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Bsnakeman
08-14-2005, 05:52 PM
S all!

Just did some gunnery on a "friendly" He-111 with the Brownings .303 from a Hurricane MkIIb(12mg/220m conv. ) and from a Spit MkV (only 4mg/220m conv., no cannons )from 200m, 100m, 50m, 10m range and although the Hurri has 3 times more machine gun power, the Spit´s machine guns are more powerful. Sim bad modeling or different type of ammo ?

Best,

horseback
08-14-2005, 05:57 PM
This is simply a case of the Heinkel being confronted with the legendary Spitfire and making the right decision.

Now try doing the same thing with the .50 cal nose guns of a P-39N or Q (the supposedly 'Russian' versions) vs the nose guns on a P-40B/C or the wing guns on a P-51B/C.

Biased modeling? You be the judge.

cheers

horseback

Xiolablu3
08-14-2005, 06:23 PM
I noticed when trying to attack a TB3 in a Hurri the other night that the Hurris 8x303 didnt do a lot. Sure lots of bits came off the tb3, but they were tiny shreds, yaknow the ones.

Is the MkV you were using a 'c' version?? (maybe thee were only 'c' MKV's I'm not sure.

I was reading up on spit armament the other day.

'c' armament on any spit is 4x303 and 2x20mm

'e' armament is 2x.50 and 2x20mm.


I know mk 9's have both c and e but do the Mk5's?

Anyway, I like the machine guns on the spit, good for long range shots. Lots of spread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Another plane with appallingly weak Machine Guns is the FW190D9. I had run out of cannon ammo on another kill and got behind a yak last night. I was shooting at it and hitting it for ages, didnt do squat. (The 190D holds a LOT of mg ammo, unfortunatly its like shooting potato gun) Your only hope is to get his control cables.

Plus with the guns mounted on the engine, you are much more likely to put the rounds into his tail than get any shots into his cockpit or engine like you could with wing guns.

VW-IceFire
08-14-2005, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Bsnakeman:
S all!

Just did some gunnery on a "friendly" He-111 with the Brownings .303 from a Hurricane MkIIb(12mg/220m conv. ) and from a Spit MkV (only 4mg/220m conv., no cannons )from 200m, 100m, 50m, 10m range and although the Hurri has 3 times more machine gun power, the Spit´s machine guns are more powerful. Sim bad modeling or different type of ammo ?

Best,
I think you're just seeing how ineffective the weapon really is.

Firstly, how did you attack the Heinkel. Was it a dead 6 approach? If you do a dead 6 approach, you spend alot of time pouring fire at the target and not much happens. Largely because there isn't much vulnerable from that aspect and the .303s don't go very far when they hit the target.

So basically, you are relying on a few random bullets to do all of your damage. Your chances increase with the volume of fire from the Hurricane II but its not all that much better than the Spitfire V in this regard.

No there was no E type armament fitted to a Spitfire V...at least none ingame. There may have been a few odd examples but I've never seen or heard of one.

I would still have to disagree with the original poster. The 12 .303s still do more damage...but you aren't doing alot overall so its quite possible in the same amount of time to do the same damage in either plane depending on how lucky you are - from dead 6.

From angles...the Hurricanes 12 .303s are better than the Spitfires 4 .303s...indesputably so.

Atomic_Marten
08-15-2005, 02:00 AM
I am on the other hand amused by Hurricane armament. I love it. I set gun convergence to low values below 200m. And approach my victim carefully aiming to the fuel tanks. 2 second burst max. from below 200m and v³ila!
Boogie is on flames.

No really... you guys should check for instance Hurricane MK.1 vs Stuka combat. Make sure you set low gun convergence, and be close when you are firing, below 200m. You will deal with all of them in no time, assuming you give them accurate burst.

Just be sure that you aim for the fuel tank on bombers. Versus Emil, I just make sure that I am close, .303s are devastating on that range I will damage him in all possible ways including often PK.

Atomic_Marten
08-15-2005, 03:46 AM
And I have just checked... P-40E, Hurricane MK.1, Spitfire MK.5 (using only .303s).

Versus 2 Heinkels as target drones (empty). Realistic gun settings, limited ammo.

I have aimed for left engine and fuel tank.
Conclusion.
P-40E was able to dispose the HE-111 in no time. Best machine gun configuration of tested aircrafts.
HurricaneMK.1 (6x.303cal) was capable to deal with two HE-111s succesfully.
Spitfire, using only 4x.303cal machine guns was unable to succesfully bring down HE-111. Not to mention two of them.

-----------------------------

Also I was unable to find indicators that P-40B machine guns efficiency is weaker than those in P-39N. I have checked that also under above explained conditions.

@horseback, could you care to explain why do you think there is difference? BTW how did you test it in the first place, I am unable to separate .303cal machine gun trigger from .50cal trigger, that also created troubles for me.

Bsnakeman
08-15-2005, 04:47 AM
Hi guys

What I´ve meant is that, proportionally, the Spit V 4x .303( using no Hispanos ) makes, sounds & recoil more damage & feeling then the Hurri´s 12 .303. Is great to see the shower of bullets of the Hurri but to weak results. I´ve been shooting from 8 and 4 o´clock, 50m higher in the engines/wing roots so it´s good target area.
I think Oleg should used the same patterns of the .30/.303/.50 Brownings mo matter what plane it bears and the .50 are the worst. Bud Anderson, saddly, notice it in this sim. I love to fly the Jug but is so frustrating the lack of punch of it´s 8 .50´s.

Best,

Atomic_Marten
08-15-2005, 05:10 AM
Mate I agree with you in regard that machine gun fire GENERALLY produces less damage in this sim when compared to real life. That is the case with ALL planes in this sim. In real life there was many more possibilities to hit something important and thus render enemy aircraft unflyable and destroy it. For instance we will get air coolant fluid leak in BoB, but we do not have this in FB.

If that is featured, we could damage the enemy engine by this type of damage solely and it would be enough to bring it down. Machine gun fire is ideal for this type of damage.

Cannon armed planes are not so affected by this "lack of inflicting damage" since they produce much more structural damage, literally ripping off parts of enemy fighter.

Is this fair? It is not, but everything we can do is to at least fix or outquestion inaccuracies like ".303cal on Spitfire is more efficient than .303cal on Hurricane".

I honestly assure you that this is not the case in 4.01 version of the game and I can post you a track if you want to.

I have emptied whole .303cal Spitfire load in one Heinkel and that wasn't enough to bring him down. Aimed on engines as much as possible.
On the other hand I have been able to do bring two Heinkels and still have ammo left with Hurricane MK.I (6x.303cal).
So logical conclusion is that Spifire do not have MG fire efficiency like Hurricane since Hurricane has two MGs more. And that would be correct, according to real life.

I don't see how you could end up with different results.