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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:36 AM
I am not sure if anyone has played Battle of Brittain or Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffles but they were better games. Even though the graphics were not really on par due to the games being from 5 years ago or more, they were very well made and thought out.

In both BOB and SWOTL, the tide of the war was not linear. Each mission actually meant something and effected the outcome of the entire game. They were based on a "Can you change history" type of attitude. The eb-and-flow of the game worked like a single game of Day of Defeat but on a much larger scale obviously. You had a large map depicting some important area during a key time in th war. Time was about the same and so were the planes. Germans on one side and Allies on the other. You flew a career on either side and were assigned missions that you could pick from a list. All other missions were flown by the computer. Those missions were flown at the same time all over the map as you were flying yours on that day in the game and to some degree, your success on your specific mission influenced thier missions. When you arrived back at base, you checked the victory and defeat board to see how the other missions fared (quite simular to your level of success for the most part). As you flew more and more missions against bombers and fighters and ground targets the war progresed strategically because some missions you decided your side would not fly at all! You controlled like a commander and had only so many pilots and hardware available to spread around. You actually started to care which pilots did what and felt bad if you lost a good one. You flew as any pilot you wanted and thier rank and abilities increased (leveled up) with each succesfull flight. You would get a pilot to a point (by flying as him and doing a good job if you could) where you could leave hime in charge of his own squadron and then you go and fly missions as other pilots. The computer AI'd that pilot based on how you flew him.

As the game progressed, if you were doing well, you were owning more and more of enemy territory and pushing the front farther away from your area and eventually win by gaining a certain amount of enemy territory. It was all very strategic and defensive. You would, say, first decide to run a series of bombing raids with stukas (spelling?) and take out radio towers (so that fighter activity would lessen in that area) as well as following up with wrecking airstrips. Then run large bomber runs with heavy fighter escorts to lay the smack down on installations and towns.

I know I am rambling here but I miss that depth of play. Are there any new games designed that way now or comming soon? If this IL2 and FB had that kind of depth, I would quit my job and play all day! Heh heh.

IL2 so far just feels like a tactical/technical simulation with no real end result other than to do th best you can and improve. I miss BOB and SWOTL.

Anyone else here feel the same?

Charles.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:36 AM
I am not sure if anyone has played Battle of Brittain or Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffles but they were better games. Even though the graphics were not really on par due to the games being from 5 years ago or more, they were very well made and thought out.

In both BOB and SWOTL, the tide of the war was not linear. Each mission actually meant something and effected the outcome of the entire game. They were based on a "Can you change history" type of attitude. The eb-and-flow of the game worked like a single game of Day of Defeat but on a much larger scale obviously. You had a large map depicting some important area during a key time in th war. Time was about the same and so were the planes. Germans on one side and Allies on the other. You flew a career on either side and were assigned missions that you could pick from a list. All other missions were flown by the computer. Those missions were flown at the same time all over the map as you were flying yours on that day in the game and to some degree, your success on your specific mission influenced thier missions. When you arrived back at base, you checked the victory and defeat board to see how the other missions fared (quite simular to your level of success for the most part). As you flew more and more missions against bombers and fighters and ground targets the war progresed strategically because some missions you decided your side would not fly at all! You controlled like a commander and had only so many pilots and hardware available to spread around. You actually started to care which pilots did what and felt bad if you lost a good one. You flew as any pilot you wanted and thier rank and abilities increased (leveled up) with each succesfull flight. You would get a pilot to a point (by flying as him and doing a good job if you could) where you could leave hime in charge of his own squadron and then you go and fly missions as other pilots. The computer AI'd that pilot based on how you flew him.

As the game progressed, if you were doing well, you were owning more and more of enemy territory and pushing the front farther away from your area and eventually win by gaining a certain amount of enemy territory. It was all very strategic and defensive. You would, say, first decide to run a series of bombing raids with stukas (spelling?) and take out radio towers (so that fighter activity would lessen in that area) as well as following up with wrecking airstrips. Then run large bomber runs with heavy fighter escorts to lay the smack down on installations and towns.

I know I am rambling here but I miss that depth of play. Are there any new games designed that way now or comming soon? If this IL2 and FB had that kind of depth, I would quit my job and play all day! Heh heh.

IL2 so far just feels like a tactical/technical simulation with no real end result other than to do th best you can and improve. I miss BOB and SWOTL.

Anyone else here feel the same?

Charles.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:52 AM
I do have a similar opinion to the campaign element of FB, BUT the simulator is just too damned good in every other respect to make any real difference to my enjoyment of the game.

The trouble is that a balance has to be struck between the realism in such a games campaign and making the game playable.

For a simulator built around such (attempted!) levels of historical accuracy in flight/damage modelling etc, it is not really possible to implement the sort of gamey campaign engine that equates to great playability, it just doesn't fit into the ethos of the project.

I suppose it would be nice if a sort of gamey campaign generator could be implemented to sit along side the existing one, thereby satisfying both camps.

Ta ta,

OJ

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:55 AM
Try like 10-12 years ago /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The depth of the SWOTL campaign was really great. My favorite strategy was to attack airfields then aircraft factories. If I did well then the numbers of fighters trying to stop us in the next mission was reduced. Really nice cause and effect.

Yes, in answer to your question. These days there just seems to be lessons lost and not learned by game developers. They refuse to intergrate other classic games greatest features????? Strange but true. However, every once and awhile a game comes along and hits the nail on the head in more than 90% of the features. FB is close to that despite the weak FMB(compared to Freespace, Janes F-18etc.) and lack of depth that a dynamic campaign brings to the table. I do mis SWOTL and always will.

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:59 AM
Same thing applies to just about every game or sim available. As the graphics have improved the intracacies of the gameplay or campaign modes have been marginalised.

Market research must indicate that the majority of buyers want eye-candy. And if that's what sells the games then that's what the corporate publishers (Ubi, Microsoft etc) will make sure we get.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:20 AM
How much could one plane affect the out come of the war ( besides the Enola Gay that is )

Having said that CFS3 has a similar campain

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:23 AM
I do miss the ability to pick whatever a/c from whatever era and fly against whatever other a/c. I had a ball in SWOTL going up in my P-51 against early MIGs and such. This sim would be so much more if we had that open kind of option. Respectfully, I completely understand that this sim is historical and I know why Oleg has stuck with this. But I do miss those things. I can hardly wait for some of the other add-on a/c to get here. My Lightning will come soon, I can almost taste it!

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:44 AM
- Market research must indicate that the majority of
- buyers want eye-candy. And if that's what sells the
- games then that's what the corporate publishers
- (Ubi, Microsoft etc) will make sure we get.

Screenshots sell games - that's why there's more attention paid to rendering than animation in most games.

If you want gameplay, buy less pretty games. Combat Mission (www.battlefront.com (http://www.battlefront.com)) and Steel Beasts (www.esimgames.com (http://www.esimgames.com)) would be a good start. Steel Beasts couldn't get a publisher originally - it was sold over the internet, but was successful because it was a good game.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:25 AM
- For a simulator built around such (attempted!)
- levels of historical accuracy in flight/damage
- modelling etc, it is not really possible to
- implement the sort of gamey campaign engine that
- equates to great playability, it just doesn't fit
- into the ethos of the project.

Did you play BOB? It was supposed to be historically accurate for the period it depicted. It also had a very believable flight model and, in my memory of it, had many of the same flight rules physics invloved unless to turned down the realism.

Charles.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:41 AM
YEAH!

I LOVED the BOB and SWOTL campaign generator! As pointed out though, Oleg has opted for the more realistic "history can't be changed by Rambo alone" approach.

The Swotl/BoB campaigns definitely added a level of fun through strategic planning (bombing specific strategic industries "we'll be skipping Schweinfurt in this alternate universe fellas" "Yayyyyy!").

The other point you make:

"You flew as any pilot you wanted and thier rank and abilities increased (leveled up) with each succesfull flight. You would get a pilot to a point (by flying as him and doing a good job if you could) where you could leave hime in charge of his own squadron and then you go and fly missions as other pilots. The computer AI'd that pilot based on how you flew him."

I totally agree with this- It added a whole level of "psychological immersion" because you really started to care for the pilots you'd invested time in... When Hauptmann Von Poopypantz, who you carefully nurtured in the art of aerial combat for 15 hours, goes down in flames- you care (well, I did /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Apart from that, IL2/FB are awesome and its campaign generator is faithful to its design philosophy.

I also miss those screens when you won a medal or got a promotion-

Thanks for posting! Brought back good memories of taking the Fortress out, bombing Hamburg, dodging flack, strafing an airfield on the way back and having to limp back to the Channel on two engines /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:39 AM
froazan wrote:

- Did you play BOB? It was supposed to be historically
- accurate for the period it depicted. It also had a
- very believable flight model and, in my memory of
- it, had many of the same flight rules physics
- invloved unless to turned down the realism.
-
- Charles.


I don't doubt that at all. But really it is down to the ethos of the developer.

Oleg Maddox knows when he is developing a game that he is catering for a small and demanding market. With the feedback he gets I think it unlikely that he'd feel comfortable pushing a product that had the gamey elements we've been talking about.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:02 AM
One mission isn't going to change much on the eastern front. The atmosphere FB is trying to create is this: You are small and insignificant. what the hell, stay on leader's course. Be sure! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:46 AM
Baloban wrote:
- One mission isn't going to change much on the
- eastern front.

I like IL2. Don't get me wrong. I guess I did not explain BOB right. It was not specifically your mission that made a difference. The game engine used your mission as a guidline for the 12 other sorties flown on that same day by AI pilots in real time. If you sucked, they sucked. Miss a key target on a bombing run and then probably 8 of the other 12 did as well. It was kinda cool. And one mission was far from enough to change the tide of war. It took several to make a dent in the whole scheme of things. It as the kind of game you played for hours a night for months. It rocked that way.

As for IL2, I am enjoying it much more now that I have gone to full realism mode. I have to navigate by the ground now. Also, I have set up the sound to take advantage of my Audigy and Raddy 9700 Pro. I just set the Video to Maximum OpenGL settings and enabled detailed S3tC textures and WOW! Seweeet! I can't wait to get FB.

However, if someone modded this game to include the BOB mission system, it would be unstoppable! I'd be a gaming crack addict again.

As for the guy that brung up limping home in your bomber trying to make the air port on one engine and a jammed flap, YA! that was the funnest part of the game! Or should I say that that was a game in itself? BOB would not end the mission until you were on the ground or dead. There was a stake at not making it back. You not only lost that pilot and plane but it would mean you just lost a dozen of those babies and some of your best pilots along the way!

If this Oleg guy forced himeself to put up with the graphics and played a week of BOB, his next project would blow everyones mind! Or he could sell the FB engine to Lucasarts and let them slap t together. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Charles.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:51 AM
Well, I've heard that Lucasarts has a project for a new SWOTL, and Lawrence Holland (the guy after BOB and SWOTL) is involved in it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Maybe Oleg's instructions to 3rd Party modellers of making late war planes and projects is closely related to this. Maybe he wants to compete with Lucasarts, or profit from the previsible interest on the topic.

Anyway, good news for us all. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:42 AM
Baloban wrote:
The atmosphere FB is trying to
- create is this: You are small and insignificant.
- what the hell, stay on leader's course. Be
- sure! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


LO freakin L.


I remember playing SWOTL when I was very young. I sucked so bad i would often have to cheat when playing the campaign. I would assign a group of bombers to attack a target and then order myself to fly a "fighter sweep" below them. As the Luftwaffe tore the hapless bombers to shreads high above, I would be happily pounding the target in my P-47 with no worries. Well, flak maybe, but certainly less worries than the bombers coming down in pieces. For me, SWOTL will always be the best flight sim ever. It had everything in it and then some.


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fluke39
08-27-2003, 11:18 AM
froazan wrote:
- I am not sure if anyone has played Battle of
- Brittain or Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffles

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

the Luftwaffles? - who are they then ? some special german airforce trained in the art of waffle making? - or is it about the top secret cookers and friers the german chefs used on long bombing raids? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


sorry that really made me laugh - no offence- or was it intentional? - i can't help noticing the "L" key is nowhere near the "f" or "e" key on the keyboard? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:31 AM
I got SWOTL about three months ago and haven't played that
much. But if the SWOTL-feeling could be implemented in FB
it would be vastly better that it now is.

But for new SWOTLs, I think this one sounds promising: www.acefury.com (http://www.acefury.com)
It sais that your actions affect the outcome. Fight bad
and you lose terrain, fight good and you gain terrain.
And three or maybe four novel are said to be released along
with the game.
Wonder who's writing them?

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:56 AM
"If this Oleg guy forced himeself to put up with the graphics and played a week of BOB, his next project would blow everyones mind"

Unfortunately, this isn't so. Interviews have show that Oleg wants to have less aircraft, but modelled more.



Side note: good graphics isn't really the essence of this topic - you can have great graphics and have what is spoken of above.

That logic is so flawed "if it had worse graphics it could have better play" ?????


Snap out of it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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michapma
08-27-2003, 02:00 PM
I never understood FB to be a strategy game. It is a rather a very good tactical game.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

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69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:09 PM
If you liked BoB then head to:

http://www.bob-ma.org/index.php

Many improvments to the game already (with version .96 and the new art mod pack) and with the upcoming .97 version there is a new rendering engine and it looks dynamite! Check out the screenies here:

http://www.bob-ma.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index&do=showgall&gid=19

and here:

http://www.bob-ma.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=49


I have just gotten into BoB and find it very fun and extremely challenging to play and I can't wait for the new .97 release!

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:39 PM
Yha, the camp was cool in SWOTL and Their Finest Hour...Bur what do you guys think bout hte camp in Rowan's Battle Of Britain??I would like to see something like this in IL-2....Some strategy wxcept great simulation.....

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It's all very well
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Is to live here in Hell

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:15 PM
I played a lot BoB(Their Finest Hour) and SWTOL. If you remember, SWOTL actually had two types of long careers. The tour of duty (little like FB campaigns) and the real campaign. The campaign was the system were you directed the whole air war.

But is here anyone who played Battle Hawks 1942 (end of 1980s), the mother of BOB and SWOTL?? (Also from LucasFilm) I still play it sometimes with WinUAE (Windows Amiga emulator)

However the realism was a bad. I slaugtered Spitfires with my Me110 in BOB and shooting 7-9 B-17s with a 109 in every mission is not very realistic. But still they were the best flight sims at that time (in my opinion).

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:43 PM
man, I feel I kinda missed out on that. My first PC game was "Falcon3.0". LOL, I bought the Gold pack and still play it!

I got a copy of SWOTL but never made it work, now I can only dream about what I missed. Untill I find a reely old PC that is.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:57 PM
VOL_Jon wrote:
- man, I feel I kinda missed out on that. My first PC
- game was "Falcon3.0". LOL, I bought the Gold pack
- and still play it!
-
- I got a copy of SWOTL but never made it work, now I
- can only dream about what I missed. Untill I find a
- reely old PC that is.
-
-

Get a DOSBox (search in WWW) and see if it works. It can run DOS games which does NOT use protected mode or VESA display. I managed to run Colonization with it in WinXP. However you need probably a fast cpu.

However be warned - the game uses 320x200 (256 colors?) and that is UGLY, especially if you have a large monitor.

I have also played all Falcons between 1-3. F1 and F2 in Amiga and F3.0 in PC. Doesn't it bother you that those B-52s keep crashing into the ground all the time (a well known bug in Falcon3.0)?

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:10 PM
LOL,yhea.

I think thats fixed in the patch? Or the Gold Version?


Oh well, so what SWOTL is only 256 colors, i don't mind. It's all about the gameplay, not the graphics!

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:18 PM
The "new" SWOTL looks (by LucasArts -forgot the name) like it has really dated (read crap) graphics- I think it's supposed to be for consoles. It also has a cheesy story-line. I'm going to give it a miss.

BoB and Swotl were definitely cool (but arcadish- the damage you could wreak with a p-47 was CRAZY), but I can't see how I could possibly go back to playing them... IL2/FB are superior in every way, with the exception of the
"strategic" campaign.

Cheers all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Cold_gambler

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:31 PM
Recon_609IAP wrote:

- Side note: good graphics isn't really the essence
- of this topic - you can have great graphics and have
- what is spoken of above.
-
- That logic is so flawed "if it had worse graphics it
- could have better play" ?????
-
-
- Snap out of it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- S!
- 609IAP_Recon

No- one said you couldn't have both. The point that the original post was making is that as more time has been spent developing the graphical portion of games and sims, the complexity of the gameplay has been receiving less attention and has therefore become more basic.

Although the campaign mode in FB is probably one of the best around today, it is still basic compared to games of 10 years ago. This is all the more suprising considering the technological improvements available to present day programmers.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:50 PM
The thing I remember most about SWOTL is that I could win the campaign game as the American in only two missions and I'd do it flying alone in a rocket armed P-47.

BOB was a different tale. I used to play it for hours and dreamed of the day when we could do it multiplayer, including have a gunner, and have a wide range of ground targets. In other words, while playing BOB, I dreamed of Il-2.

This one is the GREATEST of ALL!

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 12:11 AM
If you make the SWOTL work I can tell a little abuse.

At tleast in the original version (don't know any new STOWL the other guy talked about). SWOTL had lousy AI planes. Often when I was returning home with my P-38 etc and I was chased by German fighters, I dived close to ground level. When I flew at around 10ft the enemies always fired over me. The AI never seemed to fly below 50ft (except when landing). I tried this in EAW and Il2FB, but I quickly learned it didn't work there /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 06:01 AM
"the Luftwaffles? - who are they then ? some special german airforce trained in the art of waffle making? - or is it about the top secret cookers and friers the german chefs used on long bombing raids?"


"sorry that really made me laugh - no offence- or was it intentional? - i can't help noticing the "L" key is nowhere near the "f" or "e" key on the keyboard?"

It was intentional because I can't spell Luftwafa. See what I mean!?

Charles.



Message Edited on 08/28/0305:03AM by froazan

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 06:06 AM
johnmilner wrote:
- If you liked BoB then head to:
-
- http://www.bob-ma.org/index.php
-
-
- Many improvments to the game already (with version
- .96 and the new art mod pack) and with the upcoming
- .97 version there is a new rendering engine and it
- looks dynamite! Check out the screenies here:
-
- <a
- href="http://www.bob-ma.org/modules.php?op=modload
- &name=My_eGallery&file=index&do=showgall&gid=19"
- target=_blank>http://www.bob-ma.org/modules.php?op
- =modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index&do=showgall&g
- id=19</a>
-
-
- and here:
-
- <a
- href="http://www.bob-ma.org/modules.php?name=News&
- file=article&sid=49"
- target=_blank>http://www.bob-ma.org/modules.php?na
- me=News&file=article&sid=49</a>
-
-
-
- I have just gotten into BoB and find it very fun and
- extremely challenging to play and I can't wait for
- the new .97 release!
-
-

Holy crap! Is that the original BOB made over?

Charles.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:10 PM
Essentially it is. Rowan's released the source code for BoB and talented programmers have been working on it ever since to upgrade and improve things. You really need to give BoB a whirl if you used to play it, with the current upgrades things are really great, with version .97 (the screenies shown) things will be AWESOME. The proposed released date for version .97 and the new art pack is Battle of Britain Day: September 14.

BoB is far from arcadish, set things to realistic and see how tough it is to pilot a bird up and confront up to 700 planes in the air at once.
The FM's are great, landings and take-off's are a real challenge and the enemy AI is very smart.

I went up against 90 Stutka's with 50 Me109's as top fighter cover and while I managed to down a Stutka, I had to fight damn hard to keep the Me's off my a$$.

IL2 is fun, but I still like to vary what I play and not get IL2 tunnel vision.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 06:21 PM
johnmilner - sounds good, makes it tough though when only 2 or 3 people are playing online?

That seems to dictate what is being played

S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 06:53 PM
There is quite a large BoB community over at SimHQ, and I have yet to ask them about online play as I have been having so much fun in one player mode. Thanks for that reminder though I should definately ask them what the MP situation is with BoB and if they play in a group somewhere!

Flying through a melee of hundreds of aircraft is a sight to behold and I would love it if this were possible with any Battle of Britain plans that might develop for IL2.