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Paahdin
07-11-2006, 01:54 PM
I'm unable to keep speed in manouvering and always my speed drops to about 200km/h. Am I too rude to my plane, or what's problem, could some "ace" send me video where he does various manouvers is done right. And any advices are welcome...

Thanks in advance.

justflyin
07-11-2006, 02:11 PM
It depends on various things, but I generally like to keep energy and enter a merge turn where I expect to get on my bogey's six at aproximately 450-500km/h and ride the edge of the blackout.

A loop over is faster with flaps and elevator trim than a loop under with the same, everytime. Easier to bleed speed going over the top, than at the bottom.

Here are a few tips for you to try in your next few dogfights:

1. If the dogfight is going to become low and slow, it will inevitabely fall to 200km/h or under often. Use lots of rudder to help maintain the turn angles and to help prevent stalling.

2. Use full flaps and elevator trim to get over the top of slow loops and different flaps settings and trim to get a little more nose around in a slow turn. Combat flaps yield a slightly faster turning circle than full flaps, but each setting can be used at different times to advantage.

3. If he has slightly more energy, but not enough to climb away, use full flaps, full-up elevator trim, throttle and pitch at 100% and use rudder to keep plane from stalling as you maintain a climb angle to stay close enough that he can't do a quick hammerhead without exposing himself to your guns.

4. Adjust the joystick profile in the INPUT section, off of the MAIN menu to create a smooth upward curve of sliders, with first number starting at around 20 for Pitch and Roll axes. Adjust for your flying style from there. There is a link to a joystick setup program in the sticky at the top of the forum.

5. YAW axis must be lowered to help prevent high-speed stalls and improve gunnery. This will gve you more stability and forgiveness when you get a little ham-fisted (or ham-footed in the case of pedals) on the rudder.

Always think ahead, always try to anticipate what your opponent will do next and beat him to that "spot" in the sky. The top two skills of a Fighter Pilot:

a. Gunnery

b. Situational Awareness

Know your plane's strengths versus your opponent's weaknesses. Always exploit them at every given opportunity. Good luck!

WWMaxGunz
07-11-2006, 02:29 PM
You let your speed get under 300kph in a fight?

Spend time just flying till you get that right. No fighting. Nothing to get your head away
from knowing what you and the plane are doing. And fly only one plane till you know what you
(you, not it) can do and can't. Take a month and do it right. Set your view so you can see
the ball and the VSI. The rest are on the speedbar. Learn to correlate maneuver, speed and
engine/prop sound to what is going on. Eventually you may fly the 109 on manual prop without
blowing the engine. But start simple and work up.

It will help if you remap a lot of the keys too, depending on your controller and style.

If you want to get serious, find a ground school book for real pilot instruction. You will
fly better if you can learn the basics there.

justflyin
07-11-2006, 03:40 PM
Any real life flight tactics books are good references, but always remember you are playing a game. Each control doesn't work the same as in real life and you must learn how to use the game controls and fly the game planes.

The books on tactics give great insight to dogfighting and such, but again, they should be used as reference only, IMHO, as the game situations of a virtual combat flight sim are different in many areas. Just an FYI and not meant as a response to anyone's posting.

I like to give tips from actual gameplay and how to get the true most out of the sim and it's little idiosyncrasies.

P.S. I'll have to load up Kuna's online tracks when I get home. Maybe I'll learn a little sumthin, sumthin. ;^)

Remember....

"The man who stops learning is the man who stops growing."

slipBall
07-11-2006, 03:59 PM
I agree with the above poster's, it's a practice thing, lots & lots of practice. Look at your slipball, try and keep it centered as much as you can, if your aircraft is "crabing" through the sky, thats a speed loss, are you holding the nose up at too high a angle, thats another speed lose. Prop pitch? Read the manual in your game folder, seek out flight theory literature on the web, a simple google search brings up alot of info. Try keeping your speed high, that way your aircraft will be more responsive if you are surprised by a attacker. In a very broad gereral use, use diving for defensive maneuvers, climbing for offensive maneuvers, this is not a hard rule, anything goes in combat

Practice maneuvers, pick one, practice till you could do it in your sleep, then go on to the next one learning them all.

Here are a few that you should learn.

Offensive:

"Hammerhead" (was the original Immelmann) this offensive move, with proper timing, will change your direction 180 degrees, it will put you right on his tail with luck, with a large speed increase

Immelmann or "half-loop" again giving a 180 course change, with large speed increase, a must to learn

High and low "yo yo's" very easy to learn, can increase, or decrease your airspeed

Defensive maneuvers:

"break"

"barrel roll"

"the split-s" one of my favorites

"the dive"

Only when you master these manuvers will you have a decent chance of survival, good luck!

slipBall
07-11-2006, 04:10 PM
Remember....

"The man who stops learning is the man who stops growing."


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I like that

TeufelHund84
07-11-2006, 07:24 PM
Just a quick aside Slipball, is the slipball (as in the one in cockpit) kept centered by maintaining a fair amount of speed and staying away from using rudder? I've heard it's good to keep it centered but I never found an explanation as to why, and regardless it's DANG hard to keep it real centered.

So sorry for the slight hijacking.

huggy87
07-11-2006, 08:02 PM
...bad spelling

Unknown_Target
07-11-2006, 08:15 PM
Just a general tip that I've found; always make your turns downwards if you can; kick your rudder over and put your nose at a downward angle towards the ground. It'll give you some speed with only a very little loss of altitude (as long as it's a shallow angle). Then you can use that excess speed to make climbing turns. Alternating the two properly will usually keep your speed very high for most of the time

F19_Ob
07-12-2006, 04:19 AM
My suggestions are intended mainly for online but should be as valid offline.

It all depends on what plane u fly and what the opponent has.
Many allied planes are underpowered compared to german planes (for example).
Bf109's may win over better level-turners because of it's accelleration and climb.

A few examples:
A bf109F4 will get behind a Hurricane in about 2 loops but would have a harder time in level turning with it.

Usually a bf 109F4 wins over following underpowered opponents (if flown correctly).

I-153
I-16
Hurricanes
P40
P39
Yak1-yak7
LaGG3

The 109 does not win in level turning as easily but in vertical turning these allied planes lose so much energy that they become very difficult to handle and risk spins if they stall (wich the 109 doesn't).
In this slow region the 109 can start climbing steeply in a spiral wich the allied can't follow with so little energy, and if they try to draw deflection to shoot at the 109, they loose the little energy they had.

A mediumgood pilot in the 109F4 online should be able to win over these allied most of the time. A 109 expert would only have to be concerned in engagements with spitfires and Later yaks and later the La5fn-La7 wich all have enough energy to turn with a 109F-G2 in the vertical.

So if u're sitting in any of the above allied planes against a 109 u are up against a superior plane, wich is better overall in handling.
Your plane is harder to handle in all aspects and altitudes and has no automated systems.
You are also outgunned and usually crippled or finished after one cannon-hit.
In this situation online you can only survive if u have mates to cover u.

-------------------------------------------

Another thing to remember is to avoid engaging opponents that have the advantage of height.
Climb to atleast 1000m over own field before u continue to climb to your patrol area.
Don't climb in a straight line, but in a lazy turn so u can look behind once in a while.
Avoid climbing in enemy territory.
If u get low, race to own lines before starting climbing again (if u can).

Know your enemys plane compared to yours, so u know what u can get away with and not.



What I could think of at the moment.

Paahdin
07-12-2006, 01:53 PM
Usually in dogfight, seems that almost always my enemys are, faster and/or turn faster than me. And sometimes I get behind them, they are faster and flee from me. Almost only way I have managed to shoot enemy down, is when I'm high and behind them and make dive to their 6'.

StG2_Schlachter
07-12-2006, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
I agree with the above poster's, it's a practice thing, lots & lots of practice. Look at your slipball, try and keep it centered as much as you can, if your aircraft is "crabing" through the sky, thats a speed loss, are you holding the nose up at too high a angle, thats another speed lose. Prop pitch? Read the manual in your game folder, seek out flight theory literature on the web, a simple google search brings up alot of info. Try keeping your speed high, that way your aircraft will be more responsive if you are surprised by a attacker. In a very broad gereral use, use diving for defensive maneuvers, climbing for offensive maneuvers, this is not a hard rule, anything goes in combat

Practice maneuvers, pick one, practice till you could do it in your sleep, then go on to the next one learning them all.

Here are a few that you should learn.

Offensive:

"Hammerhead" (was the original Immelmann) this offensive move, with proper timing, will change your direction 180 degrees, it will put you right on his tail with luck, with a large speed increase

Immelmann or "half-loop" again giving a 180 course change, with large speed increase, a must to learn

High and low "yo yo's" very easy to learn, can increase, or decrease your airspeed

Defensive maneuvers:

"break"

"barrel roll"

"the split-s" one of my favorites

"the dive"

Only when you master these manuvers will you have a decent chance of survival, good luck!

Also useful are Chandelle and corkscrew dive.
And try to get some info on "lead turns" and "lag turns", the difference between turning "head to tail" and "head to head" and "angle advantage" and "position advantage".

Akronnick
07-13-2006, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by Paahdin:
Usually in dogfight, seems that almost always my enemys are, faster and/or turn faster than me. And sometimes I get behind them, they are faster and flee from me. Almost only way I have managed to shoot enemy down, is when I'm high and behind them and make dive to their 6'.

Exactly...

Always attack only when you have the advantage. The planes in this sim don't have enough power to accelerate quickly, but you can always convert altitude to airspeed.

See the enemy first... Climb to a higher altitude... Attack... repeat as needed.

HotelBushranger
07-13-2006, 03:07 AM
You are also outgunned and usually crippled or finished after one cannon-hit.

I disagree. Except for fluke shots, one cannon shell is not enough to bring down a plane.

Also consider the psychological aspect of an aeroplane. The majority of people here disregard, for eg, the P-40 for its lack of manouverability. However, due to practice and patience, I have been able to horizontal fight with La-7s, and draw the dogfight. Another time, an La-5FN was on my tail. I chopped the throttle and pulled up and into a barrel roll, which brought me 25m away and behind him dead 6. He had no idea what to do, and therefore went down.
So, especially with 'un-manouverable' planes, learn its ins and outs, and you will able to surprise others with what they think is impossible in that plane.

Xiolablu3
07-13-2006, 03:23 AM
I never really understood the Immelmann manouvers benefit after WW1 fighter combat.

Surely when you climb and end up inverted, you lose a lot of speed, and the bogey will just carry on extending?

Am I thinking of the manouvre wrong?

I thought it was this :- A plane is flying above you in the opposite direction, so you 'cross' paths as he goes over you and you go under him. Then you pull back on the stick until you do a half loop and are on his 6, then finally flip your plane the right way up.

Is this correct? If so, I cannot see it being much use in WW2 fighter combat as you would lose so much speed in the climb that the enemy plane would have to be going very slow in order for you to catch it after that manouvre?

Can anyone give me any hints on what I am doing wrong here pls?

HotelBushranger
07-13-2006, 04:06 AM
That's what I thought too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Xiolablu3
07-13-2006, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
That's what I thought too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I cannot say I have ever really found the manouvre I described above, useful in combat, if that is indeed an Immelmann, HotelBR.

I guess it became relevant again with the use of hi powered jets, where a climb doesnt lose so much speed.

Maybe we are loking at it wrong, and someone can explain it properly. I have only seen a couple of diagrams which looked just like what I typed above.

Akronnick
07-13-2006, 04:45 AM
It can be useful if your merging with the bandit at the same altitude but you have the advantage in speed. By pulling up you convert your speed to altitude and can turn harder without losing energy.

slipBall
07-13-2006, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I never really understood the Immelmann manouvers benefit after WW1 fighter combat.

Surely when you climb and end up inverted, you lose a lot of speed, and the bogey will just carry on extending?

Am I thinking of the manouvre wrong?

I thought it was this :- A plane is flying above you in the opposite direction, so you 'cross' paths as he goes over you and you go under him. Then you pull back on the stick until you do a half loop and are on his 6, then finally flip your plane the right way up.

Is this correct? If so, I cannot see it being much use in WW2 fighter combat as you would lose so much speed in the climb that the enemy plane would have to be going very slow in order for you to catch it after that manouvre?

Can anyone give me any hints on what I am doing wrong here pls?


The two aircraft should not have a large vertical separation to begin with.
Yes, you described the execution correctly, this maneuver is very dependent on timing, and speed. If you see a approching enemy, quick look at your airspeed,(don't do the move if too low airspeed) and compass. As the enemy get's closer, 3or4 times effective bullet range, do your maneuver. I usally go into a slightly steep dive, then I do the Immelmann. As you are climbing, max out your upper view, looking for, and locking on to the enemy aircraft, which will be about .50m when first sighted, roll out, adjust to stay on him. Use your height advantage to quickly gain on him. Try this in qmb, once mastered, you will have another trick up your sleeve. As for ww2, yes this was widely used. This move is my favorite

F19_Ob
07-13-2006, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are also outgunned and usually crippled or finished after one cannon-hit.

I disagree. Except for fluke shots, one cannon shell is not enough to bring down a plane.

Also consider the psychological aspect of an aeroplane. The majority of people here disregard, for eg, the P-40 for its lack of manouverability. However, due to practice and patience, I have been able to horizontal fight with La-7s, and draw the dogfight. Another time, an La-5FN was on my tail. I chopped the throttle and pulled up and into a barrel roll, which brought me 25m away and behind him dead 6. He had no idea what to do, and therefore went down.
So, especially with 'un-manouverable' planes, learn its ins and outs, and you will able to surprise others with what they think is impossible in that plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well m8, U are welcome to disagre....
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I and olli have had a test going for a year or so where we compared the 109's with mg151 canon against the mentioned underperforming allied planes.
In our experience it's true.
On my tracks from online (record every session) one mg151-cannon hit is usually enough to cripple my plane so it's easily overtaken (one may lose about 30-40Kph after one hit).
One ofcourse usually get hit more than once but on the onehit tracks I've gone through this has been the case.

When secretly flying the 109 online about 90% of my kills on these allied planes required only one pass. These have mostly resulted in a couple of hits though, but most go down.
In bout 60% of the planes that get hit there is no visible damage on the skin.
The most common visual damage is thin smoke, but the hit planes usually go down because of controls- or pilot-damage.


Note that I don't say that one can't kill in these allied. I mostly fly inferior planes online (like all old hands should).


Well my opinion

Cheers

slipBall
07-13-2006, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by TeufelHund84:
Just a quick aside Slipball, is the slipball (as in the one in cockpit) kept centered by maintaining a fair amount of speed and staying away from using rudder? I've heard it's good to keep it centered but I never found an explanation as to why, and regardless it's DANG hard to keep it real centered.

So sorry for the slight hijacking.

Try rudder trim for some help, try kicking the same rudder peddel, what ever side the ball is at.
You want to try and keep it centered. If it is not, then you are flying at less than optimum, increasing your drag, lowering your airspeed, increasing gravity's pull.

rnzoli
07-13-2006, 05:41 AM
increasing gravity's pull.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif Raaaid, come quick...! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slipBall
07-13-2006, 05:51 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.giflol, yes, because the 4 forces will be out of balance, gravity like's that, gravity like's to win http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WWMaxGunz
07-13-2006, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by TeufelHund84:
Just a quick aside Slipball, is the slipball (as in the one in cockpit) kept centered by maintaining a fair amount of speed and staying away from using rudder? I've heard it's good to keep it centered but I never found an explanation as to why, and regardless it's DANG hard to keep it real centered.

So sorry for the slight hijacking.

Slip is how much the plane is not pointing where it is going. It's a drag, literally.

Slip will also throw your aim off. Your shots will have a vector that is sideways to where
the sight is pointing. That can be usable but unless you're a crack shot sorry you hit only
by luck. The vector will be small unless the slip is large, at close range it amounts to
less than 1 meter but still you don't want slip.
Also note that flying slow or in hard turns or loops you will have a vertical form of slip
to take into consideration when shooting. Nose high, shots go lower. Slip left, shots
go right, etc. That is the effect as seen from through the gunsight.

Slip will get you into a spin from stall. If you keep your flight coordinated (no slip)
then you will not spin in a stall. Get slow enough in a stall though or just stall hard
enough and you won't be able to keep your flight coordinated. Best thing is don't stall!

Try and find "the ball" in a Spit IX cockpit, hehe. Took me a while. It's not a ball at
all. Down at the lower right there is a double indicator for turn and slip, two needle
guages one above the other. You won't see them unless you hat down one step from default
front view.

Practice flying enough and you will know pretty close when you are flying straight and not.
It takes a LOT of flying practice in a sim since you don't have the feel of your butt on
the seat. So practice just flying with your view down watching the guages and not much
over the dash visible for most planes. You can do it. Or you can keep getting killed
while paying attention to things that won't teach you much about flying. Your time, your
choice. Just remember that many online have been playing these sims for a long time.

Real combat flying means never letting yourself get much below maneuver speed if at all.
That is the speed at which you turn your fastest, usually 320 to 420 kph depending on the
plane and year. You want to be faster on entry.

WWMaxGunz
07-13-2006, 06:20 AM
BTW, if the ball (or needle) is to the left then give it some left rudder.
Watching the ball in the F4U's, I am able to keep the shooting straight even with the
yaw tendency and I have a twisty-stick instead of those much-needed pedals.

As of 4.something the auto-rudder tendency noted for the series by many actual pilots
is gone. Proper rudder use is neccessary which it is not in most combat flight sims.
Pedals are the best way, period, which is why some people go to the trouble to make
their own -- the cheap pedals you can find are krap toys.