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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 09:40 PM
It seems that 1C:Maddox is going to learn what other developers have learned over the years starting with ID Software, Epic Games and other companies that have a larger customer base, and it's a little sad to see.

I can see the writing on the wall and it really is a shame considering how forthcoming 1C has been with divulging information here especially in the early days of IL2. Apparantly, Oleg himself posted information and debated quite regularly here.

What I'm talking about is that the more whining about delays will end up making them just not want to bother giving us dates at all and end up doing what ID does. They will simply not want to put themselves out with anything more than a general idea of release dates.



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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 09:40 PM
It seems that 1C:Maddox is going to learn what other developers have learned over the years starting with ID Software, Epic Games and other companies that have a larger customer base, and it's a little sad to see.

I can see the writing on the wall and it really is a shame considering how forthcoming 1C has been with divulging information here especially in the early days of IL2. Apparantly, Oleg himself posted information and debated quite regularly here.

What I'm talking about is that the more whining about delays will end up making them just not want to bother giving us dates at all and end up doing what ID does. They will simply not want to put themselves out with anything more than a general idea of release dates.



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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:17 PM
PriK wrote:
- What I'm talking about is that the more whining
- about delays will end up making them just not want
- to bother giving us dates at all and end up doing
- what ID does. They will simply not want to put
- themselves out with anything more than a general
- idea of release dates.

Yeah, iD always did that and I think they're right for doing it.
Q: When's it coming out?!
A: When it's done.


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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:19 PM
Of course, their .plan more than made up for the lack of dates..

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:22 PM
maxmars wrote:
- Of course, their .plan more than made up for the
- lack of dates..

Good point... they were fun to watch.

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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:38 PM
It's too bad really. That's one of the things that attracted me to this forum - the fact that Oleg himself would kick it with his fanbase right here in ORR without having to be all politically correct or corporate.

Unfortunately, it's a bit like a presidential candidate that has to have every word they say gone over with a fine tooth comb so people won't misconstrue his statements. Folks here go over every word that Oleg types, in spite of english not being his native tongue, and taking it all literally. Or calling him on every single nuance.

Thanks to these people that will take everything he says as a contract we will be seeing less and less of Oleg in these parts unless it's the "corporate-cleaned" Oleg. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

We'll also be getting patch release projections in terms of "when it's done" or "two more weeks" and any extraneous information on what he is working on will just be left out so they won't have to deal with the negativity.

Maybe that's the price of increasing success but it's sad.



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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:43 PM
Thank you PriK for showing how truly pointless and deconstructive the endless nagging of a bunch of impatient noobs is. I do have a life besides FB and I'm willing to continue waiting so that more issues can be addressed and fixed when it does come. The irony of this whole matter is that the very same noobs that continue to whine day in and day out will come back screaming and pitch a tantrum that certain things have been changed that they don't like or that really insignificant things have yet to be changed.

---------------------------------------
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I STILL love my 109!

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:48 PM
There's been a hell of a lot of pressure for a patch to come out and it's still not out yet.
If the so called patch whiners hadn't been doing their thing (whining?) please tell me what year would the next patch release date be?
The problem with FB is not the whining.
There's always whining.
Whining has it's pluses.
It tells people there are expectations.
The more whining the bigger the expectations or the need to react.
If you came out and said "sorry to disturb you, would you mind fixing a couple of things, Oh, I'm sorry, I see you are busy with something else" you would never get anything done.
There's a limit to everything of course but looking to put a limit to whining or asses the damage whining may do is not the most important thing here.


<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:49 PM
MackZ wrote:
The
- irony of this whole matter is that the very same
- noobs that continue to whine day in and day out will
- come back screaming and pitch a tantrum that certain
- things have been changed that they don't like or
- that really insignificant things have yet to be
- changed.
-

It's ironic that the same ones will whine about why Oleg or Ubi never posts here to update us. Why would they when every word they say will be taken literally or out of context.

I really hope I'm wrong about all this cause you don't often get to converse with the developer on the details of their product in a constructive atmosphere.



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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 10:51 PM
why do people never accept that oh-so famous line

"when its done"

every wants high quality stuff thats free, now. they want like it grows on trees and ask for new planes as if they also grow on the proverbial trees

-i blame the newbies /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:01 PM
Patches don't grow on trees either.
Some people asked for them.
I'm sure there are some guys out there who feel a patch coming out is something inevitable.
Nature doing it's thing maybe?
Well, not really.
I know it's the work of Oleg and it's team.
I just don't see them working their a*s off just for the sake of it.
They are doing it because the feedback they get from the customers is that FB needs more work to be complete.

<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:39 PM
MackZ wrote:
- Thank you PriK for showing how truly pointless and
- deconstructive the endless nagging of a bunch of
- impatient noobs is. I do have a life besides FB and
- I'm willing to continue waiting so that more issues
- can be addressed and fixed when it does come. The
- irony of this whole matter is that the very same
- noobs that continue to whine day in and day out will
- come back screaming and pitch a tantrum that certain
- things have been changed that they don't like or
- that really insignificant things have yet to be
- changed.


errrr .... ever bought a product and it was defective or didnt run as you were led to believe? What did you do? Shrug your shoulders and say ... oh well what's a guy to do? ... LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ... You take it back or demand it gets fixed.

If you then get told it will be fixed in 2 weeks which turn to 2 months ... then 3 ...

Why would we whine ??? LOL ... are you daff???? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:47 PM
h009291 wrote:
-
- errrr .... ever bought a product and it was
- defective or didnt run as you were led to believe?
- What did you do? Shrug your shoulders and say ... oh
- well what's a guy to do? ... LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ... You take it back
- or demand it gets fixed.
-
- If you then get told it will be fixed in 2 weeks
- which turn to 2 months ... then 3 ...
-
- Why would we whine ??? LOL ... are you daff????
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
-


Nice try with the "product" analogy. I at least got to thank you for not using a "If you buy a car..." analogy. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If what you say was the case for software, we wouldn't have seen FB until Christmas this year and even then it would have bugs so there goes your theory out the window.

I won't bother getting into the differences between microwave ovens and software, I'll just assume you're intelligent enough to figure it out for yourself and draw your own conclusions. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:53 PM
The product analogy of h009291 is correct.
It's based on the general idea that you get what you paid for which is what the product was advertised to be.
As far as the release date for the original without the bugs would be:
1)We don't have to take a guess.
As long as it would take to bring out the promised product
2)Having the whole team working on FB would get it out many times gaster that having the majority of the team working on 'Loc on' since FB is now out.


<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

Cpt.LoneRanger
08-07-2003, 12:16 AM
If they learned not to make any statements about release-dates from the "big" software-producers, I sure hope they'll also take over some other things they have learned.

For example sharing pre-release-patches with the community to check if they run on several machines and in those odd situations, the beta-testers never thought of.

Or the constant flow of information, may it be screenies, vids or just the little news like "Hey, you know what? We're just testing the thingie and it is a LOT better than the older thingie-version."

Again, I don't think it is the lack of dates that makes the masses restless. It's just that you hear NOTHING, except some strange posts from some Russian forums....


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:19 AM
Oh I see, the patch isn't out on time because people were desperate for it. Had we all shut up then of course it would have arrived 'in the week starting 4 Aug.' Probably months ago actually. In fact, if no one had said a thing FB would have been patched so that it worked 'as advertized' within days of its release.

Meanwhile, in the real world, I paid for this game and I want the faults, which 5 minutes of testing could have discovered, fixed.

Dates they can't stick to are worthless, so a (very inaccurate) general idea is all we get anyway.

The patch won't arrive this week and we could have been informed of that at any time this week, but they chose not to say a thing. I said as much on my squad forums last Monday. Should I be proved wrong, and the patch be released this week as promised, I'll come on and apologise right here. Do any anti-patch-whiners have the balls to say, 'Yes, Ubi will stick to their word and produce the patch this week?'

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:31 AM
While it's true that a product shouldn't be marketed before it's perfected, it is my belief that there is very little robust software that is released before it's completely de-bugged. Putting money in the bank to keep the business running comes into play, right or wrong.
With all the different platforms running the same software, you're going have problems.
I do feel for you folks that have patiently waited for the patch and have been led to believe that it's just around the corner. Perhaps a bad marketing strategy for Ubi.
However, it's a game. Just a game. Nothing more than a game.
I'm a "noob" and you know what? I am just patiently waiting for the patch. I didn't have any experience with flight sims at all until about a year ago,but I've worked in the video game industry for 22 years.(pacman, asteroids and such at the beginning)
You think you guys are getting screwed because you spent 30-40 dollars on the sim. and it doesn't work just like you like it. Try spending 30-40 thousand dollars on full size videos, have a program problem, and have the manufacturer tell you"Well, we've never had that problem here" and be lucky to get a fix for free. Or try spending 150,000 dollars on dart boards that the manufacturer tells you that is the best thing to hit the market, and then have that manufacturer quit production of the product three months later and not offer any product support at all. Can you say lawsuit?
I, personally, think the sims we have available are damn good and they will continue to get better(I hope).
In other words, relax, the fix will be provided. Repeat after me, It's only a game, it's only a game.
hobiewan the noobster

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 01:06 AM
I think patch updates would be far more usefull than screen shots of up coming planes.

To post release dates, and not stand by them, is not good.
The only thing worse is no patch at all.

Oh, wait.....we don't have one.

BTW, buying the game gives every owner the right to whine.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 01:20 AM
Buying the game give you the right to contact the manufacturer. Whining is for girly men.
hobiewan,setting himself up for the flame ;-)
BTW, I'd rather wait another month for them to be confident that they've addressed all of the issues, than to be pressed into releasing a flawed patch and creating a firestorm of it's own right.
Bye



Message Edited on 08/07/0301:22AM by hobiewan

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 01:42 AM
i can say with some confidence, no, alot of confidence, that the patch will be released on Thursday, August 7 at around 12:00PM

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 01:58 AM
BTW, did I forget to add to my post: WHERE THE HECK IS THE PATCH?
hobiewhiner :-)

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:02 AM
I`d like to present my point of view about the patch thing.If I`m wrong in something,please take the time to enlighten me.


Games have a certain release date.This date can be postponed if the game needs more work.However many games for some reason(need of $ income,pressure of a producer,etc.)are being released unfinished.

This "problem" can be solved.Developers place needed fixes ,that haven`t made their way into gold version, into a zip file that is called "patch".

Now my understanding is that all patches should be free.Patches are a part of tech support which developers <u>guarantee</u>.Otherwise the producer/developing team of a cetain game won`t have a good reputation.We all know that reputation is a strong point of anyone willing to be successful on the market,game market that is.


Am I right?

The way I see it a patch is a completion of a game that is not working like it should\isn`t finished.Producer is obliged to provide the patch as quick as it`s possible.


I don`t see any reason to be "thankful" for it like many of you tell me to be.There are no free planes in da patch,so fix the g*ddamn game already.


Finally,it is not my concern that it takes them 4 months to create the supplement.They could have picked another way to fix FB.Multiple patches divided into bug cathegories,whatever.
I`m a customer that has been given BS recently and I`m not pleased.



I have a life.Nonetheless I`ve bought a product that has gone gold and isn`t finished.Therefore I haven`t got the quality that was guaranteed.




"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:13 AM
Wow, this is the first time I have read this forum and all this conversation about the patch and whinning about the patch. Didn't know there was such a big stink about it. I guess I spend to much time flying FB and enjoying what has to be the best Combat Flight Sim on the market today. Yes it's not like the real world but I believe that is why they call it a SIMULATOR! I and the group I "simulate" with have a hoot with it and would continue to do so even without a patch. If Oleg makes improvements we'll offer our thanks, if he never makes another update we're still grateful for the fine program Oleg and his team have put together. But enough of this, it's cutting into my fly time.

Thank you again Oleg: AFSG_Weasle



Message Edited on 08/07/0301:15AM by Steve_K

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:44 AM
PriK wrote:
- It seems that 1C:Maddox is going to learn what other
- developers have learned over the years starting with
- ID Software, Epic Games and other companies that
- have a larger customer base, and it's a little sad
- to see.
-
- I can see the writing on the wall and it really is a
- shame considering how forthcoming 1C has been with
- divulging information here especially in the early
- days of IL2. Apparantly, Oleg himself posted
- information and debated quite regularly here.
-
- What I'm talking about is that the more whining
- about delays will end up making them just not want
- to bother giving us dates at all and end up doing
- what ID does. They will simply not want to put
- themselves out with anything more than a general
- idea of release dates.



Rubbish!

The fact is that the computer games industry is FAR more lucrative as a whole than it was in those days.

Simply, to all you whiners, most people take what they buy on face value. If they're not happy with what they buy, they won't buy it again. If 1C sell enough copies of their latest sim, then they're fine.

They HAVE sold enough copies of FB, and how many of their customers are forum obsessed whingers, do you think?

Not many, i'd say.

Not that I know what i'm talking about. But really, the sim is a success, there are massive developments promised and UBI is prepared to back them.

End of story (surely?)

PS, if you are really concerned about keeping this wonderful genre alive, buy everything you can afford! WW2 sims, Jet sims, hardware (particularly TrackIR, it rules!).

take care, and stop moaning.....

OJ

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 05:45 AM
go0dfella wrote:
- i can say with some confidence, no, alot of
- confidence, that the patch will be released on
- Thursday, August 7 at around 12:00PM

Um, what time zone, exactly? I have no idea what time zone Ubi's in, other than it's approximately 9 hours behind mine. If you're correct, and I hope so but think not, then the patch will be here when I get home from work at 1am.


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8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

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-Accept Follow-on Shifts!
-Take the Fight Upstairs!

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 06:28 AM
LMAO!!! Name a sim out there that "delivered what they promised" What like POS3??? I think Oleg&Crew have been more "open" than any other sim developer. You guys that cry about the patch are obviously playing the game or else you'd be crying about not being able to.
Is FB perfect?? maybe not, but at least they are working on the problems and I'm sure the patch will be forthcoming when its done. I dont expect them to drop everything and fix any problems I have as soon as I install the game. Some people are whining about some pretty stupid Sh!t. Me,I can't wait to see what part of the world I'll be flyin' in with Oleg's next Sim.( Hoping he doesn't say "screw it" after all the flak he reads here)
If its that bad go re-install CFS3 and wait for the FB patch at least that way you might realize how good you have it with IL-2~FB.
~S~ AR



~S~ AR
http://www.execulink.com/~jesten/ABSquadron.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:04 AM
I bought il2, and then bought FB, so i consider myself loyal... (i wont pay for crap games, i'll aquire them)
If a developer release's a good game i will GLADLY pay for it.

I have been following il2 since the early beginings (i dont post often but) and i can remember when FB was announced.
I can remember following the dev updates and awaiting it's release.
Now this is what some of you may not know, but i can CLEALRY remember Oleg stating that they are approaching the deadline with UBI and had been working 7 day weeks towards the end, trying to get the product finished in time.
Now OBVIOUSLY because of Ubi and there eagerness to get the product out on the market to fill their corporote coffers, they neglected to allow Oleg finish the product the way he wanted to.

Now on the otherside of the cards, i am kind of glad Ubi did push the release date as we all got to experience FB earlier. Yes the game is incomplete, but it is still a bloody good game, the best in its class. The patch will be coming, i personally dont mind waiting as i like the idea of a patch that address ALL known problems and not just bits and pieces.

After playing test08, i can tell you, the game is TOTALLY different. Going back to 1.0 was tragic (had to for online gaming) but it made me realise even more, how much work Oleg and team have put into this patch.

I've noticed alot of catty-ness (?) going on in these forums and all i can say is that there are alot of IMMATURE wankers frequenting the place. After reading statements made from some people, i KNOW that they are insecure and weak and in the real world would run away from a fight instead of standing there ground like a man.

I cant wait for the patch either... it will come when it comes..
Remember 'week starting 4th aug', were only half way through people, give em a chance..

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:10 AM
QUOTE: Kernow...
"Do any anti-patch-whiners have the balls to say, 'Yes, Ubi will stick to their word and produce the patch this week?'"

Out of all the patch whining that has been going on since Fb was released, I have to give Kernow the prize for the most stupid whine statement.

The balls? That is tooOOO stupid!

First of all, the "anti-patch-whiners" are smart enough to know, among other things, that software developement entails more than just listening to a bunch of people whining and demanding things on a forum message board.

Let's get to the main point, which seems to get over looked. OK.

FB is not so bad that it even deserves whining, of any kind, about anything.

I must say, I really envy many of you. Some here must really have it made. A nice, soft, cushy life... to even allow yourself to get upset about a patch for FB. The 'emotion' that some of you express on the forums concerning 'the patch' just makes you look pathetic. Fortunately, most people are too polite to point that out.

(If you do not 'have it made', then you really should save that 'emotional energy' for something more important.)

Myself, well, this is my very first post on the subject of the patch. Had I not read Kernow's 'silly challenge', I am sure I would have never posted. But, I guess seeing that completely stupid sentence got the best of me.

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:35 AM
http://www.mythologybullfinch.com/26pzd/Whiners.html

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:08 AM
The problem is not patch whiners and anti-patch whiners.
The problem is hotheaded people who take this so seriously other than say what they think and hope for the best.
And I've seen a lot of people in here make conclusions about others concerning their balls, masculinity, manhood and whatever based on what they think about the patch.
They are embarassing themselves writing stuff like that.
It's not patch whiners or anti-patch whiners that have a problem.
It's those trying to prove they are clever and manly through this thread like it has anything to do with anything.
Yes, please tell as how much money we are making.
And how many women we have.
And whether we like our lives or not.
Are we fat?, smoking?, having drinking problems?
Please tell us so we know.


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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:19 AM
That's a double-edged sword. The same way that Patch-Whining may alienate otherwise caring developers, whining about patch-whiners gives them license.

Everyone should just take a chill-pill. Have faith the patch will come out and don't jump down every poster's throat who happens to run out of patience and inquire about the expected due date. Let the moderators handle the more obscene whines and relax.

If waiting a couple of weeks isn't going to kill you, then not responding to a patch-whine sure as hell won't.

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:29 AM
The FW 190 , whining thread is a typical example, Oleg stated his case and said nothing would change.

Look what happened last I saw getting close to 900 posts in that thread, I noticed in the spanish interview Oleg did say that people still do not agree with his 190 view.

However nothing has changed.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 11:30 AM
RealKill wrote:
-
- Myself, well, this is my very first post on the
- subject of the patch. Had I not read Kernow's
- 'silly challenge', I am sure I would have never
- posted. But, I guess seeing that completely stupid
- sentence got the best of me.

Well RealKill, maybe I used the wrong word, although it's a common enough phrase - at least where I'm from - used to make a direct point. It's not to be taken literally; 'confidence' might have been a safer word, or the better known phrase, 'courage of your convictions.' Although even that can be taken too literally, as a challenge to your nerve, courage, manliness, whatever.

I see little point in posting either:

- 'Yea, I always knew Ubi would deliver - weren't the whiners stupid,' after the patch arrives this week. Or,

- 'Of course, I knew all along that it wouldn't be ready last week,' come Monday and still no patch.

The forums will be full of one or the other, that's another prediction I'm prepared to make /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I thought it more honest to give a straight forward opinion in advance rather than wait until after the event and say, 'I told you so.' I was just giving anyone who disagrees the chance to say so before they have the benefit of hindsight. So far there seems little confidence in the patch being delivered this week.

In the grand scheme of things of course it's all irrelevant. When, or even if, the patch arrives, the sun will still set in the west tonight and rise again in the east tomorrow morning. And <u>all</u> of us with access to these forums have it easy. This is indeed a trivial arguement, but in the context of an Il-2/FB forum the patch is an important issue.

Finally, no one who thinks Ubi are great (and, to be fair, compared to the rest of the software industry I guess they are average or above) has had the 'confidence' to say 'The patch will be here this week!' Probably beneath you to comment, I know. If it helps it needn't be a yes/no answer, 'I don't know' is a perfectly reasonable answer. I don't really have a clue either, but, as I said above, being wise after the event is easy. Besides, with my luck at predictions/betting/games of chance I half expect my bold statement to be proved wrong. The patch will come out today and then everyone's happy /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:43 PM
I'm afraid this thread took a bit of a different tack than I intended but if it let's all of you relieve some tension then have at it.

Whether you are a patchwhiner or anti-patchwhiner or whatever, the point is that Oleg himself will be less and less inclined to converse with us here like he used to. I believe this is the result of whining in general.

I mean think about it for a second: If you are at a party and go up to a group of people discussing, say, music in a civilized manner and start condescending that this band sucks and that band rulez, or start getting all aggressive with your opinion, chances are the group will drift. Either that or beat the snot out of you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There's nothing wrong having an opinion as we all do, right or wrong, but if I was Oleg, I'd be far less inclined to join a conversation where pointless banter or constantly repetitive whining is going on.

I've seen it happen with Epic Games/Digital Extremes. Back when they released Unreal (and before) you would have no problems talking to the developers on their forums. Now that the franchise is far more popular every word they say is analyzed to the point of nausea. They have to be very careful what they say.

Anyway, I'm just making an observation. You guys can argue amongst yourselves the right or wrong of it.



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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:56 PM
PriK wrote:
-
- What I'm talking about is that the more whining
- about delays will end up making them just not want
- to bother giving us dates at all and end up doing
- what ID does. They will simply not want to put
- themselves out with anything more than a general
- idea of release dates.



Well, thats what they do.. They tell us dates and a month later its released...Dont give a date and not release within that time period.. Lo-mac a big example of that(release of the game)... Its been the case with UBI lately and I can see why whinning is a factor...I realize the product has to be right to release.. I think the release was held back cause we found alot more bugs the beta testers did not detect..Thats another thing, "why not release the beta to more ppl"... the bugs just might be solved alot faster and result in the patch being release on time... The <u>FINAL</u> patch that is...

Just my thoughts

WOOD



Message Edited on 08/07/0309:57AM by The_Wood

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 03:54 PM
PriK wrote:

- ... the point is that Oleg himself will be
- less and less inclined to converse with us here like
- he used to. I believe this is the result of whining
- in general.
-

Well PriK, you might be right. But if FB worked properly, as I expect Oleg & Co want it to, then there would be no whining of any sort (hmmm, maybe the inevitable luft-whining, but that's all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ). Ubi etc scored a bit of an own goal by releasing the game far too early, IMO.

Plenty of people say, 'What's yer problem, FB's great.' Well yes, it does look good, but when you compare it to the original (how many who think FB is great have IL-2? That may or may not be significant) you have to conclude it's the same game with a few new flyable planes and a list of new bugs as long as your arm. Releasing FB killed off IL-2 prematurely and needlessly. You might say that FB beats the opposition, but isn't IL-2 still far superior to any other product out there? IL-2 was, and is, a great game; what's more, it actually worked properly and players were happy with it, by and large. If FB hadn't been released there would perhaps be some 'FB now whining,' but I really don't think it would be as bad as the anticipation for the patch, because the 'in use' product (IL-2) would still be working well. (I certainly don't recall the same great demand for FB back in Jan, as there is for the patch now - but perhaps I'm wrong)

They couldn't have produced a great game like IL-2 if they were idiots. So they must have known FB was flawed and not really ready for release. But somewhere in the Ubi/IL-2 set-up it was decided to press on regardless. Surely it would have been better to release FB about now, when it would presumably have been fully ready? It's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight, but I really think it was pretty obvious all along.

Perhaps 'The consequences of patch-whining' are as you say and they're feeling 'wounded' over at Ubi. However, I can't help feeling it was a self inflicted wound.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 05:33 PM
Kernow wrote:
-
- PriK wrote:
-
-
- Well PriK, you might be right. But if FB worked
- properly, as I expect Oleg & Co want it to, then
- there would be no whining of any sort (hmmm, maybe
- the inevitable luft-whining, but that's all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ). Ubi etc scored a bit of an
- own goal by releasing the game far too early, IMO.
-
- Plenty of people say, 'What's yer problem, FB's
- great.' Well yes, it does look good, but when you
- compare it to the original (how many who think FB is
- great have IL-2? That may or may not be
- significant) you have to conclude it's the same game
- with a few new flyable planes and a list of new bugs
- as long as your arm. Releasing FB killed off IL-2
- prematurely and needlessly. You might say that FB
- beats the opposition, but isn't IL-2 still far
- superior to any other product out there? IL-2 was,
- and is, a great game; what's more, it actually
- worked properly and players were happy with it, by
- and large. If FB hadn't been released there would
- perhaps be some 'FB now whining,' but I really don't
- think it would be as bad as the anticipation for the
- patch, because the 'in use' product (IL-2) would
- still be working well. (I certainly don't recall
- the same great demand for FB back in Jan, as there
- is for the patch now - but perhaps I'm wrong)
-
- They couldn't have produced a great game like IL-2
- if they were idiots. So they must have known FB was
- flawed and not really ready for release. But
- somewhere in the Ubi/IL-2 set-up it was decided to
- press on regardless. Surely it would have been
- better to release FB about now, when it would
- presumably have been fully ready? It's easy to say
- with the benefit of hindsight, but I really think it
- was pretty obvious all along.
-
- Perhaps 'The consequences of patch-whining' are as
- you say and they're feeling 'wounded' over at Ubi.
- However, I can't help feeling it was a self
- inflicted wound.
-
-

Well, I can't argue whether they knew they were releasing a more "buggy" product than they wished to or not, and you might well be right. However, I have to disagree that FB is merely IL2 with "a few new planes" since there were numerous changes to the fidelity of FB's flight modeling, damage modelling, addition of the DCG. In essence, a whole new game under the hood so to speak.

I think the "bugs" are in the tuning mostly, which leads me to believe FB was a little rushed but it's really subjective. Personally, I'm still having a great time with FB the way it is but am dying to have everything as accurate as possible so I don't have to get used to the planes' relative performances again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with some of the patchwhiners' arguments, only the way they are presented here. Hopefully Oleg will not be deterred by the vocal few and be open to mature discussion and debate on this fine product after the patch.

I guess we'll see.




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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 06:22 PM
-actually...i think FB was initially slated to be an actual "add-on" product for iL2, but after oleg and his crew "went nuts" (so to speak) on creating FB, it was later decided to make it a whole new program by UBI. This would account for the numerous little glitches that are rampant in the game. and why it released kinda "all of a sudden". I think the producers had a timetable for lock-on already in mind WITH an "add-on" for iL2. But FB turned out to be way more than they anticipated, so they turned the whole thing into a whole stand alone product and shipped it as soon as possible to meet other coding deadlines. Now with Oleg and his family working hard on lock-on, FB as become a secondary consideration, which is why its been so long in the coming (the patch that is).
-IMHO should FB have shipped?...from a bussiness stand point yes! Gotta put copper in the coiffers. From a consumer stand point..No! If you promise something and offer it in a consumer market it should perform as stated. A lot of you as consumers are corect in demanding that this product be "repaired" so that it will operate in the manner it was initially meant to. Thats the right of every consumer. You pay for a product or service, you like to have what was promised, and its ok to seek reparations.
-In the end, whats been done is done. We have to wait patiently for the patch. The only way producers (ubi soft) will become accountable to the consumers, is if retailers (best buy etc) start to enforce a policy of returning products to the manufacturers. So if say 500 pepole are unhappy with product and want to return for money back, then that charge back goes directly to producers. This obviously won't happen for a number of reasons (piracy to name one, plus the fact that there are so many syst configs, someone will always have one prob or another..drivers etc..). But if it did, then absolutely you'd see products shipped only when they are ready.
-So really to sum up....there are a number of factors prevalant in any situation, and this one is no different. In todays day and age..sad to say, but we take our chances with software when we buy it.
-to oleg and his crew....if the patch takes this long, then it takes this long..game still playable (cept for that p40 thing..nasty). If hurrying the patch means taking time away from lock-on, then finish lock-on first, then work on patch. No sense having more buggy programs than needed. To the community, may as well pull up a chair...flame more if ya want, but none of it will have any affect.
thnks for listening.
-the author does not assume and responsisbilty or liability for anything issued from his...fingers..and accepts no wrongdoing. all comments are soley specualtion. any unauthorized rebroadcasting in any form is strictly prohibated unless soley authorized by said author.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:07 PM
Kernow wrote:
-
But if FB worked
- properly, as I expect Oleg & Co want it to, then
- there would be no whining of any sort (hmmm, maybe
- the inevitable luft-whining, but that's all)

It's a question of deliverables.

In fact, FB does work properly, and does all of the things it promises to do in the deliverables - it states that it is a piece of software that:

1) Runs on a specified range of computers, but best within recommendeds or better. There may be a stutter here and there within some configurations, but CTD or complete crash-and-reboots are so rare as to bring to question individual system settings rather than to the software itself.

2) Simulates aircraft flight and gunnery in a realistic manner. Neither IL-2 nor FB ever advertised to be a perfect simulation of aircraft flight and gunnery, only to be a realistic simulation of that. Certainly, by any standard, it does so. Can it be improved on? Absolutely - that's the point and aim of the patch - improvement.

When the debate is over half a second in roll or less than 50 KPH max speed at sea level, you can't say that the sim isn't realistic - you can only debate how far it is from reality. Last time I checked, simulation and approximation were hand and glove.

3) Provides a dynamic campaign where your actions determine the success of your side within historical limits. Done. Again, it's not perfect - some of the AI route plotting leaves much to be desired. But the truth is that it does exactly what it advertises.

4) Allows for multiplay online both in DogFight and Cooperative mode. Done. Is it perfect? No, it's not, so it's being optimized. Certainly, though, they could leave it alone and simply say "it meets the requirements as advertized, please read the note with it that states that quality is dependant on a number of factors, such as the individual's hardware, settings, and Internet connection."

5) Allows players to fly any of over 80 aircraft in multiple positions when available with realistic cockpits. Done. Can it be improved? Yes. But, again, they have met the deliverable, and so you can't say they breached their contract.

In the end, it's not a "patch" so much as an upgrade and refinement to a product that already works to the specifications promised by the producer for free as a measure of goodwill and the desire for continued customer purchases of future products.

So I'll respectfully disagree with anyone who says FB "doesn't work" or is "defective." It does everything it promises at a reasonable quality for the price given.

The alternative, of course, is to simply purchase another product of higher quality, preferably at a lesser cost, and be done with it.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:50 PM
BA_Dart wrote:
-
- Kernow wrote:
--
- But if FB worked
-
-- properly, as I expect Oleg & Co want it to, then
-- there would be no whining of any sort (hmmm, maybe
-- the inevitable luft-whining, but that's all)
-
- It's a question of deliverables.
-
- In fact, FB does work properly, and does all of the
- things it promises to do in the deliverables - it
- states that it is a piece of software that:
-
- 1) Runs on a specified range of computers, but best
- within recommendeds or better. There may be a
- stutter here and there within some configurations,
- but CTD or complete crash-and-reboots are so rare as
- to bring to question individual system settings
- rather than to the software itself.
-
- 2) Simulates aircraft flight and gunnery in a
- realistic manner. Neither IL-2 nor FB ever
- advertised to be a perfect simulation of aircraft
- flight and gunnery, only to be a realistic
- simulation of that. Certainly, by any standard, it
- does so. Can it be improved on? Absolutely -
- that's the point and aim of the patch - improvement.
-
-
-
- When the debate is over half a second in roll or
- less than 50 KPH max speed at sea level, you can't
- say that the sim isn't realistic - you can only
- debate how far it is from reality. Last time I
- checked, simulation and approximation were hand and
- glove.
-
- 3) Provides a dynamic campaign where your actions
- determine the success of your side within historical
- limits. Done. Again, it's not perfect - some of
- the AI route plotting leaves much to be desired.
- But the truth is that it does exactly what it
- advertises.
-
- 4) Allows for multiplay online both in DogFight and
- Cooperative mode. Done. Is it perfect? No, it's
- not, so it's being optimized. Certainly, though,
- they could leave it alone and simply say "it meets
- the requirements as advertized, please read the note
- with it that states that quality is dependant on a
- number of factors, such as the individual's
- hardware, settings, and Internet connection."
-
- 5) Allows players to fly any of over 80 aircraft in
- multiple positions when available with realistic
- cockpits. Done. Can it be improved? Yes. But,
- again, they have met the deliverable, and so you
- can't say they breached their contract.
-
- In the end, it's not a "patch" so much as an upgrade
- and refinement to a product that already works to
- the specifications promised by the producer for free
- as a measure of goodwill and the desire for
- continued customer purchases of future products.
-
- So I'll respectfully disagree with anyone who says
- FB "doesn't work" or is "defective." It does
- everything it promises at a reasonable quality for
- the price given.
-
- The alternative, of course, is to simply purchase
- another product of higher quality, preferably at a
- lesser cost, and be done with it.
-
-


Very well put. I was going to make the same points but didn't want to expend the mental energy and time to do so. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif






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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:04 AM
Well the most logic thing was why not release several smaller patches instead of waiting ages for one really huge one?

Why not release a patch with the most urgent fixes as soon as possible? I rather have 3 small patches than 1 big patch including all 3 since then I have to wait several months longer for the first and second patch.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:07 AM
I don't care when the patch is supposed to come out. I just want to that 1C or UBI keeps its promises about the release. Wasn't this patch coming out in may or something? hell, it is august now and they still keep promising us new dates!


If they say it will come in December, fine. But pls keep your promise!

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:14 AM
They didn`t promise anything.Plans can always change,you know.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 12:31 PM
BA_Dart wrote:
-
- So I'll respectfully disagree with anyone who says
- FB "doesn't work" or is "defective." It does
- everything it promises at a reasonable quality for
- the price given.

Ok, well made point. However, on my box it says, "The most accurate historical flight simulation of all time with aircraft, cockpit and flight models faithful to historical data" Most accurate of all time can be debated, certainly much is far better than you can find anywhere else. But when P-47s can't outdive much, when 190s on WEP get caught in a long dive by Hurri IIs and Ratas can keep up with them in a power dive, we're not talking the odd kph, we're talking of gross errors. Then there's the question of hi alt performance, where many Soviet types, optimized for low alt, don't seem to suffer at all. The DM is another area where things don't feel right. I do see why you can disagree about the game being 'broken;' much works excellently, but for me the flaws are big enough to make the latter part of the above claim look like advertizing BS. However, I don't doubt that was their honest aim, neither do I doubt the patch will largely correct matters.

Much depends on what you fly. Fly fighters and avoid the 190 and you'll probably not notice too much is wrong. Some people even love the 190s as they are. If you fly bombers you might notice more bugs. Should you only fly offline, then the AI behaviour will be annoying, but the game will probably deliver what the box says. But go online and try to drop aimed bombs from the He-111 and you'll be very disappointed. Would you find it acceptable if you could not aim the guns on your fighter? Then there are various loadouts for the IL-2 (some of the cluster type munitions) which <u>already worked fine in IL-2</u>, but which are useless in FB. Admittedly they are in the bug category and not the 'totally busted' category, but the fact that they used to work fine makes it doubly annoying.

Had FB been released directly as a brand new game, then I might agree that it wasn't 'faulty;' however, it was released on the back of IL-2, which set new standards. Judged by those standards, and with all due respect for other opinions, I stick by my view that the game is flawed enough for the purchaser to feel fully justified in expecting a patch.

Anyway, I'm out of here for a week or so and only really came on to offer the promised apology in advance of the patch actually being delivered during my absence in the closing days of the 'week of 4 Aug.' However, I see Cartrix has saved me from the need to do that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Whether I'm 'sooooo stupid' or not, I could see that coming and, frankly, even those who disagreed with me, deep down, appear to have felt the same lack of confidence in Ubi.

Finally, that was great news from Cartrix /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif and, this time, I'm sure they'll deliver what we've all been waiting for. But, let's be honest, IMO it would have been perfectly possible to have made that announcement at the start of this week and saved a whole lot of bad feeling. Wouldn't it?

Well, seems like I'll now be the last person to get the patch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif