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Darias_Kehl
04-28-2005, 09:31 AM
Scored my first tonnage last night, during patrol 3. Keep getting messages to "Be more aggressive."

Also noticed a few things... first, you don't need to stay in your patrol area quite as rigidly as other games.
Second, under hull magnetic torp detonation is nice, except in ten foot waves.

So - I managed to disable then sink a british C2 with a pair of torps... Then found another merch. several hours later. Once again, my first fish slammed right into the *** end, destroying the screw and rudder. Merch was dead in the water, however I was out of torps, and the seas were too high to make use of the flak gun. Now, the boat I was in at the time had a hull cutter affixed to the bow, so I tried using it. however, I incurred roughly 38% hull integrity failure, however did not see any noticable damage to the vessel I was ramming. I did remain in the area for three days (actually about 325' off the merchant) waiting for it to sink or the weather to clear, however instead I was run off on the fourth day by a closing warship.

I viewed the ram in external submerged view, and it looked to be a good, proper hit. Has anyone had any success with the hull cutters?

Col_Tibbetts
04-28-2005, 09:36 AM
OHHHHHH!

That's what that thing is for. I have always wondered that. I just thought it was put there to make the boat look BAD-ASSSS!

Unfortuantely, according to your account, the devs didn't make its use possible. Any contact your hull makes to another object, no matter how light I have noticed, will result in damage.

And since there is no damage model for our boats you won't see it. Bummer! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

radsov
04-28-2005, 09:37 AM
Your not captain Nemo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Those aren't hull cutters, they are designed to cut anti submarine nets. A U-Boat was never designed for ramming - well apart from the fictional Nautilus http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif (well not technically a u-boat anyway !)

Jim0322
04-28-2005, 09:45 AM
If a ship does not sink with an hour it is not going to happen. Most ships sink within minutes but I have seen a ship I immobilized sink after a couple of hours in extremely heavy seas. It rarely happens though. I once waited fours days hoping for calm weather because I immobilized two ships from a convoy and wanted to finish them off. After fours days I gave up and went home.

Jim

B_F_Pierce
04-28-2005, 09:51 AM
On the contrary, I was messing around at the naval academy and ran out of fish. I know for a fact that ramming can work, but not without you taking some damage too.

radsov
04-28-2005, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by B_F_Pierce:
On the contrary, I was messing around at the naval academy and ran out of fish. I know for a fact that ramming can work, but not without you taking some damage too.

Contrary to what ? I didn't say you couldn't do it, I said that they are not hull cutters, which they are not. I said that no u-boat was designed to ram, which AFAIK it wasn't.

No u-boat captain in there right mind would ram unless it was the smallest of ships... and even then... If you look at how many tons the cargo ships weigh in comparison to a u-bpat you'll see why it's not a good idea.

The only time the order was given to ram in the real war was right at the dieing moments of the third reich and even then it was ignored as stupid.

U-49
04-28-2005, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Darias_Kehl:
I viewed the ram in external submerged view, and it looked to be a good, proper hit. Has anyone had any success with the hull cutters? Hull cutters? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I believe it was designed as an aid against sub nets, not to go ramming hulls of ships.

Darias_Kehl
04-28-2005, 10:12 AM
Well, that's entirely possible... : )

I described them as such because that is what I remember being told they were for... in my far distant youth. Forgive me.

U-49
04-28-2005, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by B_F_Pierce:
On the contrary, I was messing around at the naval academy and ran out of fish. I know for a fact that ramming can work, but not without you taking some damage too. In SH3 ramming will work yes. I don't believe this is being simulated accurately however. A U-boat's hull integrity was of extreme and critical importance. Unless in a hopelessly desperate situation, I can't see a responsible commander compromising it. Could you ram another ship with a U-boat? Absolutely, but it would undoubtedly be a suicide mission in real life. Not just another weapon or strategy as reflected within SH3. Unfortunately, SH3 definitely takes the arcadey approach in this regard.

Nukem_Hicks
04-28-2005, 01:26 PM
The most ironic aspect of the game is that your conning tower does more damage when impacting with a ship than your bow does. I suppose it's another one of the German weapons, uber-periscopes that can rip the bottom out of a DD.

mightyduck100
04-28-2005, 02:00 PM
"Engage the Uber Periscope"

"Jawohl Herr Capitaine"

Nice. But seriously. Ramming a 10000 ton cargo ship with a 300 ton type II sub!! I don't think so.

I could try headbutting an HGV tomorrow see if the SHIII principle applies.

Frederf221
04-28-2005, 03:20 PM
What would happen if you'd try to surface under a merchant (blow ballast)? Wouldn't that have the "DD can opener effect"? Probably more effective, but even more unrealistic.

B_F_Pierce
04-28-2005, 03:28 PM
A U-Boat was never designed for ramming

Contrary to that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Apparently the SHIII subs were, intentionally or not. Seriously though dude, I wasn't trying to be a smart ***. And no, there is no way I'd try it in real life.

U-Bob
04-28-2005, 04:33 PM
U-49 is right. The structure on the bow and the serrated bow were designed to be net cutters.

When U-505 was captured, as they were trying to tow her, her bow hit a destroyer and her dive planes, that were never rigged in, cut the destroyer's hull open. The damage to the DD was bad enough that she had to break off the operation and return to dry dock. Don't know if UBI modeled these kinds of physics into the sim.

Just my 2 cents.

Los!

MissouriMedic
04-28-2005, 05:25 PM
From the book "Iron Coffins: A Personal Account of the German U-Boat Battles of World War II", Introduction, page xvii

"It [U-Boat Headquarters] ordered the commanders of 15 U-boats to attack the vast invasion fleet and, after their torpedos were spent, to destroy a ship by ramming---i.e., by committing suicide."

Seems pretty clear to me. Ramming could effectively destroy an enemy ship, but at deadly cost to the u-boat...

Quirk
04-28-2005, 06:00 PM
First of all, the book Iron Coffins should be taken with a grain of salt. There are many inaccuracies in the book.

The person who allegedly gave the order is Hans-Rudolf R√¬∂sing. He denies ever issuing such an order. He said his order was for the u-boats to perform a major assault, "even at the risk of a collision."

edit:
some good info here: http://www.uboatwar.net/1ufram.htm

No German u-boat commander, besides Werner, believes that D√¬∂nitz issued such an order. R√¬∂sing does admit that someone could have issued it, but it did not come from the major commands.

Even if someone did issue such an order, we shouldn't confuse Nazi desperation with good tactics. The fact that a submarine was ordered to ram, or even if one did ram, does not mean that it would be effective. To my knowledge, not a single ship of the invasion fleet was seriously damaged by a submarine ramming it.

U-49
04-28-2005, 06:25 PM
From the book "Iron Coffins: A Personal Account of the German U-Boat Battles of World War II", Introduction, page xvii

"It [U-Boat Headquarters] ordered the commanders of 15 U-boats to attack the vast invasion fleet and, after their torpedos were spent, to destroy a ship by ramming---i.e., by committing suicide."

Seems pretty clear to me. Ramming could effectively destroy an enemy ship, but at deadly cost to the u-boat... Ahh, the contentious ramming order (http://www.uboatwar.net/1ufram.htm). Iron Coffins just arrived today and I am looking forward to reading this book next. I'm just finishing up Andrew Williams' The Battle of The Atlantic (a great read, btw).

...but I digress.

I often read about the question of authenticity surrounding this as stated within Werner's book.

V-MAN2404
04-28-2005, 07:33 PM
I got ramed by a corvette while in the XXI and the covette ended up getting destroyed by the collision.

hauitsme
04-28-2005, 07:46 PM
Jim0322:
If a ship does not sink with an hour it is not going to happen.
You'd best get some schooling, bub.
Some take seconds, minutes, hours, days, and even weeks!
And I'm not talking about 'game' ships either.



@ whomever may have 'believed' this: Hull cutters? You gotta be kidding! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

walsh2509
04-28-2005, 08:51 PM
I done it to a Trawler and sunk it, but I never got the tonnage for it. I was told that you only get tonnage for Torps and Deck Gun sinkings.

So waste of time doing it!

MissouriMedic
04-28-2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Quirk:
First of all, the book Iron Coffins should be taken with a grain of salt. There are many inaccuracies in the book.

Fair enough... but true or untrue, I would still suspect that the author of the book knows far more about the abilities of these ships than any of us... and the implication here is that he believes that ramming an enemy vessel would destroy it, at the cost of one's own submarine.

This seems like a logical assumption to me.

Given the relative masses and hull strengths, I would assume that the submarine would essentially become a very effective torpedo of sorts (particularly if loaded with fuel or ordinance), but I also assume that such a collision would almost always prove fatal to the relatively lighter vessel.

Are there any documented cases of a submarine ramming another vessel? I've only just begun to read about the history of these ships.

radsov
04-29-2005, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by B_F_Pierce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A U-Boat was never designed for ramming

Contrary to that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Apparently the SHIII subs were, intentionally or not. Seriously though dude, I wasn't trying to be a smart ***. And no, there is no way I'd try it in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Got to agree with you there. The game subs appear to be more effective at ramming.

MissouriMedic: I disagree with you there. I don't think he implies that ramming an enemy vessel would destroy it, for me I feel he thinks the exact opposite, but that's my interpretation.

With the "Logical assumption" line, do you mean logical to assume it would sink the vessel ? or logical to assume that's what he thought ? If the prior then again I disagree, even if fully loaded with fuel and bow torpedo's. The fuel was diesel and that does not combust very easily, especially in the cold Atlantic. Try throwing a lit match into a tub of diesel, you'll be quite safe. The torpedo's possibly could explode, but I wouldn't guarantee it. If they did then you would have a chance of target destruction, but then why Ram ? Just fire a torpedo.

I'm not aware of any u-boats ramming. Although they were rammed occasionally. The Destroyer Hesperus did so and sank the boat (U357) but was damaged badly and out of commission for some time. The admiralty from then on discouraged u-boat ramming. Destroyers were light nimble ships which it is possible that if a u-boat rammed them they would be sunk, however the destroyer would have to be dead in the water for this to happen as they could out manoeuvre the u-boat. Attacking larger less nimble prey would be easier but would almost certainly result in the u-boats destruction, not a good use of a hi-tech resource.