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myrrhcedar
01-12-2010, 06:06 AM
Hello everyone,

I started playing Il-2 with the original game and fell in love, then got up to Pacific Fighters before I took a break.

I bought the 1946 collection a while back and let it sit in the box for some reason, I guess busy period in real life, but after playing PF I got the urge to install 1946 finally. The amount of planes is awesome and I was really excited to get back into it, but then...

I once saw a post on this forum about "wobble" being increased at some point/during some update:


Originally posted by DKoor:

Some time ago there was this patch where it was close to impossible to shoot anything with some fighters, they were just yawing (we use term wobble, wobbling) badly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .

It was somewhat corrected but is still present on some types much more than others.
F4U Corsair is notorious for wobbling...

What I do to counter the problem is to give rudder some input but do not let go, another words move rudder all the way to neutral position slowly or airplane nose will be all over the place if you nail it hard.

Once you get a grip on it it will be more or less smooth, but it is hard in the beggining.

Feel free to download some of my tracks in signature link, you will see how my aircraft wobbles from time to time because sometimes you just need speedy corrections even at expense of not being precise.

Now I really know what they were talking about. Some feel fine (p39), others are unbearable (mc.205, f4u). I went directly from PF to 1946 and the "jello" feeling of the planes, and the cartoonish way they look wobbling back and forth on their own center axis as if hanging from a string... combined with the really predictable stalls, I just can't enjoy it. PF feels much better (to me) side-by-side with 1946.

My question is; which update is the post I quoted talking about that implemented the "wobble"? I'd like to have the latest version of Il-2 up to right before the "wobble" patch arrived.

thanks

megalopsuche
01-12-2010, 06:28 AM
I've never tried Il-2 without rudder pedals, and I do not experience the "jello" problem. What sort of input hardware are you using for rudder?

myrrhcedar
01-12-2010, 06:34 AM
Saitek x52 stick + throttle and saitek pro-flight rudder pedals. Once in a while I also play with an xbox 360 controller. I've never had problems with any with il-2 before.

I'll try patching everything up to the latest version when i get home from work and hope that works (since the post I quoted implied that the was *partially* resolved), but if not I'd really like to know what the last version/patch of the game was before those changes were made.

M_Gunz
01-12-2010, 07:16 AM
It doesn't seem to happen to everyone or even all the time. There must be some difference....

Frankthetank36
01-12-2010, 09:51 AM
Never really had this problem but I started playing IL-2 with 1946. Maybe your stick settings are too sensitive or something? Or the plane isn't trimmed out correctly? I did notice that the "ball" in the inclinometer moved all over the place until I started trimming out the rudder constantly and using a less sensitive rudder setting.

Ba5tard5word
01-12-2010, 09:54 AM
a) I think that filtering cuts down on wobbliness from rudder and keeps your nose from swinging back and forth with every touch of the rudder.

b) Some planes are definitely more wobbly than others and difficult to keep the nose straight. The Corsair is probably the worst but the P-40 is too, but less so. I've never noticed the MC-205 doing it much. In any case I used to use an Xbox 360 stick for Il-2 and the Corsair was almost unflyable because it would make the nose wobble constantly and it was hard to aim and get in hits with its guns. I moved up to a Logitech 3D Extreme Pro cheapo stick and the Corsair became a lot more stable and flyable. Haven't tried it out yet with my new CH stick though.

BillSwagger
01-12-2010, 10:29 AM
yes there is a bad "wobble" on some planes but most noticable on the F4U. The tempest does this too.

It has more to do with the way you fly the plane than what inputs or controls you are using. If you keep the movements fluid and fast the F4U can be one of the most powerful planes in the game.

I'm not sure when the wobbles appeared, i've been playing this sim from 1946 on, and the topic of "wobbles" pops up from time to time. I think the newer version of the sim offers a lot more planes, so you might consider just learning to fly with the wobbles.


I have noticed that with the 4.09m patch that the pilot head reacts more to movements. You get lifted out of your seat, or squished into your seat depending on the Gs of the turn. With out 6DoF, it can be a bit hard to shoot over the nose of some planes in a turn, but now that you get squished further into your seat, you are losing that much more sight over the nose.

Try flying the P-51C and make a turn and you will see exactly what i'm talking about. I think that feature needs to be tuned down a bit, my pilot head does not have a slinky for a neck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Bill

berg417448
01-12-2010, 10:34 AM
Interesting that some have the problem more with 1946 than before. For me the problem was worse when I had Pacific Fighters but is much improved with IL2 1946.

thefruitbat
01-12-2010, 10:44 AM
patch 4.02, was resolved fully in patch 4.04.

4.02 was a nightmare for me.

horseback
01-12-2010, 03:52 PM
The introduction of the 'realistic' FMs of the 4.0X patches are what led to the original wobble issues.

Oddly, the 4.01 beta patch that some of us got our grubby little mits on had no 'wobbles' as we understand them now, but for many of us, installing the 4.02 patch led to certain (mostly American and British) aircraft being almost impossible to fly without the nose wandering all over the sky. Certainly, it seemed to me that the 109 was completely unaffected, and the 190 just a little, while most American types had a distinct 'balancing on the head of a pin' feel to them.

Ultimately, a big chunk of the problem was due to the patch installation removing a critical "0" from several of the joystick sensitivity settings in the config file. Things improved when these were put back in, and got better with the next patch.

Still, there were many of the most affected aircraft remaining over sensitive to trim and or power and speed changes, if not as much once the missing zeros were replaced, at least in some peoples' minds.

This was exacerbated by problems with the wing mounted guns' each firing each round at the same microsecond, leading to unrealistic gaps in bursts. Again, this seemed to penalize the Western built fighters more than the Axis or Soviet birds, particularly those firing the US .50 cal HMG.

This was fixed by having half the guns firing on a slightly delayed cycle, although certain aircraft were badly screwed up because instead of every other gun firing at time a and the rest at time b, for some reason these aircraft (primarily US Naval fighters as I recall) had all the guns on one wing firing, and then the guns on the other wing, leading to a spectacular yawing problem when their guns were fired.

You can still feel this slight yawing on aircraft like the Spit Mk V, with the single 20mm cannon on each wing firing at slightly differing times when you pull the trigger.

Although this was hastily repaired, because of earlier problems and harsh words on both sides of the issue, there remain some suspicions about the depiction of some aircraft and their weapons in this sim.

Certain aircraft remain very sensitive to trim changes and because trim inputs are delayed, you will find yourself fighting your stick at times in these birds until the trim is finally applied some seconds after you put them in.

Again, this has affected more western types than the Soviet or German fighters, and is more pronounced in late-war westerners than the types flown in numbers by the Soviets under Lend Lease. This in spite of contemporary descriptions of the late war fighters as being more stable and less trim hungry than the P-40 or P-39.

The most recent patch to the 1946 series seems to have made all the planes I've tried (and I admit that I'm slower to adjust to a new plane than some) a bit more trim sensitive, including the 109F-4 (my mount in my current cmpaign). It's a lot harder to level out in cruise than it used to be, IMHO.

Overall, the wobble issue is more a matter of opinion about relative trim requirements & handling than it is about overall FM or its realism. Some aircraft were more demanding to fly well than others, but there are occasions where it can be argued that the wrong planes are the ones that are harder to fly to their limits.

cheers

horseback

Sillius_Sodus
01-12-2010, 05:19 PM
Oh no! Another "Wobbly Corsair" thread! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

GAAAAAHHHHH! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I remember them fondly........almost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

VW-IceFire
01-12-2010, 05:47 PM
Real aircraft DO wobble... the weird bit in IL-2 seems to be the extent and the duration on some planes and not others without too much of a good reason for why.

Except I think that overall there are so many planes put in at different stages of development that some just have different levels of fidelity than others. On the whole it is amazing that it all works... but there are little details that sometimes seem odd.

Another plane that got weird after the 4.00 flight model upgrade was the Yak series which, no matter which model or what amount of power they have, have this massive amount of torque. So there are issues everywhere...

Tweaking the input settings seems to help the most. I lowered my rudder sensitivity settings until it worked well for me. You may have to experiment for a while too.

R_Target
01-12-2010, 07:07 PM
4.01 was best IMO. 4.02-4.05 swiveling USN planes was a total joke, and was not fixed for over a year.

myrrhcedar
01-12-2010, 07:27 PM
Cool, you guys seem to know what I'm talking about. I expected you to kind of laugh at my "wobbling" problem and just assume I was a total noob. Also, thanks for the big detailed answer horsetrim.

I think an answer I got from another forum also explains it to me and seems to touch on what a lot of you mentioned;


I might be wrong but around 4.01 or 4.02 individual flight models were replaced by a "universal" model that all planes and AI used. some pretty tight handling planes became jello like you mentioned. It's still present in the latest version (4.08 or 4.09), but not as bad as it was for several patches. not nearly

The problem is slightly tamed in 1946 (4.07), but I can see how going straight from pacific fighters to 1946 you found some planes suddenly felt sloppy or generic

It still REALLY annoys me but I've tried never letting anything "snap" back like I did in PF; if you follow every sudden movement with a pointless/slight gradual trim just to keep the plane busy or yaw most of the wobbling will be prevented (it seems like it kicks in as soon as you let the plane "relax" or level out but nearly absent if you just fly like a maniac).

Icefire:



Real aircraft DO wobble... the weird bit in IL-2 seems to be the extent and the duration on some planes and not others without too much of a good reason for why.

That's why it really annoyed me.. the planes affected seem to be some of my favorite planes (f4uc) while others are really mellow. I guess I'll just keep my old PF/FB merge installed if I miss it but also learn to cope with the inconsistent wobbling. Maybe some perverted day I'll acquire a taste for it.

Ba5tard5word
01-12-2010, 09:11 PM
Keep the F4U pointed straight and keep its speed up, it's a big heavy plane and needs to stay steady to keep its speed up.

Also the Thunderbolt is pretty similar--big, heavy, slow to accelerate but has a good top speed, and it wobbles. But it and the Corsair have enough armament that you usually only need one quick shot to get a kill.

jamesblonde1979
01-13-2010, 06:08 AM
I think thrust should lessen the wobble, the greater the thrust the quicker wobble should stabilize.

It is best to line up a shot from some distance in the corsair so you can keep a steady pressure in the elevator and prevent this wobble. I know this elevator pressure isn't always possible, especially on straight 'dead six' shots so try for low deflection shots instead.

I would rather a 10 to 20 degree deflection shot than a 0 degree shot any day.

SeaFireLIV
01-13-2010, 06:38 AM
The wobble issue was a real pain... not for me, but from the firey flames it caused on the forum. I really didn`t see it as a major problem. I still shot aircraft down.

Best of all, it made the AI fly more realistically. Unfortuinately, a couple of patches later, the AI was reduced to being star wars fighters again... at least for a while.

thefruitbat
01-13-2010, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The wobble issue was a real pain... not for me, but from the firey flames it caused on the forum. I really didn`t see it as a major problem. I still shot aircraft down.

Best of all, it made the AI fly more realistically. Unfortuinately, a couple of patches later, the AI was reduced to being star wars fighters again... at least for a while.

hahah still disbeliveing, just cause it didn't affect you.

major_setback
01-13-2010, 09:33 AM
It started the day after my 30th birthday. It never stops http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-13-2010, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The wobble issue was a real pain... not for me, but from the firey flames it caused on the forum. I really didn`t see it as a major problem. I still shot aircraft down.

Best of all, it made the AI fly more realistically. Unfortuinately, a couple of patches later, the AI was reduced to being star wars fighters again... at least for a while.

hahah still disbeliveing, just cause it didn't affect you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

If a car drives fine for me, but everyone else`s cars don`t, well I believe my experience, not others. No matter how much they shout and scream. I don`t change my views to suit the largest shouting crowd when I do not see it so. I will believe that they have a problem with theirs, that`s all.

thefruitbat
01-13-2010, 10:07 AM
ok, explain this, i had the wobbles on my computer, on my friends with different hardware, but same joystick settings, he didn't.

how does that fit it with your 'facts' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

oops!

SeaFireLIV
01-13-2010, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
ok, explain this, i had the wobbles on my computer, on my friends with different hardware, but same joystick settings, he didn't.

how does that fit it with your 'facts' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

You`re being incoherent now.

thefruitbat
01-13-2010, 10:11 AM
hahahha, thats the best you've got...

Blindman-
01-13-2010, 12:08 PM
I am not sure if it is the 4.09 patch or what but I noticed an increase in the amount of "wooble" right about the time I upgraded and started using 4.09 (with the HSFX modpack). Perhaps this is more obvious to me because I fly the Corsair and Thunderbolt allot. I haven't made any changes to my sensitivity settings in months so that is not it (however, I will be trying new settings soon to counter this increase in "wooble".

It would be interesting to know what aircraft are being used by those that have "wooble" problems and for those that don't. Personally I see the whole sim/game as showing favoritism toward certain aircraft/countries and disfavor toward others and I have just “chalked up” this whole “wooble” issue to this disfavor. I know that many of you will howl at this but since we are all being honest here I hope I can share this long held opinion.

M_Gunz
01-13-2010, 12:18 PM
In the beginning it was "nose bob" which of course was against LW planes. If you don't trim it can still be a problem.

SeaFireLIV
01-13-2010, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Blindman-:
I am not sure if it is the 4.09 patch or what but I noticed an increase in the amount of "wooble" right about the time I upgraded and started using 4.09 (with the HSFX modpack). Perhaps this is more obvious to me because I fly the Corsair and Thunderbolt allot. I haven't made any changes to my sensitivity settings in months so that is not it (however, I will be trying new settings soon to counter this increase in "wooble".

It would be interesting to know what aircraft are being used by those that have "wooble" problems and for those that don't. Personally I see the whole sim/game as showing favoritism toward certain aircraft/countries and disfavor toward others and I have just “chalked up” this whole “wooble” issue to this disfavor. I know that many of you will howl at this but since we are all being honest here I hope I can share this long held opinion.


It`s possible that certain aircraft had the `wobble` and certain others did not on the allied side. I do tend to stick with only 2-3 aircraft at any one time and the corsair wasn`t one of them. Personally, I think it`s a combination of things (joystick settings, IL2 config, even hardware, etc) and, in my case, I got the good part of all combinations.

wolf-striked
01-13-2010, 02:42 PM
Sadly I quit IL2 because of the wobbles.For me it was a severe left/right yaw when nosing up or down rapidly.Might be realistic to yaw(slightly)on changes in plane attitude but then the plane would yaw back and forth as if it was on a pendulum which isn't.

Its very noticeable when you do an air start when the instant you are placed in cockpit it yaws back and forth a few times.

horseback
01-13-2010, 03:19 PM
Airstarts are a different issue for me; the Player enters and airstart at very low speeds and in neutral trim settings. It takes a while to recover in most aircraft and you end up losing a few hundred meters of alt before you get your speed and trim sorted out. It helps to make a conscious choice to put the nose down & hold the wings level in order to pick up a little speed right away.

Biplanes and the really older & slower types are least affected, higher performing late war types most affected.

M_Gunz' description of the wobble as nose bob is actually more accurate than what I wrote of the original 'wobble effect'; on most aircraft the nose did seem to bob around and sort of 'search' for the direction you were trying to get it to go. As I said, that was mostly the result of some patch downloads to delete a zero from the joystick sensitivity lines in the config files.

I downloaded good four or five 4.02 patches from several different sources back then and never got a 'good' one--I had to go into the config file to add the missing zeroes manually on both of my rigs.

Horsetrim?!?!?!?!?

cheers

horseback

BillSwagger
01-13-2010, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:


It`s possible that certain aircraft had the `wobble` and certain others did not on the allied side. I do tend to stick with only 2-3 aircraft at any one time and the corsair wasn`t one of them. Personally, I think it`s a combination of things (joystick settings, IL2 config, even hardware, etc) and, in my case, I got the good part of all combinations.

Please share your winning combination.

The wobble is in the yaw axis and occurs with sudden changes with elevators. i think its part of the sim to simulate a heavier weight of the aircraft. This is more apparent with the F4U and Tempest.

The F4U had a nasty stall feature in real life, but to say it wobbled as it does well above stall speeds is really only an in game feature. Is it biased? Well it wouldn't surprise me given a handful of other inconsistencies but i don't want to become between others and their beloved sim.

The other explanation is that some planes have a different degree of modeling which in some ways makes them more realistic, but since not every plane was given the same attention to detail then these realistic features end up being handicaps.
I still claim there is nothing realistic about the wobble and the F4U or tempest, but it appears to be there to simulate weight.

Ba5tard5word
01-13-2010, 03:33 PM
Doesn't the slip ball have to do with it too?


And I've never noticed a particular wobble problem with the Tempest, it's a great plane to fly if you keep your speed up.

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 03:33 PM
I think most of the wobble is due to gyroscopic precession. The F4U has a big heavy prop, so you'd expect this to be pronounced.

The later additions to IL-2 may well be more accurately modelled than early ones, too.

thefruitbat
01-13-2010, 03:59 PM
For me, since 4.04 no wobbles really, patch 4.02 yes, 4.03 partialy fixed it, and a week later 4.04 came out, since then never had a problem.

During 4.02 i had to add massive filtering to my settings, the one and only time i've ever used filtering in my setup.

M_Gunz
01-13-2010, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
The wobble is in the yaw axis and occurs with sudden changes with elevators.

You seem to be describing gyroscopic precession. How wide is the wobble in say sighting rings?

BillSwagger
01-13-2010, 05:39 PM
It can be as wide as wing tip to wing tip at 100m.

It seems to be further induced in turns because of adverse yaw. If the enemy aircaft changes direction, it can be a greater challenge to keep the site balanced because the plane will rock back and forth what would normally be a well concentrated burst is now spread around.

Have you ever had your stabilizer shot off and still flown. It is a very similar effect, but in the case of the F4U, i would think that the stablizer, ( i wonder why its called a stablizer, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) would help counter these effects.


Bill

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 06:01 PM
It definitely seems to be gyroscopic precession, or at least some kind of propeller-related issue. Try a F4U out on the QMB at a decent cruise speed to get a feel for the 'wobble', then switch the engine off and dive to hold about the same speed: the wobble goes away.

Not really very helpful to know in a combat situation, but I think this proves the point.

myrrhcedar
01-13-2010, 07:55 PM
From what I've tried, flying solo it feels like there are numerous ways to get rid of the wobble via cautious (to the point of dogfight futility) piloting; it all goes out the window when you try aiming at another aircraft. Even the slightest wobble makes every point-blank shot from the 6 in a perfect aircraft feel like an 800kph deflection shot in a damaged plane, because it's very rhythmless and erratic. It's quite hard to explain to the people who, for whatever reason, just aren't having the problem.

I'm not so much having extreme difficulty hitting anything (although you waste tons of ammo because the wobble will often disperse shots across every inch of a huge bomber and you always aim knowing the wobble will "yank" you left or right and spread your hits like buckshot) as I'm hitting myself in the head wondering why they made the feature so exaggerated and immersion-compromising; I guess it was just a unintentional biproduct of standardizing the flight models (I can't bring myself to buy the conspiracy theory that they just hate certain planes).

In other flight sims (and in older IL-2, which I think modeled it excellently back then) I've encountered this "wobble" during extremely rapid deceleration or airbraking, which makes sense since suddenly there's an absence of stabilizing "pull" and you're just fighting air pressure, and I've also felt wobbling yaw while landing in real aircraft, but any decent airspeed usually tightens the tail up real smoothly. In IL-2 it's like the tail of the plane is in a vacuum where air pressure remains the same (0 psi/0mph/orbital altitude) until you get the plane up to near-max dive speed; then it finally straightens out quite suddenly. If it's really intended to model engine gyro then it has a strange way of doing it. All of the planes "jerk" when you kick up/down the RPMs and maneuver simultaneously, but this is much different. As BillSwagger said it's like having your stabilizer shot off, but I'd add that it's like having your landing flaps down all the time, constant "rapid deceleration" handling, even (especially) when you're at cruise speed or accelerating. It's like you're skipping across the air like a stone on the top a pond, rather than cutting through it like a submarine.


How wide is the wobble in say sighting rings?

I don't have the game open right now so I can't say exactly how wide the wobble is using reticle references. The trouble isn't so much the size of the arc, so much as how you have to wait for it to "settle" for a couple seconds before trying to shoot because the swing/wobble is very fast and unpredictable (trying to correct it with the rudder just makes it even worse as soon as you let go).

triad773
01-13-2010, 07:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq0OQBdIhsc

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

M_Gunz
01-13-2010, 08:18 PM
for further identification [at] can be extended as [ata] Technische Absolut Atmosphäre or [atü] Technische Überdruck Atmosphäre.

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
for further identification [at] can be extended as [ata] Technische Absolut Atmosphäre or [atü] Technische Überdruck Atmosphäre.

For further identification, topics are identified by a title - you seem to have made a navigational error, M_Gunz. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
01-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Ya hadta tell me TWICE?

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 09:01 PM
Sorry, M-Gunz. I posted this, then realised I should have PM'd you: You delete your postings, I'll delete mine, and nobody will know...

BillSwagger
01-13-2010, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
The wobble is in the yaw axis and occurs with sudden changes with elevators.

You seem to be describing gyroscopic precession. How wide is the wobble in say sighting rings? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im gonna say not gyroscopic. It seems to be more associated with the Hispano version of the F4U which also explains the tendency for this to happen with the Tempest.

I also think its a simulation of weight. I used a bomb load in a couple missions and the effect was magnified considerably.

Rolls seem to exagerate the movement. What happens is a roll to the right initially causes a slight yaw to left, but the weight of the nose then rocks toward the right to follow the direction of gravity. And then consequently wobbles. You roll right to left, to right, and the plane wobbles all over making accurate shots difficult.


Bill

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 09:27 PM
Have you tried my 'engine off' experiment, BillSwagger? I think it suggests that it is gyroscopic effects being modelled, though the F4U does sem to have a fairly pronounced roll-yaw couple even with a dead engine.

Actually, it may even be something to do with the natural frequency of gyroscopic precession being in sync with the roll-yaw couple frequency at certain speeds, if that makes any sense: I've had a few beers and I'm not sure this is entirely logical, but it is something to think about...

BillSwagger
01-13-2010, 09:56 PM
considering that on landing, how much wobble there is just lining up with runway with 0% throttle it tells me its not gyroscopic.
Its also more pronounced at lower speeds, but whats strange is that its overly apparent at speeds that i would think the stabilizer would hold the tail straight.
I still think it simulates weight, particularly with hispano loaded wings. All of them do this, even the Hurricane, now that i think about it.


Bill

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 10:06 PM
With a constant-speed prop, an engine at low throttle will produce the same gyroscopic forces as at high speed, and the aerodynamic damping will be lower.

Increased mass in the wings will probably exaggerate roll-yaw couple too.

All this suggests to me that it isn't the F4U that is wrong, but earlier FMs.

BillSwagger
01-13-2010, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by AndyJWest:
With a constant-speed prop, an engine at low throttle will produce the same gyroscopic forces as at high speed, and the aerodynamic damping will be lower.

Increased mass in the wings will probably exaggerate roll-yaw couple too.

All this suggests to me that it isn't the F4U that is wrong, but earlier FMs.

actually less RPM would bring about less torque and gyroscopic forces, however, that is besides the point because i don't think it is meant to simulate that.

Try flying the F4U with a load of bombs, and the forces are much stronger. I believe it to be a simulation of weight particularly since the Hispano was thought to be a heavier gun.
Fly the F4U-1D, and the wobbles are virtually unnoticeable by comparison.

Also, the F4U was good in the roll axis, but a limiting factor was that it could not be centered on that axis for long. It would lose lateral stability in the roll axis, meaning the nose would no longer be centered on the roll axis. This could be part of that effect, though i don't see it be an issue in a half roll, but more through consecutive roll maneuvers.



Bill

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 11:18 PM
less RPM would bring about less torque

It would produce less gyroscopic forces (torque is another issue, and shouldn't in itself cause 'wobble'), but the object of a constant-speed prop is to keep RPM in the optimum range for the engine. Admittedly, when you throttle right back, revs will probably drop, but so will the aerodynamic damping effects.

Try it with the engine off.

BillSwagger
01-13-2010, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
considering that on landing, how much wobble there is just lining up with runway with 0% throttle it tells me its not gyroscopic.

Bill

unless your telling me at 500rpm the plane will have gyro effects.

i think its the weight in the wings.

AndyJWest
01-13-2010, 11:49 PM
I'll have to look into this further. Certainly if the revs are that low, you'd expect less effects, thoght as I said, the aerodynamic damping is lower too.

'Weight in the wings' can't in itself cause a wobble, but it will reduce damping. At these speeds, I think that pitch/yaw/roll coupling is more likely to be the cause of directional instability than gyroscopic effects, though as I said earlier, it is possible that they work in tandem to make things worse.

TheGrunch
01-14-2010, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
i think its the weight in the wings.
I think it's gyroscopic precession. I don't know whether the sim models weight belonging to a particular area of the aircraft rather than just assigning a weight to the aircraft as a whole and using that to calculate these effects. I think it's more likely that a higher weight just exaggerates the effect.

BillSwagger
01-14-2010, 05:23 AM
the initial yaw might be gyroscopic precession, but the wobble isn't.

The P-51D has a similar dispacement in rolls and turns, but it doesn't wobble around. It tends to drift to outside of the roll axis and then snaps back to the center as the wings level. The F4U does the same thing, but wobbles, like its teadering. The F4U1D is less pronounced than the F4u1c, which leads me to think its the simulated weight of the cannons in the wings. Bombs make it even more obvious.

M_Gunz
01-14-2010, 07:46 AM
Try 10% throttle and 10% prop pitch at altitude and speed and see what small jerks on the elevator do.
If putting the crosshairs on a plane puts you in slip and changes your attitude then hell yeah you're
going to need to compensate with other controls to maintain that attitude! If you don't then you and
your plane are going to fight each other. It's as simple as that.

M_Gunz
01-14-2010, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
i think its the weight in the wings.
I think it's gyroscopic precession. I don't know whether the sim models weight belonging to a particular area of the aircraft rather than just assigning a weight to the aircraft as a whole and using that to calculate these effects. I think it's more likely that a higher weight just exaggerates the effect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heavier pendulums swing longer too. Perhaps to speak of inertia?

myrrhcedar
01-14-2010, 07:57 AM
I just flew a few planes on different installs in rapid succession; we all fly differently and use different sticks etc etc etc so your mileage may vary.

The PF 3.00 f4uc lurches to the left or right under rapid manipulation of engine RPM, and "wobbles" with flaps down at slow speeds, or firing 20mmms at slow speeds.

It feels great and lively; you can feel its large size and weight pushing a lot of wind, but it also feels like it has a lot of momentum and is a stable firing platform.

The 1946 4.09 f4uc feels like a hollow blimp; any directional change is followed by 3-4 large side-to-side "wobbles". At 600 kmph, it flies similar to how the 3.00 f4uc flies at 150 kmph; it feels like you're in a vertical stall and the plane cant decide which direction to flop. It's literally like the tail is in a vacuum with no air pressure touching it. Terrible firing platform, since firing induces wobble. You also learn to fly like your rudder controls are frozen; touch them and wobble.

The 3.00 p-39 is really tight (although unforgiving, sudden flatspins). The 4.09 p-39 has only enough "wobble" to add a sense of life to the aircraft and calms down at decent speed, although if I had to choose, 3.00 feels both more unique and realistic.

The lagg-5 is about 400 kg heavier than the 109 g-2, yet the g-2 has some pretty noticeable "wobble" at all speeds compared to the lagg-5 (just noticeable if you look for it, not crippling: nowhere near the f4u). That's just interesting to mention because of the weight issue. The Soviet fighters have a lot less and almost feel like 3.00 planes, actually.

The p-51 is an interesting case; (relatively) big powerful US plane; almost no wobble. Sudden control movements result in VERTICAL wobble which feels quite realistic, but not erratic horizontal "my wings are trying to eat each other" wobble like the f4u.

4.09 a6m5 zero: no wobble, feels beautiful

3.00 and 4.09 p38l; they feel almost identical (no wobble)

4.09 FW190 A-4; it actually has a little wobble when you nose down quickly, but not terrible, and nowhere else that I noticed.

I'm not sure I see a pattern

SeaFireLIV
01-14-2010, 09:37 AM
Wobbles ended with 4.03 or 4 if I remember right, after all the complaints. They certainly aren`t a problem any more in 4.08 or 9 and I`ve flown many different planes (including the Corsair) since then.

pencon
02-17-2010, 06:44 PM
Hi Guys , lately I've encountered a change with the planes handling in 1946 , I'm not sure if it's the wobbling you mention or not. I fly mostly german planes , and the fws are almost unflyable now. Even with my hand off the joystick the plane is rolling right and left as if it's in a strong wind storm. Any elevator at all and the Plane will go into a stall even at 600 kmh . I've played Il2 since it first came out and have never seen it do this until now .I tried a few other planes today like the I185 and while not as bad , it still handles like crap and is all over the place .The game was doing this with the 4.08 and now still with the 4.09m patch

M_Gunz
02-17-2010, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by pencon:
Hi Guys , lately I've encountered a change with the planes handling in 1946 , I'm not sure if it's the wobbling you mention or not. I fly mostly german planes , and the fws are almost unflyable now. Even with my hand off the joystick the plane is rolling right and left as if it's in a strong wind storm.

What is The Ball doing when this happens?


Any elevator at all and the Plane will go into a stall even at 600 kmh .

What do you mean by stall? Does that include spin? Some people write stall whey mean spin, so I ask.
And again, what is The Ball doing when this happens?


I've played Il2 since it first came out and have never seen it do this until now .I tried a few other planes today like the I185 and while not as bad , it still handles like crap and is all over the place .The game was doing this with the 4.08 and now still with the 4.09m patch

How much attention are you giving the rudder?

Ba5tard5word
02-17-2010, 07:13 PM
Hi Guys , lately I've encountered a change with the planes handling in 1946 , I'm not sure if it's the wobbling you mention or not. I fly mostly german planes , and the fws are almost unflyable now. Even with my hand off the joystick the plane is rolling right and left as if it's in a strong wind storm. Any elevator at all and the Plane will go into a stall even at 600 kmh . I've played Il2 since it first came out and have never seen it do this until now .I tried a few other planes today like the I185 and while not as bad , it still handles like crap and is all over the place .The game was doing this with the 4.08 and now still with the 4.09m patch

Sounds like your joystick sensitivity settings are too high.

DKoor
02-17-2010, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
4.02 was a nightmare for me.

Most share your experiences.

I remember the exagerrated ridiculessness of it all... the usual drill me in QMB fighter sweeping the skies.
I selected P-51C vs 2 Franks over Okinawa.
I quickly despatched one and close in within 200m on other.

Now believe me or not I couldn't deliver coup de grace from that distance. No way... my nose was all over the place and few lucky .50cals landed on Frank's skin certanly wont do the jobhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

I was soo frustrated... it was like whole new sim after several years of really good experience (more or less).

4.02 nailed me really hard; game was basically unplayable for me on any kind of 'serious' basis.

In 4.04 almost all that crazy stuff was gone.

But yes, you can still feel it on certain planes.

Hope nothing similar ever comes out with this sim.
Or any other especially sow.

M_Gunz
02-18-2010, 12:13 AM
You spend years flying a sim and getting really good at it, training yourself in that sim and then after
it is shown demonstrably wrong in one area of handling and modeling (you could not fly a stall before 4.0
and even had to hold side stick to keep a plane in bank during a turn, but hey it was stable! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif)
and when that got improved few if any had themselves trained to deal with it including me.

Yawing the nose puts into effect gyro and slip-roll coupling in IL2 as we have it without any auto-rudder
or whatever effect the 3.x and before FM had. It was wrong and is now less wrong. Given that no combat
flight sim that will run on even the best PC made *can* be perfect, the IL2 series is amazing except to
those who only know what they think it should be. And I only say the last part because of how many find
4.x so wrong yet fail to know the shortcomings (due to code shortcuts that let us have a sim at all) of
IL2 before 4.x. The view seems to be "if it helps me it's good, if not then it's bad". Yup, definite
road to realism there. Between that and pressure to match charts why not go back to tables-on-rails
code where it's actually HARD to get less than best performance? Then it's all down to which charts to
use and nobody can't match test-pilot performance.

Jumoschwanz
02-18-2010, 08:33 AM
In real life, aircraft of different designs have different flying characteristics, one of these being directional stability.

This characteristic and others combined to vary the quality of real aircraft in WWII as far as being stable "gun platforms".

The IL2 Sturmovik flight sim replicated this difference and reality in the different aircraft it contained.

Despite the common sense of this, many "gamers" that got their hands on the IL2 Sturmovik flight sim were puzzled and alarmed when all the aircraft they flew did not behave the exact same way in their flight characteristics or as gun platforms.

They were also puzzled and alarmed when the IL2 Sturmovik flight sim modeled the reality of different guns and cannons having different ballistic qualities, for instance the reality that a 20mm cannon would cause more damage than a much smaller projectile, say around 13 mm(.50 inches).

All these "problems" were fixed at one point in time when those puzzled and alarmed "gamers" got together and made their own unofficial patches for the IL2 Sturmovik flight sim, giving small caliber weapons the ability to tear other aircraft apart just like the larger cannons, and fixing other differences in performance and flight modeling between the varying aircraft types.

Said "gamers" also set up their own game-rooms, or servers where they could create their own version of reality and WWII that let them change things as they saw fit, for instance with half-scale English Channels etc....

S!

RamsteinUSA
02-21-2010, 09:41 AM
for those of us that have never seen this wobble of your, please post a track...

we have no clue what a wobble is..