TiR or PL and am one of those who prefers HyperLobby do to the amount of non-padlock servers. I am a hatswitch man. FB is a game and I and people like me have to except that others play it differently than i do.

However i am hearing some fallacious arguments comeing from the PL proponents. Putting a triangle around a target is not "real" or "more real" in any respect. Why the hell not paint your plane white and red then?? Why bother with cammo. WW2 planes should have looked like Richtoffen's flying circus!! (They painted their planes bright colors so that they would be noticed)

Also, at 3km can you tell that that approaching or decending plane is a badit or friendly?? PL tells you it is a bandit. I do well online in PL servers and better in no PL servers. However I play where i want to play without complaint and take my licks however they may come. Ultimately, I think that the true motives behind the vehement defense of PL and to some extent TiR is the fact that it makes people better with less effort. And who doesn't like that? It's not my motto but this is a game and more power to them...They all flame the same when you get them.

I prefer identify,and track a target with my own skill and hat switch. Yes I hurt my thumb after a couple of hours and yes i can be shaken...But ususally it is my own fault and I can deal with that.

"I am a hunter. When I have shot down an Englishman my hunter's passion is satisfied for a quater of an hour."
-Manfred Von Richtoffen

" I fear no over heat 'till the needle on both guages hits the nine...Then it's too late."
-Me


Me to the Smithsonian; "Wanna sell your 190D??"

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:33 PM
tagert wrote:
.....................



You are just a boisterous mis-concluding double posting dull realist.

Someone could say 2+2=4 and you would type "ROTFLMAO!" Just because thats your only comback to anything.

The people who understand logic know I am right.

You, you are so hung up on your "how can trackIR be good if it is bad?" You are the dog I can not teach to, because it just flies right over your head. I have already told you that it doesn't pan smooth. That doesn't mean one can't exploit the infinite POV's available that are unavailable to hat-switch users.

Go back to preschool where people actually do rotflmao. Your immature attitude and preposterous assumptions are wearing thin. You are just one of those guys, the only thing you care about is if the full real button is pushed. You probably have no flying skills and just roam around like Stevie Woder with your track IR until you run out of gas.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
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Message Edited on 09/08/0312:34PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:53 PM
RBJ, smash it. It's a game and you and many others play it that way. I can understand that. But your comments anger guys like me when you say we suck or don't know how to fly and imply that we are stupid, blind and helpless...Also, a little modesty would suit you better. You don't win many over with your blatant self promotion. This isn't an attack, and in computer logic and technicality I believe that you are right. i'm commenting on some of the past things you have said in this topic.

"I am a hunter. When I have shot down an Englishman my hunter's passion is satisfied for a quater of an hour."
-Manfred Von Richtoffen

" I fear no over heat 'till the needle on both guages hits the nine...Then it's too late."
-Me


Me to the Smithsonian; "Wanna sell your 190D??"

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 06:31 PM
VonHeide wrote:
- ....


Who are you? Are you one of those guys who can only fly if the full real button is pushed too?

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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 08:50 PM
Two things you anti-PL guys have failed to prove, or even comment on at all.

1. PL is more realistic than not having PL.

Barfly, a "Real" USAF pilot says that PL is more real than not having PL on.

PL off in "realistic" mode is a mistake on Oleg's part.

2. PL enabled is enabled for EVERYONE! So there are no advantages for TrackIR users or some one who thinks it is better to goof around with the hat switch.

You claim that PL is an arcade setting and that is totally wrong, it is in fact more an arcade game with out it. Pushing that hat switch franticly around reminds me of the "Asteroids" days.

As far a sneaking up on targets, that's how I get most of my kills and I refuse to fly with out PL. Maybe you are playing an arcade mode because you seem to think it is easier to sneak up on people with PL disabled.



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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 09:02 PM
Their agruement is pure B.S. They just want to maintain their advantage pure and simple. Why do you see so many guys argue to keep thier uberCobra or superspinning 190, they just want to keep thier advantage.

A real pilots head is able to smoothly track an object. That can't be done with a hat switch alone. It can be done with padlock. Padlock is more realistic than using the hatswitch alone.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 09:33 PM
Now PL addicts' target moved to hat switch (from TrackIR). /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Yeah, we are free! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


faustnik wrote:
- Their agruement is pure B.S. They just want to
- maintain their advantage pure and simple. Why do
- you see so many guys argue to keep thier uberCobra
- or superspinning 190, they just want to keep thier
- advantage.
-
- A real pilots head is able to smoothly track an
- object. That can't be done with a hat switch alone.
- It can be done with padlock. Padlock is more
- realistic than using the hatswitch alone.
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 09:36 PM
So, you think TrackIR is a requirement to fly the sim in a realistic manner?

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 09:44 PM
The padlock question ultimately comes down to the "radar" issue.

Being a mudmover by nature, I can't help but notice that I evade much better doing ground-hugging manuevers when padlock is off than when it is on.

With PL on, the interceptors will be able to find me by doing a circle and by punching F4 until they score something. Pity there is no way to force them to find me on their own first!

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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:05 PM
There is no such thing as PL being more realistic than no PL. It's just a preference, a difficulty setting, nothing more, just like externals, and no cockpit or icons.

You say PL on is more realistic than without? Many people would say no cockpit is more realistic than cockpit on. Or that icons on would be more realistic than icons off, or that externals on is more realistic. For every setting there can be said something in its defense that it has some realistic features. The debate is endless.

There are no rights, no wrongs, just preferences. E.g. a well known real former fighter pilot (on SimHQ) says external padlock gives the best representation of what it is like. Another German jetfighter pilot who beta tested IL2 (and flew a 109 even) always found PL to be highly unrealistic. You take your pick who you want to believe.

Now i don't claim PL is arcade, it's only a difficulty setting, which when enabled makes certain things easier. Without PL it gets a lot more difficult. Which is exactly why the padlock addicts complain. And it's fully understandable, because PL addicts simply can't fight without PL. And that's ok too, because the solution doesn't have to be complicated. They should simply stick to PL only games.

So you're doing the right thing to refuse to fly without PL. Stick to the padlock only games and you'll be doing yourself and a lot of other people a big favour. Avoid the no padlock online wars like the plague. You won't miss it, and you won't be missed either.

You're not forced to join no padlock games, especially not if you believe the host has trackIR and therefore supposedly has an advantage over those that don't have a trackIR. Don't join, just don't do it. Very easy. Save yourself the trouble.

And PL off in realistic mode is no more a mistake on Oleg's part than cockpit on, or icons off in realistic mode. He simply provided for 3 modes, for quick selection, but he could have left them out as well. Or he could have named them easiest, easy, difficult. Would that make you happy?

Even if PL on was included in the full realism setting, then there'd still be people turning it off, out of preference.
The sense of realism in this sim is only perceived realism, and as such it is different for each individual. So be glad there are options to create your own realism. The no padlock guys fly on their realism settings, you fly on yours. Case closed.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:07 PM
Cossack13 wrote:

- With PL on, the interceptors will be able to find me
- by doing a circle and by punching F4 until they
- score something. Pity there is no way to force them
- to find me on their own first!

There is,

when padlock is off.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:20 PM
Faustnik,

If you feel that way, what is stopping you from only playing among your padlock peers in padlock on games?
Then you'd have no disadvantages resulting from the absence of PL.

Or is it that you explicitly wish to join no padlock games? If that's the case, then you'd better learn to play without padlock. Same like the hamfisted spindweeb who will have to learn to play with stalls and spins enabled.

faustnik wrote:
- Their agruement is pure B.S. They just want to
- maintain their advantage pure and simple. Why do
- you see so many guys argue to keep thier uberCobra
- or superspinning 190, they just want to keep thier
- advantage.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:21 PM
I can't say whether it is requirement or not.
Because so many people blame me saying,
"F**k off! I can't spend that HUUGE money on that little toy! I HEARD it's just a mouse substitute!"(not USED, HEARD. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )

So, what more can I say? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

But to me, it's a MUST.


faustnik wrote:
- So, you think TrackIR is a requirement to fly the
- sim in a realistic manner?
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:24 PM
Do you think a joystick is a requirement to fly in a realistic manner? Or should we just use the AI autopilot?

faustnik wrote:
- So, you think TrackIR is a requirement to fly the
- sim in a realistic manner?


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:34 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- I can't say whether it is requirement or not.

-
- But to me, it's a MUST.

Sounds like a good honest answer. I can certainly accept that.

****

On the other hand:

It sounds like DNMY thinks that online leagues should remain the exclusive territory of Track IR users. Padlock users, in his words, are not welcome in the world of the TrackIR user. Too bad, a lot of pilots would love to join the online leagues but, would have their effectiveness artificially reduced by settings restrictions. Oh well, as stated, were not wanted anyway. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 12:32 AM
Nope, you misinterpret my words, everybody is welcome to join these wars.

The only obstacle preventing you from joining is your paranoia telling you that without padlock you'll somehow end up as cannonfodder by the hands of the trackIR hordes.

Since you opt to listen to that paranoia, i only offered a bit of friendly advice, for your own sake, by suggesting you don't join these wars.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 03:25 AM
Dnmy wrote:
- There is no such thing as PL being more realistic
- than no PL. It's just a preference, a difficulty
- setting, nothing more, just like externals, and no
- cockpit or icons.
-
- You say PL on is more realistic than without? Many
- people would say no cockpit is more realistic than
- cockpit on. Or that icons on would be more realistic
- than icons off, or that externals on is more
- realistic. For every setting there can be said
- something in its defense that it has some realistic
- features. The debate is endless.
-
- There are no rights, no wrongs, just preferences.
- E.g. a well known real former fighter pilot (on
- SimHQ) says external padlock gives the best
- representation of what it is like. Another German
- jetfighter pilot who beta tested IL2 (and flew a 109
- even) always found PL to be highly unrealistic. You
- take your pick who you want to believe.
-
- Now i don't claim PL is arcade, it's only a
- difficulty setting, which when enabled makes certain
- things easier. Without PL it gets a lot more
- difficult. Which is exactly why the padlock addicts
- complain. And it's fully understandable, because PL
- addicts simply can't fight without PL. And that's ok
- too, because the solution doesn't have to be
- complicated. They should simply stick to PL only
- games.
-
- So you're doing the right thing to refuse to fly
- without PL. Stick to the padlock only games and
- you'll be doing yourself and a lot of other people a
- big favour. Avoid the no padlock online wars like
- the plague. You won't miss it, and you won't be
- missed either.
-
- You're not forced to join no padlock games,
- especially not if you believe the host has trackIR
- and therefore supposedly has an advantage over those
- that don't have a trackIR. Don't join, just don't do
- it. Very easy. Save yourself the trouble.
-
- And PL off in realistic mode is no more a mistake on
- Oleg's part than cockpit on, or icons off in
- realistic mode. He simply provided for 3 modes, for
- quick selection, but he could have left them out as
- well. Or he could have named them easiest, easy,
- difficult. Would that make you happy?
-
- Even if PL on was included in the full realism
- setting, then there'd still be people turning it
- off, out of preference.
- The sense of realism in this sim is only perceived
- realism, and as such it is different for each
- individual. So be glad there are options to create
- your own realism. The no padlock guys fly on their
- realism settings, you fly on yours. Case closed.

EXACTALL! Well said!



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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 03:35 AM
VonHeide wrote:
- Also, at 3km can you tell that that approaching or
- decending plane is a badit or friendly?? PL tells
- you it is a bandit.

I forgot about that one! Thanks, Ill be adding that to my list!




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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 03:48 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- You are just a boisterous mis-concluding double
- posting dull realist.
-
- Someone could say 2+2=4 and you would type
- "ROTFLMAO!" Just because thats your only comback to
- anything.
-
- The people who understand logic know I am right.
-
- You, you are so hung up on your "how can trackIR be
- good if it is bad?" You are the dog I can not teach
- to, because it just flies right over your head. I
- have already told you that it doesn't pan smooth.
- That doesn't mean one can't exploit the infinite
- POV's available that are unavailable to hat-switch
- users.

I know you think you have answered it, but just know that restating what you allready said does not count as an ansewer. To help you understand, let me make it simple for you.

QUESTION #1
How can you, within one post, start off saying that TrackIR is useless, due to it's un acetable frame rate.. And later in the same post say that TrackIR gives people an advantage?

QUESTION #2
You say TrackIR has infinite views.. Even though TrackIR has the same view range that PL, HAT, and KB has... So you seem to be talking out of your A again. Please, give us an example of what you mean by infinte views, and how they can be *exploited*

- Go back to preschool where people actually do
- rotflmao. Your immature attitude and preposterous
- assumptions are wearing thin. You are just one of
- those guys, the only thing you care about is if the
- full real button is pushed. You probably have no
- flying skills and just roam around like Stevie Woder
- with your track IR until you run out of gas.

I know.. it must be hard, what with me making you look stupid and all in front of god and everybody.. But I would really respect you alot more if you would just answer the two questions above.. I might even forgive you! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 04:03 AM
RayBanJockey wrote, but his crayon broke:

Hey buddy! In light of all the trouble you are having understanding the issues presented here I made a special little table for you. Feel free to cut and paste this info and print it out and hang it next to your bed.

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzmmo

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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 04:25 AM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- Two things you anti-PL guys have failed to prove, or
- even comment on at all.

What? Are you NEW? Just about every post touches on those two things... ok.. Ok.. OK! If it will make you happy, I do it again.. Are you sitting down? Ok, good, here we go.

- 1. PL is more realistic than not having PL.

PRO: I agree that the fluid motion of PL *looks* and *feels* very realistic. It does a great job of simulating the pilots head movements within the cockpit and greatly improves the immersion!

CON: It is all the other *features* of PL that motivate HOSTS to disable it in their servers. For a list of those reasons go here:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzmmo

And notice how many boxes are check in the Padlock column.

- Barfly, a "Real" USAF pilot says that PL is more
- real than not having PL on.

For every *REAL* pilot you find that says it is real, you can find one that says it is not real. In that it is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Pilots are people too, their words can be taking out of context just yours and mine.

- PL off in "realistic" mode is a mistake on Oleg's
- part.

Even if that was true, it wouldn't change a thing on this list

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzmmo

- 2. PL enabled is enabled for EVERYONE! So there are
- no advantages for TrackIR users or some one who
- thinks it is better to goof around with the hat
- switch.

Note that I know of no one that ever said it was.. or wasn't. The point is, though PL may have a realistic *motion* it is all the other aspects of PL that make it considered to be un-realistic, and thus disabled.

- You claim that PL is an arcade setting and that is
- totally wrong, it is in fact more an arcade game
- with out it.

Just your opinion, one that I and many servers disagree with.

- Pushing that hat switch franticly
- around reminds me of the "Asteroids" days.

Good for you! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- As far a sneaking up on targets, that's how I get
- most of my kills

And what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

- and I refuse to fly with out PL.

That is your prerogative.

- Maybe you are playing an arcade mode because you
- seem to think it is easier to sneak up on people
- with PL disabled.

Wrong.


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Message Edited on 09/08/0308:29PM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 05:20 AM
If RBJ cares to listen, or anyone else for that matter, I will explain in technical and practical terms why TIR's refresh rate of 60hz is not an obstacle in a flight sim where it most certainly would be in a first person shooter.

Of course, those of us who actually have one will understand this perfectly. Those who don't, and don't want to understand, will never allow themselves to drop thier bias long enough to learn.

That would include RBJ because he has put himself behind the anti-TIR flag so hard that finding out he is wrong and having to admit so would be a terrible blow to his own self-perception or at least how he perceives his "character" on these forums.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 05:33 AM
tagert wrote:
- VonHeide wrote:
-- Also, at 3km can you tell that that approaching or
-- decending plane is a badit or friendly?? PL tells
-- you it is a bandit.
-
- I forgot about that one! Thanks, Ill be adding that
- to my list!


It's only if the icons switch is on. Of course you don't know much about padlock thats why you didn't know this.


tagert wrote:
- QUESTION #1
- How can you, within one post, start off saying that
- TrackIR is useless, due to it's un acetable frame
- rate.. And later in the same post say that TrackIR
- gives people an advantage?

Imagine a car that would win any race, but it had the most uncomfortable seat ever designed.


- QUESTION #2
- You say TrackIR has infinite views.. Even though
- TrackIR has the same view range that PL, HAT, and KB
- has... So you seem to be talking out of your A
- again. Please, give us an example of what you mean
- by infinte views, and how they can be *exploited*

When you use the hatswitch, there are about 8 views that it snaps too. If you choose to use the cumbersone non-snap hat view, there are about 16 or so. When you use track IR, it can look in infinite directions. Of course you don't know much about this game or grasping simple concepts, instead all you know how to do is post like a pogo so I doubt you'll understand.


- I know.. it must be hard, what with me making you
- look stupid and all in front of god and everybody..
- But I would really respect you alot more if you
- would just answer the two questions above.. I might
- even forgive you!

You are in such a world of your own, with your chain posting self centered illogical and boisterous LOL'ing retorts, you give full real pilots a bad name. I have met some pilots who play full real and thankfully they are all not like you.


tagert wrote:
- Hey buddy! In light of all the trouble you are
- having understanding the issues presented here I made ...

Actually, it's you who are the one posting all of your curious questions about how you don't understand things. Save yourself the trouble and learn more about the game instead.

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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:00 AM
tagert wrote:
- VonHeide wrote:
-- Also, at 3km can you tell that that approaching or
-- decending plane is a badit or friendly?? PL tells
-- you it is a bandit.
-
- I forgot about that one! Thanks, Ill be adding that
- to my list!



Wrong, if icons and externals views are disabled, padlock can't tell friend from foe...

The padlock ennemy feature will padlock anything in these conditions, up to you to identify it if you don't want to fire at friendlies...


This is typical of anti padlock peoples, they are argumenting other a feature while they don't even know how it work really...

The current padlock distance is 2.9 kilometers, while planes are visible from more than 5 km. Maybe some people who have problems seeing planes will find padlock "radar like"... personnally, i see planes much longer before i can lock them. For me, not only padlock isn't a "radar" feature, but i can easily stalk and take an advantageous position above a pilot who is relying on padlock. I just have to stay out of is field of vision while i'm approaching him.

Padlock is only useful for keeping track of an opponent in close quarters, i often disable it before engaging to scan the sky, as staying padlocked on a plane is the best way of getting shot down by is mates.

Anyway, most people that are anti padlock don't want it just because they don't know how to use it effectively... Most of them just can't fly with padlock, losing track of their plane attitude quickly, and often crashing as a result of having tried to follow a plane with padlock.

You want real Hard settings? fly with padlock, is it much harder than flying without it...

<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:04 AM
Typical RJB know it all BS pseudo pedantic preschool logic.

TIR is the best thing since sliced bread-period.


(RJB logic) I don't have to prove it with any sources or empirical evidence because it's an axiom, even if you don't accept it-it is a truth that exists without a perceiver.

And don't forget to play your games with clip planes enabled.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/080903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 09/08/0310:17PM by Rogodin

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:06 AM
PriK wrote:
- If RBJ cares to listen, or anyone else for that
- matter, I will explain in technical and practical
- terms why TIR's refresh rate of 60hz is not an
- obstacle in a flight sim where it most certainly
- would be in a first person shooter.
-
- Of course, those of us who actually have one will
- understand this perfectly. Those who don't, and
- don't want to understand, will never allow
- themselves to drop thier bias long enough to learn.
-
- That would include RBJ because he has put himself
- behind the anti-TIR flag so hard that finding out he
- is wrong and having to admit so would be a terrible
- blow to his own self-perception or at least how he
- perceives his "character" on these forums.

Agreed 100%



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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:28 AM
I have tried the mouse-on-the-thumbswitch of the CH Pro Throttle USB. I found it not refreshing high enough to be an acceptable part of my view system (I have high standards)

I have also listened to people who have used the mouse-on-the-thumbswitch and they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

That's the problem here. We have people with lower standards touting devices and things like antialiasing and aniso on cards that don't have the punch (ex GF4's). Some (alot) of people just aren't discering gamers/ have good eyesight and can't pick up on things like I do.

Like I said it's not about the power of your computer. It's about the refresh rate of the device that is sending inputs to the direction of mouse movments. Unless they get it higher it is unacceptable to people with good eyesight. It's no wonder TrackIR is for handicapped people.


Hoarmurath wrote:
- The current padlock distance is 2.9 kilometers,
- while planes are visible from more than 5 km. Maybe
- some people who have problems seeing planes will
- find padlock "radar like"... personnally, i see
- planes much longer before i can lock them. For me,
- not only padlock isn't a "radar" feature, but i can
- easily stalk and take an advantageous position above
- a pilot who is relying on padlock. I just have to
- stay out of is field of vision while i'm approaching
- him.
-
- Padlock is only useful for keeping track of an
- opponent in close quarters, i often disable it
- before engaging to scan the sky, as staying
- padlocked on a plane is the best way of getting shot
- down by is mates.
-
- Anyway, most people that are anti padlock don't want
- it just because they don't know how to use it
- effectively... Most of them just can't fly with
- padlock, losing track of their plane attitude
- quickly, and often crashing as a result of having
- tried to follow a plane with padlock.
-
- You want real Hard settings? fly with padlock, is it
- much harder than flying without it...


I agree 100%.

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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:31 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- It's only if the icons switch is on.
- Of course you don't know much about padlock thats
- why you didn't know this.

Nice try, but you are wrong. I did know it, I just forgot to add it to my list! It was just another example of some of the unrealistic aspects of PL.

-- QUESTION #1
-- How can you, within one post, start off saying that
-- TrackIR is useless, due to it's un acetable frame
-- rate.. And later in the same post say that TrackIR
-- gives people an advantage?
-
- Imagine a car that would win any race, but it had
- the most uncomfortable seat ever designed.

ROTFL! Nice try, but no sale.. What to try again? The question still stands!

-- QUESTION #2
-- You say TrackIR has infinite views.. Even though
-- TrackIR has the same view range that PL, HAT, and KB
-- has... So you seem to be talking out of your A
-- again. Please, give us an example of what you mean
-- by infinte views, and how they can be *exploited*
-
- When you use the hatswitch, there are about 8 views
- that it snaps too.
- If you choose to use the cumbersone non-snap hat
- view, there are about 16 or so.

cumbersone non-snap? ROTFL!

- When you use track IR, it can look in infinite
- directions.

WRONG You might want to look it up, in that TrackIR does not have an infinite range of views. As a mater of FACT it has the same view range as PL and the rest of the view systems!!

- Of course you don't know much about
- this game or grasping simple concepts, instead all
- you know how to do is post like a pogo so I doubt
- you'll understand.

post like a pogo! Said the man who's sig looks like he has a pogo up his A!

- You are in such a world of your own, with your chain
- posting self centered illogical and boisterous
- LOL'ing retorts,

Agreed, you are not in my world! Tell me, what color is the sky in yours? Over here it is blue.

- you give full real pilots a bad name. I have met some
- pilots who play full real and thankfully they are all
- not like you.

ROTFLMAO!!!

- Actually, it's you who are the one posting all of
- your curious questions about how you don't
- understand things.

Wrong.

- Save yourself the trouble and
- learn more about the game instead.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Well, my forth attempt a GayRanJockitch has yet to answer the simple question... Anyone care to try to answer it for him? Anyone? Ok, tell me than.. How can someone, within the same post say that TrackIR is useless due to it's low frame rate, and in the next sentence of the same post say that people who use TrackIR have an advantage over other people? Can it be useless and an advantage at the same time? What am I missing here? Do I need to go sign up for some of those NEW MATH classes? Please, anyone, explain to me how

USELESS = ADVANTAGE

Because GayRanJockitch cant do it.

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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:38 AM
Sorry tagert, but you are wrong

padlock can't tell friends from foes if icons and external views are disabled...

best learning how it works before talking about it...



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:49 AM
Hoarmurath wrote:
- Wrong, if icons and externals views are disabled,
- padlock can't tell friend from foe...

Both have to be disabled? I thought you only had to disable icons? Hmmmm I better ad that to my list too.

- The padlock ennemy feature will padlock anything in
- these conditions, up to you to identify it if you
- don't want to fire at friendlies...

WRONG! The host can have settings for PL where it will only lock up enmy aircraft. That options makes life real easy.. TOO EASY! With that setting you dont even have to ID the aircraft.

- This is typical of anti padlock peoples, they are
- argumenting other a feature while they don't even
- know how it work really...

WRONG! The TARGET BOX is for PL only!!

- The current padlock distance is 2.9 kilometers,
- while planes are visible from more than 5 km. Maybe
- some people who have problems seeing planes will
- find padlock "radar like"...

Exactally.. the radar like aspect is one of the main reason host disable PL. In that it can FIND an aircraft that is hidden by an obstical, like ground clutter.

- personnally, i see planes much longer before i
- can lock them.

Not allways.

- For me, not only padlock isn't a "radar" feature,
- but i can easily stalk and take an advantageous
- position above a pilot who is relying on padlock.
- I just have to stay out of is field of vision
- while i'm approaching him.

PL or no Pl the field of vision is the same for all view systems. I am glad to hear that you dont use the advantages of Pl to find un-seen aircraft. But, you have to understand that not eveyone is as honest as you. HOSTS understand that, and thus disable PL. It really is just that simple!!

- Padlock is only useful for keeping track of an
- opponent in close quarters,

Not true, see my list.

- i often disable it before engaging to scan the sky,

WRONG! In that you HAVE TO disable it to SCAN the sky.. if your LOCKED ON, you have to look where the PC wants you to look.

- as staying padlocked on a plane is the best way
- of getting shot down by is mates.

Agreed 100%!

- Anyway, most people that are anti padlock don't want
- it just because they don't know how to use it
- effectively...
- Most of them just can't fly with
- padlock, losing track of their plane attitude
- quickly, and often crashing as a result of having
- tried to follow a plane with padlock.

WRONG! Most people understand it all too well, ie all the unrealistic aspects of it! That is the reason.

- You want real Hard settings? fly with padlock, is it
- much harder than flying without it...

WRONG! Just so you know, it is not the flying with part that gets it disabled.. it is all the other things it can do that gets it disabled!!



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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:50 AM
Hoarmurath wrote:
- Sorry tagert, but you are wrong
-
- padlock can't tell friends from foes if icons and
- external views are disabled...
-
- best learning how it works before talking about
- it...

Sorry your sorry, cuz I aint! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:55 AM
well, you don't know at all how padlock is working

all your statements about it are BS...

no way to have a constructive discussion with your type...

no wonder you don't feel sorry tagert, you're only trolling, and that's right, trolls like you never feel sorry...



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:56 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I have tried the mouse-on-the-thumbswitch of the CH
- Pro Throttle USB. I found it not refreshing high
- enough to be an acceptable part of my view system (I
- have high standards)
-
- I have also listened to people who have used the
- mouse-on-the-thumbswitch and they think it's the
- greatest thing since sliced bread.
-
- That's the problem here. We have people with lower
- standards touting devices and things like
- antialiasing and aniso on cards that don't have the
- punch (ex GF4's). Some (alot) of people just aren't
- discering gamers/ have good eyesight and can't pick
- up on things like I do.
-
- Like I said it's not about the power of your
- computer. It's about the refresh rate of the device
- that is sending inputs to the direction of mouse
- movments. Unless they get it higher it is
- unacceptable to people with good eyesight. It's no
- wonder TrackIR is for handicapped people.

RayBanJock_y is a CLU_L_SS DW__B

I would like to buy GayRanJockitch a vowel


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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:58 AM
Hoarmurath wrote:
- well, you don't know at all how padlock is working

Really?

- all your statements about it are BS...

Give me one example.. just one!

- no way to have a constructive discussion with your
- type...

Im sorry.. did I upset you back there when I point out all your mistakes? Please forgive me, I thought that most folks here were adults and could handle it.

- no wonder you don't feel sorry tagert, you're only
- trolling, and that's right, trolls like you never
- feel sorry...

ROTFLMAO!


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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:06 AM
just one

with icons disabled, host have no control about what you padlock.. it is always the plane that is the closest to the center of your screen...

Padlock ennemy only don't work at all when icons are disabled...

You're mistaking the no icons option with the limited icons options...

But i said disabled, not limited...

enough?



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:10 AM
Hoarmurath wrote:
- just one

Thats all!

- with icons disabled, host have no control about what
- you padlock.. it is always the plane that is the
- closest to the center of your screen...
-
- Padlock ennemy only don't work at all when icons are
- disabled...

Ah, your right, Im wrong, thanks for setting me straight!

- You're mistaking the no icons option with the
- limited icons options...

Roger, your right, I had that one mixed up! Thanks for clearing that up for me!!

- But i said disabled, not limited...

Roger, my bad, please forgive me!

- enough?

Yup! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Thanks!!




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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:26 AM
also you don't seem to know about the external padlock...

You were surprised when i said you had to disable external view if you would not allow the "ennemy only" padlock?

even if you disable padlock, external view stay with the external padlock feature activated... There is no way to disable it while external views are active...

and if you want a real radar feature, this one is the one you're looking for...

It will lock the closest ennemy to your plane... It don't even have to be in your field of vision, your view will change to follow him automatically...

and as i said, it will padlock only ennemy, no matter if icons are on or off, this padlock always work at ennemys, never at friendly planes...

The most stupid difficulty setting i have ever seen is external view active with padlock disabled...

Totally useless, you're only leaving the most powerful padlock, and disabling the normal one... This way, you have really arceade setting, flying from external, so you never black out, and can padlock ennemies at will...

<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:15 AM
Hoarmurath wrote:
- also you don't seem to know about the external
- padlock...

I know it exists, but Ill be honest, I have never used exteranl padlock.

- You were surprised when i said you had to disable
- external view if you would not allow the "ennemy
- only" padlock?

Roger, I thought you only had to disable icons.

- even if you disable padlock, external view stay with
- the external padlock feature activated... There is
- no way to disable it while external views are
- active...

Hmmmm good info.. To be honest, I dont recal a server that had padlock disabled and didnt have externals disabled. In that if they are going for the real feel, they typically turn off externals too.

- and if you want a real radar feature, this one is
- the one you're looking for...

No Thanks! The radar feature of internal padlock is bad enough!

- It will lock the closest ennemy to your plane... It
- don't even have to be in your field of vision, your
- view will change to follow him automatically...

WOW! That is really bad! No wonder they disable externals when you select full real!

- and as i said, it will padlock only ennemy, no
- matter if icons are on or off, this padlock always
- work at ennemys, never at friendly planes...

WOW... At that point they might as well enable auto-pilot too for online play! I mean 99% of the work is done! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- The most stupid difficulty setting i have ever seen
- is external view active with padlock disabled...

To be honest.. I have never seen a server do that.. But if they do, I Agree with you 100%!

- Totally useless, you're only leaving the most
- powerful padlock, and disabling the normal one...
- This way, you have really arceade setting, flying
- from external, so you never black out, and can
- padlock ennemies at will...

Agreed! That is about as arcade as it could ever get!! It does explain how some folks have been seeing me.. In that even when I was on thier low six.. with them facing away from me.. they would all of a suddent turn towards me... Up to now I thought it was the sound bug! But, they would not turn and look.. they would turn right at me.. Must have been that exteranl padlock cheat... I mean feature! Now.. how do I work that into my list? In that all the things on my list are with regards to cockpit views.... Hmmmm


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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:36 AM
According to a well known former fighter pilot in the simming community, external padlock, is the most realistic representation of what it was like.

So if you want it the most realistic way, you should play it with external, not internal padlock. And that's exactly what the guys who disable padlock, but who leave externals on, are doing. They fly external padlock to experience padlock in the most realistic way. And yes they take external padlock's imperfections for granted. They can't black out, they can use it to padlock enemies only. But that's ok, because for the rest they can fly it in the most realistic way possible.

And in essence that'd be no different from what the guys who use internal padlock are doing. According to them, internal padlock is more realistic. And they also take internal padlock's imperfections for granted to fly it according to their own sense of realism.

But there's also a group of people who don't want any of those features' imperfections. They'd rather have everyone deal with the task of tracking bandits themselves, without the aid of external or internal padlock.

You can't say from either category of players whether their settings are right or wrong. If you do, you're only using double standards. You can only say i prefer it this or i prefer it that way.

Hoarmurath wrote:

- The most stupid difficulty setting i have ever seen
- is external view active with padlock disabled...
-
- Totally useless, you're only leaving the most
- powerful padlock, and disabling the normal one...
- This way, you have really arceade setting, flying
- from external, so you never black out, and can
- padlock ennemies at will...

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:36 AM
Hoarmurath wrote:

- Anyway, most people that are anti padlock don't want
- it just because they don't know how to use it
- effectively... Most of them just can't fly with
- padlock, losing track of their plane attitude
- quickly, and often crashing as a result of having
- tried to follow a plane with padlock.
-
- You want real Hard settings? fly with padlock, is it
- much harder than flying without it...

Not so.

It is much easier with padlock. If PL was meant to be harder, then it would never have been invented for sims. Padlock was meant to prevent people from having to unnescessary go through the "trouble" of fumbling with the hatswitch to track their targets. That's why it's easier. And if you find using padlock harder because you frequently lose orientation, i'd suggest practice some more with it. Because it is really very easy.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:42 AM
I find it more difficult and I've been flying since the IL-2 demo.

I have the HAT configured perfectly and never loose targets-unless it's over forest with good camo.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/080903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:01 AM
I find it very easy and i've been flying with padlock since it was invented in sims (falcon3).

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 02:54 PM
tagert wrote:
- What? Are you NEW? Just about every post touches on
- those two things... ok.. Ok.. OK! If it will make
- you happy, I do it again.. Are you sitting down? Ok,
- good, here we go.

Yes, Target, I am new.

Try and learn how to post will you? Your replies are nauseating to look at.


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Message Edited on 09/09/0309:56AM by Cardinal25

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 05:40 PM
tagert wrote:
--- QUESTION #1
--- How can you, within one post, start off saying that
--- TrackIR is useless, due to it's un acetable frame
--- rate.. And later in the same post say that TrackIR
--- gives people an advantage?
--
-- Imagine a car that would win any race, but it had
-- the most uncomfortable seat ever designed.
-
- ROTFL! Nice try, but no sale.. What to try again?
- The question still stands!


Do you have a problem with logic? First of all I never said trackIR was useless. That was just another one of your preposterous assumptions (the ones we are all getting sick of). Second, I have told you the correct answer even if your incorrect statement was true, yet you can not understand simple logic. I don't have to try again. I make sense. It is you who has to try again to understand the things you can't see.


- cumbersone non-snap? ROTFL!


As usual, dumb people are easily amused. Snap view is snap view but if you turn off the snap then you are left having to click it numerous times to get to preset postitions (cumbersome)



-- When you use track IR, it can look in infinite
-- directions.
-
- WRONG You might want to look it up, in that
- TrackIR does not have an infinite range of views. As
- a mater of FACT it has the same view range as
- PL and the rest of the view systems!!

tagert, are you really this stupid? TrackIR user can look in any direction. Snap view only goes to about 8. I did not say view range, but since you like to add things that aren't true as you go along, yes there is the linda blair cheat for trackIR that does increase your range.



-- Of course you don't know much about
-- this game or grasping simple concepts, instead all
-- you know how to do is post like a pogo so I doubt
-- you'll understand.
-
- post like a pogo! Said the man who's sig looks like
- he has a pogo up his A!

As usual, when you are cornered with nowhere you go tagert, you attack!



-- you give full real pilots a bad name. I have met some
-- pilots who play full real and thankfully they are all
-- not like you.
-
- ROTFLMAO!!!

You must have a keyboard down there on the floor so you can type during your Woody Wood****** imitations.


-- Actually, it's you who are the one posting all of
-- your curious questions about how you don't
-- understand things.
-
- Wrong.

Would be simple wouldn't it tagert? Forget about explaining things, when someone proves you wrong and you just can't take it, resort to 1 word replies of denial. It is you who can't seem to figure things out, with all of your trick questions that I answer so thoughoughly.


-- Save yourself the trouble and
-- learn more about the game instead.
-
- ROTFLMAO!!!

Woody wood****** strikes again! When you know you are beat, just type "ROTFLMAO, or Wrong, or LOL) I have seen this phenomena in internet forums before. The person who can only type how much they are laughing has run out of argument, and is trying to resurrect his ego.


- Well, my forth attempt a GayRanJockitch has yet to
- answer the simple question...

As everyone can see, this person, tagert, could be easily called something as well, yet I am above his level, looking down at all of his illogical rants and namecalling. I have answered his question (that contains misinformation) in a logical way over and over... yet since he doesn't like how the answer proves him wrong, he just keeps asking over and over. Asking like a pogo and posting like a pogo, with his new buddy Rogo...

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:17 PM
Icarus999 wrote:
- I've tried it with and without padlock, and I have
- to say. . .I prefer it without. I never thought I
- would feel that way about it, especially since I fly
- one of the blinder planes (109). But for some
- reason I like no PL.
-
- At least that way one can sneak past the enemy by
- flying very low to the ground and hoping the cammo
- will blend in...

And this brings up a point that shows that TrackIR at least can let you use camouflage to hide from your foe, whereas Padlock will follow you no matter what. It's very easy to lose a target in the clouds or in the sun or on the deck with TIR. Padlock will keep a lock regardless. I still keep PL available, even tho I have a TIR.


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!



SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:28 PM
i dont use PL

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein W├╝rgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 07:00 PM
i don't use PL - when I have used it, it just padlocks nearest rather than nearest enemy plane which is a bit pointless really.

seems a shame to have those lovely graphics only then to place a green triangle over your target.


http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif


She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:27 PM
Loco-S wrote:
- i dont use PL



I do use PL. It took me a while to get used to using it, but now that I've gained proficiency at it, I use it all the time.

<html>
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XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:37 PM
So your name is Crash_Man. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Crash_Man wrote:
-
-
- I do use PL. It took me a while to get used to
- using it, but now that I've gained proficiency at
- it, I use it all the time.
-

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:41 PM
we dont want to argue

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein W├╝rgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 10:26 PM
I love the fact that this threqad refuses to die.

Some one make a desprate appeal to Oleg to make changes to padlock so these no-PL wank stains will shut up.

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 01:52 AM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- Yes, Target, I am new.

Figured as much.

- Try and learn how to post will you? Your replies are
- nauseating to look at.

Truth Hurts! But I dindt think it would make one nauseated.



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 01:58 AM
Aardvark892 wrote:
- And this brings up a point that shows that TrackIR
- at least can let you use camouflage to hide from
- your foe, whereas Padlock will follow you no matter
- what. It's very easy to lose a target in the clouds
- or in the sun or on the deck with TIR. Padlock will
- keep a lock regardless. I still keep PL available,
- even tho I have a TIR.

Very good point, well said!

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 01:59 AM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- seems a shame to have those lovely graphics only
- then to place a green triangle over your target.

Agree 100%


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:01 AM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- I love the fact that this threqad refuses to die.
-
- Some one make a desprate appeal to Oleg to make
- changes to padlock so these no-PL wank stains will
- shut up.

Said the NOOB that said

"I wantto argue about padlock"

What he should have said,

"post here only if you agree with me"



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:45 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Do you have a problem with logic?

None what so ever! I encourage it! You should try it sometime!!

- First of all I never said trackIR was useless.
- That was just another one of your preposterous assumptions
- (the ones we are all getting sick of).

Useless.. worthless.. Either way, many know you have on MANY occasions stated that TrackIR is not worth the price for a slew of reasons. Funniest part is all your reasoning is not based on your experience with a TrackIR device, or even watching someone else use a TrackIR device.. NO! All your judgments are based off a playback file of someone using a TrackIR device. Assuming that the play back is how it looked during recording. Which just shows your lack of understanding of how a recording (track file) and Pc's works.

- Second, I have told you the correct answer even if
- your incorrect statement was true, yet you can not
- understand simple logic.

Ok.. If you can not explain yourself.. maybe someone else can? CAN ANYONE EXPLAINED TO ME RBJ's LOGIC WITH REGARDS TO THE FOLLOWING ANSWER TO MY QUESTION!!

- tagert wrote:
---- QUESTION #1
---- How can you, within one post, start off saying that
---- TrackIR is useless, due to it's un acetable frame
---- rate.. And later in the same post say that TrackIR
---- gives people an advantage?
---
--- Imagine a car that would win any race, but it had
--- the most uncomfortable seat ever designed.

Where or WHERE is the logic in his answer to my question? Anyone? PLEASE! I really want to know! I'm man enough to admit I'm wrong.. But I just don't see any bit of logic in he race car analogy to my question... Does ANYONE? PLEASE IM BEGGING YOU!! ANYONE PLEASE Translate this dweebs logic to me!!

- I don't have to try again.

Well see about that.

- I make sense.

Maybe... in that you never did tell me what color the sky is in your world? Over here it is blue.. Maybe over in your world that is consider logic... Or maybe on the playground you hang out at?

- It is you who has to try again to understand
- the things you can't see.

Funny.. but I highly doubt it.. But hey, maybe someone can translate your "other" world logic into "earth" logic for me and Ill see where your coming from?

-- cumbersone non-snap? ROTFL!
-
- As usual, dumb people are easily amused.

As your dog was when you were just a baby and your parents tied that bacon around your head.

- Snap view is snap view

LOL! There is some logic, DEFINE something with itself!

- but if you turn off the snap
- then you are left having to click it numerous times
- to get to preset postitions (cumbersome)

That is an option.. that some may like.. I don't recommend it, but, hey what ever flips their skirt!

--- When you use track IR, it can look in infinite
--- directions.
--
-- WRONG You might want to look it up, in that
-- TrackIR does not have an infinite range of views. As
-- a mater of FACT it has the same view range as
-- PL and the rest of the view systems!!
-
- tagert, are you really this stupid?

Yes.... In that I know you will never get it... Thus that makes me stupid... But I deep down I'm a nice guy, and I really want to help you! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- TrackIR user can look in any direction. Snap view
- only goes to about 8.

You are such a dumb a$$!!!! First off it is NOT 8 but 16. Second out of those 16, what part of it am I seeing with TrackIR that you can not see with the 16? The 16 views overlap to match the range of TrackIR, Padlock, Mouse range.

- I did not say view range,

I know.. which is what we are talking about.. So.. if not RANGE.. Just what is it you *think* TrackIR sees that the 16 POV views don't see? Is there some XRAY that TrackIR sees? Keep in mind I'm asking you here, not telling you! And you said we are NOT talking about the range of motion.. So... what else is there? Ill tell you what I DON'T SEE with TrackIR.. I don't see a bright blue/green/red TARGET BOX! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- but since you like to add things that aren't true as
- you go along, yes there is the linda blair cheat for
- trackIR that does increase your range.

Is that still true? COOL!! Tell me how to use that!! In that if I'm going to get blamed for using it, I might as well use it! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


--- Of course you don't know much about
--- this game or grasping simple concepts, instead all
--- you know how to do is post like a pogo so I doubt
--- you'll understand.
--
-- post like a pogo! Said the man who's sig looks like
-- he has a pogo up his A!
-
- As usual, when you are cornered with nowhere you go
- tagert, you attack!

As usual you can not comprehend that I was just attacking your attack. You drew fist blood! Don't hate me just because I'm better at it than you are!

--- you give full real pilots a bad name. I have met some
--- pilots who play full real and thankfully they are all
--- not like you.
--
-- ROTFLMAO!!!
-
- You must have a keyboard down there on the floor so
- you can type during your Woody Wood******
- imitations.

Ha Ha Ha HAHA.. Ha Ha Ha HAHA.. HAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

- Would be simple wouldn't it tagert?

Would? Would HAVE TO BE for you to understand it!

- Forget about explaining things, when someone proves
- you wrong

You have yet to PROVE anything! Let alone anyone wrong!!

- and you just can't take it, resort to 1 word replies of
- denial.

ROTFLMAO!! Said the man who only wishes he could dodge bullets in IL2 as well as he dodges questions that the answer to them would prove him wrong!!!!

- It is you who can't seem to figure things
- out, with all of your trick questions that I answer
- so thoughoughly.

HEHEHAHEHAHEAHHEAHEHAHEHAHEHAHHEHAHEHAHHHAHHHHHHaa aaaaaaaaaa Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Man... THANK YOU!! That has to be the funniest thing you have said yet!!

- Woody wood****** strikes again!

Ha Ha Ha HAHA.. Ha Ha Ha HAHA.. HAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

- When you know you are beat, just type "ROTFLMAO, or
- Wrong, or LOL)
Wrong! LOL!

- I have seen this phenomena in internet forums before.

Keep in mind your dreams of internet do not count! Much like your watching of a TRACK files does not count for comment on how TrackIR works in real time.

- The person who can only type how much they are
- laughing has run out of argument, and is trying to
- resurrect his ego.

ROTFLMAO!

- As everyone can see, this person, tagert, could be
- easily called something as well, yet I am above his
- level, looking down at all of his illogical rants
- and namecalling.

You started the NAME CALLING NUB NUTS!!! Don't hate me because I just do a better job of it! The fact remains, YOU STARTED IT!

- I have answered his question (that
- contains misinformation) in a logical way over and
- over...

NOT ONCE!! I DARE ANYONE TO TRANSLATE ANYTHING YOU SAID INTO ANYTHING THAT REMOTELY LOOKS LIKE LOGIC!!!!

- yet since he doesn't like how the answer
- proves him wrong, he just keeps asking over and
- over. Asking like a pogo and posting like a pogo,
- with his new buddy Rogo...

Said the little boy who's ego is so fragile he can not admit he made a mistake!


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 05:33 AM
tagert wrote:
-- TrackIR user can look in any direction. Snap view
-- only goes to about 8.
-
- You are such a dumb a$$!!!! First off it is NOT 8
- but 16. Second out of those 16, what part of it am I
- seeing with TrackIR that you can not see with the
- 16? The 16 views overlap to match the range of
- TrackIR, Padlock, Mouse range.


You is wrong. People use the hatswitch for snap view, and hatswitch's have 8 directions. So hatswitch users can only snap to 8 directions but trackIR users can go to infinite positions.

Whats cool about padlock is when you are looping on the tail of a bogey and he goes halfway up from front view to up view. You can hit padlock so you aren't stuck in between one of the 2 hatswitch views.


<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:05 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- You is wrong. People use the hatswitch for snap
- view, and hatswitch's have 8 directions.
- So hatswitch users can only snap to 8 directions

I dont know if your using an 8 year old joystick... or a really cheap new one.. but every joystick I have seen in the last few years has a POV with the following views.

1) FORWARD UP
2) FRONT RIGHT
3) RIGHT
4) RIGHT REAR
5) REAR (I think dwn in IL2)
6) LEFT REAR
7) LEFT
8) LEFT FRONT

With that said.. Are you so un-informed that you dont know about the LOOK UP key? When used in combination with these views gives you a 45 degree up from that view. Thus equaling the range of view of TrackIR, Mouse, etc.

- but trackIR users can go to infinite positions.

Wrong.. STILL! But in light of you not knowing about the LOOK UP key I can now understand why your so upset and started using PL. Children typically dont have the pacents to spend a little time with something to figure it out, thus you moved onto the view system that did the work for you.. Im starting to understand you a bit better.

- Whats cool about padlock is when you are looping on
- the tail of a bogey and he goes halfway up from
- front view to up view. You can hit padlock so you
- aren't stuck in between one of the 2 hatswitch
- views.

Yup.. it is clear that you have no clue on how to use the POV. You really need to look at #1 the FORWARD UP key, which covers the transition from FORWARD to UP!

PS. Still waiting for you answer to the stanging question, that and in light of your child like understandig of the POV I would really like to hear your explanation of infinite with regards to TrackIR... espically when you made it clear in your last post that when you say infinite it has nothing to do with the range of motion.



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:29 AM
Look up button? What the hell is that? Now you expect people to solve a Rubik's cube just to look somewhere? The hat is the hat. If there are other buttons involved (like toggle snap/pan view) that just makes it cumbersome.

And since your limited point of view has trouble grasping the concept of infinity, go hook up your trackIR and look to the upper left corner. Then move 1 pixel over and count to 2. Then move 1 pixel over and count to 3. When you get to the millionth view then make your next posting and tell us of your status.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 01:15 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Look up button? What the hell is that? Now you
- expect people to solve a Rubik's cube just to look
- somewhere? The hat is the hat. If there are other
- buttons involved (like toggle snap/pan view) that
- just makes it cumbersome.
-
- And since your limited point of view has trouble
- grasping the concept of infinity, go hook up your
- trackIR and look to the upper left corner. Then
- move 1 pixel over and count to 2. Then move 1 pixel
- over and count to 3. When you get to the millionth
- view then make your next posting and tell us of your
- status.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ....you I fear...../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~lbcoughlin/FreakySigV2.jpg
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<font size=#2>Splinter Cell and Prince of Persia Moderator.



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:49 PM
http://www.arrakis.es/~jmselva/lui1.jpg


Padlock is teh bad.

<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~lenazavaroni/images/tva_01a.jpg

<font size="+4">What a fox!</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:50 PM
tagert wrote:
- Cardinal25 wrote:
-- I love the fact that this threqad refuses to die.
--
-- Some one make a desprate appeal to Oleg to make
-- changes to padlock so these no-PL wank stains will
-- shut up.
-
- Said the NOOB that said
-
- "I wantto argue about padlock"
-
- What he should have said,
-
- "post here only if you agree with me"

Actually the wank stain comment was directed at you alone. I should have been clearer.

To this point you have not countered any argument for PL.

PL, while it has some minor things that need to be worked out (see original post) is far more realistic that using the hat switch or number pad.

The "Realistic" button on the settings panel should be re-labeled to "Most Difficult". As we have established: harder settings do not mean more realistic.


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:52 PM
Cardinal is a n00b? Is this some freaky alternate universe or something? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
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Former W├╝rgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 02:56 PM
<img src=http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/165583/whatanoob.jpg>



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 04:26 PM
this is hilarious ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

targetreh, shut up! CLOWN !

cheers,

FC6

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:08 PM
The discussion regarding realism is kind of pointless since there are very few of us who have any idea what it might have been like to be in a WWII era airplane in a life or death battle with someone who wanted to kill us.

If there is anyone reading this forum who is a WWII veteran who flew fighters and was ever actually engaged in aerial combat then I would welcome their take on this discussion.

All that is presented here, including my post, is simply the perception of the individual posting the comment(s).

For the most part it seems that the most active posters here are trying very hard to make their points known and are not really trying to understand what the others are saying.

For example; "TrackIR allows for infinite view angles". Well, it really isn't infinite but there are no "preset stops" that limit where you can look with TrackIR so you are not restricted to the 45, 90, 135, 180, 225, 270, 315 and 360 degrees view angles (look-up function not included in these presets) associated with the hatswitch.

So, in that regard it could be called "infinite". However, there is no way that it can be defined as "infinite" in the literal definition of the word "infinite".

Is TrackIR real? Nope. Is PL real? Nope. Is one better than the other? Depends on what you want.

I do not have TrackIR. I have not been able to justify the expense yet and I'm not sure I would even like it.

I also don't use PL. I have tried it and I don't like the fact that it will automatically find a target for me.

I spend a lot of time flying around the country and one of the things I like to do is look for other airplanes in the sky. Even when I have been told that there is an airplane 10 miles away (or whatever distance) at 2:00 I sometimes have a really hard time putting my MKII human eyeballs on it. When I do acquire the other airplane if I look away for a split second it is sometimes hard to reacquire it and then I spend a lot of time searching the area of the sky where I think it "should be".

When I host IL2 games I disable PL. I do this because I do not like the way PL allows the automatic acquisition and tracking of another airplane. I also disable external views. I used to leave external views active for taking screen shots but I found out that too dang many players use external views while flying to see if someone is trying to sneak up on them.

I don't care if someone joins one of my games and has TrackIR. I use the hat switch and it works well enough for what I need right now and I do not consider TrackIR to give an unfair advantage.

For my tastes I do not like PL. I believe it's use provides an advantage in acquisition of an opponent that would remain unseen if it were not used.

One poster commented that PL needs to be used appropriately or something to that effect and that it should not be used to acquire unseen aircraft. He further stated that PL should only be used to help offset the limitations of trying to "see" using the 2 dimensions and limited resolution of a PC and CRT. I completely agree with this. Unfortunately, there is no way to ensure that everyone in your game will abide by this suggestion. There are too many players who care nothing for honor and respect and abiding by the requests of the game's host and will do anything to win. I suppose it helps them feel better about themselves as people.

The only way to ensure that PL will not be used as a "radar" is to disable it thereby ensuring that no one will use it as a radar.

IF, and that is a BIG if, PL could be restricted to tracking aircraft the player has already visually acquired AND limited to a "reasonable" distance AND require the player visually reacquire the aircraft EACH and EVERY TIME his/her view of it is blocked by a wing or fuselage or cloud (canopy bars and supports not included) I might be persuaded to change my opinion of it. Until that time I will continue to disable it in every game I host. If you disagree with my approach you are invited to not join the games I host.

This is just my opinion and you are as welcome to your opinion as I am (or at least should be) to mine. If you disagree with me I would expect you to be able to do so without resorting to personal attacks or commenting on my intelligence, parentage, ethnicity or anything else you think you may know about me.

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:35 PM
I'm a noob. How do I get the gunsite aligned in the German plane? I think it's called a 1009 or something.

-------
I'm just saying...


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:37 PM
HeavyDelta wrote:
- I'm a noob. How do I get the gunsite aligned in the
- German plane? I think it's called a 1009 or
- something.
-
--------


-CTRL E

***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:43 PM
Fneb

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former W├╝rgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:45 PM
Control E? Okay thanks sir! S! and S! and S!

-------
I'm just saying...


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:47 PM
I can't believe you call yourself an ACE and do not use the look up button in conjunction to the hatswitch. It is not cumbersome at all (I do find switching between snap and pan view on the run to be cumbersome). It is so simple and so easy to that even a baby could do it. So lets say you are pressing up-left on your hatswitch to track a bogey and he starts to fly up and is leaving your view so you simply press the lookup button while keeping the hatswitch in the upleft position (I recommend a button on your throttle or on your joystick base, or mouse). If he then stays above and starts moving back you keep the lookup button depressed and move the hatswitch to the left position to keep tracking him with your snap view. Simple and effective. If you are using snap views and a hatswitch as your view system then you are putting yourself into a series disadvantage by not taking advantage of the look up button.

I don't know why I even bother posting this little bit of ace-education for you. But, you should give it a try if you use snap views you will never want to go back. To bad you will never feel the joy of using TrackIR which having used the mouse and the hatswitch I can easily say is much much better.

Snoop Baron

RayBanJockey wrote:
- Look up button? What the hell is that? Now you
- expect people to solve a Rubik's cube just to look
- somewhere? The hat is the hat. If there are other
- buttons involved (like toggle snap/pan view) that
- just makes it cumbersome.
-
- And since your limited point of view has trouble
- grasping the concept of infinity, go hook up your
- trackIR and look to the upper left corner. Then
- move 1 pixel over and count to 2. Then move 1 pixel
- over and count to 3. When you get to the millionth
- view then make your next posting and tell us of your
- status.


Snoop Baron

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 06:52 PM
What's padlock?

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Hawgdog
09-10-2003, 06:57 PM
End_Dump_Earl wrote:
- What's padlock?

Since most servers have gone closed cockpit, its a CHEAT! You fly around and keep clicking the F4 key until locks into a target, there fore you dont really need to look around, just fly inverted until you find a flyer.
cheat cheat cheat.
unless the server leans towards trackIR and closes the range down to 1.0 or 1.5 and then the padlock isnt a cheat anymore.
Glad to help

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:05 PM
What's TrackIR?

************************************************** **************
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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:15 PM
Hey Dump end. Track IR is something you dont want to try, as it may make you uncoordinated and you could lose your balance and break a rib /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:18 PM
nyngje? Funny name...:P



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:20 PM
TooCooL34 wrote:
- So your name is Crash_Man. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Yes? And?


Is that to insinuate that because I have an actual call sign, while you have a grade school description, that I sould not fly the wings of you?

I suppose all I can do is crash... man

<html>
<body>
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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:37 PM
Now THIS is more like it! "Threads on the edge".

I do not care about detailed descriptions of alternate ways to use the hat switch to track bad guys. I admit that it is possible, albeit a stupid anal way, to track targets with the hat switch.

Some one wrote about the realism of Il-2, that is a non-factor in this debate. No sim, computer game or VR can "really" simulate combat. This is the closest thing we have. Given that fact. Padlock, while not perfect, is MORE realistic than the hat switch. Further more it should not be DISABLED when the, mislabeled "REALISTIC" button is pushed. And another thing, while TrackIR may or may not be better than PL, TrackIR does not come in the box. With this in mind, I ask that servers (on-line wars, etc...) with padlock disabled, re-evaluate that decision based on the strong arguments for padlock in this thread. On the flip side I officially request that someone "in" with Oleg, ask that he allow for range adjustments for PL in game (he changed it once already...) so that the people who insist that people who use PL cheat will stop disabling PL.

Lastly, the asshattedness in this thread is growing at an exponential rate. Excellent job!!!

Where did that Target guy go anyway?


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Message Edited on 09/10/0302:38PM by Cardinal25

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:56 PM
Cardinal,

This debate appears to be very much centered on "realism". Almost every post, yours included, in this thread mentions the supposed "realism" of the different view mechanisms.

Use which ever one you prefer. Others will use what they prefer.

Using PL over the hat switch doesn't make you right and them wrong. Additionally, using the hat switch over PL doesn't make me right and you wrong. It is simply a personal preference.

You are entitled to your opinion. If you think PL is the end-all be-all that's fine. Others don't happen to agree with you.

If you don't like PL disabled games then stay away from them. It really is that simple. If you want a PL enabled game start one yourself.

By the way, was your intent starting this thread to actually try and gain a better understanding of why one may choose the hat switch over PL or PL over the hat switch or TrackIR over them all or was it simply to try and stir up a controversy and generate post count?

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:08 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- Actually the wank stain comment was directed at you
- alone.

Well I told your mom to wipe that up before she left. So dont blame me for the stain it left!

- I should have been clearer.

Agreed! When you said you want to argue, you should have been more clear.. You should have just said agree with me please.

- To this point you have not countered any argument
- for PL.

Not true... Well.. Maybe.. But just because you can not understand the answer does not mean it is not a valid answer.

- PL, while it has some minor things that need to be
- worked out (see original post)

LOL! So you do know it has issues that make it un-realistic!

- is far more realistic that using the hat
- switch or number pad.

Belive me when I say I belive you when you say you *think* it is more realistic! But I and other realise you belive that because you have a... fancy definition of realism. That is to say you belive it is real for a PC to do all the work for you, where as the rest of us think it is more realistic when you are in control of finding and tracking targets.. It really is that simple, are definiton of real is... well more REALISTIC! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- The "Realistic" button on the settings panel should
- be re-labeled to "Most Difficult". As we have
- established: harder settings do not mean more
- realistic.

Im sure you belive that too. Sad but true!


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:11 PM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Cardinal is a n00b? Is this some freaky alternate
- universe or something?

Call it nood, un-informed, ill-informed.. what ever you call it. I was just giving him the benifit of the doubt that he is NEW and thus a NOOB. In that it would really be said if he has been around for a really long time and not picked up on it yet.. That would make him just plane DUMB.



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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:13 PM
Jebus-checksix wrote:
- this is hilarious !

If it wasnt so sad.. it might be.

- targetreh, shut up! CLOWN !

What part of the title of this thread did you (and the guy who posted it) not understand?


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:17 PM
The part I don't get is why your avatar looks like a freshly jail-loved cowboy.

-------
I'm just saying...


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:31 PM
tagert wrote:
- Demolisher_ wrote:
-- Cardinal is a n00b? Is this some freaky alternate
-- universe or something?
-
- Call it nood, un-informed, ill-informed.. what ever
- you call it. I was just giving him the benifit of
- the doubt that he is NEW and thus a NOOB. In that it
- would really be said if he has been around for a
- really long time and not picked up on it yet.. That
- would make him just plane DUMB.

Grammar check, you called me dumb posting this? Ha!

Target is turning out to have a sense of humor after all.

He still dodges the question though.

How is the hat switch more realistic that PL?


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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:31 PM
HeavyDelta wrote:
- The part I don't get is why your avatar looks like a
- freshly jail-loved cowboy.

That is a good one.

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XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:32 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Look up button? What the hell is that?

OMG!! If this is not PROOF of how little your opinion on vies systems means.. I dont know what is! You really should spend some time reading the manual once.. Is this the first flight sim you have every used?

- Now you expect people to solve a Rubik's
- cube just to look somewhere?

OMG!! You call your self an ACE? And your brain is not connected to your hands in such a way that you can breath and move your fingers at the same time?

- The hat is the hat.

ROTFLMAO!!

- If there are other buttons involved (like toggle
- snap/pan view) that just makes it cumbersome.

WRONG! What part of RE-MAPPING keys do you not understand?

- And since your limited point of view has trouble
- grasping the concept of infinity, go hook up your
- trackIR and look to the upper left corner. Then
- move 1 pixel over and count to 2. Then move 1 pixel
- over and count to 3. When you get to the millionth
- view then make your next posting and tell us of your
- status.

ROTFLMAO! Well it is clear you dont know what infinte means.. But allow me to play your game for a moment.. Keep in mind your game is where we are talking about view range.. but we are NOT talking about view range (dont as me, that is your definition). With that said.. What EXTRA info am I getting when I move from one pixel to the next THAT GIVES ME THIS BIG ADVANTAGE you keep refering too? And, how does that pixel differ when I view it from TrackIR or the POV HAT? It is in the same location, and I can see it with either TrackIR or one of the POV HAT postions.. I know you wont answer this, but it sure would be a ROTFLMAO watching you try and or dodging it.

By the way.. Still wainting for an answer on those previous quesions.



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