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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:33 AM
Hiya,

Now that we're getting cool new planes like the Do-217 & He-177, I have a question about Luftwaffe tactics. Were these planes ever used in the daylight? If so, how large were the formations and were they escorted? I'm interested in the 1941-43 period here (when I get to fly the Spit V!). I was also wondering if the Luftwaffe continued to make daylight shipping strikes within range of the RAF Spitfires.

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:33 AM
Hiya,

Now that we're getting cool new planes like the Do-217 & He-177, I have a question about Luftwaffe tactics. Were these planes ever used in the daylight? If so, how large were the formations and were they escorted? I'm interested in the 1941-43 period here (when I get to fly the Spit V!). I was also wondering if the Luftwaffe continued to make daylight shipping strikes within range of the RAF Spitfires.

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:35 AM
We are getting those planes?!?! Since when?

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:57 AM
I saw a couple of posts either on Oleg's forum or the Netwings site. I think someone by the name of Halfwit is working on them. he was actually looking for skinners. I did see a picture of the He-177 model.

Here's halfwit's site:
http://www.flugzeugwerk.net/ir%3efb/

The He-177 pic isn't on it.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 04:04 AM
nice!

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 05:00 AM
very nice

http://www.global-vision.org/interview/intergifs/scream.gif


"Our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, provided the madness is given us by divine gift.."- Plato

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 05:04 AM
He~177 would be...I dunno...awesome!

They also forced 177s to do transport duty into the Stalingrad bag. A waste.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:55 AM
Yep, both planes flew daylight missions over the North Sea (anti shipping mostly). Do 217s also in the Med in anti shipping missions, their greatest success was the sinking of the Italian BB Roma in 1943.

In early 1944, the KG 1`s He 177 (IIRC) conducted daylight bomb attacks on Soviet railroad yard, the largest formations being made up by 50 or so planes. I think they went unescorted, Soviet fighters were not so keen attacking them.

IIRC they were also flown over Britain in daylight, performing photo recon missions. Usual tactic was to climb high up before entering enemy airspace, and make a swallow angled long dive towards home. This way the Greiff could reportedly shake off intercepting Spitfires on their tail.




Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 08:34 PM
I've read that He-177's performed a few dive bombing sorties over Britan. Any info on that? Targets? Time of Day?

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:03 PM
When operating on bombing missions the He 177 used similar tactics to the Western Allies. Night missions were flown by planes individually, and the short distance from occupied Europe to London allowed the use of a gentle dive from high altitude to keep speed up and reduce exposure to British defences. Daylight missions were flown in close formation to provide mutual support. For example, attacking the railway centre at Velikye Luki in 1944 KG1 carried out an attack with 87 bombers flying in a formation of three closely spaced v-shaped waves, each comprising a Gruppe of around 30 bombers. They attacked at around 20,000 feet and the cross-fire from the bombers kept the few Soviet fighters which intercepted at bay.

In late 1944 one of the oddest tactics used, and one forced on commanders by Goring himself, was to employ the He 177 as a low level ground attack aircraft against advancing Soviet tanks. KG1's commander, Horst von Riesen, sent them out in pairs to provide some mutual protection, but a quarter of the 40 aircraft committed were lost, mostly to Soviet fighters. Operating at the low levels were Soviet aircraft perfomred best, and without a strong defensive formation, they stood little chance. (Both examples from Alfred Price in 'The Last Year of the Luftwaffe').

Having quickly checked 'Heinkel He 177, 277 and 274' by Manfred Greihel and Joachim Dressel, and 'Do 217-317-417' also by Griehel, I can find no reference to either performing daylight reconnaissance missions over Great Britain. This is hardly surprising - by the time both were introduced British defences were very strong, and the He 177 especially would be very unsuitable for daylight reconnaissance over a defended target - a bit like trying to do the same in a B-24 or a Lancaster. It was used over the Atlantic for naval and weather reconnaissance.

I know of no combat mission were a He-177 carried out a dive bombing attack, but would be very interested to know if they did.

Edit - neither source mentions any escorts for He 177s over Russia. Germany did not posses a long range escort like the P-51, and Soviet defences against large high level bomber formations seem to have been so weak that they were not required.

-------------------------------------
When the (German) rationalisation drive began it was found that the armed forces had greatly inflated the demand for raw materials by exaggerating the quantity needed for each unit of production. The large firms held substantial stocks of scarce materials, particularly aluminium, which had been allocated on the basis of 16,000 lb for each aircraft, regardless of the fact that a fighter consumed only a quarter of this quantity. Aircraft firms had so much ingot aluminium in store that they used it to produce non-essential goods - ladder, greenhouses, even mosquito nets.

Professor R.J. Overy, 'War and Economy in the Third Reich'

Message Edited on 10/18/0309:07PM by Mr_Nakajima

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:58 PM
Thanks Mr_Nakajima - that was really informative!

Do you have any information about how the Do-217 and He-177 (or for that matter, any other Luftwaffe bomber) were employed in anti-shipping strikes? I've seen pics of both planes carrying glider bombs.

The reason I ask is that I'd like to create a few Med or North Sea convoy patrol missions when the Spit V comes out.

P.S. The source for the "He-177 dive bombing" missions is an old copy of "An illustrated guide to Bombers of WW2" by Bill Gunston. Not much info is provided. He also mentions the Ju-188 as a great anti-shipping aircraft. The only unit he mentions is "1(F)/124" operating from Kirkenes, Norway.

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 12:05 PM
German airplane engineering has appeared to produce real good airplanes, but not in IL-2 and certainly not in FB.

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:00 PM
Oso2121 wrote:
- Do you have any information about how the Do-217 and
- He-177 (or for that matter, any other Luftwaffe
- bomber) were employed in anti-shipping strikes?
- I've seen pics of both planes carrying glider bombs.
-

Both aircraft were tried as torpedo bombers. The Do 217 was tried with a torpedo carried on each side under the inner wing, but was not progressed with as the Ju 88 performed the job better. An He 177A-3 was modified to carry up to four torpedoes, but again the idea was not taken up - in this case because wiser heads prevailed and the He 177 was never asked to fly what would have been very dangerous missions for an aircraft of its size. The Luftwaffe was experimenting with winged aerial torpedoes such as the Blohm and Voss LT 950, but despite suggestions that 25 He 177s be equipped with them the worsening war situation ruled this out (this was post D-Day).

More effectively both aircraft used radio controlled and wire guided bombs against Allied shipping an occasionally ground targets, usually in the Mediterranean or the Bay of Biscay.

For example, 25 He 177s of KG40 attacked the 64 ship SL.139/MKS.230 convoy on 21 November 1943. The convoy was spotted in bad weather and so the He 177s attacked individually using Hs 293s. Two freighters of 8,000 and 10,000 tonnes were hit, but three He 177s lost and a further four damaged. On the 26 November a convoy in the Mediterranean was attacked 21 aircraft from KG40, but six were lost and two crash-landed. They claimed a destroyer and two frigates in return, and 10 Allied fighters, but I don't know if these claims have been verified (German bomber gunners would have suffered from the same problems leading to over-claiming as American gunners), and my books do not say which type of Allied interceptors were involved.

Do 217s operated in a similar manner. Their most successful raid was on 13 September 1943 in the Gulf of Salerno when the cruisers USS Savannah and HMS Uganda were hit, two destroyers damaged and a hospital ship (inadvertently) sunk, but at the cost of four crews.

These operations were all attacks from high altitude - the aircraft attacking the Italian battleship Roma flew in at 6,000m. The need to guide the missiles released must have precluded violent evasive action. Increasingly these missions were flown at dawn or night due to ever growing Allied air superiority, and eventually the losses became unsustainable and operations had to be cancelled. Allied jamming also reduced the effectiveness of the missiles themselves.

In terms of what you want, I can't say if the Spitfire V ever flew against He 177s or Do 217s attacking convoys - my sources just are not detailed enough. Given the attacks on the Italian beachheads though I would not be surprised if Seafires did not engage both bomber types (and of course the earliest Seafires were simply converted Spitfire Vs). My books make no mention of German escorts, though given the limited distances involved they may have been present.

But if you set up battles with several unescorted Do 217s and/or He 177s (the types often flew combined missions) coming in at high altitude being intercepted by Seafires, or Spitfire Vs operating from a forward air strip near a beach head, you would be very close to history.


-------------------------------------
When the (German) rationalisation drive began it was found that the armed forces had greatly inflated the demand for raw materials by exaggerating the quantity needed for each unit of production. The large firms held substantial stocks of scarce materials, particularly aluminium, which had been allocated on the basis of 16,000 lb for each aircraft, regardless of the fact that a fighter consumed only a quarter of this quantity. Aircraft firms had so much ingot aluminium in store that they used it to produce non-essential goods - ladder, greenhouses, even mosquito nets.

Professor R.J. Overy, 'War and Economy in the Third Reich'

-------------------------------------
When the (German) rationalisation drive began it was found that the armed forces had greatly inflated the demand for raw materials by exaggerating the quantity needed for each unit of production. The large firms held substantial stocks of scarce materials, particularly aluminium, which had been allocated on the basis of 16,000 lb for each aircraft, regardless of the fact that a fighter consumed only a quarter of this quantity. Aircraft firms had so much ingot aluminium in store that they used it to produce non-essential goods - ladder, greenhouses, even mosquito nets.

Professor R.J. Overy, 'War and Economy in the Third Reich'

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:38 PM
Here a list I can recommend if you are interested in the subject.

Dornier Do 217-317-417
Eine Luftfahrtgeschichtliche Dokumentation
Manfred Griehl
Motorbuch Verlag
1987
3-613-01199-9

Heinkel He 177, 277, 274
Manfred Griehl
Joachim Dressel
Airlife
1998
1-85310-364-0

Kampfgeschwader 51 "Edelweiss"
Eine Chronik aus Dokumenten und Berichten 1937-1945
Wolfgang Dierich
Motorbuch Verlag
1991
3-87943-272-4

Kampfgeschwader 53 "Legion Condor"
Eine Chronik - Berichte, Erlebnisse, Dokumenten 1936-1945
Keinz Kiehl
Motorbuch Verlag
1996
3-87943-947-8

Kampfgeschwader 55 "Greif"
Eine Chronik aus Dokumenten und Berichten 1937-1945
Wolfgang Dierich
Motorbuch Verlag
1994
3-87943-340-2

The First Pathfinders
The Operational History of Kampfgruppe 100, 1939-1941
Kenneth Wakefield
Crécy Books
1992
0-947554-20-3

Bloody Biscay
The History of V Gruppe/Kampfgeschwader 40
Chris Goss
Crécy Books
1997
0-947554-62-9


Achtung - Torpedos Los!
Der Strategische und operative Einsatz des Kampfgeschwaders 26 Das Torpedogeschwader der deutschen Luftwaffe im Zweiten Weltkrieg
Rudi Schmidt
Karl Müller Verlag
1990
3-86070-802-3

Der Luftkrieg in Europa 1939-1941
Die Eins¤tze des Kampfgeschwaders 2 gegen Polen, Frankreich, England auf dem Balkan und in Rußland
Ulf Balke
Bechtermünz Verlag
1997
3-86047-591-6

Der Luftkrieg in Europa 1941-1945
Die Eins¤tze des Kampfgeschwaders 2 gegen England und über dem Deutschen Reich
Ulf Balke
Bechtermünz Verlag
1997
3-86047-591-6

Kampfgeschwader "General Wever" 4
Eine Geschichte aus Kriegstagebüchern, Dokumenten und Berichten 1939-1945
Karl Gundelach
Motorbuch Verlag
1978
3-87943-572-3

Kampfflugzeuge und Aufkl¤rer von 1935 bis heute
Die Deutsche Luftfahrt 15
Roderich Cescotti
Bernard & Graefe Verlag
1989
3-7637-5293-5

Heinkel He 177
Warpaint Series No. 33
Kev Darling
Hall Park
2001
n/a

Dornier Do 217
Warpaint Series No. 24
Jerry Scutts
Hall Park
1999
n/a

Pfadfinder
Luftwaffe Pathfinder Operations Over Britain, 1940-44
Ken Wakefield
Tempus
1999
0-7524-1692-8


Der Einsatz der deutschen Luftwaffe über dem Atlantik und der Nordsee 1939 - 1945
S¶nke Neitzel
Bernard & Graefe Verlag
1995
3-7637-5938-7


Ruy "SPADES" Horta
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta
-----------------------------
Il-2 - VEF JG 77
-----------------------------
'95-02 - WB Jagdgeschwader 53
'99-00 - DoA Jagdstaffel 18
-----------------------------
The rest is history...

http:\\www.xs4all.nl\~rhorta\brother.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:57 PM
Brief summary of 217 & 177 careers:

Do-217E - first employed clandestine surveillance USSR early 1940; bomber versions served mainly Western Europe, 1941-43; particularly so called "Baedecker" raids on UK, spring-summer 1942, Bath, York, Exeter, Canterbury; also employed anti-shipping over North Sea and Biscay; Aug 43 combat debut of Do217E-5 w/ 2 Hs 293A missiles on underwing racks; minimal success against Allied warships in Biscay, 2 vessels damaged.

Do-217K/M - combat debut autumn 42; limited service night-bombing role over UK by both K & M models, culminating in Op "Steinbock" attacks on London early 1944; missile carrying K-2s sank BB Roma off Corsica, 9 Sep 43; subsequent ops against Anzio & Salerno beach-heads, sinking a cruiser and destroyer, and damaging a battleship and 2 more cruisers; Summer 1944 participated Normandy campaign, using missiles to attack invasion ports and Allied held bridges; final employment closing weeks of war similarly against Oder bridges in last-ditch attempt to halt Soviet advance on Berlin

He-177 - combat debut summer 1942, sporadic bombing raids on UK; participated supply missions to Stalingrad early 1943; also operated in anti-shipping role over Atlantic and Med (with Hs293 missiles) winter 1943-44; reappeared over UK during Op "Steinbock" Jan-May 1944; employed against Soviets, summer 1944, missions ranging from massed 90-bomber raids down to individual low-level attacks on Russian armour.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 03:10 PM
zugfuhrer wrote:
- German airplane engineering has appeared to produce
- real good airplanes, but not in IL-2 and certainly
- not in FB.
-
-

the aircraft engineering. well, yes they had some great designs, but i don't see any problems with FB. The OKL and german technical high command especially under Udet had some strange ideas about how to use AC and which AC is important. In the beginning of the war the LW had some good designs but later on they stopped creating new stuff because they thought all they need is support for groundtroups and attack AC. that's why the germans stopped developing a 4 engine long range bomber (projects started around the time the US started the B17 project in 1935) but the germans wanted every plane to divebomb. still some 4 engines were in dev. until Wever(i think that was his name) died. then 4 engine and level bombing plans were stopped. that's why Heinkel was forced to chang plans for the He177 which actually IS a 4 engine bomber but they had to put 2 engines into one lol which was the main cause for problems with this plane. further on they didn't run big attacks too often. the bomber groups were spread all over the frontlines instead of having a seperate bomber command like the brits had. Hitler himself said he needs attack planes not defense planes that's why lots of new types were delayed or used in a wrong role. The on board radar was used 3!!! years AFTER it was developed by a scientist cause the high command said the war will be over anyway until the new planes are fully developed. same goes for the Me262. and when production of Me262 finally started Hitler ordered that they have to be bombers instead of fighters cause he said he can only win the war if he destroys not if he defends!!!! so you are right when you say the germans had some great designs but they did not use them when they had them cause the main opinion was that it'd be better to produce more of the old AC than new ones. that's why we have so many of those crappy late war 109s.

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg