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View Full Version : A serious bug in FW190 A5 ordnance release modeling



arrow80
11-26-2004, 11:21 AM
Here are first results of my very simple tests:
1. Take ordnance of 1xSC-500
With this bomb maximum ground level speed is about 460 km/h. After you release the bomb you would expect to rapidly increase your speed, but it remains still 460 km/h and looks like you would have the weight of the bomb still strapped on. Well you may think that it is the cause of the hardpoint, but no as we come to the second

2. Take 1xSC 500 and 4x50 ordnance
with it you get your maximum speed of about 430-440 km/h at ground, after you drop it all, what happens, nothing...your speed remains about the same.

3. Take 2xaditional droptanks
with them your ground speed is about 490 km/h, after droping those it remains just about the same.

Conclussion: After droping your ordnance you would expect a great performance increase (degraded a bit by hardpoint), but it looks like the weight remains on after droping it. I don't know if it applies also to other planes, but these are my findings regarding the A5

Sig.Hirsch
11-26-2004, 12:40 PM
are you sure ??
didn't have the time to test it , that's a serious bug if it's true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Sig.Hirsch
11-26-2004, 12:47 PM
daemn... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

it's true , in 3.01 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i've just tested it , it's a huge bug : FW-190 A5 is buggy after releasing the bomb , it flies like it still had it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Please Oleg if you see this post , try to fix it in the next Official patch
Thank you very much .

arrow80
11-26-2004, 02:08 PM
well I am at least glad that it isn't just mine 3.01...so hopefully oleg, or someone shall read this (and FW drivers of course too)

Hunde_3.JG51
11-26-2004, 02:31 PM
Speed tests at SL with SC-500 loaded and outter cannons deleted:

190A-4:

512km/h with bomb
530 after (15+ hit from top speed)

190A-5 and A-6:

514km/h with bomb
528 after (44+ km/h hit from top speed)

FW-190A5 and A-6 with outter cannons deleted option with bomb-rack:

560km (10-15km/h top speed hit).


*Note all planes under Oleg's test conditions are 5-10 km/h faster than object viewer speeds. Some planes more like P-39N is almost 15km/h faster.

So the problem is not just when it is released. The A-5 and A-6 are not any faster than the A-4 at SL with boost when carrying bomb, and when it is released it is actually slower than A-4 after release.

I'll e-mail the big guy.

arrow80
11-26-2004, 02:57 PM
Hunde thanks, hopefully this shall get sorted out very soon

NorrisMcWhirter
11-26-2004, 02:57 PM
bump. yep, i got the same.

Cheers,
Norris

Hunde_3.JG51
11-26-2004, 03:08 PM
Test results and track sent.

No problem Arrow, glad to help http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Sig.Hirsch
11-26-2004, 04:00 PM
Thx Hunde , that's a major bug , i hope 1C Maddox will fix it soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 05:39 PM
Yes.. Antons lost A LOT of speed (in any condition) in 3.01 patch.. you can´t even keep it over 530 km/h)

It seems to have a chute after him while diving. It seems that the "loosing speed with lower power settings and high pith" also got loosing speed anyway in pour antons.


Currently antons are UNPLAYBLE - 40km/h loss is something we cannot live with.

VF-29_Sandman
11-26-2004, 05:46 PM
are u guys usin manual or automatic pitch. that sounds very strange to have that much of speed loss after releasing heavy iron http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 05:47 PM
Just tested in 3.02.. same thing.. incredble drag (associated wiht the worst auto stalling plane FW have ever been)


How does this kind of thing passes by? Wiht the most important plane in game? :P For me.. not playing IL2 until this bug is corrected (since no other plane worths flying)

KGr.HH-Sunburst
11-26-2004, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
Just tested in 3.02.. same thing.. incredble drag (associated wiht the worst auto stalling plane FW have ever been)


How does this kind of thing passes by? Wiht the most important plane in game? :P For me.. not playing IL2 until this bug is corrected (since no other plane worths flying) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh no man not my plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
glad the Dora doesnt have this problem

hope Oleg fix this with the next patch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
(Jabo)FW190s are the most important planes in my squad WE CANT LIVE WITHOUT THEM lol oh well ill be patience http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 06:03 PM
hope they correct this for the non beta replacement for the 3.02.. I would not be able to wait a full month or so for this.


(no Oleg.. we are not over reactinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif you know how us FW fans are about our dear bird)

Juste give us 3.0 fw back and we will disapear without making any sound .....

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 06:14 PM
Surprise surprise!! The 190D Dore also got the same problem.



NO FW will pass 530 km/h in level flight!!! Hunde sicne you send the bug report you could add them that info.

VF-29_Sandman
11-26-2004, 06:21 PM
appears to be not just the a-5's that's affected. all the a-series is. doesnt get more than about 20-30 knts speed in a dive with the bombs, and definately appears that the bombs are still attached after release as they simply have no extra speed. on the other hand, the 47-d27 with 50% fuel and 3 bombs attached will increase speed in a banking co-ordinated turn, and will seriously haul azz in the bomb dive and egress from the target area. not sure if 190's had just about as powerful engine as a jug, or could it be i'm not using the proper ata on the 190...not my usual plane of choice for a ground pound operation. could it be ata dependent? from what i detect, no change.

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 06:25 PM
Is nothing that you are doing wrong. ALL FW lost a LOT of speed. like if a parachute was attached to it. They lost acceleration and NONE of them not even the mighty dora can pass 530 SL anymore. It was supposed to reach 600!!!! (was reaching that in 3.0, 2.04 2.01 2.0 )


Also FW seems to have recovered the vicous stall tyhey had in 2.0.. it seems lots of things are messed up in FW.

VF-29_Sandman
11-26-2004, 06:33 PM
at least they did rectify the gear problem on the stuka and the val, tho the 250 kg bomb on the val appears to have a blast radius of a 2000 pounder. not a fw driver, but i can see u guys' point. they were known to be extremely fast, and right now, it almost looks like a hurricane would catch u http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Hunde_3.JG51
11-26-2004, 06:52 PM
Oldman, with sea-level tests I got 595km/h for A-9 and 585km/h for A-8. Radiator closed, auto-pitch, boost with max throttle. Same as before. Manual 100& pitch will add about 5-8km/h but fast overheat. I also got A-5 (or A-6?) without outter cannons and bomb rack added up to 560km/h. This on Crimea map at noon over water.

I'm using old .exe btw as I get the same frame-rates with less stutter.

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 06:54 PM
Well I am testing at 3.02 and no way I pass 530 without a dive!! That on crimeia. Something is very weird here.

3.JG51_BigBear
11-26-2004, 06:56 PM
Why can't they just leave it alone? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 07:08 PM
Just making some more tests while reinstalling 3.0 in other computer to compare.


A9 can reach 550.. but only a VERY long time(just before overheat message)

A8 can keep 540 after reaching it by pointing nose down. But loosing speed it too much fast. Much faster than it was.

ALL FW hera bahave exactly same in default load as with 500 kg load (even the ones with no bomb racks)


I used to have no problems reaching 570 km/h in A5 and 580 in A8.


It seems however that is not an ALWAYS repeatable bug. I restart the game here and reached 570 in A5.. then messed around a little bit in loadouts and when tried again in default.. got the same 530 km/h limit back.


If anyone finds out what is the 100% procedure for repating this bug.. please post it.

Sig.Hirsch
11-26-2004, 07:25 PM
Yea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
they're too much porked now with that bug , it's sad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 07:38 PM
Not as bad as I tought. Since it sometimes do not appear. So think is really related to some loadout issue. Just got 580 km/h A8 now.. but when changed to dora empty got 540.... than wen to a sair.. than back to Dora and got correct speed; wierd weird weird

Willey
11-26-2004, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Speed tests at SL with SC-500 loaded and outter cannons deleted:

190A-4:

512km/h with bomb
530 after (15+ hit from top speed)

190A-5 and A-6:

514km/h with bomb
528 after (44+ km/h hit from top speed)

FW-190A5 and A-6 with outter cannons deleted option with bomb-rack:

560km (10-15km/h top speed hit).


*Note all planes under Oleg's test conditions are 5-10 km/h faster than object viewer speeds. Some planes more like P-39N is almost 15km/h faster.

So the problem is not just when it is released. The A-5 and A-6 are not any faster than the A-4 at SL with boost when carrying bomb, and when it is released it is actually slower than A-4 after release.

I'll e-mail the big guy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a bug with the U3 and U8 versions. Take the R1: SC-500 and you won't have the speed hit.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-26-2004, 07:51 PM
Just did more tests and got proper speeds. I didn't mess around with loadouts though, everything at default.

While testing I noticed that the La-5 and La-5FN (didn't test others) never overheat about seemingly 4,000m or so. If I start up high it never overheats, if I start down low and reach overheat I just climb, cool down engine and then ramp it up to full throttle and boost with no overheat.

It also still bothers me that at medium to high most altitudes most planes go 5-10km/h over their max speed while the 190A struggles to reach it. You can get 5-10km/h or so past with manual pitch but overheat is very fast. The La-5FN for example can go max speed forever at 6,000 (about 642km/h), while the FW-190A-6 can go 100% with boost without overheat and get to about 640/kmh), above that you get overheat. So essentially the FW-190A-6 has to overheat itself just to gain seperation from La-5FN, or cut its speed by 30km/h to match what La-5FN can do forever. I believe the same is true of 190A-4 and La-5 '42. Sorry, but from what I have read this seems silly. Not to mention La's generally use prototype numbers in-game. Sorry for rant, just doesn't seem right.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-26-2004, 09:23 PM
Correct Willey, thanks for the heads up.

arrow80
11-27-2004, 01:05 AM
yes, in general the behaviour is very strange in A FW series, I wasn't able to get above 510 in A8 at sea level, without boost 100% throttle and auto pitch. Before I used to get 540-550-560 without problems even in A4...something weird is going on herehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

arrow80
11-27-2004, 01:10 AM
maybe it has something to do with the new prop drag modeling..

OldMan____
11-27-2004, 02:42 AM
Well, don´t know what it is.. but it is not VERY simple. The feel in flight and dicves is that some drag was added. maybe is related to that propeler drag thing and the strange propeler governor in FW190

Copperhead310th
11-27-2004, 02:46 AM
booo hooo my 190 is no longer the uber plane it once was.

come on guys give it a freakin rest already.
you've beaten this 190 horse to death now.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-27-2004, 03:13 AM
Copper, your usual contribution, which is nothing. Actually, that comment coming from you means nothing. There is a legitimate bug which has been identified, so please STFU.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-27-2004, 03:25 AM
Hi,

Copper is just pleased because his beloved is now so overmodelled that he can actually shoot something down with it.

Cheers,
Norris

JG53Harti
11-27-2004, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
booo hooo my 190 is no longer the uber plane it once was.

come on guys give it a freakin rest already.
you've beaten this 190 horse to death now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


sensless comment Kupferkopf

Sig.Hirsch
11-27-2004, 04:26 AM
Is Oleg aware of those huge bugs of FW-190 speed (apart from the SC500 bug ) ?
An answer from him would have been welcome
If so does someone know when is the next patch ??

All campaigns involving Fw-190 are canceled , this plane is unflyable now , just want to know when we'll be able to fly it again
thx for answer

OldMan____
11-27-2004, 04:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
booo hooo my 190 is no longer the uber plane it once was.

come on guys give it a freakin rest already.
you've beaten this 190 horse to death now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what? Anton Uber?

LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LL!!!!!

You must be a dammit very bad pilot to generate such amount of trash with your keyboard.

Y

mortoma
11-27-2004, 08:22 AM
Yes, I noticed the FWs keeping the weight of the bombs after dropping a long time ago. Wrote Oleg about it, no response.

mortoma
11-27-2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
booo hooo my 190 is no longer the uber plane it once was.

come on guys give it a freakin rest already.
you've beaten this 190 horse to death now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Seems to me they are discussing legitimate bugs or possible bugs, and being mature about it. Your posts seems to come from a 6 year old that can write at a 9 year old level.

JG77Von_Hess
11-27-2004, 10:02 AM
Mortoma I can verify this:

Yes, I noticed the FWs keeping the weight of the bombs after dropping a long time ago. Wrote Oleg about it, no response.

And a few other similar things w drop tanks etc.

Perhaps some of it got fixed, i gave up on testing it.

Regards.

VH.

p1ngu666
11-27-2004, 10:43 AM
tried dora(both) sl speeds last nite (for a friend) and i got 590-606ish with boost without trouble.

shame about the bomb thing tho, i likes me jabo..
f8 affected?

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
11-27-2004, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
tried dora(both) sl speeds last nite (for a friend) and i got 590-606ish with boost without trouble.

shame about the bomb thing tho, i likes me jabo..
f8 affected? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

does anyone know if oleg would alow some Fighter-Bomber variant of the D9 ?

Sig.Hirsch
11-27-2004, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaBo_HH-BlackSheep:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
tried dora(both) sl speeds last nite (for a friend) and i got 590-606ish with boost without trouble.

shame about the bomb thing tho, i likes me jabo..
f8 affected? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

does anyone know if oleg would alow some Fighter-Bomber variant of the D9 ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't remember anything like that blacksheep , but now the situation is serious as FW-190 A's are simply unflyable in Jabo missions , i hope they'll fix this kind of major bugs soon , before annoucing more planes

Aaron_GT
11-27-2004, 11:32 AM
Obviously what we need to fix this problem is an F4U-4 :-)

NorrisMcWhirter
11-27-2004, 11:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Obviously what we need to fix this problem is an F4U-4 :-) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lordy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris

H4wkw1nd
11-27-2004, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Obviously what we need to fix this problem is an F4U-4 :-) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Shhhhh. You-know-who may hear you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

arrow80
11-29-2004, 10:26 AM
Hunde: any news on this topic are more than just welcome (if you get some response from oleg)

arrow80
11-30-2004, 04:08 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif bump! this has to be fixed

BBB_Hyperion
11-30-2004, 04:25 AM
Need some Data on Wing Carriers Performance effect. I assume etc 501 with 8/9 km/h speed loss , i need now data for wing carrier . Not speed loss of bombs that i have but speed loss of this carrier.

arrow80
11-30-2004, 04:39 AM
well: it is good to do some tests with A4 with carriers and compare it to A5 with carriers...I'll do it as soon as I get home.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-30-2004, 06:45 AM
"We will check it later."

Just got e-mail back. I gave good description.

Also, no need to check with A-4, already did it along with FW-190A-5 and A-6 with outter cannons removed and bomb rack. Same speed (560km/h) with guns removed as when "R" variant drops SC-500. "U" variant dropping SC-500 only gets to 525-530km/h.

Results (with SC-500 "U"):

190A-4:

512km/h with bomb
530 after (15+ hit from top speed)

190A-5 and A-6:

514km/h with bomb
528 after (44+ km/h hit from top speed)

FW-190A5 and A-6 with outter cannons deleted option with bomb-rack:

560km (10-15km/h top speed hit).

Hunde_3.JG51
11-30-2004, 06:47 AM
Also, hopefully I will here something soon but if I don't I would recommend a very short e-mail to Oleg confirming A-5 and A-6 "U" variant loadout speed bug. He is very busy so I'll let you know if I hear anything.

faustnik
11-30-2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
booo hooo my 190 is no longer the uber plane it once was.

come on guys give it a freakin rest already.
you've beaten this 190 horse to death now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey ivan & Bearcat,

How long do we have have to put up with posts like this in serious threads?

I understand why the guy does it, he a frustrated online and lashes out in the only place he can. What I don't understand is why you mods put up with it?

JG5_UnKle
11-30-2004, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
booo hooo my 190 is no longer the uber plane it once was.

come on guys give it a freakin rest already.
you've beaten this 190 horse to death now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to request a new forum feature, could we have a "Moron Filter" (tm) that we can just switch on and have it filter out certain posters comments http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know, I know.... self discipline, don't read it blah blah blah - just kidding http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously though - is this just a PF v3.02 issue for sure, or has it been noticed in previous versions? I could have sworn some aircraft did this (maybe not just 190's) before....

Hunde_3.JG51
11-30-2004, 03:18 PM
Unkle, I think it started in FB/AEP/PF 3.00m. I didn't do much speed testing in PF, what I did do was at SL or with new planes like Hellcat, Corsair, etc. I think these 190 bugs have been there since 3.00m, I was just too busy playing with all of the new toys to notice.

Stachl
11-30-2004, 05:13 PM
Hi Hunde,

Hey, since you seem to have good relations with Oleg, could you do the same test for the 109 G2, G6, etc. and send it in too. This problem has been with the 109 for a couple of years. You find these problems rather easily when you fly in the Forgotten Skies war where we have been severely hampered by the 109's thirsty engine for a long time. Not only is the speed affected in the 109, but so too is the manuverability.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-30-2004, 08:04 PM
Stachl, what specifically is the problem? Top speed at specific altitude? Problem when bomb loadouts are carried and then released? I would need more details about what you think is wrong or has changed. And if you think something was always wrong then data, references, etc. are needed.

JG5_UnKle
12-01-2004, 06:02 AM
I was thinking along the lines of Stachl's post, maybe I will unearth FB 2.04 and take a look.

I don't have FB+AEP+PF patchewd at V3.00 any more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif so I can't easily test but I will see if my squad mates can come up with anything - will report back later.....

Stachl
12-01-2004, 06:29 PM
Yes Hunde, in 3.01 I tested a G2 with and without a drop tank, 100% fuel, at 1,000 meters on the Smolensk map. I got the thing going as fast as it would go in level flight and then released the drop tank. I wasn't really interested in testing the top speed of the G2, only the difference in speed between the clean and drop tank equipped G2 and also to see if after dropping the tank there was a speed increase, as there should be. I only used the cockpit instruments, but it appeared as though the G2 w/drop tank was about 20 kph slower than the clean version, give or take. Results were that I saw no difference in the speed after dropping the tank. You're stuck with the reduced performance even after you've dropped. Hope that makes sense. I'll bet that JG5_UnKle gets the same result in 2.04 as this has been a problem for some time. Thanks again.

TheGozr
12-02-2004, 09:06 PM
Got the same feeling in different planes i felt to have my rockets and bombs after dropping them.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

arrow80
12-08-2004, 11:04 AM
hunde: any news here?

HQ1
12-09-2004, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Just did more tests and got proper speeds. I didn't mess around with loadouts though, everything at default.

While testing I noticed that the La-5 and La-5FN (didn't test others) never overheat about seemingly 4,000m or so. If I start up high it never overheats, if I start down low and reach overheat I just climb, cool down engine and then ramp it up to full throttle and boost with no overheat.

It also still bothers me that at medium to high most altitudes most planes go 5-10km/h over their max speed while the 190A struggles to reach it. You can get 5-10km/h or so past with manual pitch but overheat is very fast. The La-5FN for example can go max speed forever at 6,000 (about 642km/h), while the FW-190A-6 can go 100% with boost without overheat and get to about 640/kmh), above that you get overheat. So essentially the FW-190A-6 has to overheat itself just to gain seperation from La-5FN, or cut its speed by 30km/h to match what La-5FN can do forever. I believe the same is true of 190A-4 and La-5 '42. Sorry, but from what I have read this seems silly. Not to mention La's generally use prototype numbers in-game. Sorry for rant, just doesn't seem right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,hunde I think you got the point.everytime I fly 190 online can never feel 190's decent speed advantage they should have at certain altitude .Ithink this is the biggest problem the 190s have now.have you got any response from Oleg about this?

Hunde_3.JG51
12-09-2004, 11:48 PM
Sorry, no news. I promised Oleg I wouldn't bother him anymore after asking all of those other questions. He never said anything, actually he was quite kind, I'm just trying to be respectful of his time.

If someone wants to put something together and send it to him that would be fine. As long as its only one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif. Still, my guess is that he knows about it as it is pretty obvious, but then you never know. Its up to you.

BBB_Hyperion
12-10-2004, 01:20 AM
I have some tracks recorded though you sent it already and have documents for speed loss of different armaments .

Maybe private topic to check up what you have already send .

arrow80
01-20-2005, 12:57 PM
seems to have been fixed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif