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TeaWagon
08-11-2005, 11:57 AM
http://forums.netwings.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1035

This link takes you to a story of a Japanese-American soldier who fought loyally and bravely for his country in the Second World War. Recommended Reading.

TeaWagon

Bearcat99
08-11-2005, 06:42 PM
Wow...... what a story...... very sobering.... and that is why we dont use the J word here.
Unfortunately it does not belong here in ORR so I have moved it to the PF forum..

Atomic_Marten
08-11-2005, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by TeaWagon:
http://forums.netwings.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1035

This link takes you to a story of a Japanese-American soldier who fought loyally and bravely for his country in the Second World War. Recommended Reading.

TeaWagon

Interesting read. I believe that he was by no means 'special' in this regard, since there was Germans and Italians as well as other nationalities (their roots originally from ww2 axis states) in allied armies.

His bravery is indeed admirable.

T_O_A_D
08-11-2005, 07:36 PM
Thanks for the story TW

arcadeace
08-11-2005, 11:16 PM
Thanks TeaWagon. After reading it my eyes were a bit watery. What a brave and dear man so worthy of the honor.

HotelBushranger
08-12-2005, 02:37 AM
Thanks for the link, I have immense respect for such people who fight against their own country.

~S~

Hoarmurath
08-12-2005, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Thanks for the link, I have immense respect for such people who fight against their own country.

~S~

huh? he wasn't fighting against america?

HotelBushranger
08-12-2005, 09:01 AM
No, but he was Japanese. He moved to America and joined the US military. Later, he flew in B-29's bombing Tokyo. That takes nerve.

Hoarmurath
08-12-2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
No, but he was Japanese. He moved to America and joined the US military. Later, he flew in B-29's bombing Tokyo. That takes nerve.

You completely missed the point. That guy was american, but of japanese descent. Not only that, but he was considering himself as american, and wanted to fight for its country. He wanted to do its part as any other american. And he did it, and even beyond its part.

Yet, people like you continue to consider him as a japanese. I think that this guy indeed earned the right to be called an american, much more than anybody born from white americans parents. He had to fight first against racial prejudice to be allowed to fight the ennemies of its country, and then had to continue fighting this racial prejudice after having been to combat.

This is for the "that guy is a japanese" part.

Now, for the "respect for people who fight against their country" part, do you also respect those americans who fighted for japan or germany?

LEBillfish
08-12-2005, 10:02 AM
Funny thing, being virtually every race in America except for American Indians are immigrants....That well known and all having embraced our nation "supposedly" welcome. Funnier still, whenever racist remarks are made they usually imply some other nationality as we tend to think in terms of continents or countries when thinking of a race.......

Curious how immigrant race Americans hammer on those just like them......Other immigrant race Americans.....Those casting the slur speaking really as though still of some foreign nation.

So who's the real non-American then? The one choosing another nationality over America...

Because in America, we're truly the all world inclusive race and have been for over 200 years http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

telsono
08-12-2005, 10:09 AM
This is another book to read on that subject:

Foo : A Japanese-American Prisoner of the Rising Sun : The Secret Prison Diary of Frank 'Foo' Fujita (War and the Southwest Series, 1) (Paperback)
by Frank Fujita (Introduction), Stanley L. Falk, Robert Wear

Frank Fujita grew up on Texas and Oklahoma, and served as a machinegunner for an artillery battalion that served in Java in 1942. He was a POW from when Java fell until the surrender of Japan. This is a good read. He is considered the only US combat soldier of Japanese heritage to be a POW with the Japanese. Also consider what the Japanese thought of him when they found out that he shot down either an Oscar or Zero over Java and six Japanese soldiers with a pistol when his MG jammed.

TC_Stele
08-12-2005, 10:20 AM
Kuroki. As Hannity would say, he sounds like a great American. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Waldo.Pepper
08-12-2005, 02:15 PM
Good read thanks.

He is a much bigger man than I. If I were treated like that may have told the bunch to shove it.

I wonder if there is a conteporary Kuroki of Arab ancestry.

Bearcat99
08-13-2005, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Interesting read. I believe that he was by no means 'special' in this regard, since there was Germans and Italians as well as other nationalities (their roots originally from ww2 axis states) in allied armies.
His bravery is indeed admirable.

I totally disagree with you on that one. He was indeed special, as were all the Japanese Americans who chose to fight for thier country inspite of the hypocracy. No Americans of German and Italian decent were interred in detention camps, while he had to visit his family in one... and many of them were recruited from the camps..... so yeah.. they were all quite special.
Just like they werent being lynched throughout the country and denied basic human rights... as were the men of the 332nd,477th,761st,820th... etc. Not to mention the Navajo and Comanche code talkers.

Atomic_Marten
08-13-2005, 10:14 AM
Bearcat I don't really appreciate your attempt to twist the meaning of my words.

Were there a man of "axis" origins in allied armies? Yes, you said it yourself. So why do you disagree with me that he wasn't special in this regard?

LEBillfish
08-13-2005, 11:25 AM
"Perhaps" what Bearcat is implying A.Marten is that though there were those of other axis nationalities involved, they did not for the most part suffer under the same prejudice as the Japanese....

Actually, many Americans at first were "somewhat" supportive of the Germans and their pre-war rebuilding even some of their prejudices as some of those "feelings" were held by a number of Americans.

However, once the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor an extreme hate of all Japanese developed with most Americans, just like 911 and all Muslims or Middle Eastern peoples (though not nearly as extreme). My guess would be that what he endured probably surpassed even the prejudice shown Black Americans.

Remember, it was looked at as though "we'll help defeat Germany, Italy, etc. to help stop aggression", so except for the N. Sea shipping us really the attackers....Yet in contrast we viewed Japan as aggressors directly toward the U.S......Us innocently attacked.

Atomic_Marten
08-13-2005, 11:45 AM
LEBillfish I haven't mentioned anything about who suffered more, who is more brave, most hated etc.

I have quite clearly noticed the *fact* that the allied Japanese soldier was not the only one whose roots were from ww2 axis countries in allied armies, so in that regard he wasn't special.

Isn't that quite obvious from my initial post?

Furthermore, if you insist that the Japanese soldier(s) suffered more that other soldiers of "axis origins" or other unwanted groups, I wont disagree on that. But also I wont agree too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
It would be generalizing things and that I don't like much.

joeap
08-13-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
"Perhaps" what Bearcat is implying A.Marten is that though there were those of other axis nationalities involved, they did not for the most part suffer under the same prejudice as the Japanese....

Actually, many Americans at first were "somewhat" supportive of the Germans and their pre-war rebuilding even some of their prejudices as some of those "feelings" were held by a number of Americans.

However, once the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor an extreme hate of all Japanese developed with most Americans, just like 911 and all Muslims or Middle Eastern peoples (though not nearly as extreme). My guess would be that what he endured probably surpassed even the prejudice shown Black Americans.

Remember, it was looked at as though "we'll help defeat Germany, Italy, etc. to help stop aggression", so except for the N. Sea shipping us really the attackers....Yet in contrast we viewed Japan as aggressors directly toward the U.S......Us innocently attacked.

Good points but I don't get your last bit re: "N. Sea shipping us really the attackers" what are you refering to here?

Bearcat99
08-13-2005, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Bearcat I don't really appreciate your attempt to twist the meaning of my words.

Were there a man of "axis" origins in allied armies? Yes, you said it yourself. So why do you disagree with me that he wasn't special in this regard?

I didnt twist Jack... in fact I quoted you verbatim. I failed mind reading 101 miserably so all I have to go on is your post....... :


Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Interesting read. I believe that he was by no means 'special' in this regard, since there was Germans and Italians as well as other nationalities (their roots originally from ww2 axis states) in allied armies.
His bravery is indeed admirable.

To which I replied..... :


Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I totally disagree with you on that one. He was indeed special, as were all the Japanese Americans who chose to fight for thier country inspite of the hypocracy. No Americans of German and Italian decent were interred in detention camps, while he had to visit his family in one... and many of them were recruited from the camps..... so yeah.. they were all quite special.


So I really dont understand what your beef is.... Other American born citizens whose roots were from Axis states did not have to go through what American born Japanese people did. That is a fact..... so I dont know about you but in my eyes anyone who is willing to go fight for a nation that has illegally imprisoned thier families and took thier land is special in my book. This has nothing to do with who suffered more either.

berg417448
08-13-2005, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bearcat99:
[

No Americans of German and Italian decent were interred in detention camps, while he had to visit his family in one... and many of them were recruited from the camps..... so yeah.. they were all quite special.



Not correct Bearcat:

My dad knew a family of German descent which simply "dissappeared" one day just after WWII started.

"By the end of the war, 11,000 persons of German ancestry, including many American-born children, were interned. "

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/

Atomic_Marten
08-13-2005, 01:19 PM
That is all OK, but you are saying things that in fact are no different to what I have said, since we are not on same topic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My 'beef' (like you said http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) is that I have used phrase "in this regard", meaning nationality (their origins, roots) there which you have overlooked. They are all American but from different origins.

So I haven't say "they weren't special in any regard from others". I have said *this* regard... no mind games from me intended there. But enough said. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEBillfish
08-13-2005, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
Good points but I don't get your last bit re: "N. Sea shipping us really the attackers" what are you refering to here?

Well, we were sending supplies to the English just as in WWI before we "officially" declared war against Germany. The Germans made it rather clear, they would blockade England, any shipping of goods to be sunk. N. Seas as in U-Boats sinking cargo ships, though to a great degree that played down as other allied ships with foriegn crews. Partly to not be directly involved as in having chosen a side....Partly to not inspire the American publics demands to go to war OR critisizm of our own government for helping.

So when we "formally" declared war against Germany, it "seemed" more us attacking them on foriegn soil to support the allies, then us being attacked on our own.....(though in truth they/Germans had as shipping was attacked all up and down the east coast to a rather large degree by U-Boats....So close in fact supposedly you could watch it from shore)

No expert on it, so could be all wrong but is how I understood it to have been.

arcadeace
08-13-2005, 02:11 PM
Here goes the **** moralizing! Look at the original post and where its ended. What a disgusting attempt to politicize, PC, whatever a very moving story. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Bearcat99
08-13-2005, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Not correct Bearcat:
My dad knew a family of German descent which simply "dissappeared" one day just after WWII started.
"By the end of the war, 11,000 persons of German ancestry, including many American-born children, were interned. "

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/


I stand corrected.

arcadeace
08-13-2005, 02:28 PM
You are a man Barry.

Edit: this statement does not apply

jarink
08-13-2005, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Well, we were sending supplies to the English just as in WWI before we "officially" declared war against Germany. The Germans made it rather clear, they would blockade England, any shipping of goods to be sunk. N. Seas as in U-Boats sinking cargo ships, though to a great degree that played down as other allied ships with foriegn crews. Partly to not be directly involved as in having chosen a side....Partly to not inspire the American publics demands to go to war OR critisizm of our own government for helping.

Actually, the US went far beyond that.

"To help escort convoys across the Atlantic, the Navy established the Support Force, Atlantic Fleet, and based it at Newport, R.I. On 1 March 1941, Rear Admiral Bristol became the Force's first commander. He held this important position throughout the tense, undeclared war with Germany in the summer and autumn of 1941 and through America's entry into the global conflict on 7 December of that year."
http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/a12/arthur_l_bristol.htm

This is from the US Navy's official historical site (actually cached on Goolge, history.navy.mil seems to be down at the moment). We essentially took over responibilty for escorting convoys in the western half of the North Atlantic nearly a year before Pearl Harbor. There were some losses on both sides, but it remains largely unknown since U-boats did not operate in our area of responsibilty until after Germany declared war on us. Shortly thereafter, Admiral Doenitz sent about 1/2 dozen boats to operate in US waters under the operational name of "Paukenschlag" (drumroll).

NS38th_Aristaus
08-14-2005, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by LEbillfish
being virtually every race in America except for American Indians are immigrants....
This statement is not true. The American Indian is as much an immigrant as everyone else. No race of man is Native to the Continent of America.

NS38th_Aristaus
08-14-2005, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So when we "formally" declared war against Germany,
The U.S. did not declare war on Germany. Germany declared war on the United States.

CHDT
08-14-2005, 02:22 AM
Just imagine the reverse situation: an american guy born and raised in Japan and fighting against the USA during WWII.

Everybody would probably scream "what a traitor"!

Double-standard, did I say "double-standard"?

CHDT
08-14-2005, 02:31 AM
Btw, this is an interesting debate to know if the nationality is just an administrative thing or something more deep.

Obviously, the idea which consists in seeing the human beeings only as interchangeable generic elements is from now on dominating. But does this idea have a long-term viable future? When one sees what currently occurs with the population in the USA (middle-term balkanisation between communities), one can doubt it.

Atomic_Marten
08-14-2005, 02:48 AM
That is extremely complex question, which IMO can not be answered simply, positive or negative.

I agree with you in


Obviously, the idea which consists in seeing the human beeings only as interchangeable generic elements is from now on dominating.


But does this idea have a long-term viable future? When one sees what currently occurs with the population in the USA (middle-term balkanisation between communities), one can doubt it.

No one can tell for sure yes or no, but in the spirit of first quote, I tend to say yes. Sometime in the future.

Or maybe I have watched to many Star Trek's? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CHDT
08-14-2005, 03:36 AM
Yes, extremely complex question, but I would rather say "no" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Looking back at the history, all the "diverse" empires have disappeared, because they were, at the base, artificial constructions (for instance, the Roman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian empire or even the USSR) uniting too different elements for a long term survival.

The study of the Roman Empire fall shows well also that things began to turn bad for the Romans when the Empire began to be too "diverse", especially after the "Caracalla edit" which "modernized" the Roman citizenship. Also when the Roman empire had to take in its legions barbarians to defend its fronteers, because real Romans were either not willing to get anymore in the military (the famous "panem et circenses" which can be translated for today "Walmart and base-ball") or simply declining in numbers.

This way, the Roman spirit slowly faded, long before the real fall of the Empire.

And to me, looking at this from Europe, the USA looks to take the Roman Empire way (of course, situation is not really better in Europe).

So in a sentence, diversity is not a strength, as the mainstream ayatollahs repeat it and oblige us to think this way, but a letal weakness for the long term survival of every nation.



P.S. Just look at these two news as little examples of the USA taking the "Roman Empire fall" path:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/11/census.minorities.ap/index.html

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=51472

Atomic_Marten
08-14-2005, 06:34 AM
About nationality, origins and other related things only time will tell for sure. We can discuss this for a long long time and still not reach anywhere.
About your link... I have read it, and pardon me if I say that I don't understand completely.
Who exactly are Texans?
I mean are the Texans those who are born in Texas or...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
As you read my question you will probably laugh but I don't really get this part.

CHDT
08-14-2005, 07:21 AM
In fact, the most interesting thing would be to have the very same debate in twenty years, to see what theory won http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Because this subject is like walking on very thin ice....

Atomic_Marten
08-14-2005, 07:34 AM
Why twenty only? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You are looking at our lifetime... I believe human history has plenty of time left after us. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You did not answer to my question... then that CNN report must be about somewhat controversial issue. I have also seen one post at GD about this issue. That one was deleted by mods fast.

joeap
08-14-2005, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by NS38th_Aristaus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So when we "formally" declared war against Germany,
The U.S. did not declare war on Germany. Germany declared war on the United States. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What he said. In fact it was not certain after Pearl Harbour that Germany would declare was as there was no reason by the existing Tripartite Pact (which stated if one of the member was directly attacked the others were bound to help). Hitler compounded his ealier error of attacking the USSR by doing so and sealing his fate.

Yes the US was involved with convoys in the Atlantic before PH...and had set up an oil embargo against Japan, in response to the Japanese occupation of French Indochina...and the continuing aggresion against China.

Back on topic, I can't help but admire the courage of those who chose to be American, as a Canadian I am ashamed we would not even let any Asians in our army in WWII, not only people of Japanese origin (they also were sent to internment camps) but also Chinese.

CHDT
08-14-2005, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Why twenty only? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You are looking at our lifetime... I believe human history has plenty of time left after us. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You did not answer to my question... then that CNN report must be about somewhat controversial issue. I have also seen one post at GD about this issue. That one was deleted by mods fast.


If we were in a real free/speech world, I could answer your question openly. But, it is not possible, as it is not a comfortable and even rather dangerous situation to act like Antigone did so long ago.


So, we have just to wait 20/30 years to discuss of the results of the current trend.

telsono
08-15-2005, 11:27 AM
Internment of Japanese Americans occured mostly in the western states of California, Oregon and Washinghton. In Hawaii the majority of the Japanese Americans (nisei) were NOT interned. There were many Japanese actors, singers and dancers who took up Chinese names. Many of these performed at a famous night club in San Francisco, the Great Wall. Some of these were on the East Coast at the time of Pearl Harbor and were told that if they returned to California they would be interned. I don't know if these are the Chinese that were interned, but it would explain some of them.

In the book I referenced before about Frank Fujita. His father, a non-citizen from Japan, was allowed to run his business unhindered during the war years in Texas. Both of his sons in military service with the Texas Division. Frank had joined the army before the war and was bound on a ship to the Phillipines when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

One of my co-worker's father was interned in a way in Hawaii. His father was a fisherman and was out with is partner fishing on December 7th. A naval vessel stopped their boat and arrested his father. The partner (filipino)and the boat were let go. After interrogation and finding out that all that had was a simple fisherman, the Navy was actually embarrassed. Not knowing what to do with him (they still felt that they couldn't release him), they had him work in the motorpool on Ford Island still technically an internee. This status was kept secret and even his family wasn't allowed to know about it. My friend's father's status wasn't cleared up until after the war. If my co-worker's uncle had known about the status of his brother he would not voluteered to serve in the army.

German and especially Italian POW's were given alot of liberty during the war. Many Italian POW's were given parole to work in the US or even to visit with family. In particular those interned at Camp Kilmer in New Jersey.
If you remember from the first Godfather movie in the beginning when the baker asked Don Corleone for help. This was to keep in this US the Italian POW that worked in his shop, so the POW could marry his daughter. That is based upon a true scenario as many of the incidents in that movie. My father used to chuckle and name the real people involved.

As to the Nisei stuck in Japan during the war. Many were used as interpertors as related by Frank Fujita in his book. Others were forced into military service or for propaganda purposes (i.e, the several women who were Tokyo Rose). One of my friends, a retired Customs Inspector, was born in San Francisco, and grew up wild in the streets. He could swear like a sailor and acted like one. John's father grew angry with him and sent him to live with his uncle in Japan to learn discipline. John was too young to serve in the military and finished his schooling there. One thing that John said he did after the surrender of Japan was to be a paid guide for US service men trying find good bars. John knew where all the the bars were, especially the ones in the narrow, maze like quarters of the city. Bad habits died hard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Waldo.Pepper
08-15-2005, 11:41 AM
Dear Joeap

You posted

"as a Canadian I am ashamed we would not even let any Asians in our army in WWII, not only people of Japanese origin (they also were sent to internment camps) but also Chinese."

Learn your own history better there Joeap, there were Japanese Canadians in the Canadian Armed forces during the war.

I quote from War on Our Doorstep.. page 75.

"In an effort to prove their loyalty to the United States and Canada, many Nikei joined the respective services of their countries when the ban on enlistment was lifted in February 1943. Their fluency in the Japanese language meant many Nikkei were used to monitor Japanese radio transmissions. They also fed false information back to Japanese commands in the South Pacific ans were used as interpreters during interrogations of Japanese POW's. "All Japanese" regiments formed up in both Canada and the U.S. and served in the European theatre."

-----


Now with that out of the way...the case I wanted to talk about was that of Sergeant Inouye Kanao "a Canadian citizen of Japanese ancestry, known to Canadian prisoners at the Sham Shui Po camp in China as teh "Kamloops Kid," a reference to his home town in the British Columbia interior. It was not an endearing term and for Canadians, his treason was unfathomable. His father had proudly served in the First World War and received the Military Medal for bravery. Kanao himself had signed up with the Imperial Japanese Army in 1938, and because his first language was English and he was fluent in Japanese, he earned himself the position as the camp commandant's personal interpreter. Kanao took particular delight in targeting Canadian prisoners, unmercifully beating hapless POW's held by two goons in retaliation for some indignity, perceived or real, he had suffered whioe a boy in Canada.

Following the war, Kanao's camp superior Commandant Tokunaga and his comrades received twenty-year sentences for war crimes. In an attempt to avoid their fate, Kanao argued that his Canadian citizenship excempted him from being tried as a war criminal. (OK now here comes the terribly funny part!) The British trial judge agreed and instead sentenced Kaneo to death for high treason. He was excecuted three days later on April 25, 1947 -- perhaps the only Canadian executed for treason during the Second World War."

Also from War on our Doorstep. Page. 69-70.