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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 04:46 PM
Was there something like using captured enemy planes for the regular front line service? I know Germans used some captured B-17 for some covert operations, without much success. Captured Polish equipment was passed to German allies such as Romania. But what about captured French or British equipment of 1940? What about the enormous numbers of soviet planes that were probably captured in 1941? They were using captured guns, trucks, trains, tanks even, so why not planes?

What about Russians or Americans capturing German planes in 1944?

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 04:46 PM
Was there something like using captured enemy planes for the regular front line service? I know Germans used some captured B-17 for some covert operations, without much success. Captured Polish equipment was passed to German allies such as Romania. But what about captured French or British equipment of 1940? What about the enormous numbers of soviet planes that were probably captured in 1941? They were using captured guns, trucks, trains, tanks even, so why not planes?

What about Russians or Americans capturing German planes in 1944?

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 04:58 PM
Hans,

Many French planes were sold to Germany's allies such as Finland and Rumania. They were also used by the Vichy French.

It would be very dangerous to use captured German a/c in 1944.

Tully__
08-01-2003, 05:01 PM
All participants flew extensive test programs with captured aircraft.


Most participants made occasional use of captured aircraft in covert operations and some used them in mainstream operations.

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:03 PM
Heres another example;

After the Italian surrender to the allies the germans captured as many planes they could, mainly Mc 202 and 205's. If i remember correct Mc202 was used as trainingaircraft and second line duty, Mc205 was used as a frontline fighter. I dont know how many though.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:15 PM
Pokrishkin mentioned in his memoirs that there was a white/red Yak flown by german ace. It shot down quiet a few planes before it was hunted down and killed. Also, Pokrishkin himself flew 109G6 not once, for testing and even on the couple of small missions.

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:49 PM
The Japanese equiped an entire squadron with captured P-40s then managed to attack some of their own bombers IIRC.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/captured_p-40.htm

http://mysite.freeserve.com/IL2_Skins/Photo_3.html
http://www.j-aircraft.com/captured/capturedby/p40warhawk/captured_p40.htm




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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:02 PM
The Luftwaffa captured 2 P-38's. 1 was flown for testing and training, and the other was used on quite a few covert ops. Mainly close inspections of Allied bomber formations, looking for a weak spot. There were many accounts of a yellow and black P-38 stalking bomber formations. The Tuskeegy airmen also made note. The Luftwaffa paid special attention to them and even fallowed them back to the airbase. Both were re-captured at the end of the war. I wonder what the German pilot thought of it flying?

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:29 PM
As a result of alies bombings over Ploiesti, many B-24 were shot down and managed to crash-land with more or less succes. There are infos about at least 2 B-24 repaired by romanian technicians, and used in active service.
IIRC, one of those was destroyed by german attacks after 23 august '44.

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:34 PM
There are many photos of captured Soviet aircraft in Finnish markings - LaGG3, Polik I-16, Polik I-165, Tup- SB2, Beriv MBR-2

How many were used in operations though?

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 11:15 PM
Any one would use something they captured more so if it was better then there own, one of the delays for the Germans on the eastern front was when they took over Hitler refused to let them use the Russian rail system so they had to go out and widen all the tracks they needed to use to fit their engines.

As for bombers shot down B-17's where used for training for the Germans complained they would empty their guns and it kept flying on. They were told later the best way to down one was head on less guns and easy killing of pilots.

As for some countries equipment which we wont name names, was below standard or just plain out poor, and were not used except for parts or dire emergencies. Some even at the start of the war still used horse drawn carts for their troops. Other then meat, or labor works i don't see any of the advance troops using them.

Even down to uniforms the Germans and the Japs both used US uniforms to get into and behind enemy lines and with some great success.

PlatinumDragon...

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 11:27 PM
FreedomMH wrote:
- There are many photos of captured Soviet aircraft in
- Finnish markings - LaGG3, Polik I-16, Polik I-165,
- Tup- SB2, Beriv MBR-2
-
- How many were used in operations though?
-
-


I know the finns had about 15 Polikarpov I-153's wich were in use, also i know of a Pe-2 cos i think they only had 1...but it saw operational use anyway. Considering the constant need for aircrafts i would think they used any aircraft airworthy. Remember the finns used the Fiat G50 & other really outdated models until the wars end /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 01:01 AM
Here is an interesting link to discussions and photos of some captured Luftwaffe aircraft:

http://pub157.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm89

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:02 AM
This is an interesting topic. Can you imagine how that German P-38 pilot felt when he was flying near American formations. You would have to think there would be the constant fear of being discovered for what you are. If he was studying B-17's and was found out, he'd be a sitting duck for the gunners. Does anyone have any other covert sortie stories?
Sounds like the makings of a great single-mission...



PlatinumDragon wrote:
- Any one would use something they captured more so if
- it was better then their own,

Not neccessarily. Political and morale reasons exist. Actively using the enemy's equipment could evoke speculation among fighting men and citizens that the enemy's planes are indeed superior. By using captured aircraft for a training role, there is an underlying suggestion that the enemy's planes are not up to the front line standards of one's own country--which is much better for morale. Of course, using captured aircraft for covert ops is a no-brainer.

Conversely, the psychological effects of using captured aircraft in combat are valuable, too. Image flying in American P-40's in the Pacific. Your flight encounters a flight of Japanese captured P-40's. You know for certain that the enemy is capable of anthing you are--evenly matched, as it were. Also, you know that any gunners will have a tougher time distingushing friendlies from enemies. While a scenario such as this may have never happened, there is definetly sound psychological warfare reasoning behind it. It would also make an interesting single-mission.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:22 AM
The germans used much equipment which was captured. For example the 7:th welle division used rifles guns etc that they found or took from enemies. When the german army invaded Norway many divisions where manned by overaged ww1 veterans.
These divisions where organized in the beginning of sept 1939 and they where equipped with captured polish material. If someone is familiar with logistics, see that there are potential problems here.
So I find it most likly that germans did so with aeroplanes too.
Heinz Knoke writes that LW hade some flying circuss with allied planes, just to find out that they prefeared their own. Much of the planes caracteristics had its origns in the tactics that their airforce used.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:32 AM
Yes. The Luftwaffa had a regular fleet of captured Allied aircraft they flew from airbase to airbase. They would use these to train pilots on weak points, like how to approach B-17's or the advantages/disadvantages of allied fighters compaired to axis fighters. These were typically painted in yellow with black markings. I know they had a few B-17's and at least 1 B-24 along with a few of every fighter type.

The allies approached it differantly. Many Luftwaffa aircraft were captured intact early on by confused pilots landing on British runways. An early example of this was a FW-190 A4. The US took one and tested it against navy aircraft like the F4F, F6F, and F4U and published its findings to the aircraft designers and its pilots.

A well informed pilot always had a leg up if he knew the capability's and limits of his enemy. This information was CRITICAL, and very accurate. Because if you state that an F4U could turn inside a FW-190, and that was false, it would get a lot of pilots killed.

Gib

zugfuhrer wrote:
- Heinz Knoke writes that LW hade some flying circuss
- with allied planes, just to find out that they
- prefeared their own. Much of the planes
- caracteristics had its origns in the tactics that
- their airforce used.
-
-
-
-



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