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blakduk
05-29-2005, 08:18 PM
Hey guys
I have tried many different planes in this simulator but the one i just cannot get mastery of is the 109. I find it really frustrating that whichever tactic i seem to take with it i fail miserably- if try to B&Z i find i'm not quick enough, if i try to T&B i find i'm not agile enough. If i go 1 on 1 in QMB the AI 109 seems to do things i cannot consider.
I also seem to find it more spin-happy than most other planes (except the p39).
This seems odd to me as it is often commented on as being 'easy to fly/learn'. If anything i seem to find the FW190 easier in most of its forms.
Does anyone know of or suspect that i am doing something in a 109 that is verboeten?

civildog
05-29-2005, 08:24 PM
Well, fortunately this is only a game so you can practice, practice, practice.

I dunno what else you can do. I find the 190 a lot easier to use than most say it is, and I find the 109 really easy to use comparatively. But I also think the P-39 is a lot easier to use than most say it is so what do I know?

blakduk
05-29-2005, 08:36 PM
Thanks CivilDog- i just find it curious that i've noticed a lot of whining about various aircraft but the one that seems ideally developed to trip me up is the 109.
The spins in the p39 are notorious so i was partially prepared for that- but even then i was able to come to terms with it.
I'm wondering if the rudder on the 109 was noted to be more influential as i seem to need to be more careful to coordinate my turns. When i'm trying to dogfight i seem to quickly become a falling leaf- consistently.

p1ngu666
05-29-2005, 08:54 PM
outclimb your opponent, then when hes reealy slow and or stalling, swoop down and blast away

civildog
05-29-2005, 09:03 PM
The 109 is never as snappy as the 190. It kinda purrs along and doesn't try to kill you very much.

I find it heavy in the controls and bleeding E all over the place in turns so keeping you inertia up is key. So it's back to the historical (and game) model: energy fighter not turn fighter. And it just gets worse in the late models, God forbid you hang any gunpods on the thing.

If you've flown the Cobra you know how easy it can be to get an unwary 109 pilot to drop out in a sustained turn. And how to take away a 109's advantages by taking the fight down to the deck.

So you need to master the boom n' zoom to be good in a 109. The real pilots used it that way, too. Keep your speed high and be patient. BnZ requires the utmost of patience: it's like fishing with a bow and arrow. Deflection, deflection, deflection.

As for the rudder, the whole tail is too small to be enough influence until the wooden tall tails came out on the later G models. The faster you go the less it helps. The K went back to a small tail but I think that version was lighter, too, so that might be why but the Gustavs were porkers. They feel like them in the game but that also helps push you through a dive.

The 109 climbs like the proverbial bat in the zoom but only for the first few seconds. That's all you'll need, though if you zoom after the boom to get away from most planes (except the Spitfire and maybe the Mustang if the ponypilot is quick enough).

blakduk
05-29-2005, 09:18 PM
CivilDog-
I find it heavy in the controls and bleeding E all over the place in turns
I think this might be the key for me- i get frustrated that it has so much power but it bleeds too quickly. I'm just surprised how heavy in the controls it is- i always considered it to be a 'lighter' more nimble ac.
I might just stick to the FW190- it seems more suited to B&Z.

Monson74
05-30-2005, 12:53 AM
With the right speed you can turn pretty well even in the later models - just don't do it for too long & try to add some vertical moves if you can. In my experience the 109 turns best at 300-400 km/h & with the excellent positioning of the gunsight you can make some pretty crazy deflection shots - especially when the enemy moves from left to right. Do not use combat flaps unless you really have to - you'll bleed even more precious E. Take the enemy up where he'll suffer from hypoxia & you'll have a significant advantage against most Russian fighters but respect the Mustangs & Thunderbolts. Personally I prefer the AS over the other late models because it feels lighter & has a 20mm in the nose. Happy hunting!

F19_Ob
05-30-2005, 03:38 AM
Hello.
I flew it for a long time and as u describe it it sounds as if u are running an earlier version of the game, when it was more difficult and the effect of the cannons were less.
In fb+aep+pf merged install it's a reall good overall fighter.

I experienced the same as U when I switched to fly allied planes and it took me a year to reach my peak in my allied planes of choice, despite my previous experience.

The variants are quite different also depending on the better opposition later in the war, where the speedadvantage is less.
Several late allied planes are about equal in performance and a few, like the La7 is better in most respects.
It also depends on your experience and the opponents skill, and plane. Different planes, different tactics.
Basically U have to know the opponents plane versus your own to be able to use correct moves, and that u can do only with time.

I flew 109 as my main ride for years and explored every possibility I could.
Now I mostly fly slower planes on the allied side (il-2 as main ride) and have enormuos use of my 109 days since it's now my main opponent.
Doubleseat il-2 vs 109 or 190 is my biggest and most interesting challange yet.

My my best advice to get familiar faster is to explore the slowest speeds and practice hardest maneuvers with the aid of flaps down to landing flap. Another is to practise steepest climbs from slow speeds without flipping. This enables U to correct stalls faster.

For BnZ attacks (many variations), practise climbs and to turn your nose down as fast as possible. when the allied plane below u stalls U must act quickly. If the opponent is experienced he will recover from his stall and gain speed as fast as possible.

well, a few tips.

Other than that . Remember to record tracks so u can examine the fight. And get insight in if U lost a fight because of misscalculation or some other reason or just bad luck.
Remeber to give an online-opponent credit aswell. maybe you encountered an expert.
I have by now examined thousands of tracks, not just my own. I have often recorded tracks online to go through other experienced players tricks and I learned a lot by doing so.

Although it's difficult now, keep at it because I had lots of fun with the 109 and for me it's still one best and meanest looking planes in the sim.

cheers

mynameisroland
05-30-2005, 04:16 AM
I thought the Bf 109 was a poor plane initially then switched to the Fw 190 which has become my favoured plane by far. But on mpas where the Fw is unavailable and Im forced to fly the 109 I find it to be a great plane especially the G2. I always carry gun pods as the 20mm in the nose is porked. If the G6 Mk108 is available take that and ditch the gunpods.

The 109 vs most of its contemporaries can out climb, out speed or out turn them. The last few nights ive flown online ive had to take the 109 G2 due to map restrictions and I shot down Red fighters in their droves. The Yak 1B is slower, the Lagg3 is faster but less manuverable, the Il2 cant touch you and the P39 will stall before the 109 and enter a spin more easily. Fighting in the 109 ive had to change my tactics from the Fw 190 as it does not respond at high speeds so when I boom down I throttle back and deploy flaps , after the initial pass I bleed E to get position and then just sit on the bad guys 6 with throttle cut and flpas fully deployed if neccessary. If the bandit tries to out turn you you are traveling slow enough to turn tighter. If the bandit is still going to out turn you you can take it to the vertical and do a vector turn. When caught by a bandit higher and faster than you again slow down, and force an over shoot, scissoring in the 109 is very effective and it has enough acceleration to follow a bandit that over shoots and decides to extend away from you long enough fpr you to get a good few shots in.

If you really need to bug out just take it in to a dive, it will out dive all Soviet made planes and will go over 850kmh with no damage what so ever.

The 109 is a great fighter if you mix it up.

jugent
05-30-2005, 01:12 PM
Take a look at IL2 compare-chart and see what trick u shall use against what aircraft

blakduk
05-30-2005, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the tips guys- i really appreciate it. I agree that the 109 is one of the deadliest looking planes and after reading for years about how effective a fighter it was i was surprised at how difficult i found it to fight in.
mynameisroland- "When caught by a bandit higher and faster than you again slow down, and force an over shoot, scissoring in the 109 is very effective and it has enough acceleration to follow a bandit that over shoots and decides to extend away from you long enough fpr you to get a good few shots in."

This maneuver has caught me out many times when i've flown against the 109, but i find it difficult to replicate. I guess i have just witnessed too many experts who made it look easy.
I will continue to practice, practice, practice but now i have a few ideas to work with.
Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JunkoIfurita
05-31-2005, 03:02 AM
As to B&Z tactics, a 109s idea of a Boom n Zoom (particularly against slow aircraft like bombers/sturmoviks) was to literally start nearly 2000m greater in altitude, then roll over into a 70 degree dive onto the victim - plenty of time to pick up over 650kph worth of E. Quick heavy burst as the target fills up your gunsight, pass below, pull out and break away into the climb on a shallower (45degree or less) climb to regain your altitude.

Then it's just rinse and repeat.

----

Grue_
05-31-2005, 04:35 AM
Hayateace must be on holiday http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mynameisroland
05-31-2005, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by blakduk:
Thanks for the tips guys- i really appreciate it. I agree that the 109 is one of the deadliest looking planes and after reading for years about how effective a fighter it was i was surprised at how difficult i found it to fight in.
mynameisroland- "When caught by a bandit higher and faster than you again slow down, and force an over shoot, scissoring in the 109 is very effective and it has enough acceleration to follow a bandit that over shoots and decides to extend away from you long enough fpr you to get a good few shots in."

This maneuver has caught me out many times when i've flown against the 109, but i find it difficult to replicate. I guess i have just witnessed too many experts who made it look easy.
I will continue to practice, practice, practice but now i have a few ideas to work with.
Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That is an unfavourable situation and try to avoid it if you can but the situation I was thinking of was the result of already having fought a few bandits and being caught by the reinforcements coming along with a height advantage. If you are in a multiple plane engagement try and pair up with another guy if this is not possible or likely just radio for help and turn in to the bandit rather than run away. You can either get a head on shot or work an angle for the beginning of a scissors type movement. If you get caught by multiple reds attacking at the same time scissoring can put you at a disadvantage thats why you should try to have an altitude cushion of 1500m so you can closer radiators and dive to the ground at 110% trying to build up as much speed as poss because Russian made planes will begin to break and feel unsafe after 700 - 750kmh the 109 can be pushed to 850 - 900kmh if you are gentle.

All of the above is also dependant on your gunnery skills, the 109 is quite difficult to land hits with, its cannons are a lower velocity than other 20mm's and landing hits can prove difficult. Best thing for me is use a higher convergence setting I use 400m which means the rounds fly out pretty straight perfect for shooting bandits that overshoot or pulling lead for a head on shot. Also like somebody else mentioned in this thread or another recent one, learn how to fly the 109 slow with flaps down at low altitudes without stalling and crashing see how much you can push it right on the edge before it departs. Planes like the Lagg 3 and Mig 3 dont really like stall fighting down low and you can out run a yak if neccessary.

regards

NorrisMcWhirter
05-31-2005, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by blakduk:
CivilDog-<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I find it heavy in the controls and bleeding E all over the place in turns
I think this might be the key for me- i get frustrated that it has so much power but it bleeds too quickly. I'm just surprised how heavy in the controls it is- i always considered it to be a 'lighter' more nimble ac.
I might just stick to the FW190- it seems more suited to B&Z. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I prefer not to fly the 109 but Pingu's advice on climbing away is good. You can spiral climb most bandits which either results in you being able to attack again or you can call a friendly in for an easy drag n bag.

The 190 is far more suited to bnz. The 109s elevator responsiveness in a high speed dive is very poor, to say the least. Often planes will dive with you then easily turn onto your 6 as you try to zoom; with the 190, you can just roll away.

Ta,
Norris