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KraljMatjaz
10-13-2005, 01:41 PM
Hello all

I am wondering this, because anything I have read (not that much to be frank) states that nearly any contemporary fighter could outturn bf109. bf109 is almost always regarded as champion in speed and climb, but not turn...

in PF it can turn almost with anything. Especially G2, G6AS, F2, F4 are incredible turners.

so, can you guys please enlighten me?
anybody maybe has some RL documents with turning-charts of bf109 (would be very interested to overview them)?

thank you

danjama
10-13-2005, 01:52 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif You dont know howthings work round here do you?

MEGILE
10-13-2005, 01:54 PM
What version of the game are you playing?

For me the only thing which BF-109s can outturn is the B-24.

faustnik
10-13-2005, 01:59 PM
B-24s are clearly overmodeled. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

p1ngu666
10-13-2005, 02:02 PM
109 was best at everything, be sure.

Waldo.Pepper
10-13-2005, 02:06 PM
Dum-de-dum -- Dum-de-dum.

Monty_Thrud
10-13-2005, 02:11 PM
Ok..its got to be another fishing trip here, its p-atch time, got to be here tomorrow

You havent said against which aircraft, however, if it is a genuine query..i'd also say the Bf109G2/G6AS turn to well, but thats comparing it to the Spit IX...which WB are you useing?

alert_1
10-13-2005, 03:45 PM
Sustained turn (360, 1000 alt) for Me109 was as follows:
Me109F2,F4 19s
Me109G1,2,4 20-21s
Me109G6,14,10 22-23s
--------------------------
Yak 1B 19s
La5, 5F,FN 20-21s

Me109 wasnt bad turner, there was no reason for that (LW pilots didnt prefer sustained turning though ) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Tully__
10-13-2005, 06:32 PM
Reletive turn performance is quoted for specific speed and altitude conditions. It also is quoted for sustained level turns. Under other circumstances the turn performances are often very different. If you're being out turned by Bf109s on a regular basis it's likely that you're not flying your own aircraft to its best advantages (or if you're flying 109's and out turning other aircraft on a regular basis it's likely they're not flying their aircraft the their best advantages).

The best turner in the game (likely I-153 or p11-c) can be outturned by the 109 under the correct conditions, likewise the worst turner in the game (P-47 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) can outturn the 109 in the right conditions.

carguy_
10-13-2005, 06:39 PM
Hmmm.Any contemporary fighter.Sounds like uuuh erm an IAR could oooutturn Bf109.If we are talking bout fighters the Bf110 could outturn it too?

Can you list the books you read maybe?

Daiichidoku
10-13-2005, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
The best turner in the game (likely I-153 or p11-c) can be outturned by the 109 under the correct conditions, likewise the worst turner in the game (P-47 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) can outturn the 109 in the right conditions.


P 11 isnt even in the top 10, lol
J8 is THE best turner in FB..I 153 prob second best
surely among the top 10 turners (in no particular order) are the Ki43, A6M2,Go-229, B-29, B-24, Me-323, Fi-156, G.50, D3A1, Po-2 and the Fw-189


cant argue about the worst turner tho...unless one counts a compressed 38http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...even the B1 outturns a Jug...even if it is in a compressed bunt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

VW-IceFire
10-13-2005, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by KraljMatjaz:
Hello all

I am wondering this, because anything I have read (not that much to be frank) states that nearly any contemporary fighter could outturn bf109. bf109 is almost always regarded as champion in speed and climb, but not turn...

in PF it can turn almost with anything. Especially G2, G6AS, F2, F4 are incredible turners.

so, can you guys please enlighten me?
anybody maybe has some RL documents with turning-charts of bf109 (would be very interested to overview them)?

thank you
Depends on the 109 tested.

Many of the tests were carried out by Western sources and many of those aircraft were fitted with 20mm gondola cannons on the wings. The ones in FB don't turn well with those things installed and neither did the real ones.

The best dogfighters of the bunch were the Bf109F's which were regarded as the nicest handling of all the 109 series.

So really its a big huge question with many answers.

TX-Gunslinger
10-13-2005, 09:46 PM
Ok, I was batting about 100% in not sticking my foot in all these 109 threads. Oh well, here goes my stats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For those of you who have'nt had the opportunity, I'd highly recommend the "War Diary of Helmut Lipfert" by Helmut Lipfert.

You will rarely find an engagement in the book without some sort of turning.

I just recently re-read it and was amazed at Lipfert's description of engagements, day after day which included turning combat with highly manueverable Soviet aircraft.

Anyway, if you really want a first hand look at the 109G2 and G6's were used in engagements in JG51 then I'd highly recommend this book.

S~

Gun

Chadburn
10-13-2005, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
Ok, I was batting about 100% in not sticking my foot in all these 109 threads. Oh well, here goes my stats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For those of you who have'nt had the opportunity, I'd highly recommend the "War Diary of Helmut Lipfert" by Helmut Lipfert.

You will rarely find an engagement in the book without some sort of turning.

I just recently re-read it and was amazed at Lipfert's description of engagements, day after day which included turning combat with highly manueverable Soviet aircraft.

Anyway, if you really want a first hand look at the 109G2 and G6's were used in engagements in JG51 then I'd highly recommend this book.

S~

Gun

Read a book??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Everything you need to know about how 109's should perform are contained in two documents:
a British report of a captured 109E and Kit Carson's "Best of the Breed" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Vipez-
10-14-2005, 06:00 AM
Again reminds me, how BF110 is still the most undermodelled plane in the game in terms of turn rate.. it's sustained turn is still about 30 secs, when for real 110G it was something like 23 seconds. For the BF110C even better. Those missing seconds really could make a difference

D13th_Toppy
10-14-2005, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Hmmm.Any contemporary fighter.Sounds like uuuh erm an IAR could oooutturn Bf109.If we are talking bout fighters the Bf110 could outturn it too?

Can you list the books you read maybe?

Ehhmm... an IAR-80 would outturn an 109... for the later IAR version the maneuvrability (especially turn rate) degraded to about 109E levels, due to the weight increase.

carguy_
10-14-2005, 06:06 AM
Granted the Bf109G2 has somewhere around 21secs,23secs would make a fighter out of a 110.Equal or better than a FW190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Vipez-
10-14-2005, 07:11 AM
Yes, BF110 was actually quite good turner,, but it's roll rate was $hit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

would love to outturn Laggs with 110C http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Manos1
10-14-2005, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by KraljMatjaz:
I am wondering this, because anything I have read (not that much to be frank) states that nearly any contemporary fighter could outturn bf109. bf109 is almost always regarded as champion in speed and climb, but not turn...

in PF it can turn almost with anything. Especially G2, G6AS, F2, F4 are incredible turners.

so, can you guys please enlighten me?
anybody maybe has some RL documents with turning-charts of bf109 (would be very interested to overview them)?

thank you

OK, KraljMatjaz, either you are rather new to the game, or the fishing season is on again...

1. It always depends on whom you fly against!

2. Do you fly online (against other human players) or offline (against Artificial Intelligence pilots)?

3. Do you have all patches installed? 4.01 is the current version

4. Do you fly the Bf-109 or do you fly the Spitfire ?

In general, a Bf109 pilot who knows his plane and has the correct joystick (force feedback) can turn very fast against an inexperienced pilot.
Just to make this understandable: If you drive a Spitfire at 550Km/h and start turning with a Bf109 flying at 350Km/h which plane is going to make the sharper turn?
The Bf109 !

So it is a combination of speed and turning rate.
All turn rate tests are done based on a specific speed. In practice in a dogfight the speed of the two opponents will not be equal.

A good Bf109 pilot would not allow himself to get engaged in a turning fight with a Spitfire.
On the other side there are so many inexperienced Spitfire pilots online nowadays that Bf109 pilots do it more often nowadays. They bet on the fact that the inexperienced pilot will lose his nerves, pull a bit harder on the stick and enter a stall. After that the Spitfire is an easy target.

So, if you fly a Spitfire, enter a turning fight against a Bf109 and you suddently lose control of your Spitfire and enter a stall, it is not the Bf109 that is the better turner.

Besides, the best turner is the FW190 but, you need to define: what is a turn, how much should you turn in one go, what is the optimum speed (Km/h) to initiate a turn, how to turn.

In General I agree with you, G2 makes exceptional turns if you know how to use it, G6/AS does not (unless if you have other than 4.01 patch), F2, F4 are very good turners, too.

Talking about real turners,
The best plane is the YAK-3 but very difficult to fly
Also best plane is the LA-5FN, easier to fly than the YAK-3s
THE PLANE is the Spitfire (some like the 1941 version, others prefer the 1943 series) If you know how to fly it you can not be beaten (unless if you are not watching enough your rear view mirror)-> Remember, good Bf109 pilots always work in pairs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


And the hunting season is on again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~S~

p1ngu666
10-14-2005, 08:30 AM
in a coop i flew recently, the F series out turned my spit vb easily, the F series pilot couldnt, but he was close http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

F series ingame, is also better at everything else aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

ploughman
10-14-2005, 08:59 AM
Forget not also that the Spitfire holds its speed in a turn where as other types, such as the 109, bleed it off. As such the 109 will turn inside a Spit as it loses speed.

The additional peril for the Spit pilot is it is easy to black out in a Spitfire. The Bader patch to correct for this has yet to be released for some reason.

F19_Olli72
10-14-2005, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
Yes, BF110 was actually quite good turner,, but it's roll rate was $hit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

would love to outturn Laggs with 110C http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yeah C version wouldve rocked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif In "Fighter Boys" you can read that during Battle of France, Air Marshal Barrat offered a dinner in Paris to the first pilot who downed a Me 110.It was three pilots from No.1 squadron who got the dinner. In their squadron record was written that the Me 110 "proved very maneouvrable, doing half rolls and diving out, coming up in stall turns" and "As a result of this combat it may be stated that the Me 110, although very fast and maneouvrable for a twin engined aircraft, can be easily outmaneouvred by a Hurricane"

F19_Ob
10-14-2005, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by KraljMatjaz:
Hello all

I am wondering this, because anything I have read (not that much to be frank) states that nearly any contemporary fighter could outturn bf109. bf109 is almost always regarded as champion in speed and climb, but not turn...

in PF it can turn almost with anything. Especially G2, G6AS, F2, F4 are incredible turners.

so, can you guys please enlighten me?
anybody maybe has some RL documents with turning-charts of bf109 (would be very interested to overview them)?

thank you


As u see this is a sensitive subject.
Not a single person can definately say that the turning ability of the 109's is spot on or not.
Remember also that this latest patch 4.01 is the first with the new FM and some planes will likely need some individual tuning in some areas of flight.

One side of this debate is very hard to prove or disprove, because we will never have the firsthand experience of flight in these planes.

One thing we can be absolutely sure of is that there are experts in this sim wich have concentrated to fly a few or even a single plane for years to get good on it online.
This part is often forgotten in the discussion and posters assume the FM on one plane is wrong because they didn't succeed to fight and win in it as they expected.

Nowadays I fly most planes and often chance and take a plane wich I'm unfamiliar in online.
Since we only can voice our own opinion in this matter I'll say what I belive.
I'm not at all sure the FM on any plane is spot on, and if we take the 109's as an example I can say I have fought and won multiple times over all types against people I consider experts. I have also lost against many allied types in situations where I could have won and sometimes I have felt outclassed by planetypes I have shot down plenty of.
So, I don't feel the 109 better in turn with spits, La5 or yaks.
The gentle stall in the 109 and its accelleration is very good wich makes it accellerate and climb from slow speed where many allied planes can't compete and will stall (including the spits).
However that is absolutely no garanti to win the fight. I have myself forseen and countered this move from 109's in Hurricanes and been able to evade or even win the fight.
The 109 can also declerate better and faster than many allied planes because of its gentle stall by idling engine and pull hard and by that method achieve one single good turn inside for example a yak wich have a harder time to declerate like this. One can be in real trouble if one misses while doing this maneuver because the enemy then will have the energy advantage.

109's and some other planes have slats and these are an aid when turning hard at slow speeds. This is one of the factors wich makes it so good.

If I compare the La5 with 109 I can say I have outurned so many 109's with it in all types of fighting and even in slow scissoring on the deck so I can't say the 109 turns better.
Yaks are a bit unstable in the slowest speeds but the fastfiring armament makes up for that since one needs less deflection.

With all this said I'll add that I myself have doubts sometimes and feel that for example the spit turns too porly, but then after reading some pilot accounts and refreshing my memmory there were situations in RL where 109's outturned spits.

All these above named planes are close in specs wich mean that the one who enters the fight with an angle on the other is likely to win the fight. Then add to that all the variables of things wich affects a dogfight.

I'll also mention that my brother have more doubts regarding the 109G2 sometimes and would choose the 109G2 over the spit5 anyday because of the good breake-turn and its stallfighting capabilities, so would I probably, but we get along fine anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The early spit is not the same as the late spit though.


well a few thoughts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

IL2-chuter
10-14-2005, 01:35 PM
Good points. A British flight test report on the 109E against a contemporary Spitfire showed a definitive turning advantage for the Spitfire but the 109's easy stall characteristics (those slat thingies) made it much easier to fly near the stall and that gave a max turn advantage to the 109 if both pilots were not so sharp.


Sounds abit like an Einstein thing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

FritzGryphon
10-14-2005, 02:12 PM
Do not confuse turning ability with other factors, like stall behavior.

I've tested the 109 sustained turn rates, in most FB and PF versions, and they have always been spot on.

The sole reason that 'history' books say that 109 turns bad, is because the Bf-109E turned bad. About as poorly as FW-190. All subsequent versions of Bf-109 had turn times in the 19-21 second range (not including bombs or pods). Same as Hurricane, some Yaks, and many other planes with mediocre turn.

Still, this is nowhere near close to contemporary Spits, which are always the favorite in a turn fight. Especially comparing 109E turn to Spit I is silly, Spit I is about 30% better in sustained turn, maybe 40-50% smaller radius.

If 109E ever outturned Spit I, it was simply due to pilot factors or initial advantage. These have more impact on combat results than performance figures.

If you would like to see turn statistics, a good place to start is the object viewer in PF. Some numbers are not perfect, but for the most part, in the ballpark.

Tully__
10-14-2005, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
...The Bader patch to correct for this has yet to be released for some reason.

LOL, not sure I want to lose my legs for the benefit of turning better in one aircraft (maybe two, he flew Hurri's as well) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
10-14-2005, 04:53 PM
Fritz Gryphon wrote:

Especially comparing 109E turn to Spit I is silly, Spit I is about 30% better in sustained turn, maybe 40-50% smaller radius.

If 109E ever outturned Spit I, it was simply due to pilot factors or initial advantage. These have more impact on combat results than performance figures.

I'v read sources that said that the 109E actually had a ever-so-slightly smaller turning radius than the Spit I, but because to get that radius it was moving so slowly, the Spit would gain angles by virtue of its greater sustained energy and speed. Thus, the Spit will "outturn" a 109 handily in most situations, as a general rule.

p1ngu666
10-14-2005, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
Good points. A British flight test report on the 109E against a contemporary Spitfire showed a definitive turning advantage for the Spitfire but the 109's easy stall characteristics (those slat thingies) made it much easier to fly near the stall and that gave a max turn advantage to the 109 if both pilots were not so sharp.


Sounds abit like an Einstein thing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

the email was iffy at the stall, snatched, email pilots didnt like to go there, spitfire was very easy to hang on the edge of the envolope.

109 maybe abit too good currently, but maybe the big edge it has now is its SO easy to fly compaired to other planes, no real handling issues to worry about really..

Monty_Thrud
10-14-2005, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Forget not also that the Spitfire holds its speed in a turn where as other types, such as the 109, bleed it off. As such the 109 will turn inside a Spit as it loses speed.

The additional peril for the Spit pilot is it is easy to black out in a Spitfire. The Bader patch to correct for this has yet to be released for some reason.

Thats exactly whats happening...i'm blackingout while Mr G2 is putting cannon shells in ma rear....WRONG!...but hey its just a game...A mother beautiful game

Aaron_GT
10-14-2005, 05:34 PM
Thats exactly whats happening...i'm blackingout while Mr G2 is putting cannon shells in ma rear....WRONG!...

It might be right if the Spit has retained a fair amount of E (speed) and has not been able to tighten its turn and is pulling max Gs but the 109 has bled off its speed, turned tighter, but with the last bit (to put it on target) at lower Gs and is taking a pot shot before the Spit begins to pull away. If at this point the Spit decides to go into a dive or climb to attempt to pull away the 109 might be able to pour on the coals and maintain or even shorten the distance (depending on models of Spit and 109 and altitude involved).

If you can continue to turn the Spit, though, the 109 will be out of speed and then you can do whatever you want in the Spit with an E advantage.

What I find hard is:-
1. Knowing what the guy behind is driving if you didn't see him before he/she started shooting.
2. Resisting the urge to just straighten up and go into the vertical.
3. Knowing when enough extra turn has been enough to leave the opponent slow enough.
4. Combining this with keeping an eye out for the second 109...

HellToupee
10-15-2005, 01:38 AM
spit can outturn at higher speed but will result in blackout, 109 can slow down turn and also get speed back, at very low speeds g2 is superior to spit 9 spit9 flops around like a fish just trying to hold a turn while the g2 can go into virtical moves. G6as g14 etc are very close in turn, unless gunpods, k4 tho cant turn nearly as good. Also in 4.01 109s much easyer to turn fight with than the spitfire.

blindpugh
10-15-2005, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
Ok, I was batting about 100% in not sticking my foot in all these 109 threads. Oh well, here goes my stats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

For those of you who have'nt had the opportunity, I'd highly recommend the "War Diary of Helmut Lipfert" by Helmut Lipfert.

You will rarely find an engagement in the book without some sort of turning.

I just recently re-read it and was amazed at Lipfert's description of engagements, day after day which included turning combat with highly manueverable Soviet aircraft.

Anyway, if you really want a first hand look at the 109G2 and G6's were used in engagements in JG51 then I'd highly recommend this book.

S~

Gun I think the bait was in the letters PF

blindpugh
10-15-2005, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
What version of the game are you playing?

For me the only thing which BF-109s can outturn is the B-24. the bait is PF

G.J.deRue
10-15-2005, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
...cant argue about the worst turner tho...unless one counts a compressed 38http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...even the B1 outturns a Jug...even if it is in a compressed bunt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
Have you tried setting the fuel quantity to 50% or 25%? I don't need to be on neptune often, so I usually use less.

JG5_UnKle
10-15-2005, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
For those of you who have'nt had the opportunity, I'd highly recommend the "War Diary of Helmut Lipfert" by Helmut Lipfert.


Word! That book is excellent and I agree 100% Lipfert wasn't afraid of a turn fight and his descriptions are very vivid including buffeting, wing vapour aircraft departing - very interesting read.

danjama
10-15-2005, 01:39 PM
I find Emils really nice to turn in, especially at low speeds, but it doesnt have a yearly equivalent spit in the game.

Manos1
10-15-2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
109 maybe abit too good currently, but maybe the big edge it has now is its SO easy to fly compaired to other planes, no real handling issues to worry about really..


New bait, first time caught no fish http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Xiolablu3
10-15-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
Good points. A British flight test report on the 109E against a contemporary Spitfire showed a definitive turning advantage for the Spitfire but the 109's easy stall characteristics (those slat thingies) made it much easier to fly near the stall and that gave a max turn advantage to the 109 if both pilots were not so sharp.


Sounds abit like an Einstein thing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

the email was iffy at the stall, snatched, email pilots didnt like to go there, spitfire was very easy to hang on the edge of the envolope.

109 maybe abit too good currently, but maybe the big edge it has now is its SO easy to fly compaired to other planes, no real handling issues to worry about really.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats wierd Pingu, I find the 109E a bit of a dog (but I'm a rookie) and find the jump in performance between 109E and 109F4 massive in the game.

(This should be true for real life too becasue the F model was a complete redesign on the 109)

(PS: Come and have a game on UKD1 Battlefields server with us one night. Great maps and great people.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Xiolablu3
10-16-2005, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
in a coop i flew recently, the F series out turned my spit vb easily, the F series pilot couldnt, but he was close http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

F series ingame, is also better at everything else aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Combat Flaps will allow the 109 to turn better and also slow right down to turn even tighter.

Skalgrim
10-16-2005, 06:37 AM
the turntime was make with 1,3 ata

with higher ata sure better because better powerload better turntime,

when you compare the turntime from real in pf then must you use 1,3 ata at 1000m

butch2k has doko that g6 has 21sec turntime, think 23sec was make with gundspods

gundspods was 43 almost standart for g6 at westfront, that is the base you see many time for the g6 23 sec or too 23,6 sec turntime, it is from g6 with gundspods



the 1,3 ata tests too the base that the turntime from g10,g14 or g6 are same although differ power,

because they was all test with same ata

mw50 was most use for climb or levelfly

for sustain turn is powerloading importing,

g14 or g10 should better turning as g6 at least so long they can use mw50




Originally posted by alert_1:
Sustained turn (th360, 1000 alt) for Me109 was as follows:
Me109F2,F4 19s
Me109G1,2,4 20-21s
Me109G6,14,10 22-23s
--------------------------
Yak 1B 19s
La5, 5F,FN 20-21s

Me109 wasnt bad turner, there was no reason for that (LW pilots didnt prefer sustained turning though ) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ImpStarDuece
10-16-2005, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Fritz Gryphon wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Especially comparing 109E turn to Spit I is silly, Spit I is about 30% better in sustained turn, maybe 40-50% smaller radius.

If 109E ever outturned Spit I, it was simply due to pilot factors or initial advantage. These have more impact on combat results than performance figures.

I'v read sources that said that the 109E actually had a ever-so-slightly smaller turning radius than the Spit I, but because to get that radius it was moving so slowly, the Spit would gain angles by virtue of its greater sustained energy and speed. Thus, the Spit will "outturn" a 109 handily in most situations, as a general rule. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The British comparison of the Spitfire I, Hurricane I and Bf-109E actually gives the Hurricane the best turning circle, Spitfire the next best and 109E the worst.

Ring's fantastic P.R.O site used to have the British tests, but unfortunately, it seems to be offline at the moment. Funnily enough, in the testing the Hurricane was rated better than the 109 as a close in dogfighter, but given a lower rating overall due to speed and climb. British pilots reconed that the Hurricane was the easiest to fly and fight of the three.

Skalgrim
10-16-2005, 06:55 AM
it was too depent from the altitude, some alts was 109 better because significant powerloading
advantage

real was probable more depent from altitude as game which plane now better turn

example la-7 and k4, at 3200m has k4 1900ps
la-7 1350ps

think with so strong powerloading advantage for k4 , should la-7 not so easy outturn k4 at 3200m as at sealevel


Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Fritz Gryphon wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Especially comparing 109E turn to Spit I is silly, Spit I is about 30% better in sustained turn, maybe 40-50% smaller radius.

If 109E ever outturned Spit I, it was simply due to pilot factors or initial advantage. These have more impact on combat results than performance figures.

I'v read sources that said that the 109E actually had a ever-so-slightly smaller turning radius than the Spit I, but because to get that radius it was moving so slowly, the Spit would gain angles by virtue of its greater sustained energy and speed. Thus, the Spit will "outturn" a 109 handily in most situations, as a general rule. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The British comparison of the Spitfire I, Hurricane I and Bf-109E actually gives the Hurricane the best turning circle, Spitfire the next best and 109E the worst.

Ring's fantastic P.R.O site used to have the British tests, but unfortunately, it seems to be offline at the moment. Funnily enough, in the testing the Hurricane was rated better than the 109 as a close in dogfighter, but given a lower rating overall due to speed and climb. British pilots reconed that the Hurricane was the easiest to fly and fight of the three. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ImpStarDuece
10-16-2005, 07:05 AM
Really?

I imagine that the 109E would have had an advantage against Spitfire Is with the two bladed wooden prop. They struggled with the thin air and didn't perform well up high.

However, given that most Spitfires recieved 3 bladed de Haviland constant speed propellors from June/July 1940, with a commesurate increase in altitude performance (and a 7,000 foot increas in fligh ceiling), I would imagine that the 109s margin of advantage would off been considerably whittled away. I really wish that I had downloaded the trails. While obviously not 100% accurate, they give a good example as to the RAFs thoughts on enemy performance capabilities.

ImpStarDuece
10-16-2005, 07:26 AM
Spitfire Is with Merlin IIIs on 100 octane at +12lbs boost produced around 1,310 hp at 5,500 feet. This corresponds with the RR tests, although other sources give 1,440hp as maximum power at the same height. Best power at high alt was about 1,030 hp a 16,000 feet. Power dropped to about 760 hp at 25,000 feet.

Does anyone have curves for the DB-601? I would be interseted. Various sources I have give 4.0 km as full throttle height for 1939 engines and 4.5 km as full throttle height for 1940 engines.

Manos1
10-17-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
in a coop i flew recently, the F series out turned my spit vb easily, the F series pilot couldnt, but he was close http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

F series ingame, is also better at everything else aswell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Combat Flaps will allow the 109 to turn better and also slow right down to turn even tighter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What kind of cr... is this!

The numbers are very easy:
In the current version of the game,
A Spit Vb has a turn rate of
http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/TURN_SPIT_VB.jpg

A Bf109 F2 series has a turning rate of this
http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/TURN_BF_F2.jpg

This means that at best a Bf109-F2 will turn at 20secs
A Spitfire Vb at best turns at 19secs

The Spitfire has a turning rate 1 sec faster than the Bf109-F series !

So, if you get kicked by a Bf109-F while flying a Spitfire Vb you should better spend more time to improve your flying, than whining about "how the Bf109s turn better than your Spitfire"

And spend a bit more time in studying performance charts rather than talking about your experience flying against other equaly ignorant Bf109 pilots...

~S~

mynameisroland
10-17-2005, 08:30 PM
I reckon the 109 F 2/4 was much superior to the spitfire in all practical dogfighting situations except for retaining E and also manuvering at high speed.

If you decide to dogfight a 109 in its regime it will shoot most if not any other fighter down. It has a superb power loading, light weight, great acceleration, great climb, great weaponry too. If you stay fast and use the Spitfire to its strengths you should win.

In 1941/42 the Luftwaffe (mainly in their 109 F4's) outscored the largely Spitfire Vb equipped RAF 4 to 1. They did have tactical superiority and great pilots but the 109 F4 was generally the best dogfighter in the world in 41/42.

p1ngu666
10-17-2005, 11:02 PM
ingame the AI F series *easily* out turns a spit vb by a human pilot. plus its better at everything else. im dubious of the F series being WAY better, incidently the spit vb ingame is some 40 to 20kph too slow at all heights.

alt plays a large effect, controls of some planes just seeze up at high alt, im dubious about that. above 2k u cant be sure to out turn a 109 in a hurri cos the controls are so stiff.

last spit vs 109 coop i flew, was VIII against 109g6, (both types cant remmber) they proved surprisingly difficult to dispatch, my VIII was *right* on the limit...

i think the dubious stall speed of the 109 helps it alot in turns, as for each G u pull, the more the plane "weighs". so if its say 10mph off, at 2g itll stall 20mph too late (may not be a straight line but...)

so on the limit a slight error in FM can multiply, creating a big advantage. the difference between cr4p and clown plane isnt as big in % as we may think...

Badsight.
10-17-2005, 11:10 PM
Bf-109 F & G dont turn "faster" or "tighter" than they did in v3.04 when Spitfires were UFO's

whats changed is the stability of both planes when near & at the edge of stalling

v4.01 Spitfires still have a slight faster turn time that they had in v3.04 over Bf-109s . what they dont have is the same stability at the edge

Hoarmurath
10-18-2005, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ingame the AI F series *easily* out turns a spit vb by a human pilot. plus its better at everything else. im dubious of the F series being WAY better, incidently the spit vb ingame is some 40 to 20kph too slow at all heights.

alt plays a large effect, controls of some planes just seeze up at high alt, im dubious about that. above 2k u cant be sure to out turn a 109 in a hurri cos the controls are so stiff.

last spit vs 109 coop i flew, was VIII against 109g6, (both types cant remmber) they proved surprisingly difficult to dispatch, my VIII was *right* on the limit...

i think the dubious stall speed of the 109 helps it alot in turns, as for each G u pull, the more the plane "weighs". so if its say 10mph off, at 2g itll stall 20mph too late (may not be a straight line but...)

so on the limit a slight error in FM can multiply, creating a big advantage. the difference between cr4p and clown plane isnt as big in % as we may think...

If you insist about turning at stall speed with your plane, then you have understood nothing about aerial combat with WW2 technology.

partic_3
10-18-2005, 01:33 AM
Why has no-one else pointed this out?
It should be "turn so goodly".
Thanks.
Bye.

Manos1
10-18-2005, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:

ingame the AI F series *easily* out turns a spit vb by a human pilot. plus its better at everything else. im dubious of the F series being WAY better, incidently the spit vb ingame is some 40 to 20kph too slow at all heights.

===================================

last spit vs 109 coop i flew, was VIII against 109g6, (both types cant remmber) they proved surprisingly difficult to dispatch, my VIII was *right* on the limit...



Look p1nhu666,

You need to be precise about what you are talking about.
============================
AI Pilots !
Yes, there is a big difference between AI pilots and Human pilots:
An AI pilots (above a certain limit (that is veteran level)) will never make an error and will always fly his plane at the edge.
A human pilot will NEVER manage to do that over a sustained period of time (actually, I know 2 pilots who can do that but this is irrelevant).

Just to stop talking rubbish here, if an AI (veteran+) Spitfire gets behind you, you will never get away!
If an AI (veteran+) of any other plane (other than a Spitfire) gets behind you, you have good chances to get away!
So please stop writting such things about the Bf109s and try to be more objective.

======================

IF you had a problem against a Bf109-G6:
(unless if it were a Bf109-G6/AS which I doubt it, because that is a late 1944 model and in that case you would not be flying Spit VIII).

STOP POSTING RUBBISH AND LEARN TO FLY YOUR PLANE !

The Bf109-G6 is the worst Bf109 plane you can ever fly. Turnrate is 21,2sec (Your Spit VIII turns at 19,5sec)
If you have trouble against this plane, it is you who needs to learn to fly better, not the Spitfire that has to turn better.

And, get yourself a software to see the strentghs and weaknesses of the planes you fly versus the planes you fly against in the IL2 game.
Maybe after that you will stop posting such things here.

By the way, I do not what joystick you use but sometimes a better joystick will help you fly better "at the edge". Better settings of your joystick (in the conf.ini file) help, too.

Sorry for the harsh tone but, I think you are overdoing it with all your statements. Always the other plane, never your capacity to fly your own plane...


~S~

mynameisroland
10-18-2005, 07:21 AM
I dont have any problems whatever despatching 109 G6's when Im in a Spitfire VIII online or offline. The Spitfire is an excellent fighter in IL2 and it can beat hands down almost any other aircraft in the 43/44 timeframe IF FLOWN TO ITS ADVANTAGES. In fact the only times Ive been shot down by Blue Luftwaffe pilots while in a Spitfire IX or VIII have been when Ive gotten carried away and become fixated on one target and have been bounced by Fw 190's on the prowl.

If you fly with a safety 1st approach and attack enemy fighters then break off before you attract too much attention there is no reason for you to get shot down. The Spitfire is one of the better boom and zoom aircraft, it retains energy well, climbs well, has good firepower and when it comes down to it and the s_hit hits the fan , it is very happy dogfighting too

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 12:04 PM
yep 109G6 IS the worst 109... but against AI and humans, should a spit VIII be struggling against it?

it probably was better than the G6, but not by much AT ALL

actully, there never was a major difference between the IX/VIII and g6late

109s have been made better and better with each patch.

some ppl say im a **** pilot, some same im good. incidently i shot down 5 109s in that coop.

and hoarmurath, stall turns where common in ww2 combat to get someone off your 6 etc

HellToupee
10-18-2005, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
I dont have any problems whatever despatching 109 G6's when Im in a Spitfire VIII online or offline. The Spitfire is an excellent fighter in IL2 and it can beat hands down almost any other aircraft in the 43/44 timeframe IF FLOWN TO ITS ADVANTAGES. In fact the only times Ive been shot down by Blue Luftwaffe pilots while in a Spitfire IX or VIII have been when Ive gotten carried away and become fixated on one target and have been bounced by Fw 190's on the prowl.

If you fly with a safety 1st approach and attack enemy fighters then break off before you attract too much attention there is no reason for you to get shot down. The Spitfire is one of the better boom and zoom aircraft, it retains energy well, climbs well, has good firepower and when it comes down to it and the s_hit hits the fan , it is very happy dogfighting too

just so happened turn was one of the spitfires advantages especially over the g6, however the 109 is pretty much a ufo like in its ability to turn.

Manos1
10-18-2005, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
just so happened turn was one of the spitfires advantages especially over the g6, however the 109 is pretty much a ufo like in its ability to turn.

You guys do not even read the previous postings before posting your own!

If the 109-G6 is more than 1sec slower than the spitfire (21,2sec versus 19,5 of the Spit) where did you base your great assumption from?

Comm'on guys, please get a little bit more serious and try to understand the different flight models, learn to fly your planes and then start complaining about other people's planes and flying abilities.

p1ngu666, where did you dream that **** with the Bf09s been made better after every patch?
This means that you do not even read the "readme" files that come with the patch!

Besides, you shot 5 Bf109s and you complain that the Bf109 is a difficult plane to kill?
That the Spitfire was struggling against it!? How often in historical fights in WW2 did you have the case of 1 plane shooting 5 enemy planes in one and the same mission?
Can you please make up your mind?
Because I will say that the Spitfire is ridiculous if one spit can shoot down 5 Bf109s in one mission.
And I do not have seen 1 Bf109 shooting down 5 Spitfires in one go....

If you believe that you are such a good pilot then take a Bf109 and test how it flies against the other Spitfires. Then you can talk...

You fly Spitfires, the best airplane of the game since the previous patch! If you can not use it, then learn it. "Its the pilot, not the machine".

~S~

HellToupee
10-18-2005, 05:51 PM
1 second is not the issue, it is in that a 109 can turn without stall or snap, u can pull full elevator and hold a constant turn without stall at 200kph no snap some shaking, even when it does start to stall its easily compenstated for, spit in those conditions snap stalls also 109s can go into vertical moves from those conditions spit snap stalls trying, then theres flaps. Spit has a slight advantage in turn but the difference is the 109 can do all sortas crazy moves on the very edge where the spit is a vicious snap stalling pig.

p1ngu666
10-18-2005, 06:28 PM
hm, 109 might be worse in this patch, but in 401 it was the easiest plane to fly, no handling issues really...
last coop i flew in a g6/g6late vs various allied planes, they where gunned down so eaily, like a turkey shoot.

as for learning to fly planes, ive been playing the game consistantly for years.

i can fly the tb3, use all the bombsights on all the bombers.

in the coop i gained the tatical advantage in the dogfights, was really a series of dfs with 109s from 8km down to the deck. mostly it was drag and bag, hookin onto someone elses df and clearing them...

last time i czeched, g6 and g6late where abit worse, but not massivily so, that was in 3.x i think. ofcourse the mw50 109s easily outclimb and outspeed the spit. plus better in dive, probably better alirons too.

the spit isnt the best plane in the game tbh, 109s are better, 190s aswell...

incidently ive been ace in a day in a bunch of aircraft, il2, zero, p51, p47, p38 190s 109s alot of types http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

GT182
10-18-2005, 06:33 PM
I can say from experience that a F4 or G2 cannot turn without a stall or snap at 200kph in IL2FB. You cannot pull full up elevator either at any speed below 300kph to hold a constant turn. You will Stall and fall out of the sky. Do it at 200kph and your ground toast. Believe me, I can do it unintensionally everytime in the blink of an eye, without even trying. It's that "OH ****" feeling you get when you realise what you just did. Or, I'm not von_Spinmeister for nothing. LOL But then again, I'm not a real-life pilot either.

HellToupee
10-19-2005, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by GT182:
I can say from experience that a F4 or G2 cannot turn without a stall or snap at 200kph in IL2FB. You cannot pull full up elevator either at any speed below 300kph to hold a constant turn. You will Stall and fall out of the sky. Do it at 200kph and your ground toast. Believe me, I can do it unintensionally everytime in the blink of an eye, without even trying. It's that "OH ****" feeling you get when you realise what you just did. Or, I'm not von_Spinmeister for nothing. LOL But then again, I'm not a real-life pilot either.

well i can, i dont know what ur doing wrong but i can hold a turn with full diflection at 200kph, i can barley hold a turn with the spitfire at 260kph with landing flaps. Also stalling a 109 in the blink of an eye? ur joking right i can only get that thing to spin when going up.

mynameisroland
10-19-2005, 05:34 AM
Im not knocking any other pilots flying abilities, but I feel that when Im flying in a 109 F4 I can beat the Spitfire Vb in a one on one dogfight. When I fly in the Spitfire IX or VIII I can shoot down the 109 G2/6/14 very effectively.

I dont have any trouble out turning the 109 but Id rather control the fight managing my energy and using the vertical, when did turnfighting translate in to good practice for dogfighting? I think that the Spitfire and 109 were historically closely matched in the turn, the slots on the 109 aided its slow speed stall characteristics maybe thats why it has good behaviour in the stall regime. The Spitfire can pull in to a tighter instantaneous turn than the 109 can due to its greater elevator authority and that makes it a better dogfighter in my book. It is also cleaner and can pull very high AoA without washing out. I have killed 5 in a sortie with both types online. There is not great disparity between these two aircraft and the 109 is certainly not a UFO.

Manos1
10-19-2005, 10:03 AM
p1ngu666

Sorry p1ngu666 for my comments, you made some very vague posts in this thread which made me think you were not that knowledgeable.

It is true, the Bf109 stalls less than the Spitfire, same as it blacks out much less than the P-51.
But it is more that the Spit and the P-51 have more direct elevator response than anything else. This is why the AI pilots fly much better the plane (veterans+ do not stall).
As I posted above, you need to have a good joystick to fly at the edge, AND you need to tune the joystick settings in the conf.ini

And as Rolland already mentioned above, the slots in the Bf109 and the LA-5 series make the difference in the handling characteristics.

Again, the Spitfire is the best airplane in the game. This thing has no energy loss, can enter into any dogfight AND EXIT whenever it wants, regain tactical advantage AND RE-ENGAGE.
And has tremendous firepower.

If you know other planes which can do that, you're welcome to name them.

HellToupee
10-19-2005, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Im not knocking any other pilots flying abilities, but I feel that when Im flying in a 109 F4 I can beat the Spitfire Vb in a one on one dogfight. When I fly in the Spitfire IX or VIII I can shoot down the 109 G2/6/14 very effectively.

I dont have any trouble out turning the 109 but Id rather control the fight managing my energy and using the vertical, when did turnfighting translate in to good practice for dogfighting? I think that the Spitfire and 109 were historically closely matched in the turn, the slots on the 109 aided its slow speed stall characteristics maybe thats why it has good behaviour in the stall regime. The Spitfire can pull in to a tighter instantaneous turn than the 109 can due to its greater elevator authority and that makes it a better dogfighter in my book. It is also cleaner and can pull very high AoA without washing out. I have killed 5 in a sortie with both types online. There is not great disparity between these two aircraft and the 109 is certainly not a UFO.

Yes one can beat those types in the mk9 easily howevernot in turn, i have to use verticle moves and yoyos to stay with them in turns, if one enters a turning contest the 109 generally wins.

Manos the spitfire does have energy loss try it, hard turns will often half ur speed. 109 can also enter and exit dogfights with its huge acceleration, i watch them stall out then straight away recover and then fly straight up after me. Joystick settings or not the spit is far worse on the edge and will not stay with a 109. Yes its firepower is rather nice however the firepower does feel less than a g2 when the spitfire keeps losing wings to single hits.

Manos1
10-19-2005, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
Yes one can beat those types in the mk9 easily howevernot in turn, i have to use verticle moves and yoyos to stay with them in turns, if one enters a turning contest the 109 generally wins.

Manos the spitfire does have energy loss try it, hard turns will often half ur speed. 109 can also enter and exit dogfights with its huge acceleration, i watch them stall out then straight away recover and then fly straight up after me. Joystick settings or not the spit is far worse on the edge and will not stay with a 109. Yes its firepower is rather nice however the firepower does feel less than a g2 when the spitfire keeps losing wings to single hits.

"if one enters a turning contest the 109 generally wins."

Never lost a fight against a Bf109 when I was flying the Spitfire iin a turn fight except against one person (and that person is the Nr1. scorer in the whole ADW with some 400kills).

I agree with your point, you need to have tremendous patience to fly the Spit in the edge. I do have a special joystick in order to be able to realise when the "edge" is reached. (But, you can also hear it if your sound settings are correct).

But again, it is the skill of the pilot who makes the difference. As I mentionned in a post above, if the Spit pilot has no nerves he will lose the turning fight but, not because the Spit is worse.
The Spit guns are a TREMENDOUS advantage, just like the russian planes. I CAN shoot at a Bf209 in a turning fight because my AOA is sufficient for my Spitfire guns.
My AOA is NOT SUFFICIENT FOR MY Bf109 GUNS !!!! (without my Bf109 losing so much energy as to enter a disadvantage situation (that means, if I risk all my energy for one shot and I am lucky, then I nailed the Spit, if I miss....I am dead meat).

Regarding the Bf109 exiting a fight, I do not agree entirely with you I can not run away against a Spit (except the very first ones which can not hold negative accelaration (nose down and acceleration)).
Of course, IF I select my point of exit (which every good Bf109 pilot knows how to) then, I have a chance to get away but, this part of fighter tactics not so much to do with the plane itself.

But now I start talking too much in a Spit thread so I will shut up... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It was nice talking to you guys, nice flying, see you maybe online next time.

~S~

neural_dream
10-19-2005, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Manos1:
I do have a special joystick in order to be able to realise when the "edge" is reached.
What joystick is that my friend? Sounds cool.

p1ngu666
10-19-2005, 01:22 PM
hm
k4 is 40kph+ than spit
and a extra 5 metres a sec too... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

since proclaiming not being utterly useless, ive become .... utterly useless http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ploughman
10-19-2005, 03:46 PM
It's been a while since I've stalled a Spit in the game, but historically the Spit told the pilot it was going to stall by vibrations felt through the control column and heard through the airframe. AFAIK most pilots reckoned this was plenty of warning up until the Mk XIV when the difference between the 'edge' and losing it became a little finer. As I don't have a FFB joystick I've no idea if this is well represented in the came but I recognise the sound of an impending stall in a Spit well enough.

What's a little bit interesting about Manos1's chart is the Spit turns faster whilst going faster. I'm not getting my protractor out but does that mean the turning circle is the same size as the F-4 or bigger? I'm guessing the Spit still won't be guns on until near the end of the turn, by which time maybe it's overshot.
(edit - Additional thoughts) And that's only if the Spit and the F-4 are at 275-290kph and the F-4's using combat flaps (if I read it right). At 375kph the tables are turned and the 109'll be decelerating quicker than the Spitfire. I guess for F-4s the lesson is not to turn fight the Spit below 325kph where it has the edge.

I like the F-4 better than the Spit Vb, though I've yet to Vb in 4.02m. The Spit's Vb's a nice ride but it communicates the least to the pilot out of all the Spits when its on the edge (no FFB joystick, should I get one?). VIIIs and XIs give plenty of chat and as such I don't stall them unless I want to.

But this is a Bf-109 thread. One reason they turn so well is those pesky leading edge slats. Cunning Jerries.

I'm off to Vb against f-4s.

Manos1
10-20-2005, 02:08 AM
The turning rate in seconds mean the the Spit will complete the turn faster than the Bf109.

Irrespective of the radius.

You are very correct noticing the difference in speed. This is the secret of entering the fight with the correct speed and keeping it during the dogfight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And this is where the Spit is the dream machine...
You are guns on for a snapshot, and still keep your speed to continue the fight.
A Bf109 pilot needs to be twice as good as a Spit pilot, because the first chance is also the last...
This is why Bf109 pilots have to be much better pilots that Spitfire pilots (no offence to the people in this thread, it was not meant scornfully).

There is a very good book everyone should read: R.Shaw's "Fighter Tactics"
Then you will understand why people complain about the flight models of the Allied planes in this game...
If you play IL2FB in "arcade mode" (="the harder I pull the stick, the harder my plane should turn, if it does not then the enemy planes are ueber...") then we end in threads like this.

People need to spend a lot more time studying the performance statistics (and there is more than turning rate) of their and the enemy planes before entering a dogfight.
OK, in a dogfight server online when you are against 10-15 different types of planes you need a lot of practice to keep all that in mind.
When you fly coops or ADW, you can do that.

By the way, I am sorry, I do not have the performance charts for the new patch 4.02m yet.


~S~
PS. and now I shut up...

ploughman
10-20-2005, 02:54 AM
Well yeah, but the radius is important in that if your radius is greater because your speed is greater and you're completing the turn more quickly you will pass in front of the guns of the plane moving more slowly around a smaller circle without ever getting your guns on him. But, as you said, you need to be aware of your speed when entering a turn and what this means for way the fight is going to develop.

I changed my joystick settings to limit my pitch and thus retain energy a week or two ago. My Y-axis maximum is now 68. It takes the Vb right to the edge of a stall but not beyond it. There's a bit of low speed handling that's lost which can make landings a bit hairy. I guess it's a bit of a cheat really but there you go. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for the book recomendation. I'll check it out. Have a good one!

HellToupee
10-20-2005, 03:39 AM
Im sorry but the First chance is the last and having to be twice as good is utter tripe. The 109 especially the mw50 get back any speed they lose in a snap, the spitfire has better turning at higher speed but what you dont understand is the 109 can continue to turn well below the speed at which a spitfire can continue to hold, a g2 will do it without flaps thus its radius will be smaller at higher speeds the 109 can pull lead being able to decelerate quickly when throttle is dropped, dropping throttle on spitfire has a much delayed effect. I have no issues outturning spitfires when flying 109s, hell i feel cheap flying it, i fly 190d9s on blue mostly.

Spitfire pilots have to be much better pilots than 109 pilots, piloting the spitfire requires a steady hand on the controls and careful use of energy to avoid entering turn fights when ever possible vs the 109, the 109 is as arcade as it gets few planes in the sim allow such hamfisted flying.

HellToupee
10-20-2005, 04:37 AM
Also what is it with turning performace of each 109 model

The 109 g2 is a total UFO turning far better than a f4. The F4 turns close to the levels of the later G model 109s, why does the g10 for instance with power levels far greater than the G2 yet about the same weight turning much worse, g2 i can get speeds down to 160kph in a tight turn remaining easily in control, g10 around 190 f4 about 180. K4 around 200-210 and spit mk 9 about the same all no flaps.

mynameisroland
10-20-2005, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Im not knocking any other pilots flying abilities, but I feel that when Im flying in a 109 F4 I can beat the Spitfire Vb in a one on one dogfight. When I fly in the Spitfire IX or VIII I can shoot down the 109 G2/6/14 very effectively.

I dont have any trouble out turning the 109 but Id rather control the fight managing my energy and using the vertical, when did turnfighting translate in to good practice for dogfighting? I think that the Spitfire and 109 were historically closely matched in the turn, the slots on the 109 aided its slow speed stall characteristics maybe thats why it has good behaviour in the stall regime. The Spitfire can pull in to a tighter instantaneous turn than the 109 can due to its greater elevator authority and that makes it a better dogfighter in my book. It is also cleaner and can pull very high AoA without washing out. I have killed 5 in a sortie with both types online. There is not great disparity between these two aircraft and the 109 is certainly not a UFO.

Yes one can beat those types in the mk9 easily howevernot in turn, i have to use verticle moves and yoyos to stay with them in turns, if one enters a turning contest the 109 generally wins.

Manos the spitfire does have energy loss try it, hard turns will often half ur speed. 109 can also enter and exit dogfights with its huge acceleration, i watch them stall out then straight away recover and then fly straight up after me. Joystick settings or not the spit is far worse on the edge and will not stay with a 109. Yes its firepower is rather nice however the firepower does feel less than a g2 when the spitfire keeps losing wings to single hits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is pretty much down to pilots opinion from WW2 - The Spitfire and 109 were very closely matched at all times during WW2 with neither aircraft leapfrogging the other for very long or by very far. It is all down to who is flying the aircraft. Imagine two equal pilots one in the 109 and one in the Spitfire I really do believe it would come down to the toss of a coin to predict the winner.

The Spitfire isnt as stable as the 109 close to the stall in IL2, Ive read also that experienced real life 109 pilots could out turn a spitfire by riding the stall and knowing just how much to push their plane. Generally speaking the Spitfire was a better turner for the average pilot. I still think this hold true as Ive yet to experience any severe cases of being out turned by a 109.

On the subject of turn fighting it should only be a means to an end I would rather not be involved in a sustained turn fight as there are so many variables. Remember a 109 can out turn a Zero if the conditions are right so out turning a Spitfire long enough to get a shot is all down to the angle to the target you already are , his energy state and more importantly your energy state.

Manos1
10-20-2005, 07:55 AM
"I have no issues outturning spitfires when flying 109s, hell i feel cheap flying it,"
http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/SUST_GLOAD_F2VB.jpg

Sustained (empfasis on SUSTAINED) max g-load of:
Bf109-F2 at 270Km/h: 2,0g
Spit Vb at 270Km/h: 2,6g

This means that (if you know how to fly) the Spit can consistently be pulling 0,6g HARDER than the Bf-109 without losing its speed.
That is a tremendous advantage!

A Bf109 pilot would have to consistenly fly at over 350Km/h in order to keep advantage over the Spit.

But I see that you are talking about how good the Bf109 flies slow not fast!
"G2 i can get speeds down to 160kph in a tight turn remaining easily in control, g10 around 190 f4 about 180" shows to me that you

also belong to the group of players which should invest more time in fighter tactics and less posting this **** in the forum:
Flying at 160Km/h in a tight turn in a G2 means that you are turning at over 40secs !!!!!!
This means that any Spitfire pilot not stupid enough to fly as slow as you but, retain the energy of his plane (and speed) over

300Km/h will be turning twice as fast as you.
Let's not confuse stupidity with capabilities of a plane....


Also what is hat with the turning performace of each 109 model?

The 109 g2 is a total UFO turning far better than a f4. The F4 turns close to the levels of the later G model 109s, why does the g10

for instance with power levels far greater than the G2 yet about the same weight turning much worse, g2 i can get speeds down to

160kph in a tight turn remaining easily in control, g10 around 190 f4 about 180. K4 around 200-210 and spit mk 9 about the same all no

flaps.


I can only say that if your "The 109 g2 is a total UFO turning far better than a f4" then you and me are not playing the same game.

Check whether you mixed your EAW programm with the IL2FB directory (LOL).

http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/TURN_BF_G2.jpg
http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/TURN_BF_F4.jpg
(The other graphs for the 109-F2 and Spit are posted in this thread above)
Turn rates:
-------------
Bf109-G2 19,8sec at 1000m at 305Km/h
Bf109-F4 19,5sec at 1000m at 310Km/h
Bf109-F2 19,9sec at 1000m at 300Km/h

So, learn to fly fighter tactics and do not let your subjective feeling force you to make such comments as you do now.


~S~

HellToupee
10-20-2005, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Manos1:
"I have no issues outturning spitfires when flying 109s, hell i feel cheap flying it,"
http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/SUST_GLOAD_F2VB.jpg

Sustained (empfasis on SUSTAINED) max g-load of:
Bf109-F2 at 270Km/h: 2,0g
Spit Vb at 270Km/h: 2,6g

This means that (if you know how to fly) the Spit can consistently be pulling 0,6g HARDER than the Bf-109 without losing its speed.
That is a tremendous advantage!

A Bf109 pilot would have to consistenly fly at over 350Km/h in order to keep advantage over the Spit.

But I see that you are talking about how good the Bf109 flies slow not fast!
"G2 i can get speeds down to 160kph in a tight turn remaining easily in control, g10 around 190 f4 about 180" shows to me that you

also belong to the group of players which should invest more time in fighter tactics and less posting this **** in the forum:
Flying at 160Km/h in a tight turn in a G2 means that you are turning at over 40secs !!!!!!
This means that any Spitfire pilot not stupid enough to fly as slow as you but, retain the energy of his plane (and speed) over

300Km/h will be turning twice as fast as you.
Let's not confuse stupidity with capabilities of a plane....


Also what is hat with the turning performace of each 109 model?

The 109 g2 is a total UFO turning far better than a f4. The F4 turns close to the levels of the later G model 109s, why does the g10

for instance with power levels far greater than the G2 yet about the same weight turning much worse, g2 i can get speeds down to

160kph in a tight turn remaining easily in control, g10 around 190 f4 about 180. K4 around 200-210 and spit mk 9 about the same all no

flaps.


I can only say that if your "The 109 g2 is a total UFO turning far better than a f4" then you and me are not playing the same game.

Check whether you mixed your EAW programm with the IL2FB directory (LOL).

http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/TURN_BF_G2.jpg
http://www.e-335thgreeksquadron.com/Athos/TURN_BF_F4.jpg
(The other graphs for the 109-F2 and Spit are posted in this thread above)
Turn rates:
-------------
Bf109-G2 19,8sec at 1000m at 305Km/h
Bf109-F4 19,5sec at 1000m at 310Km/h
Bf109-F2 19,9sec at 1000m at 300Km/h

So, learn to fly fighter tactics and do not let your subjective feeling force you to make such comments as you do now.


~S~

Turn radius is still smaller at those speeds, trying to use turn vs the plane results in your speed dropping untill it has the advantage, if your try to turn with a plane at those speeds despite a higher turn rate u will overshoot and might a nice target. Im sorry if you cannot realise the g2 is significantly better than the f series in turn in game well you are not playing the same game, many do find the g2 to be a far better turner than the F4, if the spitfire behaved like the g2 there would be a million posts about it being a n00b ub3r plane. Also ive been using the Spitfire mk9 as an example most of the time so why go and show me a spitV vs a f2.

Iam also talking about how the bf109 flies slow not fast because thats what any attempt to turn with it turns into. No turn will be sustained at 300kmh.

And about the flaps no i did not use them, when i tried them they actually had little effect on the speed at which you could turn as well just increased the rate. You need to learn the capabilities of your plane better.