PDA

View Full Version : The cobra maneuver



zugfuhrer
11-15-2006, 03:01 PM
At youtube there are many clips on the cobra maneuver. As far as I know only russian fighters can do this, at least show that they can do it on airshows.

Does this maneuver tell anything about flight-performance and aerodynamics?

Are there any anglo/french/american a/c:s that can do this trick?

HuninMunin
11-15-2006, 03:12 PM
It tells that these aircraft are able to remain stable within extreme AoAs; wich tells you more about the power of FBW then the power of the airplanes.
The cobra demands powerfull engines so, wich in no doubt are common in the new generation of Russian fighters.

I would think that maybe the Taifun or Raptor could compete.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

----------------------------------
.....he was seeking that one moment...the moment in wich all his life would crumble under the bright clearness of his mind.....where in a second everything would be lost or won.
Clearness in the last moment - The warrior's only hope and dream
----------------------------------

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/633/sigvp0.jpg

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix
Servant of Wotan and Tyr
True knight of the Endlich-Thread

berg417448
11-15-2006, 03:20 PM
not the cobra but still interesting:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5991785941573959437&q=f-22&hl=en

berg417448
11-15-2006, 03:21 PM
One more video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4306529957288052978&q=f-22&hl=en

HuninMunin
11-15-2006, 03:23 PM
See: PtW > 1

Just like the Lerche. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

----------------------------------
.....he was seeking that one moment...the moment in wich all his life would crumble under the bright clearness of his mind.....where in a second everything would be lost or won.
Clearness in the last moment - The warrior's only hope and dream
----------------------------------

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/633/sigvp0.jpg

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix
Servant of Wotan and Tyr
True knight of the Endlich-Thread

p1ngu666
11-15-2006, 03:28 PM
vector thrust ftw http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666/spitfiresig.jpg

Bremspropeller
11-15-2006, 03:34 PM
The Tomcat could do the cobra long before the Flanker was even drawn on the boards http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
It didn't go through 90 degs but it was past 70 or 80 degs.

The F-22 will do the same stunt.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2369/toryusig4me.jpg

StG2_Schlachter
11-15-2006, 03:58 PM
Too bad this little plane will never see action

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GhonVYFIiP0<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.stg2immelmann.de/pics/stg2.jpg

Lunix
11-15-2006, 04:12 PM
It means the aircraft is inherently unstable and a fly by wire system is necessary. Instability is important for maneuverability and can be a desirable characteristic in a fighter aircraft. I always think of the 109 or P39 in this regard for some reason.

The cobra is pretty neat but you should check out the newer flankers with thrust vectoring. The SU35 and 37 do stuff I can barely describe.

Chuck_Older
11-15-2006, 04:31 PM
sorry, can't delete<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/Jimmychamp.jpg
Flower of Scotland, will we see your like again?

waffen-79
11-15-2006, 04:33 PM
Sukhoi-Mikoyan FTW, Be sure! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.hrservices.com.mx/signature.jpg
You need blokes like me to fly Blue side!
Banning Planes OnLine? NOT COOL, M'KAY?

TX-EcoDragon
11-15-2006, 04:58 PM
Basically anything that has sufficient power to weight and pitch authority either by way of vectored thrust, and/or a combination of pilot skill, aft CG, and large control surfaces can do the Cobra. It certainly isn't limited to fighters, higher powered piston engine aerobatic aircraft can do it, and the only thing fly-by-wire has to do with the cobra is that it must be disabled in order to perform the maneuver. Originally the soviet aircraft could do it only after disengaging the FBW system because the pilot must induce a very high pitch rate that far exceeds critical angle of attack which FBW normally wouldn't allow the pilot to do.

Jurgis Kairys loves to do Cobras in his SU-31 and Juka, you can find videos of him doing them without too much trouble.

http://mirrorvector.ch/hvoltige/videos/cobra.mpg

Svetlana does a nice descending harrier into a hover which is basically a prolonged cobra:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hSiBFCfqhnM

You can get the maneuver to either recover nose down as in seen in these videos, or by continuing to pull throughout the vertical as we first saw the Soviet jets do it. . .the maneuver does look a little different with the lighter aircraft which don't plow through the air quite as linearly, but it's still the same maneuver.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

S!
TX-EcoDragon
http://www.txsquadron.com/

Team Raven
http://www.waynehandley.com

Member-Webmaster-IAC ch.38
http://www.iac38.org/


ftp://69.56.198.2/Full%20Scale%20Flying/Lisas%20pics/melpassdipsm.jpg

jarink
11-15-2006, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
The Tomcat could do the cobra long before the Flanker was even drawn on the boards http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
It didn't go through 90 degs but it was past 70 or 80 degs.

The F-22 will do the same stunt.

Going past 90 degs is what defines the Cobra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev's_Cobra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev%22s_Cobra)

A clip of an F-22 doing a Cobra:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4306529957288052978<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

My PF movies:Aluminum Eagle (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Aluminum_Eagle/OneVisionLg.zip), Fire and Rain (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Fire_and_Rain/Fire_and_Rain.zip) Snowbirds (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Snowbirds/Snowbirds.zip)and Crew 22 (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Crew_22/Crew22.zip)

http://home.grics.net/jrink/signature.jpg

WB_Outlaw
11-16-2006, 09:11 AM
From what I've read, it also requires an engine inlet design that operates well at the sustained low speed and high angle of attack the Cobra maneuver requires.

IIRC, the F-15 is probably aerodynamically capable but the chance of engine flameouts due to compressor stalls is too high to risk it.

When you consider performance per dollar spent, no one beats the Russian engineers.

--Outlaw.

CD_kp84yb
11-16-2006, 10:06 AM
hmmmmm

http://www.flymig.com/packages/Su-27.flight.htm


something for a birthdaypresent????????????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Fifth_Columnist
11-16-2006, 11:27 AM
Basically anything that has sufficient power to weight and pitch authority either by way of vectored thrust, and/or a combination of pilot skill, aft CG, and large control surfaces can do the Cobra. It certainly isn't limited to fighters, higher powered piston engine aerobatic aircraft can do it, and the only thing fly-by-wire has to do with the cobra is that it must be disabled in order to perform the maneuver. Originally the soviet aircraft could do it only after disengaging the FBW system because the pilot must induce a very high pitch rate that far exceeds critical angle of attack which FBW normally wouldn't allow the pilot to do.

I tried for days to do the cobra in lock-on and seem to recall never getting the huge AOA needed, I wonder if you can disable the FBW in that game?? although lack of pilot skill I am sure was the main problem http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


"One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." - Hunter S. Thompson

v00d00_1234
11-16-2006, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Fifth_Columnist:
I tried for days to do the cobra in lock-on and seem to recall never getting the huge AOA needed, I wonder if you can disable the FBW in that game?? although lack of pilot skill I am sure was the main problem http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I believe it is possible in LockOn, at least in this video they seem to pull off some cobras. But then again, they're doing things I almost can't believe to be possible with this game...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MFlNH8bY8Q

HuninMunin
11-16-2006, 12:52 PM
The trick in Lomac is that you have to disable the FBWs AoA limitation that prevents you from overstressing and stalling normaly.
You do that pressing "k" and pull back the stick; nothing hard about it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

----------------------------------
.....he was seeking that one moment...the moment in wich all his life would crumble under the bright clearness of his mind.....where in a second everything would be lost or won.
Clearness in the last moment - The warrior's only hope and dream
----------------------------------

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/633/sigvp0.jpg

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix
Servant of Wotan and Tyr
True knight of the Endlich-Thread

LStarosta
11-16-2006, 12:58 PM
You know what else Russian aircraft do at airshows...

http://www.nada.kth.se/~ayt/pictures/mig29-crash.gif

pz<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5310/tagjimmyssw1.jpg

HuninMunin
11-16-2006, 01:13 PM
Ain't funny<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

----------------------------------
.....he was seeking that one moment...the moment in wich all his life would crumble under the bright clearness of his mind.....where in a second everything would be lost or won.
Clearness in the last moment - The warrior's only hope and dream
----------------------------------

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/633/sigvp0.jpg

Simon "Hunin" Phoenix
Servant of Wotan and Tyr
True knight of the Endlich-Thread

LStarosta
11-16-2006, 01:14 PM
I guess the chute is kinda low.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5310/tagjimmyssw1.jpg

berg417448
11-16-2006, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
You know what else Russian aircraft do at airshows...

http://www.nada.kth.se/~ayt/pictures/mig29-crash.gif

pz

We can do it too:

http://sitrep.us/files/F-16%20eject.jpg

LStarosta
11-16-2006, 01:17 PM
BS

You are Uzbek photoshop propagandist.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5310/tagjimmyssw1.jpg

TX-EcoDragon
11-16-2006, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Fifth_Columnist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Basically anything that has sufficient power to weight and pitch authority either by way of vectored thrust, and/or a combination of pilot skill, aft CG, and large control surfaces can do the Cobra. It certainly isn't limited to fighters, higher powered piston engine aerobatic aircraft can do it, and the only thing fly-by-wire has to do with the cobra is that it must be disabled in order to perform the maneuver. Originally the soviet aircraft could do it only after disengaging the FBW system because the pilot must induce a very high pitch rate that far exceeds critical angle of attack which FBW normally wouldn't allow the pilot to do.

I tried for days to do the cobra in lock-on and seem to recall never getting the huge AOA needed, I wonder if you can disable the FBW in that game?? although lack of pilot skill I am sure was the main problem http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly it's a scripted feature of Lock-On. Simply press k then pull back a little and up it goes in nice scripted fashion. It still looks sorta cool, but the end of the figure has a really abrupt hard stop that reminds most anyone watching it's a script.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

S!
TX-EcoDragon
http://www.txsquadron.com/

Team Raven
http://www.waynehandley.com

Member-Webmaster-IAC ch.38
http://www.iac38.org/


ftp://69.56.198.2/Full%20Scale%20Flying/Lisas%20pics/melpassdipsm.jpg

SlickStick
11-16-2006, 02:01 PM
Cobra maneuver, eh?!? The troops over at G.I. Joe are NOT going to be happy about this! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________________________
????????k??t????k??? ????2006

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/8847/tsigspitixcw6cq.jpg
Coming Soon to a Full Six near you...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Track Library (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1171010994)

Ugly_Kid
11-16-2006, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Lunix:
It means the aircraft is inherently unstable and a fly by wire system is necessary. Instability is important for maneuverability and can be a desirable characteristic in a fighter aircraft. I always think of the 109 or P39 in this regard for some reason.

Negative, FBW is no pre-requisite for Cobras - in fact the first Mig-29s that demonstrated it in the west had no such luxury - 29 is conventionally stable, BTW.

It is said that it has a merit of changing the closure speed radically and thus help in breaking a lock. Somewhere there earlier when Cobra was something new I heard of F-18 that tried to repeat it in Italy and augered in...(go and figure) I've yet to see a western alt

MEGILE
11-16-2006, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:

It is said that it has a merit of changing the closure speed radically and thus help in breaking a lock.

Theoretically possible, tactically suicidal.
AFAIK the Flankers and Fulcrums can only perform the cobra at low alt, bingo fuel and no external ordinance.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8656/closter08ie6.jpg
YouTube Quote of the week - hey man, **** you because that dog is mad cute.

Ugly_Kid
11-16-2006, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Theoretically possible, tactically suicidal.
AFAIK the Flankers and Fulcrums can only perform the cobra at low alt, bingo fuel and no external ordinance.

Western counterparts who are not able to do it even without ordnance and low alt and bingo fuel have quite a few explanations why it is rubbish and so on...The bottomline for me is still that mig-29, which is still conventionally stable and by far not the state of the art avionics, non FBW, can do aerodynamically and from controls something that we in the west can't, from engineering POV I am able to respect that.

I'd like to see F-anything or Eurofighter put up a tail-slide and start straight up on its own tracks - thrust to weight ratio is there but is it perhaps something else that is not there?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

HayateAce
11-16-2006, 09:22 PM
Cute move, completely worthless.

Splash Mig29.

http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/clmf/images/fa18winder1.JPG <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://aerofiles.com/lock-p38j.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sloganizer.net/en/image,Luftwhiners,black,white.png (http://www.sloganizer.net/en/)

SkyChimp
11-16-2006, 09:38 PM
Agreed, cute move, no tactical value. The nonsense about being able to use the manuever to get a tactical advantage, or a missile lock, is just that, nonsense. The concentration it takes to perform the manuever negates the ability to concentrate on getting a lock or firing weapons. And if you have to place your plane into that attitude to get a lock, something has already gone wrong.

I've talked to a large number of F-15s pilots, and now some F-22 pilots, all agree its an airshow stunt. And the reason you don't see the F-15 performing such manuevers isn't because it isn't capable, it is because the F-15 is expensive and the USAF generals that have to approve airshow stunts hesitate to allow dangerous manuevers that can wreck tax-payer owned planes. Russians don't seem to care, even when they cause carnage.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/colorchimp.jpg

"Hammer the American hard enough and you forge the best weapon in the world."
Captain Simeon Ecuyer during the siege of Fort Pitt

BoCfuss
11-16-2006, 10:04 PM
Come on chimp leave the mig/su lovers alone, its the one thing they have, Cobra smack.

Isn't it better to have a plane that handles better at high speeds? Isn't that what counts? Low speed fights in jets means someone is an idiot.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Chuck Norris originally appeared in the "Street Fighter II" video game, but was removed by Beta Testers because every button caused him to do a roundhouse kick. When asked bout this "glitch," Norris replied, "That's no glitch."

GAU-8
11-16-2006, 10:27 PM
i little off track, but i remember seeing a video about a "super?" F-16 ...which was going thru new wing designs, a few years ago. in teh clip, the F-16 going into a controlled flat spin (or something very close to it)and could track/ lock on to the aircraft circling AROUND it. just pointed the nose at it and slung it around, thru probably 4 or 6 complete rotations. now the F-16 was falling, so in order for the trick to work the target aircraft had to be in a slight dive while going around in a circle, but none the less still pretty cool.

berg417448
11-16-2006, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by BoCfuss:
Come on chimp leave the mig/su lovers alone, its the one thing they have, Cobra smack.

Isn't it better to have a plane that handles better at high speeds? Isn't that what counts? Low speed fights in jets means someone is an idiot.

Just today someone sent me a link to a video of F-16s in mock combat with German MiG-29s. I found it interesting that many times the HUD display showed a speed of only 170-180-190 knots as the F-16 brought guns to bear on the MiG. I never realized that they sometimes got that slow.

Ugly_Kid
11-16-2006, 11:12 PM
LOL could do it if we wanted - just don't want to risk it - well, anyway it's not at all that important...sounds like a kid who's the only one in the sport's class not jumping from the 5 m tower into the water.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

HellToupee
11-16-2006, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by BoCfuss:
Come on chimp leave the mig/su lovers alone, its the one thing they have, Cobra smack.

Isn't it better to have a plane that handles better at high speeds? Isn't that what counts? Low speed fights in jets means someone is an idiot.

simply because the pilot can only handle so much, most jets can already do manovers at high speed too much for the pilot, so theres ither lower speeds or pilotless planes to improve on.

LStarosta
11-17-2006, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by GAU-8:
i little off track, but i remember seeing a video about a "super?" F-16 ...which was going thru new wing designs, a few years ago. in teh clip, the F-16 going into a controlled flat spin (or something very close to it)and could track/ lock on to the aircraft circling AROUND it. just pointed the nose at it and slung it around, thru probably 4 or 6 complete rotations. now the F-16 was falling, so in order for the trick to work the target aircraft had to be in a slight dive while going around in a circle, but none the less still pretty cool.

Latest F-16s have helmet targetting systems.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5310/tagjimmyssw1.jpg

whiteladder
11-17-2006, 09:32 AM
Too bad this little plane will never see action

True, but if the UK pull out of the JSF it may be critical for the future of British naval aviation.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5248/whiteladder4ws6pf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

robban75
11-17-2006, 10:27 AM
There's a video showing the SK35C Draken doing the cobra. Quite impressive for a 50 year old airplane.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/JG26-4.jpg

"The Dora 9 was one of the finest piston-engine fighters I have ever flown; it ranks among my top five with the Spitfire XIV, the Grumman Bearcat, the Hawker Sea Fury and the North American P-51D Mustang IV." Captain Eric Brown, WW2 FAA fighter pilot and test pilot.

http://www.bellum.nu/

Grendel-B
11-17-2006, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
AFAIK the Flankers and Fulcrums can only perform the cobra at low alt, bingo fuel and no external ordinance.

Tell that to the Flanker crew and the couple tens of thousands of people in an airshow in France/UK, when the Russians put full external fuel tanks and missiles to their SU-27 and went on to perform a full aerobatics routine with complete Cobra maneuvers, after the yankees claimed the same.

MiGs/Suhois can do Cobras at will even in full load.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

VirtuaaliLentoLaivue 32
http://www.llv32.org/

Finnish Virtual Pilots Association aviation history articles:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/

Immermann
11-17-2006, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
There's a video showing the SK35C Draken doing the cobra. Quite impressive for a 50 year old airplane.

Have a link?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, might be happy."

Bremspropeller
11-17-2006, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Just today someone sent me a link to a video of F-16s in mock combat with German MiG-29s. I found it interesting that many times the HUD display showed a speed of only 170-180-190 knots as the F-16 brought guns to bear on the MiG. I never realized that they sometimes got that slow.

I've also seen that tape. Problem of the tape: it doesn't show that the Viper that belongs to the HUD has most propably already eaten multiple AA-11 hits.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2369/toryusig4me.jpg

berg417448
11-17-2006, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
Just today someone sent me a link to a video of F-16s in mock combat with German MiG-29s. I found it interesting that many times the HUD display showed a speed of only 170-180-190 knots as the F-16 brought guns to bear on the MiG. I never realized that they sometimes got that slow.

I've also seen that tape. Problem of the tape: it doesn't show that the Viper that belongs to the HUD has most propably already eaten multiple AA-11 hits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah...I was hoping the video would include shots from the MiG's HUD as well. no luck.

MEGILE
11-17-2006, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:


I'd like to see F-anything or Eurofighter put up a tail-slide and start straight up on its own tracks - thrust to weight ratio is there but is it perhaps something else that is not there?

I never rubbished the Cobra.. it's a cool move, and shows the flankers and fulcrums have excellent abilities at high AoA.

What I am saying is, a Cobra is useless when you're at 40,000 ft merging with over 1,000 knotts of closure. Anything which bleeds your energy so much is just asking for trouble... you're gonna be behind the power curve, loss of situational awareness, and hand your enemy the win.

However... I have seen claims before that western figherts can do cobras, but apart from the F-22 I've never seen any do anything close.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7683/starostauc4.jpg
If you see this man.... it's probably too late
Oleg - I was dreaming to make Meteor, but third party didn't make it finally (left unfinished)

jarink
11-17-2006, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by GAU-8:
i little off track, but i remember seeing a video about a "super?" F-16 ...which was going thru new wing designs, a few years ago. in teh clip, the F-16 going into a controlled flat spin (or something very close to it)and could track/ lock on to the aircraft circling AROUND it. just pointed the nose at it and slung it around, thru probably 4 or 6 complete rotations. now the F-16 was falling, so in order for the trick to work the target aircraft had to be in a slight dive while going around in a circle, but none the less still pretty cool.

It's the F-16 AFTI (Advanced Fighter Technology Integration).


During the first phase of the AFTI/F-16 program, which began in 1983, the aircraft demonstrated voice-actuated commands, helmet-mounted sights, flat turns, and <span class="ev_code_yellow">selective fuselage pointing</span> using forward-mounted canards and a triplex digital flight control computer system.

http://www1.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-16AFTI/Small/EC89-0016-20.jpg

The Cobra doesn't seem all that useful of a manuver by itself, unless you're trying to shoot someone right above you. Off-bore targeting IS very useful in combat, especially when using guns. It just isn't as pretty in an airshow. That's one reason why the Russians have gone with 2D thrust vectoring - it can be used to slew the plane in virtually any direction while maintaining a (fairly) steady line of flight.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

My PF movies:Aluminum Eagle (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Aluminum_Eagle/OneVisionLg.zip), Fire and Rain (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Fire_and_Rain/Fire_and_Rain.zip) Snowbirds (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Snowbirds/Snowbirds.zip)and Crew 22 (http://files.netwings.org/files/fb_videos/Crew_22/Crew22.zip)

http://home.grics.net/jrink/signature.jpg

Liberator_13th
11-17-2006, 02:14 PM
I have witnessed the F-22 doing something very similar to the cobra at the Langley air show here in Virginia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYCG5eCN-d8

Go to 1:00 on the video and see. I was there.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Redguys Air Racing Team
Member A2
www.simairracing.com (http://www.simairracing.com)

"The fastest pilots of the online world..."

LStarosta
11-17-2006, 02:21 PM
Three words:

Angle of Attack.

That right there isn't anything close to being a cobra.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5310/tagjimmyssw1.jpg

Viper2005_
11-17-2006, 04:29 PM
I have it on good authority that F-15 can pull lots of alpha if you really want it to.

The Lightning could probably do similarly stupid things; there are lots of pics of it doing its magical "rotation" into the climb which show rather high alphas.

As for the tactical utility of the cobra, two words:

Archer Shot

Given that both Su-27 and MiG-29 have a decent t:w the chances are that they can pull a cobra for a shot at the merge, then apply reheat to get their energy back in case the missile missed. Meanwhile fighters reliant upon conventional turns are still 90?? or more angle off at ever increasing range.

Now, AMRAAM will cover a multitude of sins if the ROE allow it to be used properly, but even so, I can see the cobra being rather a nice trick.

Of course, F-22 + AIM-9X confers a similar capability. But heaven help you if you depart!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSOn61nXbjU

MEGILE
11-17-2006, 06:05 PM
Nice ... I assume that was the FBW auto-recovery?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7683/starostauc4.jpg
If you see this man.... it's probably too late
Oleg - I was dreaming to make Meteor, but third party didn't make it finally (left unfinished)

Badsight-
11-17-2006, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
I have it on good authority that F-15 can pull lots of alpha if you really want it to.

The Lightning could probably do similarly stupid things; there are lots of pics of it doing its magical "rotation" into the climb which show rather high alphas.

As for the tactical utility of the cobra, two words:

Archer Shot

Given that both Su-27 and MiG-29 have a decent t:w the chances are that they can pull a cobra for a shot at the merge, then apply reheat to get their energy back in case the missile missed. Meanwhile fighters reliant upon conventional turns are still 90?? or more angle off at ever increasing range.

Now, AMRAAM will cover a multitude of sins if the ROE allow it to be used properly, but even so, I can see the cobra being rather a nice trick.

Of course, F-22 + AIM-9X confers a similar capability. But heaven help you if you depart!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSOn61nXbjU despite having been a Viper driver you are incorrect . the ex-spurt has already spoken


Originally posted by Hayatedork:
cute move , completely worthless

HellToupee
11-17-2006, 09:07 PM
found the cobra very useful in lockon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

robban75
11-18-2006, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Immermann:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:
There's a video showing the SK35C Draken doing the cobra. Quite impressive for a 50 year old airplane.

Have a link? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afraid not. A friend of mine has the movie, it's on VHS. I think it might be this one http://www.teamm.se/product.asp?product=47&sub=1&page=1 but I'm not sure. I'll have to ask him.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/JG26-4.jpg

"The Dora 9 was one of the finest piston-engine fighters I have ever flown; it ranks among my top five with the Spitfire XIV, the Grumman Bearcat, the Hawker Sea Fury and the North American P-51D Mustang IV." Captain Eric Brown, WW2 FAA fighter pilot and test pilot.

http://www.bellum.nu/

MadBadVlad
11-18-2006, 07:44 AM
I am sure I saw a Sepecat Jaguar GR3 perform this manoeuvre at a local airshow back in 2002. I distinctly remember moving away from the flightline to have a look at some military vehicles part way through the show when there was a lull in activity. Then there was a huge roar behind me and I looked round to see this military jet sedately cruising down the runway with its nose in the air and tail scraping the concrete. As the Sepecat Jaguar GR3 was the only jet fighter on the line up for the show I have to assume that is what I saw.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/markwalters/Miscellaneous/Madbadvlad2.jpg

Ugly_Kid
11-18-2006, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
What I am saying is, a Cobra is useless when you're at 40,000 ft merging with over 1,000 knotts of closure. Anything which bleeds your energy so much is just asking for trouble... you're gonna be behind the power curve, loss of situational awareness, and hand your enemy the win.


Except, that you do it against a radar lock by radically changing your closure speed and that would be in BVR so it is not that you'll be in a closed intensive DF the next second left without E...You'll probably do it when the missible is already well on the way and if you don't do something you really hand your enemy the victory...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

majnos64
11-18-2006, 08:14 AM
Jurgis Kairys loves to do Cobras in his SU-31 and Juka, you can find videos of him doing them without too much trouble.

http://mirrorvector.ch/hvoltige/videos/cobra.mpg



This low level cobra is flown by Peter Besenyi.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"He,who has braver heart, more cold and full of foreseeing courage, which is born from believe in success and in righteousness of things, will smite his opponent." - Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin

majnos64
11-18-2006, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
The trick in Lomac is that you have to disable the FBWs AoA limitation that prevents you from overstressing and stalling normaly.
You do that pressing "k" and pull back the stick; nothing hard about it.

However in LOMAC it isn't flown by pilot it is scripted move. It's very difficult to calculate this kind of aerodynamics realtime on PC.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"He,who has braver heart, more cold and full of foreseeing courage, which is born from believe in success and in righteousness of things, will smite his opponent." - Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin

majnos64
11-18-2006, 08:36 AM
Pugachev Cobra was firstly made at Paris Airshow 1989. This maneuvre was done in decent dive(5-10 deg) doing 135 deg of AoA. And it was made flying Su-27. If you compare Pugachev Cobra to F-22 braking maneuvre you can see F-22 is flying level all the time. Second difference it is done pretty high in the video it is about 500m? That is the difference. However Russians have TV engines and they are doing supercobra now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Looks impressive. Su-37 is said to have supermaneuvring capability it means post stall maneuvring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUxabw562s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GdfnTLKcvM&mode=related&search=

Cobra shows only one thing stability of airflow in high AoA(there are better maneuvers to test engine inlet capability). I think Su-27 has one of the best aerodynamics to this day. Only F-22 is IMO better designed it's newer design. However there is no match for F-22 in mil aviation. 350M$ assure that.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"He,who has braver heart, more cold and full of foreseeing courage, which is born from believe in success and in righteousness of things, will smite his opponent." - Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin

LStarosta
11-18-2006, 08:39 AM
I heard stall hopping on full blower is the aeronautical equivalent to bending over to get a sidewinder up the ***.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________________

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5310/tagjimmyssw1.jpg

Ugly_Kid
11-18-2006, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by majnos64:
Cobra shows only one thing stability of airflow in high AoA(there are better maneuvers to test engine inlet capability). I think Su-27 has one of the best aerodynamics to this day. Only F-22 is IMO better designed it's newer design. However there is no match for F-22 in mil aviation. 350M$ assure that.

And I am pretty sure that F-22 isn't aerodynamically a match to the latest generation non-stealth fighters. Point here being that the stealth and the required shape for it is a compromise in the aerodynamics. Aerodynamic efficiency and potential isn't a function of radar cross-section, unless one take F-117 to show that it is actually a direct opposite http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

MEGILE
11-18-2006, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:


Except, that you do it against a radar lock by radically changing your closure speed and that would be in BVR so it is not that you'll be in a closed intensive DF the next second left without E...You'll probably do it when the missible is already well on the way and if you don't do something you really hand your enemy the victory...

No sale dude...
performing a cobra when the missle is on its way is absolute suicide... especially since you don't know 100% what guidance the missile has.
SAR, ARM, IR?
A cobra aint gona do squat to an infra-red seaking missile. Hell I doubt it would even make the latest amraams flinch once they go active...and even if they havent, as soon as your recover, the amraam will reaquire lock because the fact you havent moved very far and are still in its scan area.
Besides even if it could, its still a stupid meneuver because the second you show back up on the scope another mssile is inbound.

You know this is a silly discussion.. I haven't even mentioned AWACS, EWS and data link.... and we already covered the Flankers limitations for pulling the cobra.

Cobra has never been a viable BVR tactic, never has never will.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7683/starostauc4.jpg
If you see this man.... it's probably too late
Oleg - I was dreaming to make Meteor, but third party didn't make it finally (left unfinished)

Ugly_Kid
11-18-2006, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
No sale dude...
performing a cobra when the missle is on its way is absolute suicide... especially since you don't know 100% what guidance the missile has.
SAR, ARM, IR?
A cobra aint gona do squat to an infra-red seaking missile. Hell I doubt it would even make the latest amraams flinch once they go active...and even if they havent, as soon as your recover, the amraam will reaquire lock because the fact you havent moved very far and are still in its scan area.
Besides even if it could, its still a stupid meneuver because the second you show back up on the scope another mssile is inbound.

You know this is a silly discussion.. I haven't even mentioned AWACS, EWS and data link.... and we already covered the Flankers limitations for pulling the cobra.

Cobra has never been a viable BVR tactic, never has never will.

Oh but it is possible to know the guidance - you see it is hardly IR if it's coming from a longer distance, is it? The radar guided is sending an active radar signal - whereas IR is a passive - you think ECM worth its price can't distinguish? Not who sent it? Not between airborne radar and ground station? How do you think an incoming missile is detected anyway if not from the seeker?

You covered the Su's limitations? placed by whom? Russians? Oh no, not quite? Your covering was uncovered by Grendel already BTW...

It sure isn't any ??ber manouver to conquer the world but it is still something that they can do and the others can't - so I suppose it leaves only stomping the foot and repeating that it's just for the show.

(Actually wonder all these thrust vectoring experiments - it would just allow further aircraft do useless manouvers like Cobra http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif )<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

Badsight-
11-18-2006, 03:10 PM
there is a good Mig-29 OVT video on youtube

ploughman
11-18-2006, 04:31 PM
The OVT's pretty amazing.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/mig29RIAT2006.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/mig29OVTmanouver.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/clivesanta.png
Dum spiro, spero

majnos64
11-18-2006, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
And I am pretty sure that F-22 isn't aerodynamically a match to the latest generation non-stealth fighters. Point here being that the stealth and the required shape for it is a compromise in the aerodynamics. Aerodynamic efficiency and potential isn't a function of radar cross-section, unless one take F-117 to show that it is actually a direct opposite http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm not an american but at this point I simply cannot agree. Look F-22 has lower drag than russian A/C do better than 4.5 gen like Rafale or Typhoon. It could do cobra-like maneuver and survive Gripen tried this and fall pilot survived. It's somewhere on youtube or patricksaviation. Moreover it can fly at least 1.5M without burner say 120-150kN of thrust(calculating both engines. Weight of A/C is about 25t. So T/W isn't larger than on comparable planes.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"He,who has braver heart, more cold and full of foreseeing courage, which is born from believe in success and in righteousness of things, will smite his opponent." - Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin

majnos64
11-18-2006, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
...especially since you don't know 100% what guidance the missile has.
SAR, ARM, IR?
A cobra aint gona do squat to an infra-red seaking missile. Hell I doubt it would even make the latest amraams flinch once they go active...and even if they havent, as soon as your recover, the amraam will reaquire lock because the fact you havent moved very far and are still in its scan area.
Besides even if it could, its still a stupid meneuver because the second you show back up on the scope another mssile is inbound.

You know this is a silly discussion.. I haven't even mentioned AWACS, EWS and data link.... and we already covered the Flankers limitations for pulling the cobra.

Cobra has never been a viable BVR tactic, never has never will.

1) You don't know about IR guided missile anywayhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
2) Cobra is bad maneuvre for more than 1nm fight you are virtually stopped so every missile will hit you doesn't matter what guidance it has.
3) Datalink ? You are comparing 4.5 gen and 5 gen of aircraft with 4 gen of A/C ? Nonsence. Its like comparison of Bf-109 and F-86.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"He,who has braver heart, more cold and full of foreseeing courage, which is born from believe in success and in righteousness of things, will smite his opponent." - Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin

MEGILE
11-18-2006, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by majnos64:


1) You don't know about IR guided missile anywayhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
2) Cobra is bad maneuvre for more than 1nm fight you are virtually stopped so every missile will hit you doesn't matter what guidance it has.
3) Datalink ? You are comparing 4.5 gen and 5 gen of aircraft with 4 gen of A/C ? Nonsence. Its like comparison of Bf-109 and F-86.

1) If you use the MK1 Eyeball you may surprise yourself
2) Agree 100%
3)Disagree 100%<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7683/starostauc4.jpg
If you see this man.... it's probably too late
Oleg - I was dreaming to make Meteor, but third party didn't make it finally (left unfinished)

robban75
11-19-2006, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by majnos64:
I'm not an american but at this point I simply cannot agree. Look F-22 has lower drag than russian A/C do better than 4.5 gen like Rafale or Typhoon. It could do cobra-like maneuver and survive Gripen tried this and fall pilot survived. It's somewhere on youtube or patricksaviation. Moreover it can fly at least 1.5M without burner say 120-150kN of thrust(calculating both engines. Weight of A/C is about 25t. So T/W isn't larger than on comparable planes.

Oh please, the Gripen crashing in the video is not doing a cobra. The aircraft suffers a FCS malfunction. The cobra manouver should be a walk in the park for a delta canard fighter.

I dont know if the F-22 has lower drag compared to for example the Su-27, but I doubt it. The F-22 reaches high supersonic speed much thanks to its extreme engine power. IIRC the F-22 has similar thrust at military power as the Su-27 has in full burner. The F-22 has the highest T/W ratio compared to any other fighter in the world. Also, weight doesn't have such a high impact on speed as you seem to think. Drag on the other hand does. And a high engine output can solve many drag issues.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/JG26-4.jpg

"The Dora 9 was one of the finest piston-engine fighters I have ever flown; it ranks among my top five with the Spitfire XIV, the Grumman Bearcat, the Hawker Sea Fury and the North American P-51D Mustang IV." Captain Eric Brown, WW2 FAA fighter pilot and test pilot.

http://www.bellum.nu/

MEGILE
11-19-2006, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
The F-22 reaches high supersonic speed much thanks to its extreme engine power.

I read the chief test pilot for the F-22 program said it could outclimb the Eagle... and that's crazy considering the eagle has a T/W ratio in the area of 1.40<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7683/starostauc4.jpg
If you see this man.... it's probably too late
Oleg - I was dreaming to make Meteor, but third party didn't make it finally (left unfinished)

robban75
11-19-2006, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:
The F-22 reaches high supersonic speed much thanks to its extreme engine power.

I read the chief test pilot for the F-22 program said it could outclimb the Eagle... and that's crazy considering the eagle has a T/W ratio in the area of 1.40 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The F-22 has 24,000 pounds more thrust than an F-15! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/robban75/JG26-4.jpg

"The Dora 9 was one of the finest piston-engine fighters I have ever flown; it ranks among my top five with the Spitfire XIV, the Grumman Bearcat, the Hawker Sea Fury and the North American P-51D Mustang IV." Captain Eric Brown, WW2 FAA fighter pilot and test pilot.

http://www.bellum.nu/

majnos64
11-19-2006, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by majnos64:
I'm not an american but at this point I simply cannot agree. Look F-22 has lower drag than russian A/C do better than 4.5 gen like Rafale or Typhoon. It could do cobra-like maneuver and survive Gripen tried this and fall pilot survived. It's somewhere on youtube or patricksaviation. Moreover it can fly at least 1.5M without burner say 120-150kN of thrust(calculating both engines. Weight of A/C is about 25t. So T/W isn't larger than on comparable planes.

Oh please, the Gripen crashing in the video is not doing a cobra. The aircraft suffers a FCS malfunction. The cobra manouver should be a walk in the park for a delta canard fighter.

I dont know if the F-22 has lower drag compared to for example the Su-27, but I doubt it. The F-22 reaches high supersonic speed much thanks to its extreme engine power. IIRC the F-22 has similar thrust at military power as the Su-27 has in full burner. The F-22 has the highest T/W ratio compared to any other fighter in the world. Also, weight doesn't have such a high impact on speed as you seem to think. Drag on the other hand does. And a high engine output can solve many drag issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Because you didn't understand me I must do explanation - to gripen it was joke obviouslyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and now to engines lets calculate
example : F110-GE-129 has dry/wet power 0.6 so I think F-22 has the same ratio.
F-22 weights empty 18t
F-15 weights empty 13t
in my calc I think engine of F-22 has not better dry/wet ratio.
F-22 2xF119-PW-110 has power 310kN(wet)*0.6=186kN
F-15 2?? Pratt & Whitney F100-220 250kN(wet)*0.6=150kN


dry T/W ratio:
F22 186/18=10
F15 150/13=12

Conclusion ? F22 engines are MUCH better in dry than F15's or has better aerodynamics(drag ratings). I think both are possible but aerodynamics seems more probable to me. Maybe it should be calculated with max weight ratings F-15 30t F-22 36t

note: I'm no F-15 expert but data was from wikipedia F-15C maybe F-15E has even better ratings. I think 1.4 T/W is real.
It depends on loading. OK F110-GE-129 are newer than my calc it has 129kN wet(each).

Released news said that F-22 is able to do 2.42M F-15 with new engines is able 2.54M. Thats weird isn't it ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"He,who has braver heart, more cold and full of foreseeing courage, which is born from believe in success and in righteousness of things, will smite his opponent." - Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin

NonWonderDog
11-19-2006, 04:06 PM
It's mostly the engines. The single-crystal superalloy turbine blades in the F119-PW-110 engines allow the highest operating temperature of any gas turbine engine ever built, 3000 ??F.

That adds SIGNIFICANTLY to the maximum dry thrust. The figures I have say 2x28000 lbs dry, 2x35000 lbs wet. If it's really 40,000 lbs empty, that's a T/W ratio of 1.4 without afterburners!

If you were wondering, the low afterburner ratio is due to the low bypass ratio of the engine. In order to operate efficiently at supercruise, the engine needs a high exhaust velocity. That means it needs to make a higher proportion of its thrust from the turbojet core, and thus has a smaller fan (all modern jet fighter engines are turbofans, if only just). Because it bypasses less air, there is less oxygen available for afterburning.


The aerodynamics are supposedly very, very good, however, and from what I've gathered they don't suffer from the stealth requirement. There's a lot more known now about stealth and reverse aerodynamic design than when the F-117 was designed. If it has a lower max speed than an F-15 (which I find suspicious), it's probably entirely due to the low-RCS inlets.

reisen52
11-19-2006, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:Point here being that the stealth and the required shape for it is a compromise in the aerodynamics. Aerodynamic efficiency and potential isn't a function of radar cross-section, unless one take F-117 to show that it is actually a direct opposite http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IIRC the F-117 was designed by a bunch of guys using slide rules with Kelly Johnson's prot??g?? Ben Rich saying "that looks about right".

The F-22 is was designed with Lockheed's institutional memory & some guys with CAD & supercomputers to back them up so I really doubt they gave a lot away in design compromises.

JamesBlonde888
11-19-2006, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
At youtube there are many clips on the cobra maneuver. As far as I know only russian fighters can do this, at least show that they can do it on airshows.

Does this maneuver tell anything about flight-performance and aerodynamics?

Are there any anglo/french/american a/c:s that can do this trick?

I bet Chuck Yeager could do it in anything.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/JamesBlonde/newsig.bmp
3) Shouts 'Bleiben Sie auf K??rs du k??kuk!' when a family member detaches itself from the shopping formation.
http://www.freewebs.com/jamesblonde888/

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination


Die lezte

ploughman
11-20-2006, 04:45 AM
Chuck Yeager Cobra's his bath tub.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/mctomney/clivesanta.png
Dum spiro, spero