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Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 03:43 PM
13. Post deleted

Obviously "objective" is not is some poster's vocabulary and I'm not about to let you(you know who your are)guyz ruin this thread.

Fritz Franzen

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 03:48 PM
I started this thread basically as a chance for further education. This is not about who was right or who was wrong. I'm hoping people will objectively add further information on this subject. I think it would make for an interesting discussion. Please do not compare the American camps with those of other countries.

Flamers and users of Asshatexx not welcome, go look for an "uber" or "unter" thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

DxyFlyr
05-19-2005, 04:34 PM
hmmm, internment camp in Texas, or internment camp in Poland. You pick. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Chuck_Older
05-19-2005, 04:35 PM
You sure can pick your friend's nose. You just need to be stronger than he or she is, and hold 'em down

arcadeace
05-19-2005, 04:47 PM
I'm not sure how you can hope judgments will be avoided, here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Most Americans would agree it was not the right thing to do. Most should understand it was a different time - a much bigger world. Countries were separated in their cultural traditions and pride, and info flow and travel was minuscule. So if a citizen in the US was from Germany it was easier to judge them as German, from Japan, Japanese etc.. It was a time of worldwide ignorance, easy suspicion and fear. The Jews became a scapegoat in Germany.

Personally, when I hear people wanting an apology generations after the fact I really don't understand. It was an unfair episode in life 60-65 years ago. You can't go back to those originally responsible, so representatives who I elect speak on my behalf and apologize? Maybe I'm being presumptive but if I was in one of those camps George Bush, Ted Kennedy etc. wouldn't give me resolution. To me its symbolism over substance. I do believe the survivors' sincerity tho, money is not involved.

blakduk
05-19-2005, 04:54 PM
The internment of 'aliens' in the USA during ww2 has an interesting history- like most things of the ww2 conflict they have their roots in ww1.
In ww1 there was initally no internment of people with German ancestry and, before they entered the war, the USA expected their neutrality to be respected. The USA discovered however that during ww1 the German government was attempting to invoke a conflict between the USA and Mexico- remember that at that time it hadnt been too long ago that there had been a war between them and territorial boundaries were still hotly debated. Added to this was the was very strong circumstantial evidence that German agents had been involved in sabotaging war industries/stockpiles on the American mainland. After the ww1 armistice the USA was shocked by revelations of just how active these agents had been.
Leap forward to ww2- the USA wasnt about to let lightning strike twice. Many innocent people were caught up in the internment and a lot of people never forgave the USA for the suspicion directed at them- war has many victims and the argument used at the time was that it was better to have some disgruntled citizens rather than dead patriots. Also, Facism hadnt been discredited yet and a lot of people in the West greatly admired Hitler and sympahtised with their ambitions- i think it was 1936 that 'Time' magazine named him 'Man of the year'.
As the old saying goes 'Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people AREN'T after you'.

heywooood
05-19-2005, 05:49 PM
Tell us all the right way to wage war?...

You must know.

Why do people bother to critisize war - wouldnt it be best to try to avoid these topics altogether?

The only thing you can say after a war if you are lucky is - I'm glad its over and I'm glad we won....whatever it took to get to that point is just so much sauce.

You or I can apologize all over the place or not - what friggin' good will that do? The dead will still be dead - the wronged will still be wronged and the instigators will still be vanquished. What wil we learn from this? War is hell....DUH. Next...

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 05:54 PM
DxyFlyr, nice try but please read the second post in this thread. To add, I don't think you can compare as you tried.

Once again I agree with you Blakduk. I don't blame the US government for doing this. As you said, Hitler had many supporters in the US. So much that they actually became a threat to Hitler's agenda. Hitler was worried the American Nazis would bring America into the war. I saw a documentary about this a few years ago and if I remember correctly it said Hitler actually had the American Nazis disbanded. The Nazi party in the US was huge.

I think it was Discovery, from the "Secret Society" series. I'll have to dig through my DVD's to see.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 06:01 PM
Blakduk, do you find something odd about this sentence?

"Ebel offered an idea in which the United States would set up a commission of historians to examine the treatment of German-Americans, Italian-Americans and Jewish refugees."

Were Jewish refugees held in internment camps? If so, why?

DxyFlyr
05-19-2005, 06:09 PM
Ok, I may have partaken in a little asshatedness in my first reply to this thread. Allow me to elaborate...

You asked us not to compare other countries' camps to that of our own. I believe that is the root of the problem I have with groups that seek justice for historical ills. They want to apply today's context to events that occured way back when. And now, you want to remove even the historical context!

It hardly seems fair to judge anyone out of context. There's no question that many folks were wronged exactly as described in the text of the original post. But bringing litigation over it is inappropriate.

I imagine there are millions buried in Europe who would have been happy to "serve time" in Crystal City, Texas. That's the context.

SkyChimp
05-19-2005, 06:18 PM
I spent time in an internment camp in Texas. Caught some really big bass during my stay.

DxyFlyr
05-19-2005, 06:24 PM
Should I be spitting out this hook, SkyChimp?

DxyFlyr
05-19-2005, 06:34 PM
Oh, I see he cut the line.

Jetbuff
05-19-2005, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by heywooood:
The only thing you can say after a war if you are lucky is - I'm glad its over and I'm glad we won....whatever it took to get to that point is just so much sauce.
Absolutely incredible! So in effect, the ends justify the means?

I suggest you think about that a little bit and you'll recognize that's not too far from a terrorist's justification for killing civillians.

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by DxyFlyr:
Ok, I may have partaken in a little asshatedness in my first reply to this thread. Allow me to elaborate...

You asked us not to compare other countries' camps to that of our own. I believe that is the root of the problem I have with groups that seek justice for historical ills. They want to apply today's context to events that occured way back when. And now, you want to remove even the historical context!

It hardly seems fair to judge anyone out of context. There's no question that many folks were wronged exactly as described in the text of the original post. But bringing litigation over it is inappropriate.

I imagine there are millions buried in Europe who would have been happy to "serve time" in Crystal City, Texas. That's the context.

"I started this thread basically as a chance for further education.

This is not about who was right or who was wrong.

I'm hoping people will objectively add further information on this subject.

I think it would make for an interesting discussion.

Please do not compare the American camps with those of other countries."

It's really that simple. Take a look at some of the posts in here, especially Blakduk's.

Objective information for further education.

Objective = opposite of subjective(your post)

information = anti-ignorance in the form of answers obtained by questions

for = very handy 3 letter word

further = advancement

education = something you can never have enough of

I think it's clear. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

DxyFlyr
05-19-2005, 07:00 PM
Ok, Pirschjaeger, I'm with you.

My point is simple (and yes, subjective)... I think the people that would pursue monetary gain or simply recognition over that particular issue are petty and inconsiderate of other people who truly suffered terribly.

As I have no further historical or educational information to add, I'll bow out as gracefully as possible.

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by DxyFlyr:
Ok, Pirschjaeger, I'm with you.

My point is simple (and yes, subjective)... I think the people that would pursue monetary gain or simply recognition over that particular issue are petty and inconsiderate of other people who truly suffered terribly.

As I have no further historical or educational information to add, I'll bow out as gracefully as possible.

It's not entirely your fault. I should have deleted the subjective parts. To be honest I wasn't really interested in the part about them trying to get an apology, not money.

What was most curious to me was the sentence about the Jews. But without the rest of the artical the sentence would have no context. I know that the allies were quite unfriendly and closed the doors on many Jews fleeing Europe but I want to know what was going on with the Jews inside the allied countries.

Were they German-Jews or Italian-Jews being held due to their country of origin?

Anyways, no hard feelings DxyFlyr. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

blakduk
05-19-2005, 08:03 PM
Pirschjaeger- as far as i know (and my ignorance of history far exceeds my knowledge) there was no direct policy of interning Jews in the USA during WW2. However, the government of the day was quite distrustful of many immigrants, especially those who were more distinctly 'foreign' by either their appearance or language. In Oz at the moment we have an appalling policy of interning 'illegal immigrants' and there have been recent examples of people with poor command of English being detained and, in at least one case, deported because they seemed foreign despite the fact they were actually Australian citizens (I only hope this is due to gross incompetence and not facism). This of course is happening in a time of peace and relative comfort in our society- one can easily how more extreme the outcomes are when the dominant culture is facing very real threats. There were many conspiracy theories during WW2 abounding that German 'sleeper' agents (the terms were different at the time, 'sleeper' seems to have come into popular parlance during the cold war) were posing as refugees to infiltrate the USA to wreak havoc. One example i am aware of involving a Jewish refugee who was interned is described by Karen Ebel
"Eddie Friedman was born of Jewish parents in Hamburg in 1892. Doctor Friedman, as attorneys are known in Germany, practiced law until forbidden to do so by Nazi edicts. Mr. Friedman and his wife, Liesl, were granted exit permits in 1938. However, before they could escape, Mr. Friedman was arrested and imprisoned in Oranienberg-Sachsenhausen concentration camp outside Berlin. Relying upon his connections to the legal community, Mr. Friedman was able eventually to secure his release from Sachsenhausen. He fled to America and freedom with Liesl. In San Francisco, his English was too broken to pursue law, so he found work delivering Viennese pastries door-to-door in the German community. To the FBI agents who were secretly monitoring Mr. Friedman's activities, this connection to suspicious German Americans indicated that Mr. Friedman was a dangerous Nazi. During the December 8 raids following Pearl Harbor in which hundreds were arrested, the FBI took him into custody in his San Francisco apartment. Eddie Friedman, the Jew who had narrowly escaped extermination in Germany, wound up behind barbed wire at Ft. Lincoln internment camp outside Bismarck, North Dakota. There, he fought "Gitterkrankheit" (fence sickness) for six months before his protests of innocence were finally heard. He was released to return to San Francisco, marked for life by the internment experience. He never returned to the practice of law, and spent thirty-nine years as a door-to-door cosmetics salesman. He always fixed his deep, sad eyes on his customers and introduced himself as Doctor Friedman. Years later, the Friedmans were still so terrified by their experience and the power of the FBI that they would never allow their real names to be used when their story was published. Friedman is a pseudonym."

The above story is tragic and is just one among many. The victims of war each have their own story but the common thing they share is injustice and heartbreak. Be wary of the leader who waves a flag and encourages conflict.

DxyFlyr
05-19-2005, 08:08 PM
Glad for no hard feelings Pirschjaeger.

Here's an article I found on your topic...

Handbook of Texas Online (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/WW/quwby.html)


No mention of Jewish internment, however.

psychobabbler
05-19-2005, 08:40 PM
not to pour gas on the fire,but c'mon bro, it's
very easy to second guess decisions which were
made 60 years ago.

steve_v
05-19-2005, 08:53 PM
Pirschjaeger

I would like to offer a contribution for your thread, Internment Camp in America.

You've selected a difficult topic. As an American, and one who lives in Georgia, allow me to introduce you to the Andersonville National Historic Site. In 1998 the National Prisoner of War Museum opened at Andersonville, dedicated to the men and women of this country who have suffered captivity. I am leaving you the link. http://www.nps.gov/ande/

If possible, you should visit.


The Georgia Monument in Andersonville National Cemetery honors all American prisoners of war.

http://home.earthlink.net/~viner45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/powstatue.jpg

Hollow-Cost
05-19-2005, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DxyFlyr:
Ok, I may have partaken in a little asshatedness in my first reply to this thread. Allow me to elaborate...

You asked us not to compare other countries' camps to that of our own. I believe that is the root of the problem I have with groups that seek justice for historical ills. They want to apply today's context to events that occured way back when. And now, you want to remove even the historical context!

It hardly seems fair to judge anyone out of context. There's no question that many folks were wronged exactly as described in the text of the original post. But bringing litigation over it is inappropriate.

I imagine there are millions buried in Europe who would have been happy to "serve time" in Crystal City, Texas. That's the context.

"I started this thread basically as a chance for further education.

This is not about who was right or who was wrong.

I'm hoping people will objectively add further information on this subject.

I think it would make for an interesting discussion.

Please do not compare the American camps with those of other countries."

It's really that simple. Take a look at some of the posts in here, especially Blakduk's.

Objective information for further education.

Objective = opposite of subjective(your post)

information = anti-ignorance in the form of answers obtained by questions

for = very handy 3 letter word

further = advancement

education = something you can never have enough of

I think it's clear. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

full of your self. Boring.

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Hollow-Cost:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DxyFlyr:
Ok, I may have partaken in a little asshatedness in my first reply to this thread. Allow me to elaborate...

You asked us not to compare other countries' camps to that of our own. I believe that is the root of the problem I have with groups that seek justice for historical ills. They want to apply today's context to events that occured way back when. And now, you want to remove even the historical context!

It hardly seems fair to judge anyone out of context. There's no question that many folks were wronged exactly as described in the text of the original post. But bringing litigation over it is inappropriate.

I imagine there are millions buried in Europe who would have been happy to "serve time" in Crystal City, Texas. That's the context.

"I started this thread basically as a chance for further education.

This is not about who was right or who was wrong.

I'm hoping people will objectively add further information on this subject.

I think it would make for an interesting discussion.

Please do not compare the American camps with those of other countries."

It's really that simple. Take a look at some of the posts in here, especially Blakduk's.

Objective information for further education.

Objective = opposite of subjective(your post)

information = anti-ignorance in the form of answers obtained by questions

for = very handy 3 letter word

further = advancement

education = something you can never have enough of

I think it's clear. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

full of your self. Boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome back Trink http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

heywooood
05-20-2005, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
The only thing you can say after a war if you are lucky is - I'm glad its over and I'm glad we won....whatever it took to get to that point is just so much sauce.
Absolutely incredible! So in effect, the ends justify the means?

I suggest you think about that a little bit and you'll recognize that's not too far from a terrorist's justification for killing civillians. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

in the context of the original post, I am referring to conventional warfare between two or more nations - declared war - not this terrorist trash. You are stupid to associate my position in this manner and I have obviously taken offense.

To believe that I would condone the merciless slaughter of civilians - non uniformed - non combatants in any way shape or form based on what I wrote is insane - you should be tested immediately. You will not pass.

In a declared war between two or more Nations - there is always an aggressor - one that begins hostilities. no?... and in our collective experience, the respondant Nations must take steps to protect themselves and to retaliate in kind, if not exactly in kind - then to a degree that is acceptable to that nations' people.

Civilians were interred by the IJA in Malaysia, in China, in Borneo, in the Phillipines etc...

A defensive reaction to a surprise attack in 1940 has Nothing to do with terrorism today.

I would expect you to appologize to me as we share this community, but I have seen other statements you have made and have no doubt that you will not have the 'sand' to do so.

Please prove me wrong.

I am sorry to others for posting this here and not using PM but I was called out on this board so I have responded in kind.

Atomic_Marten
05-20-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by heywooood:
In a declared war between two or more Nations - there is always an aggressor - one that begins hostilities. no?... and in our collective experience, the respondant Nations must take steps to protect themselves and to retaliate in kind, if not exactly in kind - then to a degree that is acceptable to that nations' people.

That is only half-true.
There is also a situation where we have aggresors on each side involved in hostilities.

But for sure there's no war if *none* of them are agressors.(if no one is claiming or demanding anything, there is no reason for war).

arcadeace
05-20-2005, 06:59 PM
With our present self-righteous media if military technology was the same today as in the beginning of WWII, and events established WWIII, would the 'good guys' be able to achieve victory as the Allies did? No. Because they would be judged just as evil.

War is hell. Tyranny, freedom, and human rights in large part took on different meaning then, compared to now. Sometimes I'm not sure with 20-20 hindsight what we have, or even can learn. Still, when its clear to me there is an evil power which can conquer and destroy... as it becomes more ominous for my survival, more means becomes more justified to destroy it.