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ZG77_Nagual
06-24-2003, 03:51 PM
This Thread is dedicated to the P63 - a largely unsung plane that saw action with the vvs on both the EF and in the Pacific and, in all likelyhood, will kick some serious but.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
06-24-2003, 03:51 PM
This Thread is dedicated to the P63 - a largely unsung plane that saw action with the vvs on both the EF and in the Pacific and, in all likelyhood, will kick some serious but.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 05:19 PM
Right on! Kingcobras are dedicated badass planes. Too bad the USAAF didn't have a use for them, It's only possible role was ground attack, the P-51s had escort and fighting covered. I guess we weren't at a loss for P-47s.

----------------------------------------
Wow, I really look good on your six. Mind if I stay there?

Crabhart

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:05 PM
Kingcobra would sure be nice addition aswell as P-400 with 20mm cannon. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 12:11 AM
is there any difference in the external model and cockpit of the king cobra? If so what are they?

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 11:15 AM
I didn't come by any good drawings but these tell something:

"The XP-63 started with a completely redesigned and larger airframe, which shared little but the general layout and appearance with the P-39. Key points in common were the Allison V-12 engine mounted behind the cockpit, 37mm cannon in the nose and automotive style doors on each side of the pilot's compartment."

"other respects, the P-63 was a brand new design. There were no interchangeable parts and the Kingcobra was noticeably larger than the Airacobra. It had a laminar flow wing, a 2-stage, supercharged engine, new empennage design, and better visibility from the cockpit."

"P-63A's 1,325 horsepower V-1710-93 engine, which featured a second, auxiliary supercharger with an automatic hydraulic drive. All subsequent production P-63s had versions of this two-stage supercharger, but their performance never matched the Merlin-powered Mustang."

"With the fuselage occupied by the pilot, the mid-engine and its cooling system, plus the 37mm cannon and ammunition, the only space left for fuel was in the wings. With the same general layout, the P-63 suffered the same limitation, thus most P-63As held only 100 gallons of fuel, and early on pylons were added under the fuselage and later the wings for external fuel tanks or bombs."

"A total of 1,725 P-63As were built by Bell between October, 1943 and December of 1944. Most were armed with the 37mm cannon and two 0.50 caliber machine guns in the nose, plus two more 0.50 caliber guns in pods under the wings. Many could also carry two 500 pound bombs, while later production P-63As could also mount three air-to-ground rockets under each wing. Maximum loaded weight was 10,500 pounds and the top speed at 25,000 feet over 400 mph."



http://mujweb.atlas.cz/Veda/airwar/muzeum/usa/p63/clipart/f_03.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:11 PM
The numbers built can't be right. Russia received 2400 P-63's, and they didn't get them all. I believe 300-500 went to another country, but i'm not sure which one. France maybe?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/hartm1-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:12 PM
they saw action with the French Airforce over Indochine !



http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p63_17.html

Message Edited on 06/25/0303:15PM by JG53Frankyboy

ZG77_Nagual
06-25-2003, 04:33 PM
In another thread on 109 airodynamics stats from america's 100,000 indicate the '63 is the second best turning American fighter - next to the FM wildcat. Supposedly it also has one of the highest roll rates, excellent climb and high speed at low altitude. My guess is it will outperform the mustang in all areas at low altitude and be more on a par with aircraft like the la5fn/7 (thought not quite)and yak3. I think american data on both the p39 and p63 - while it may be more or less accurate as raw data, is usually shot through with opinions and conclusions that are based more on the fact that the planes were not used much - except in the begining of the war - p39s in the pacific - and that what reputations they do have were gained during very disadvantageous circumstances.
The P63 was outdone by aircraft with longer ranges - but I think it was in all probability one of the best dogfighters built during the war.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg


Message Edited on 06/25/0311:37AM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:56 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- The numbers built can't be right. Russia received
- 2400 P-63's, and they didn't get them all. I believe
- 300-500 went to another country, but i'm not sure
- which one. France maybe?


Like it stated those numbers were only P-63A-models built during that period. Whole production period was 1942-1946 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Here's total numbers from same source:

"More than 3,300 P-63s of all types were built, but more than 2,400 went to Russia and another 300 to the Free French Air Force. It is unlikely that any P-63s were used in combat operations by the USAAF."

Various sources state excact number of 3,303 being produced.

I ran into this statement too:
"The United States supplied 2,400 P-63s to the Soviets but by the time they arrived and front-line units were ready to take them into combat, the war in Europe was over. Not a single P-63 flew against the Germans. Only 51 had reached operational status in the Soviet Air Force by VE Day, and these were based near Moscow. Soviet Kingcobra pilots did see combat in the Pacific during the last days of war. Their only aerial victory occurred on August 15, 1945, against a Japanese fighter."

Funny.. I thought those were used more extensively, atleast against ground targets.. nevertheless I'd like to see it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


P.S: here might be more exact numbers per version produced:
http://www.uswarplanes.net/p39p63.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 06:12 PM
Probably the same accuate information that said P-39's were used for nothing but tank busting./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/hartm1-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 10:15 PM
For you, P-63 fans!

At the end of the war to achieve more complete and objective results of the tests of newest Yakovlev planes, Russians were conducting something they called "comparison tests" - mock combat with exchange of the pilots between aircrafts.
Planes participating in trials were:
1. Yak-3 with VK107A
2. Yak-9P
3. Yak-9U
4. Spitfire IX
5. P-63C-1

I only found bits of info in the "YAK fighters of WW2 period" by A.T. Stepanets ISBN 5-217-01192-0.

Was found that P-63C-1 had advantage over Yak-9P in horizontal maneuver and was capable to get in firing position (200-300m) after five turns. In vertical maneuver at altitude 2000-3000m Yak-9P had considerable advantage over P-63C-1 and was domination fights after first combat turn. Yak was better while diving - could catch or escape from P-63 in a dive.

Flight characteristics of Yak3 with VK-107A engine were practically identical to Yak-9U. It also had advantage in vertical maneuver over P-63 but was inferior to Spitfire IX (Spit flying in five minute emergency power regime)

At altitude of 7500m P-63 was faster then Spitfire Mk.IX and La-7.

Initially P-63 had structural and directional stability problems solved by reinforcement of the tail and introduction of the veneral fin. Reinforcement kits were retrofitted on all previously delivered to Russia planes. This is the reason for P-63 not being used in combat. Also P-63 was very demanding and unforgiving airplane to fly, but still easier then P-39.




AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 10:20 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Probably the same accuate information that said
- P-39's were used for nothing but tank busting.


From an olllld message posted by Oleg at Simhq:

Now I have one more confirmation that P-63 used against Germans.
I had a call to one aviation historical author - main editor of Russian magazine "History of Aviation" and got one more interesting fact.

Recalls of pilot Devitaev in his book "the flight to sun":

Devitaev was shot down on P-63C in 1944. then was captured by Germans on the ground. Then he was a prisoner in the special camp on the island Usi-Dom (or something sounding like this name, I don't know correct name in German). He was working there in the camp and he saw He-111 taking off and landing..... when was possible by the case he escaped from the island on that He-111 with underwing rack with attached V-1 !!!

The last fact also has a lot of confirmations in Russian technical and historical docs.

But the main idea I try to present here is that many modern authors are wrong that P-63 wasn't present on German front...
Too many facts I found that it is wrong, but correct that P-63 used against Germany (not only against Japan)

The other confirmation from my friend (I have permission to use this info :
============================================
My wife is from Germany. Her uncle was a young Luftwaffe Leutnant in charge of an anti-aircraft battery during the war. When we visited Germany this past autumn (he now lives in M?hlheim a. d. Ruhr), he and I talked about some of his war experiences. He told me that in late 1944 outside of K?nigsberg (Kaliningrad), his unit was attacked by a flight of P-63s at low level. When I asked him how he knew for certain that these were P-63s and not P-39s or some other type of aircraft, he said:

"Our unit was highly skilled and trained in aircraft recognition...we had to be able to identify all types of aircraft so we would not shoot at friendly planes...we had been briefed that the Russians were receiving P-63s from the Americans and we had studied photos and drawings of them. The P-63s flew over us at only about 15-20 meters that day. I thought they were Airacobras at first, but then I noticed the wing planform was different from the P-39 and I could see the half-exposed tires in the wheel wells. When one of the planes went into a steep banking turn, I could see the taller vertical fin and noticed an ADF loop antenna behind the cockpit, which had never been seen on the P-39. I know for a fact that these were Kingcobras. I even stated this in the report I filed to my command after the attack."

You know what, Oleg? I believe him.
His observation that there were no covers for the lower part of the wheels, the taller tail and the ADF loop behind the cockpit leads me to believe that these really were P-63s.
=========================================

Sad that I got such info too late.... But....
I hope that P-63 will be finally in one of add-ons (already in progress by one great guy

I/JG54^Lukas
He 162A-2 Cockpit Modeler


Message Edited on 06/25/0304:21PM by JG54_Lukas

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 12:41 AM
I remember that post. I've pushed for the P-63 ever since.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/hartm1-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 11:58 AM
AFAIK as about 1/3 of the Russian fighters over Berlin at the end of the war were P-39's.. some might well have been P-63's. There's also been debate that some P-39 units finns fought against were reported being especially tough and have might flown Kingcobra instead. =/

ZG77_Nagual
06-26-2003, 03:33 PM
Lets hope we get to see this relatively unknown but interesting plane. One other account was circulated of a Dora pilot dogfighting against a P-63 which "escaped by climbing"


http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 03:16 AM
There is no question that with regards to manueverability, the P-63 was among the best of the US production fighters. It was the best turning, best rolling and best climbing (from low to medium altitudes) when compared the P-47D, P-51D and P-38J/L. It would have made a splendid dogfighter.

It's range was simply too small and there was no USAAF interest.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/corsairs.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
06-27-2003, 07:04 PM
I hope this thread stays alive for awhile - maybe gathers some good info about this beauty.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 11:04 AM
Hurri-Khan wrote:
- I ran into this statement too:
- "The United States supplied 2,400 P-63s to the
- Soviets but by the time they arrived and front-line
- units were ready to take them into combat, the war
- in Europe was over. Not a single P-63 flew against
- the Germans. Only 51 had reached operational status
- in the Soviet Air Force by VE Day, and these were
- based near Moscow. Soviet Kingcobra pilots did see
- combat in the Pacific during the last days of war.
- Their only aerial victory occurred on August 15,
- 1945, against a Japanese fighter."
-

That's right, the only registered kill by a P-63 was achieved by Mladshy Leytenant Miroshnishenko who flew as a wingman to the famous ace Kapitan Vyatcheslav Sirotin when they engaged two Oscars (or, at least recorded as Oscars, they may have been Franks because some of these were also flying in the area) trying to attack soviet transport planes : Miroshnishenko got one and the other one came low and escaped in the hills.

The reason why the P-63 saw so no combat against Germany was that because of the fact the VVS was no longer short of airplanes, the soviets could afford testing it extensively and did it : as a consequence, only a handful were delivered to PVO units before VE day.

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 01:18 PM
there will be a LOT of happy gamers when we finally get this plane in our favourite game ... the P39 is fun to fly now .... imagine having better turning & more speed !!!!

btw did i forget to mention the better turning !!!!

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 05:08 PM
I can out turn La7 in the P-39 now. Turning has never been a problem for the P-39/P-63. We just need a better climb, and better performance at higher altitudes. The P-63 will cure that.

If we ever get the dam thing./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/hartm1-2.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
06-28-2003, 06:42 PM
nicli - you are mistaken - look at some of the threads above - p63s were seen by the germans on the EF. Quite possibly they were often mistaken for 39s.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 03:07 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- nicli - you are mistaken - look at some of the
- threads above - p63s were seen by the germans on the
- EF. Quite possibly they were often mistaken for 39s.
-
-

There's nothing strange about germans seeing P-63 over the eastern front, they also saw "Mustangs" (including one wich was claimed by "Illu" Juutilainen) which were all in fact Yak types (mainly Yak-9s).

And Mikhail Devyataev (the same as evoked above, who escaped in an He-111 on the the 8th of february 1945) was a 104 GvIAP pilot and this unit, like the 16th and 100th GvIAP with which it formed the top scoring 9th GvIAD division was entirely equipped with P-39 until the end of the war.

BTW, when fighting the 64th Sentai's Ki-43, the AVG pilots reported seeing Ki-27s, Zeros, and even Me-109s... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

On the 1st of May 1945, only 51 P-63s had been delivered to PVO units, the first equipped being a Moscow protection unit : the 28th IAP.



P.S. : I would really like flying the P-63 (the P-39 is already one of my favourite ones) but, as it saw more action, it would perhaps be more interresting to introduce the P-40C Tomahawk in the game.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 04:09 PM
Nice but please continue in General Discussion

<fontsize=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community FAQ (http://mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)
<fontsize=2>Hunter82's Tech Pages (http://mudmovers.com/tech/tech_pages.htm)

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 04:10 PM
Some photos of the P-63 to make you all druel./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.flyvintage.com/images/dx/tfc/p-63a/photos/10_duxford/p-63a_15.jpg

http://www.flyvintage.com/images/dx/tfc/p-63a/photos/10_duxford/p-63a_19.jpg

http://www.flyvintage.com/images/dx/tfc/p-63a/photos/10_duxford/p-63a_01.jpg

http://www.flyvintage.com/images/dx/tfc/p-63a/photos/10_duxford/p-63a_08.jpg


P-39

http://www.realtime.net/centex/p-39usa.jpg

http://www.cobuck.ang.af.mil/Historic%20Aircraft/images/Aircraft%20Bell%20P-39.jpg




http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg