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View Full Version : So.. is that it? Do we just roll over and say frack it all?



Bearcat99
10-24-2007, 08:51 PM
Here's the skinny folks... Our sim has been compromised. Like it or not... the facts are as they are. One of it's strongest features, it's integrity has been compromised and the solution to the problem is a big question mark.. after all... if they could finally hack the sim... than any kind of protection might just be child's play. Now if 1C comes up with a fix... great problem solved.. but folks... what do we do... what do we do if the fix gets hacked.... ?

I put forth to all of you a proposition. This community is, in my humble and limited opinion one of the smartest - technically, artistically and academically - most diverse and most loyal gaming communities on the net. Oh sure... we love history and we debate as well as we can with the limits of this forum some of the moral and philosophical issues that make men go to war... along with the technical pros and cons of various weapons.. We have our over 40 juveniles and our under 30 sages.. we have true artists here.... guys that literally create masterpieces in binary form.. and share them with the rest of the community.

So what do we do..? Our sim has been compromised... for some of us.. and before some smart @ss comes along and says something like "Geeeze it's a game man get a life... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif "
Many of us have lives.. most of us .... in fact for may of us.. this sim has become our temporary escape from the day to day grind of our lives (not that it is bad.. but let's face it.. "In the weat of your brow... etc. etc..." ... of putting food on the table... clothes on backs.... etc.... This sim has become the thing we do that is just for us..... our fun.

This online community... here... at SHQ, SOH... Hyperlobby.... and the sister communities of other simmers.. and you all know that we are a unique breed right? We aren't like other gamers, us flight simmers... not better... just.. different.... but we are unique. Most of us wopuld rahter have something as realistic as it can be... Thats why we have the whole 1% dealio in CFS.. realism.. realism...

And now this sim, our sim.. has been compromised...

I must say that this community has always made me proud for the most part... we didn't have mods... we didn't have hacks.. we didn't have cheats... but what we did have was things like the U.Q.M.G., VAC, IL2STAB, IL2 Manager. IL2 Mat, The DCG, Sturmolog, IL2 sticks... and more... all made because of the sim....

Well now our sim is compromised.... so what do we do?

WHAT do we do?

Do we just toss in the towel and give up? Fly offline? Only fly with friends (Friends don't let friends fly hacked... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )?

Do we succumb to the hysteria and start to label every one with a bad ping a cheater? What do we do with known cheaters? How should we deal with them? This was never an issue.. but it is now.. so what doe we do?


I propose that we stay the course...
That we police ourselves...
That we use the resources at our disposal to discourage cheaters and try to help any and all newcomers. I propose that we accept the reality and handle this like adults and not let this bad thing... this unfortunate turn of events, this hack of our sim turn into anything miore than what it is... the way of the genre.

Let's be grateful that it has lasted this long... When you see someone online and you just know he is a cheat... don't call him names.. don't clutter up the chat.. make a track and watch it a few times.. when you are sure that you are seeing what you thought you were... then just spread the word... If we discourage this type of behavior we may still see it but hopefully it wont be the end of it all...




I'm just venting... bear with me... sorry for the rant.

LW_lcarp
10-24-2007, 09:00 PM
I dont really see it happening bearcat. Everyone is running around yelling the sim is falling the sim is falling and nobody wants to do anything about it other then whine on the forum that they seen a video on youtube of this cheat and that cheat.

I say when a cheat is caught online he gets publicly tharashed on the forums and his name pasted for all servers to ban. Treat him like a peice of ****. They will go away.

Rememer GT how he finally went away with his empty threats. He was publicly humiliated and ran away with his tail between his legs.

GreyFox5
10-24-2007, 09:04 PM
You have a reason to vent.

I basically fly with the folks I know. Others are welcome to fly in my coops but I'm in a Just say no mode and have not altered my version of the game.

As much as others tell me how cool the mod is - the sound is what is so cool from what I hear I want to keep the integrity of the game.

My vent there ya go.

It would be cool if a patch were made and the sounds were kept IMHO.

See ya online!

Airmail109
10-24-2007, 09:09 PM
You could flood the net with mods that kill your computer. However Id advise against this, you could get slammed in jail. Instead you could make harmless but annoying mods that just pork the gameplay, make stupid sounds etc, or EVEN oh yes this is a brilliant idea. A sound mod that announced to everyone in the lobby youve joined, that your a cheater.

(Im joking really, absolutely do not do this boys and girls http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif)

Divine-Wind
10-24-2007, 09:16 PM
Count me in. Even if you and I are the only ones who'll see this through, Bearcat, I'll try and stick with you as much as I can. I've got your 6 covered!

Airmail109
10-24-2007, 09:18 PM
Im going to fly at ubi now, its not like those newbis know how to cheat

n00b killing yaaaayyyyy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Seriously id be willing to fly with you Bearcat with some others I can trust when Ive got a new pc, can keep the good times going then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Swivet
10-24-2007, 09:27 PM
Rgr that Bear....Police ourselves, fly with integrity..This is where this community is gonna seperate the men from the boys, and these mod/hacks/cracks/cheats are the beginning of the end...I could see if this thing was released by the company and personally encrypted by Oleg/1C/Maddox or whatever...Then fine.

The 99th dont use and will NEVER use any fecal matter like this! When we kick your butt, we will kick it fair and square....period! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Monterey13
10-24-2007, 09:35 PM
You know I'm with you. I have always enjoyed flying with the 99th.

Airmail109
10-24-2007, 09:36 PM
Lets start a PM list of guys that would like to fly together http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DrHerb
10-24-2007, 09:58 PM
Can I just say that, yes I admit i have and used the sound "hack", "mod" or whatever its name may be, there are some of us out there that use it and do not play around with flight models or damage models or what have you. The people who hacked the fm's/dm's A: downloaded a utility that opens the .sfs and other files and B: had the ****** to screw around with these settings and started the rift in the online community, and furthermore this thread in my opinion is going to tear that rift further apart. I know im going to catch alot of flak for this but I think its a full load of fecal matter that there are people here that claim "oh Ive never downloaded it and tried it out" all im saying is there are decent people out there with yes a different (and imo better sounding) experience who have no intentions of playing with codes and whatnot.

Bearcat99
10-24-2007, 10:10 PM
Be all that as it may be ... The thing is that the sound HACK might be nice and all.. but the fact that other stuff can be altered other than sound... even if the sounds are great... means that it will never make it to my HD... I would like to get new sounds.... but for me... the other stuff that comes in that bag just makes it not worth picking up.

This thread won't tear the community apart either. This community will get over this. Sure things will change.. but we will persevere... It all depends on what we do.

F19_Orheim
10-24-2007, 10:13 PM
Originally posted byDrHerb
...that claim "oh Ive never downloaded it and tried it out" ...

yep, never downloadad and never tried it out... wow... that is obviously a piece of cr*p? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif gotta love the logic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Originally posted by Bearcat99:
...This thread won't tear the community apart either...

nope, but you will have to lock it soon... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
10-24-2007, 10:24 PM
For heaven's sakes if the people who play MAW online can do so, I think a way will be found to shore up IL-2. Those in the past who suggested subscription services for online were probably on the right track. It would back up an honor system. Hack the game and you are finis. Would be a good way of weeding out people who aren't serious about good play, too.

LEXX_Luthor
10-24-2007, 10:27 PM
Herb::
I know im going to catch alot of flak for this
Possibly not as much as the past week or so. Both the Offline and Online play communities have firmly stood their ground in the face of the manic accusations.

With humoid vs humoid gameplay, FB/PF becomes real life social interaction, and not just a 'lite' simulation of social interaction. What we are seeing now is acceptance about having to start working at building real life online play communities. Those who play the sim as such online (Pa rnzoli's "inbreds" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) have never worried about cheating, but they don't poast here on the forum that much.

Bearcat99
10-24-2007, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
nope, but you will have to lock it soon... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nope.. Ill just delete the offending threads and warn the posters.. we need to come up with a plan if we are to get past this with flying colors.. (pun intended)..

F19_Orheim
10-24-2007, 10:30 PM
I have faith in MG, they'll fix it... be sure.

Snoball7614
10-24-2007, 10:47 PM
A hack you say... where can i get this hack? Maybe I'll finally be able to shoot down those aces on my six!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif Jokes aside, i believe your right bearcat. The only thing thats going to preserve the integrity and fun of this game is to keep trudging through the bullsh!t of the very few who want to ruin the game.

Divine-Wind
10-24-2007, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
For heaven's sakes if the people who play MAW online can do so, I think a way will be found to shore up IL-2. Those in the past who suggested subscription services for online were probably on the right track. It would back up an honor system. Hack the game and you are finis. Would be a good way of weeding out people who aren't serious about good play, too.
It would also be a good way of weeding out half the community. For me Il-2 is a stress release, a way to relax, kick back and have fun. I'm paying anything on a monthly basis for that.

Just my 2 cents.

Feathered_IV
10-24-2007, 10:57 PM
I got through the Forgotten Battles seperate install, PF standalone and Boonty Box debacle without getting hysterical. Just this once I would like to loose it completely.

foxyboy1964
10-24-2007, 10:59 PM
I have never played online, but if I was an onliner I wouldn't be too worried about cheats. There are LOADS of people on this forum who I know I would trust. Why dont the onliners just PM each other and make arrangements to meet up?

Loco-S
10-24-2007, 11:11 PM
Hi Bearcat!, hy ya'll, I personally think any cheating should be banned, period ( IP address ban), I have enough hard time trying to get a single kill on in game settings to have to deal with somebody flying a turbojet powered I-16 while I fly a Me-109..he he...why to break down the trust we have on what we can and what we cant do?

it comes down to: FUN, for me this sim is fun because its as good as it can be with what info is available, the fact that you fly ( figuratively) what the real pilots had, no more, no less ( well...what about the FW190 angle of view/lower windscreen frame?.....bait), although sometimes I get really frustrated when I cant catch those pesky P-38's..or the dreaded 10 LA5-FN on ace settings ( they shoot me out of the sky in less than a minute)...and I keep trying.. its fun....what do you think?

Divine-Wind
10-24-2007, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I got through the Forgotten Battles seperate install, PF standalone and Boonty Box debacle without getting hysterical. Just this once I would like to loose it completely.
I hear ya... I'm trying hard myself not to implode. Just think how tough it's gotta be on the mods...

stalkervision
10-24-2007, 11:27 PM
I say just stick a large heavy duty big GI "raincoaat" over your "joysick" and go for the Gusto! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and remember to hose down your flight gear with a heavy duty car cleaner after each session of fun.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

-HH-Quazi
10-24-2007, 11:31 PM
It is my hope that Outlaw proceeds with his efforts to write an app for the server side & client side to use. Sparx has already expressed an interest in testing it out on their servers (I got this info from a m8 in another thread that said he had spoke with him about it). It's just that I haven't seen nor heard anything from Outlaw since he started that thread to get opinions. I hope he is still on the same page & willing to put this app together.

Until then, like BC has said, we need to just get by the best we can. Be cautious & like Dagnabit posted in another thread, do some low level recon, make tracks, & engage pilots that you suspect of cheating in laid back conversation being careful not to reveal your true motives. Of course I believe we will find that some will be arrogant enough to flat out admit to using tweaked FM's because it is easy enough to use another name on HL to fly under. Would be nice if that wasn't the case though. I have never used an alias on HL. I login as Quazi & always have. But I do not think there are many that do this.

Has anyone spoken with Jiri & got his opinion about it? I wonder if there is anything he could do from his end to help? And even if there was, I wonder if he would be willing to? I don't know the man or I would have already been in contact with him.

LEBillfish
10-25-2007, 12:21 AM
Frankly....I expect the rare hacker........WHat really, I mean really ticks me off though are those many players who knowing what damage this can cause from cheating to the honest being accused of cheating to so blatantly support it, go out of their way to slam those trying to set the tone of an anti cheat mindset all so they can have the one thing we ALL wanted......

YET...realizing the ramifications the responsible ones as delivered shun it....Shame on those folks, its the hackers nature, the ignorant simply don't know better...Yet those that do and promote it are simply shameful.

msalama
10-25-2007, 12:42 AM
Well I'm sure someone will come up with a protection scheme of some kind sooner or later. Would try my hand on it as well if I still had the skillz... but alas, I've been out of the SW engineering side of things for years now, so rusty doesn't even begin to describe my current aptitude as regards programming http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So I'm sure this isn't the end of the bugger just yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And meanwhile there're still coops to be played w/ trustworthy folks, etc. so cheer up guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendly_flyer
10-25-2007, 01:13 AM
Can someone confirm to me that the check routine that comes with the game do not work against the hack?

An no, I won't say frack it all, this sim is too much fun to let down the drain without a fight.

Widowmaker214
10-25-2007, 01:52 AM
Luckily I dont have to deal with it to much. Myself, and the people I fly with are not much for the dogfight servers. If you want to talk about realism.. is it really realistic having a few planes here and there hovering at 20k waiting for a few guys to take off? I mean thats how it usually is. Id rather fly world war II online.
Even the co-op servers get that way.
"Air Quake" is a good term.
Not knocking.. I know there are a multitude here that live in the dogfight servers. To each their own.
But flying coops on a DCG server.. with people we know.. well we don't really worry about it to much. If someone comes on doing quirky things.. the kick command is nice... but usually cheaters are the first person shooter type fanatics..and will prefer the air quake rooms.

With lag and other such things its real hard to be SURE someone is cheating... but you have to use a little common sense.
If things look way out of line... ban em.
simple as that.

when 4.09 comes out, Im sure this hack wont work, and another will have to be created...
perhaps someone can write a program that can check a clients computer... that would be nice.

If it boils down to flying with your buds.. thats not so bad either. squadrons are great... you learn to fly as a group, make friends.. an all around good experience...

I dont think it will kill the community.. it might fracture it some....
but I dont think people will quit flying it.. they'll just be more ... on their toes.

Insuber
10-25-2007, 02:01 AM
Bearcat,

I'm not a frequent poster (RL grind of our lives ...) but I'm an old member of this forum. I play only online, and over the last 6 years I saw cheats and cheaters surge, shine for an instant, and then vanish (do you remember the print screen ...).
Since we are a small elite in the online game's world - as you correctly state, I believe that only a very small minority of freaks will ever feel the need to install this game, find a cheat, and jump into our servers to have some cheap fun.

Well, IMHO he will have his 5 or 6 easy kills, we'll ignore him and in the end he will quit frustrated. End of the story. It worked like that with all the previous cheats.

In case of recidivist cheaters, as you say the ban will later or sooner make justice of them.

Conclusion: life (simulated) will continue with little or no disturbance to serious simmers.

Regards,
Insuber

PS: Bearcat I like your ... style, it reminds me of Louis-Ferdinand Céline ... Voyage au bout de la nuit ... was he your muse?

Esel1964
10-25-2007, 03:46 AM
As Sam Houston said,(replace "Texas" for our worldwide community)
"<span class="ev_code_RED">Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may</span>."

Never give up something you love that's a part of your life,make a 'wanted' list of all known cheaters and post their locations,when available,I used to run a gun blog and I could see IP's and their location,and post it for all to see(I know they can use proxy servers,etc.,but they all won't be),if you see one on the list frag him ballistically and verbally;make the environment very hostile for these losers.

Make them-as The Battle of Gonzales flag said-
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/hist-come-and-take-it.jpg

Whirlin_merlin
10-25-2007, 04:19 AM
As far as I can tell the checkruntimethingywotsit=2 seems to be holding. Based on what I see on the servers and that we have had folk with the sound mod complain that they can not access UK dedicated servers.
It's a shame about the different OS side effect.
I really like being involved with a 'public' server, meeting a wide range of new people etc. I would be sad to loose that.

Viper2005_
10-25-2007, 04:42 AM
I think that we need to look at this logically.

How do we prevent people from cheating:

1) Make it difficult to cheat. This line of defence has fallen, and since we cannot by definition modify the code ourselves in order to make it difficult to cheat again this is out of the picture, at least until 4.09...

2) Since it is no longer difficult to cheat, we as a community have a choice. Either we accept that cheats happen, or else we attempt to take action against them.

Actually, I think that the two approaches go together to a certain extent:

Consider the online cheater.

His objective is to win the fight. He cannot do this with flying skill, so instead he seeks to replace that skill with enhanced aircraft performance.

This is his primary weakness.

He needs a performance advantage to win. Aircraft performance is externally observable; in other words, if my opponent is flying a Gladiator which has a modified FM giving it Mach 2 performance then I can record a track of its antics and present that track as evidence.

Let's extend that argument.

In order to render the virtual world, a track file must contain information as to the position of all the aeroplanes in a server, updated regularly. In fact, it probably contains information as to their speed as well in order to produce smooth results. Since tracks contain icons, it must be possible to work out who is flying each aeroplane.

If we can get this data out of the track file, it should be possible to work out the performance of any given aeroplane in a dogfight server.

Since we're all supposed to be flying the same aeroplanes, it should then be possible to compare the "achieved" performance recorded in any given track with the "available" performance extracted from testing of an officially sanctioned installation.

Therefore, it should be possible for virtual pilots to record tracks of every flight they make, and in the event of suspicious behaviour use some kind of analysis software to decide whether or not anybody has exceeded the maximum available performance of the aeroplanes they were flying and thus to decide whether anybody has cheated. Of course, sever admins are the people best-placed to make such recordings, and it would probably be possible for this process to be automated to produce a series of relatively short tracks named on the basis of the time at which they were recorded to facilitate analysis...

Thanks to the IL2 autopilot we have the capability to extensively test every single aeroplane in the game in a manner not dependent upon pilot skill.

All that we need is some data-reduction work, a track reader/analyser and a comparator.

Of course, there are limits to the accuracy of this technique; it can only ever detect changes to parameters recorded in tracks of a 3rd party, and so for example it could never catch somebody with 6DOF.

Fuel state could only ever be inferred by working backwards from engine shutdown or landing, so cheaters might be able to get away with flying aeroplanes which were slightly lighter than they should be, though this is something of a moot point if you think about it. They could take 100% fuel and a lightened aeroplane and get good performance early in the flight. If they landed early or were shot down then the comparator might assume they took 25% fuel. If they exceeded the flight time available from 25% fuel, they'd be busted. So they wouldn't actually gain anything...

Application of this technique would certainly place some very definite limits upon the performance gain available to clandestine cheaters, and IMO it is within the ability of the community, though of course it would be better if 1C made such a tool themselves.

Of course, if the track format was expanded, then the capability of this method would likewise be expanded. I think that it might be a good idea to consider such an expansion of the track format for BoB...

The beauty of it is that there is really very little that the cheater can do to circumvent it because if they stop sending data to the server then they lose the ability to affect the game.

In general, the cheater can still cheat without being caught, but only if he doesn't gain a detectable advantage from his cheating. So cheaters could give their aeroplanes less power without getting caught because the comparator would assume that they were flying at part throttle... But I don't think anybody would lose sleep over that kind of cheating. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Of course, if the cheater was a very bad pilot and only got say 75% of the available performance from his aeroplane, he could cheat his way closer to 100%. But as soon as he crosses the line, he'll be busted.

The downside of this approach is that it would require a lot of work to implement, but a great man once said something like
[We do these things] not because they are easy, but because they are hard...

Jediteo
10-25-2007, 05:06 AM
How difficult would it to make a punkbuster-look-a-like for IL2?

I say we do anything in our power to stop these hackers, Ive had a few great years with this game, and it would be darn sad to lose it.

Bearcat99
10-25-2007, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Loco-S:
Hi Bearcat!, hy ya'll, I personally think any cheating should be banned, period ( IP address ban), I have enough hard time trying to get a single kill on in game settings to have to deal with somebody flying a turbojet powered I-16 while I fly a Me-109..he he...why to break down the trust we have on what we can and what we cant do?

it comes down to: FUN, for me this sim is fun because its as good as it can be with what info is available, the fact that you fly ( figuratively) what the real pilots had, no more, no less ( well...what about the FW190 angle of view/lower windscreen frame?.....bait), although sometimes I get really frustrated when I cant catch those pesky P-38's..or the dreaded 10 LA5-FN on ace settings ( they shoot me out of the sky in less than a minute)...and I keep trying.. its fun....what do you think?

Look who the cat drug in... How ya been?

MEGILE
10-25-2007, 05:52 AM
I say fly Jets... I mean, what are they gonna switch the engines to? pistons? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

M_Gunz
10-25-2007, 06:15 AM
The Community is bigger and older than IL2 series.
The Community has weathered these kind of things before and can weather this.

Good squads can take in new players in ones and twos and find out if they are cheats soon enough.
An open night here or there on a squad server is plenty to find the better mannered players and
pitch an invite to play other nights, give that one a PW and you might gain by it.

There's two ways people go when they get together and know each other. Bad or good.
It doesn't take long to find out which. Well, sometimes it takes longer than others <cough>,
I won't mention any squad names but that tracking through logs thing did take a long time to
find out about.

Don't panic. Form up if you're serious.

Bewolf
10-25-2007, 06:29 AM
This whole issue is blown way, way way out of proportion. My god.

Sorry bearcat, I consider you a very respectlable guy and a very good mod in general, but in all honesty, this exitement and drama goes way over the top. There were hacks before, there will be hacks again, BoB won't be spared either in the long run. And making all the fuzz about it won't change anything. And if some ppl, for a change, use those hacks for a positive effect instead of cheating, which is around for a much longer period already, then something is seriously twisted in peoples attitudes.

blindpugh
10-25-2007, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by DrHerb:
Can I just say that, yes I admit i have and used the sound "hack", "mod" or whatever its name may be, there are some of us out there that use it and do not play around with flight models or damage models or what have you. The people who hacked the fm's/dm's A: downloaded a utility that opens the .sfs and other files and B: had the ****** to screw around with these settings and started the rift in the online community, and furthermore this thread in my opinion is going to tear that rift further apart. I know im going to catch alot of flak for this but I think its a full load of fecal matter that there are people here that claim "oh Ive never downloaded it and tried it out" all im saying is there are decent people out there with yes a different (and imo better sounding) experience who have no intentions of playing with codes and whatnot. I agree with this post wholeheartedly.

Worf101
10-25-2007, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I got through the Forgotten Battles seperate install, PF standalone and Boonty Box debacle without getting hysterical. Just this once I would like to loose it completely.

Mwah hah hah hah ha.... I'm dyin... you're killing me. Feathered FTW!!!!

On a more serious note. I'll just keep flying and trying. Just doing the best I can. Bear's been a good friend and a good commander. I'll follow his lead for the time being. Except for the occaisional punk, online's been clean but I have seen more "warpage" lately. I gots em in my sights... then I don't.

Da Worfster

JG52Uther
10-25-2007, 07:08 AM
I mainly fly in the online wars,and strange things have been happening there for as long as I can remember.You just learn to avoid some people.I know its hard to accept that il2 online is pretty much finshed as a 'fair' game,but thats the way it is.Even Oleg looks like he is going to abandon it.And why not,he is looking to the future,and SoW.

WTE_Ibis
10-25-2007, 07:15 AM
There's a smell of panic in the air.
I don't think this will make a great difference to the dedicated flyers.
If you fly in a good squad there will be no cheating and if one squad has a cheater that squad will be shunned untill the cheater quits or is forced out.
It will sort itself out I'm sure and this game will go on, there are too many who want it to go on.
Although I think that Oleg really needs to find a fix if he wants the commumity to buy the Storm of War series because no one will buy it if they think it will go the same way.
I know I will keep flying.

.

Ernst_Rohr
10-25-2007, 08:10 AM
I have been flying online in several incarnations for a long time and I remember the past .sfs hack, as well as all the lame exploits folks once used, like the print screen stunt or the wingtip smoke nonsense.

I do think that this particular incident IS a major problem.

Just about every major FPS has been butchered by hackers, unless steps were taken to prevent the pathetic little no-skill losers from screwing it up for everyone else. Games and their respective communities that DONT take an active role in preventing cheaters simply wither up and die, since the legitimate members of that gaming community give up in disgust.

I used to play in ranked ladder competitions in Mechwarrior. Cheating killed that. I used to play a lot of Call of Duty/COD2, cheating killed that.

Since the sound hack, I have seen some really squirrelly behavior online. I am inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt in most cases, but when you see a A6M2 catch a P-39 in level flight at 1000m like the 39 wasn't even trying, its hard not to be suspicious.

While I would love to have some more realistic sounds in the sim, I DONT want to give up the integrity of the sim for that.

We got a nice bump in online numbers after 1946, and we saw a lot of new pilots jumping online, which was great. But, those pilots who are interested in this game as a SIM are not going to stick around if they think online is turning into cheater packed Air Quake.

Loco-S
10-25-2007, 08:32 AM
The siberian catsky says hi:
been lost for a couple of years, mostly work, bankruptcy, wife health problems, etc...will see to get 1946 to get current over here, so far i'm on PF, and I havent flown online for a long time, most likely I will be cannon fodder for the more experienced over here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Kurbalaganda/pablo.jpg

erco415
10-25-2007, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by DrHerb:
I know im going to catch alot of flak for this but I think its a full load of fecal matter that there are people here that claim "oh Ive never downloaded it and tried it out"

Well Doc., if I get your drift right, you're saying everyone's doing it. Guess what? I havn't and I won't. End of story.

BC, while the software may have failed us (for the time being), why don't we rely on what hasn't - our communities? That is, our squads. From what I've seen, most of the squads have a sense of integrity, and are able to police themselves effectivly as they are familiar with their members. After all, Who wants to cheat their friends? Put another way, if my squad, the Hellhounds, were to fly with the 99th, I wouldn't give any thought to if someone is cheating. I've not seen the HH's cheat, I know you guys wouldn't. There you have two squads worth of pilots who can be trusted. Isn't there some way that a server could be set up to only allow 'approved' pilots to join, or to only give out the server password to pilots on a 'trusted' list? Each squad could vouch for (and police) it's members and anyone wanting to fly on a honest sever would have to have someone to vouch for them. And if someone proves themselves a cheater, password/list gets updated and they find themselves on servers where a hack here or there doesn't matter, but unable to access the ones where folks are playing it straight.

T_O_A_D
10-25-2007, 08:56 AM
I haven't tried it, I hope it gets fixed, I surely don't want to fall down the trap like other sims, where you have to down load this, and that, and have every thing your buddy has, just so you can play together online.

It ends up a never ending spiral of confusion, and addon incompatablities.

Biggest reason I left CFS quickly, after the IL2 Demo came out was, the fact it was basicly cheat free, and addon free.

I spent more time adding this, removing that out and tweak this, and that, with CFS I hardly had time to do what I truley enjoyed, Flying and teamwork.

I agree though, that we should just keep tracks and avoid the cheaters, and enjoy what little is left of this sim with our cheat free friends.

SlickStick
10-25-2007, 09:16 AM
Cheating killed CFS, Jane's WWII Fighters, etc, etc, etc.

1. The main thing that needs to happen is that hosts need to become educated about the built-in anti-cheat settings for their servers and use them. One thing that is bad though, is that they are host selectable and therefore are not used intentionally by certain servers or opened so wide, they encourage cheating.

2. We need V4.09 to perform a more comprehensive check of the files.sfs file, while NOT kicking different Operating Systems. It would be ideal to make it hard-coded and not host selectable.

3. People need to be diligent and observant. There are many here that I respect as a virtual pilot and as they know exactly how to get this game to perform on the razor's edge, when they say they've seen something strange, I believe them. We need to identify those people and rely on their expert opinion and evidence more often.

SeaFireLIV
10-25-2007, 09:21 AM
I think the logical answer, Bearcat is do nothing. Yes, nothing.

Let`s see what Oleg`s 4.09 patch does first.

It may be it could hold things off for another 2-3 years.

Da_Godfatha
10-25-2007, 09:36 AM
What I have noticed about cheating in this game is, it is usualy at SQAUD level.... not single cheaters like in FPS games. Yea sure, the odd guy comes on and uses the hack/mod/cheat or whatever.

Remember when the one squadron used the log cheat? I have also seen members of a squadron (some of those member post here), sit on a tarmac and use the German SAMS to knock down planes one after another and never hit refly. Maybe a bug they found, who knows.

What should we do? $uck it up and be watchfull. It is not going to go away. And there will,sad to say, always be someone who will try to hack.

FluffyDucks2
10-25-2007, 09:51 AM
Oleg has already said that 4.09 will NOT address the hack so,not much point in waiting for help there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-25-2007, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
Oleg has already said that 4.09 will NOT address the hack so,not much point in waiting for help there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Really? I never knew that, if that`s true, then it`s all over for general servers online IL2.

Another reason why offline was really important...

WOLFMondo
10-25-2007, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
Cheating killed CFS, Jane's WWII Fighters, etc, etc, etc.

1. The main thing that needs to happen is that hosts need to become educated about the built-in anti-cheat settings for their servers and use them. One thing that is bad though, is that they are host selectable and therefore are not used intentionally by certain servers or opened so wide, they encourage cheating.


Every game that has working anti cheating measures are all either developed and maintained by the developer/publisher or from a reputable 3rd party source like Punkbuster or gameguard. Without 3rd party, developer or publisher support I don't think this sort of plan will work.

BrotherVoodoo
10-25-2007, 10:39 AM
Lets start a PM list of guys that would like to fly together
I think this is a good idea. Since the community has fractured into users and non-users of the hack it seems only logical to me. I would like to know how many non-users we have in our community. I am hoping it is a majority of the folks. Self policing seems to be the only option at this point. Knowing who you can trust online is important to myself and others I am sure. So I suggest we do start the PM of known non-users. Everybody has a choice to make and I personally choose to fly this sim un-hacked.
The 99th prides itself in integrity and honor and we WILL NOT tolerate any hacks in our coops. Straighten up, fly right!

SlickStick
10-25-2007, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
Cheating killed CFS, Jane's WWII Fighters, etc, etc, etc.

1. The main thing that needs to happen is that hosts need to become educated about the built-in anti-cheat settings for their servers and use them. One thing that is bad though, is that they are host selectable and therefore are not used intentionally by certain servers or opened so wide, they encourage cheating.


Every game that has working anti cheating measures are all either developed and maintained by the developer/publisher or from a reputable 3rd party source like Punkbuster or gameguard. Without 3rd party, developer or publisher support I don't think this sort of plan will work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was referring to the developer installed anti-cheat measures that we already have:

MAX LAG

Speed Check

Checkruntime

Two things I would like to see improved are the settings not being host-controlled and a way to log what MAX LAG and Speed Check are measuring during a game. Speed hack can be tied to a hotkey and used randomly, allowing the cheater to stay under the percentage and time settings set by the host. I would like to be able to log what speed check sees is happening.

Maybe for BoB.

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-25-2007, 11:46 AM
Since the community has fractured into users and non-users of the hack

I don't think you can regard it as users of the hack and non-users. It's a little more complicated than that. Using the sound mod is NOT synonimous with being a cheater. Yes this sound mod did open up the path for cheating but it is not a cheat in itself. I thin there will be three main factions if there realy is a fracture, people who don't use the sound hack and hate cheating, those who use the sound mod and still hate cheating, and cheaters. Anyone who automatically labels someone who uses the sound hack as a cheater is a dam fool!

Worf101
10-25-2007, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by BrotherVoodoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lets start a PM list of guys that would like to fly together
I think this is a good idea. Since the community has fractured into users and non-users of the hack it seems only logical to me. I would like to know how many non-users we have in our community. I am hoping it is a majority of the folks. Self policing seems to be the only option at this point. Knowing who you can trust online is important to myself and others I am sure. So I suggest we do start the PM of known non-users. Everybody has a choice to make and I personally choose to fly this sim un-hacked.
The 99th prides itself in integrity and honor and we WILL NOT tolerate any hacks in our coops. Straighten up, fly right! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif +1 forever. You shoot me down, good for you, I get you good for me. You cheat me... pi$$ on you...

Da Worfster

FoolTrottel
10-25-2007, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Yes this sound mod did open up the path for cheating but it is not a cheat in itself.
How can you tell?
Do you know whát has been changed?
Yeah, them sounds, but what else?

(Just wondering...)

slipBall
10-25-2007, 12:05 PM
Anyone who automatically labels someone who uses the sound hack as a cheater


What would you call them? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

carguy_
10-25-2007, 12:25 PM
For me the game is dead until 4.09 comes out.Then a couple of months of cheat free play and definite death of IL2.

I like to play this game after big breaks because it is so beatiful and immersioning.However, now when I want to click the icon shortcut the first thing comes to my mind is that I can`t get a fair play field anymore.So now mostly I resign from online sessions and pick something relaxing like PES6 or FarCry.
Online play seems a waste of time now.Back then I waited even an hour for a sortie but I was sure of fair play.If I can`t be sure of anything now,why gain more frustration?

My experience is a bit different.They are whole squads that use whatever cheats they may come up with and are condoned by other squads on the same server side.Believe it or not, many people I played against in the past actually accept cheats as a legitimate tool that only the smartest use,hence they deserve to win(sic!).
All of the cheats in the past were practiced in online wars and this one is also used I`m sure of that.

To not gain any frustration I just fire up the game and go online to fly a bit just for the sake of flying.Because the competetiveness is temporarily dead.I just choose not to set up any stakes or accomplishments as getting frustration over it is just not worth it.Currently, flying with the squad together and having some light fun is the only reasonable way for me.


I was mad to see so many people just spit in Oleg`s face.Supporting such behaviour I find dusgusting.

One more point why there should be no faith in the people I guess.

Petrosky
10-25-2007, 12:27 PM
One thing about this sound Hack
I believe its harder to catch than just
use current config. settings

I'm sure that the sound does strange things
online.
There are times planes canot be heard
or there bullets and then other planes
are fine can hear them well
Why would a sound file need new exe.

Does it seem reasonable that the in game sounds
would be off?
If some use hack&some don't

bhunter2112
10-25-2007, 01:24 PM
I am 100% offline but I feel your pain my brothers.
Kinda like real life just takes a couple of idiots to ruin it for everyone.
I myself am leaning twords a microsoft plot to ruin this game because they cannot compete.

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-25-2007, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Yes this sound mod did open up the path for cheating but it is not a cheat in itself.
How can you tell?
Do you know whát has been changed?
Yeah, them sounds, but what else?

(Just wondering...) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest I don't know for sure if the sound mod has changed only sounds (and ai cockpit substitutions), but I do believe that that is the case. Several have stated that they can see how fm's can be altered and I'm sure it would have come out by now if the sound mod itself changed things. For those that have the position that anyone in posession of the sound mod is a cheat I'll ask you this; In the CFS days when cheating was as easy as unzipping a file, did you have integrity? Did you cheat? Did you change certain textures for a better appearance? How is this different? I don't like the fact that the code has been unlocked and cheating is more possible anymore than anyone else who truly loves this sim, but that is no excuse for assuming someone is a cheat because they like the sound better this way. I would push the magic button and put the genie back in the bottle in a heartbeat and only slightly miss the sounds, but sadly that is not possible so I will enjoy the sounds and if some will label me a cheat, then I know who is worth knowing and who is not.

FoolTrottel
10-25-2007, 01:48 PM
In the CFS days when cheating was as easy as unzipping a file, did you have integrity? Did you cheat?
Only once I upped the power of the B25 on the Doolittle mission, just to get it off the deck, and to have a shorter flight-time to mainland Japan and China http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Though after take off, and speeding along, all the fun had gone... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Did not fly online then...

I'm not calling you a cheat for using the sound modification. Bu I won't use it, as I do not know what (other) things have been changed. It's not been tested the way 1C tests their products.

Just being cautious... maybe overly cautious... Oh well...

(Come to think of it.... how long before I need to include the question 'Are you using any mods?' in a reply to a mate asking for assistance in Community Help? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif )

Doolittle81
10-25-2007, 01:48 PM
Open the code to everyone!

Silent Hunter 4, distributed by UBI also, has opened its arms to "Mod'ers" and as a result that SubSIM is tenfold better today than when it was originally released just five months ago in May 2007....in graphics, in modelling-physics,in sounds, etc, etc... Mod'ers there at the UBI SH4 Forums and SubSim forums are welcome and encouraged by UBI.

Mod'ers can save the IL2 series from obsolescence and eventual obscurity. Oleg has moved on to SOW:BofB. He has no time or workforce or interest or monetary motivation to improve "IL2". The graphics can very likely be improved, the sound we know can be greatly improved, etc....let the third-Party genius's roll up their sleeves and save the day. One of the more noteworthy application-creators who could go on to being an even more creative Mod'er is Aces who has, I believe, much more to offer the community than his wonderful IL2 Mat Manager application, which brought to the IL2 series a degree of reality and historical accuracy in aircraft markings never even thought possible or conceived by Oleg and Maddox 1C.

I note also that 1C also seems to have an open mind with regard to Mod'ers for its "Theater of War" RTS ground combat game....with similar benefit to TOW community members.

In that same vein, check the MAW (Med Air War:CFS3) thread in this forum....

jasonbirder
10-25-2007, 01:56 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

You said it far better than I could!

SlickStick
10-25-2007, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Doolittle81:
Open the code to everyone!

In all honesty, I have no issue with those that want the code open for third party meddling, um, modding. All I ask is for a way to control what gets used online in competition.

Offliners can have a field day, change everything under the sun, but when I fly online, I want assurance that everyone is flying the same game that I am.

Hopefully, this can be accomplished somehow, because no matter what you offliners and modders say about how great your mods are/will be, once the door is opened, we will have absolutely no control over what gets modded. Plain and simple.

Thankfully, at least V4.08's checkruntime=2 finds some things presently.

Currently, it is hilarious to see how many folks get auto-kicked from a co-op upon joining when the host has in his brief, "No sound hacks allowed" and has checkruntime=2 in his conf.ini. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yeah, yeah, it's their different operating system, right?!?! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Bah, they had no problem a month or so ago joining when the host already had checkruntime=2 set since V4.08 came out and they didn't have the hacked file yet. Mwhahahahaha! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

joeap
10-25-2007, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Loco-S:
The siberian catsky says hi:
been lost for a couple of years, mostly work, bankruptcy, wife health problems, etc...will see to get 1946 to get current over here, so far i'm on PF, and I havent flown online for a long time, most likely I will be cannon fodder for the more experienced over here.



Hey there, long time no see indeed how's it been going? Have you been to CWOS lately?

Whirlin_merlin
10-25-2007, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Doolittle81:
Open the code to everyone!

Silent Hunter 4, distributed by UBI also, has opened its arms to "Mod'ers" and as a result that SubSIM is tenfold better today than when it was originally released just five months ago in May 2007....in graphics, in modelling-physics,in sounds, etc, etc... Mod'ers there at the UBI SH4 Forums and SubSim forums are welcome and encouraged by UBI.

Mod'ers can save the IL2 series from obsolescence and eventual obscurity. Oleg has moved on to SOW:BofB. He has no time or workforce or interest or monetary motivation to improve "IL2". The graphics can very likely be improved, the sound we know can be greatly improved, etc....let the third-Party genius's roll up their sleeves and save the day. One of the more noteworthy application-creators who could go on to being an even more creative Mod'er is Aces who has, I believe, much more to offer the community than his wonderful IL2 Mat Manager application, which brought to the IL2 series a degree of reality and historical accuracy in aircraft markings never even thought possible or conceived by Oleg and Maddox 1C.

I note also that 1C also seems to have an open mind with regard to Mod'ers for its "Theater of War" RTS ground combat game....with similar benefit to TOW community members.

In that same vein, check the MAW (Med Air War:CFS3) thread in this forum....

As someone who is mainly an onliner I have to disagree, if the code is opened the online game dies.

MB_Avro_UK
10-25-2007, 02:35 PM
Hi all,

Is online play important to Oleg?

When I bought this sim 6 years ago I had no intention of going online. I had no online experience with any game.

OK..after about 6 months a read the manual fully for the first time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I took the plunge and went online. I almost gave up after being slaughtered a number of times but stuck with it.

My point is, how significant enough is 'our' concern with this hack to change the system?

Does Oleg regard us as a vocal team of Beta testers?

If online play died a death tomorrow I would still support Oleg and buy all the BoB SoW series without a doubt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

T_O_A_D
10-25-2007, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
I'll ask you this; In the CFS days when cheating was as easy as unzipping a file, did you have integrity? Did you cheat?

Yep, Once and only whenI was getting cheated,

I playing in a room one night, I had a buddy that was wanting to play, and the only game we could find with a small crowd had these two guys flying 1500 mph Huuricanes, They were hosing us. I told my buddy they were cheats and we should just leave, He said no lets keep doing it, and see what we could do, I confronted them of it, of course they denyed it. So I went adjusted my FM to fly their speeds and payd them some justice. Within 30 minutes they had had enough of it and shut down the server. I told my friend See even they don't like a cheat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I've always tell people know how to cheat, so you can protect yourself from being cheated, just have the morals not to do it yourself.




Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

Is online play important to Oleg?

When I bought this sim 6 years ago I had no intention of going online. I had no online experience with any game.

OK..after about 6 months a read the manual fully for the first time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I took the plunge and went online. I almost gave up after being slaughtered a number of times but stuck with it.

My point is, how significant enough is 'our' concern with this hack to change the system?

Does Oleg regard us as a vocal team of Beta testers?

If online play died a death tomorrow I would still support Oleg and buy all the BoB SoW series without a doubt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

I was online witin a week of getting into flight sims, I played CFS1 at a friends house, went and bought a machine, that week along with a CFS1 disc. Installed the zone and was flying the first night I had internet, that week.

If I cna't play online with real people then it will not get near as much attention from me until the AI get to the level of People, as an opponent. AI are ok for a bit but bore me to no end after awhile, Unless I'm online with people ganging up on the AI, they have no feelings and we all get a ego boost from killing the cheating Bastids http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

carguy_
10-25-2007, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Doolittle81:
Open the code to everyone!

Close it and throw away the key!




Silent Hunter 4, distributed by UBI also, has opened its arms to "Mod'ers" and as a result that SubSIM is tenfold better today than when it was originally released just five months ago in May 2007....in graphics, in modelling-physics,in sounds, etc, etc... Mod'ers there at the UBI SH4 Forums and SubSim forums are welcome and encouraged by UBI.


APPLES AND ORANGES!




Mod'ers can save the IL2 series from obsolescence and eventual obscurity.

You mean from OFFLINE obolescence and eventual obscurity.No integrity online = dead online play.




Oleg has moved on to SOW:BofB. He has no time or workforce or interest or monetary motivation to improve "IL2".


Go ahead and ask him.Why is he working on 4.09?Apparently he HAS some interest AFAIK.Please stop lying.




The graphics can very likely be improved, the sound we know can be greatly improved, etc....let the third-Party genius's roll up their sleeves and save the day.

Don`t repair something that is not broken!
There is no day that needs to be saved here!



One of the more noteworthy application-creators who could go on to being an even more creative Mod'er is Aces who has, I believe, much more to offer the community than his wonderful IL2 Mat Manager application, which brought to the IL2 series a degree of reality and historical accuracy in aircraft markings never even thought possible or conceived by Oleg and Maddox 1C.

Uhuh, maybe so.However, he DID NOT purchase the licence from Oleg nor has anyone from the modders got his APPROVAL.Only the author decides what goes on with his creation.
REPEAT THIS AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE.



I note also that 1C also seems to have an open mind with regard to Mod'ers for its "Theater of War" RTS ground combat game....with similar benefit to TOW community members.

APPLES AND ORANGES!

Divine-Wind
10-25-2007, 03:51 PM
Couldn't have put it better myself. Well, maybe a little bit better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-HH-Quazi
10-25-2007, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Doolittle81:
Open the code to everyone!

Silent Hunter 4, distributed by UBI also, has opened its arms to "Mod'ers" and as a result that SubSIM is tenfold better today than when it was originally released just five months ago in May 2007....in graphics, in modelling-physics,in sounds, etc, etc... Mod'ers there at the UBI SH4 Forums and SubSim forums are welcome and encouraged by UBI.

Mod'ers can save the IL2 series from obsolescence and eventual obscurity. Oleg has moved on to SOW:BofB. He has no time or workforce or interest or monetary motivation to improve "IL2". The graphics can very likely be improved, the sound we know can be greatly improved, etc....let the third-Party genius's roll up their sleeves and save the day. One of the more noteworthy application-creators who could go on to being an even more creative Mod'er is Aces who has, I believe, much more to offer the community than his wonderful IL2 Mat Manager application, which brought to the IL2 series a degree of reality and historical accuracy in aircraft markings never even thought possible or conceived by Oleg and Maddox 1C.

I note also that 1C also seems to have an open mind with regard to Mod'ers for its "Theater of War" RTS ground combat game....with similar benefit to TOW community members.

In that same vein, check the MAW (Med Air War:CFS3) thread in this forum.... Yea, and let's screw the m8s that want to keep their online experience cheat free. Muck'em all & feed'em beans. H e l l, I don't care because I don't play online. They are shiite to me.

Does that sound about right to you DooLittle? How about you jasonbirder? Who gives a shiite as long as it doesn't affect you guys, eh?

Hoatee
10-25-2007, 03:59 PM
Really virtual.

Huxley_S
10-25-2007, 04:00 PM
To me it speaks volumes that someone hacked the code and their first instinct was to improve the sounds, NOT alter the FM. It was the kiddy hackers that came afterwards that did that.

It should be clear that whoever it was who did the initial hacking is a fan of the game. Probably, someone who has gotten a bit bored of the 9 months of total silence from the developer and sought to improve the one aspect of the game in which the quality has actually DECREASED since the original IL2 was released.

I believe that sooner or later, a server 'patch' will materialize that will fix the problem of the FM cheats.

The dilema for many will then be whether to use an unofficial hack, from an unknown source in order to fix the problem.

carguy_
10-25-2007, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Huxley_S:
To me it speaks volumes that someone hacked the code and their first instinct was to improve the sounds, NOT alter the FM. It was the kiddy hackers that came afterwards that did that.

Yeah,maybe.Maybe he should not release the tools in the first place.In the light of this fact, there`s no difference between him and the kiddies.




It should be clear that whoever it was who did the initial hacking is a fan of the game.


LOL!!!



Probably, someone who has gotten a bit bored of the 9 months of total silence from the developer and sought to improve the one aspect of the game in which the quality has actually DECREASED since the original IL2 was released.

He could be the Virgin Mary for all I know.Doesn`t make a difference!




I believe that sooner or later, a server 'patch' will materialize that will fix the problem of the FM cheats.


Pretty much against the way the game`s made!



The dilema for many will then be whether to use an unofficial hack, from an unknown source in order to fix the problem.

LAst events showed people really like unknown sources! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2007, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Here's the skinny folks... Our sim has been compromised. Like it or not... the facts are as they are. One of it's strongest features, it's integrity has been compromised and the solution to the problem is a big question mark.. after all... if they could finally hack the sim... than any kind of protection might just be child's play. Now if 1C comes up with a fix... great problem solved.. but folks... what do we do... what do we do if the fix gets hacked.... ?

I put forth to all of you a proposition. This community is, in my humble and limited opinion one of the smartest - technically, artistically and academically - most diverse and most loyal gaming communities on the net. Oh sure... we love history and we debate as well as we can with the limits of this forum some of the moral and philosophical issues that make men go to war... along with the technical pros and cons of various weapons.. We have our over 40 juveniles and our under 30 sages.. we have true artists here.... guys that literally create masterpieces in binary form.. and share them with the rest of the community.

So what do we do..? Our sim has been compromised... for some of us.. and before some smart @ss comes along and says something like "Geeeze it's a game man get a life... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif "
Many of us have lives.. most of us .... in fact for may of us.. this sim has become our temporary escape from the day to day grind of our lives (not that it is bad.. but let's face it.. "In the weat of your brow... etc. etc..." ... of putting food on the table... clothes on backs.... etc.... This sim has become the thing we do that is just for us..... our fun.

This online community... here... at SHQ, SOH... Hyperlobby.... and the sister communities of other simmers.. and you all know that we are a unique breed right? We aren't like other gamers, us flight simmers... not better... just.. different.... but we are unique. Most of us wopuld rahter have something as realistic as it can be... Thats why we have the whole 1% dealio in CFS.. realism.. realism...

And now this sim, our sim.. has been compromised...

I must say that this community has always made me proud for the most part... we didn't have mods... we didn't have hacks.. we didn't have cheats... but what we did have was things like the U.Q.M.G., VAC, IL2STAB, IL2 Manager. IL2 Mat, The DCG, Sturmolog, IL2 sticks... and more... all made because of the sim....

Well now our sim is compromised.... so what do we do?

WHAT do we do?

Do we just toss in the towel and give up? Fly offline? Only fly with friends (Friends don't let friends fly hacked... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )?

Do we succumb to the hysteria and start to label every one with a bad ping a cheater? What do we do with known cheaters? How should we deal with them? This was never an issue.. but it is now.. so what doe we do?


I propose that we stay the course...
That we police ourselves...
That we use the resources at our disposal to discourage cheaters and try to help any and all newcomers. I propose that we accept the reality and handle this like adults and not let this bad thing... this unfortunate turn of events, this hack of our sim turn into anything miore than what it is... the way of the genre.

Let's be grateful that it has lasted this long... When you see someone online and you just know he is a cheat... don't call him names.. don't clutter up the chat.. make a track and watch it a few times.. when you are sure that you are seeing what you thought you were... then just spread the word... If we discourage this type of behavior we may still see it but hopefully it wont be the end of it all...




I'm just venting... bear with me... sorry for the rant.

Bear, relax, huh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
10-25-2007, 05:44 PM
LEBfish (page 2)::
WHat really, I mean really ticks me off though are those many players who knowing what damage this can cause from cheating to the honest being accused of cheating to so blatantly support it, go out of their way to slam those trying to set the tone of an anti cheat mindset all so they can have the one thing we ALL wanted......
Those who may enjoy the Mack -- the Offline players who are paying for our "free" Online gameplay, and the Online players who play with others they trust -- have already told us they have no problem if the anonymous public servers can be made "cheat free."

jasonbirder
10-25-2007, 05:50 PM
Silent Hunter 4, distributed by UBI also, has opened its arms to "Mod'ers" and as a result that SubSIM is tenfold better today than when it was originally released just five months ago in May 2007....in graphics, in modelling-physics,in sounds, etc, etc... Mod'ers there at the UBI SH4 Forums and SubSim forums are welcome and encouraged by UBI.



APPLES AND ORANGES!


So Il2 is completely different from other combat simulation games...i'll grant you that..just because Silent Hunter 3 & 4 have been improved immesurably by community modding it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by it...
So what about Combat Flight Simulators...no no no APPLES and ORANGES just because Falcon 4, LOMAC and EECH have been improved immesurably by community modding it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by it...
Okay, so what about World War 2 Combat Flight Simulators...no no no APPLES and ORANGES just because EAW was improved immesurably by community modding and OFF and MAW have added a whole new dimension to CFS3 it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by modding...

So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again?

Tator_Totts
10-25-2007, 05:56 PM
I remember the witch hunts in MSCFS2. I was called out a cheater and banned for a month because I shot down someone who had a friend as a moderator. Never went back to fly there again.

Stiletto-
10-25-2007, 06:36 PM
Okay, so the checkruntime option doesn't work like it should??? Forget the OS issue, hypothetical question... Lets say we all have WinXP, so the OS shows up ok and lets you on, if you run the sound mod will it let you fly? Exactlt what doesn't it trap.. In MOST games, modding is a welcome edition... What slightly upsets me is how many people look so negative at the sounds themselves, let's forget that it opened up a can of worms.. Has anyone played rFactor? all it is is mods, the whole community makes everything for the racing sim, EVERYTHING except the game engine itself, and its beatiful to see the worlds people have created. I am actually working on some Allison V12 engine sounds, to go into a Hydroplane Boat mod, because the team lead I don't want them sound like every other boat, (a turbine jet engine).

Anyways, my point being.... in rFactor, you can freely edit the code, sounds, textures, even physics... but it always checks that your physics files match the hosts files and if they don't you get booted. So why is this sound mod (hack) such a big deal? I see this more as a failure in coding the game than the actual hack.. Every game should check the users files with the host.. It is a non issue in all the sims I play besides this one. Why oh why can't it check what it needs to, that is a HUGE error! Maybe they never thought the code would be broken, but that is pretty wishful thinking.

Someone needs to tell me, if people with the sound mod and hacks can slip through the hosts runcheck for sure.. Theres no reason for this not to work this day in age.

Also, if this doesn't work, I wouldn't expect Oleg to fix it. First of all, it takes time to do so, time that could be spent on SoW instead of a dead sim. Secondly, speaking of Sow.. With fractured and broken online play, it insures that people will buy SoW. As a developer, it would actually be better not to fix it.

Do I like the new sounds? Yes I am a modder since the GPL days, I want everything to be as realiatic and immersive as possible.. But I do agree it is not worth the price of degraded online play.

LEXX_Luthor
10-25-2007, 06:53 PM
Good points Stilleto.

Combat flight The Sims developers might be smaller teams and have fewer resources than the Racing sim developers. But, somebody poasted that "subscription based" Online play -- Pay~To~Play -- would prevent mod cheating. But, I guess the money being made would cover the expenses of continuous support and fast response to cheating methods. Oleg offers "free" Online gameplay, so maybe we get what we, or the Offline players, pay for.

Stilleto::
Do I like the new sounds? Yes I am a modder since the GPL days, I want everything to be as realiatic and immersive as possible.. But I do agree it is not worth the price of degraded online play.
Online play is only degraded if one chooses to fly with cheaters on anonymous public servers. Many Online players don't do that, preferring people who they meet online and gain confidence in.

Interestingly, the behavioral problems of degrading Online play have always been team kills, overzealous kill stealing, and very crippling for coop or Online War players is anonymous wing persons flying off to do their own thing and not playing as part of the team to begin with. Cheating with mods can only add to this already degraded gameplay, and so far, we have not seen any Mack cheating yet. Granted, I don't goto Hyperlobby, and maybe they are holding Trials there as we poast.

BfHeFwMe
10-25-2007, 07:01 PM
You claim the world is dying, so where are the numbers? Prove it, no stats available from any servers? Or just grabbing it out of your bung.

Such fragile little egos that bruise so easily. So one lamer is on a server, what else is new? Take your licks like a man, if its a lamer actually cheating the real men will simply laugh it off, not stew like a spoiled little kid.

Otherwise do us all a favor and take some actual positive action like a hunger strike until a fix shows up. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-25-2007, 07:24 PM
Well all I can say is a long time ago, when i first joined it seemed obvious to me that this would happen. It`s one of those inevitabilities. Did we really think that IL2 online could be cheat free forever? impossible.

Maybe If some of you had flown offline a bit, it wouldn`t be quite so painful as some of you seem to find it. Yes, I know, it`s a community thing, but it`s also the internet, which is far different to how things work in real life.


It seems to me a mistake to get so hung up on this event that one starts suffering.

It was going to happen. You knew it, I knew it, everyone knew it, Oleg, knew it. It was only a matter of time. How long can Oleg be expected to keep damming the dam?

Copperhead311th
10-25-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
What I have noticed about cheating in this game is, it is usualy at SQAUD level.... not single cheaters like in FPS games. Yea sure, the odd guy comes on and uses the hack/mod/cheat or whatever.

Remember when the one squadron used the log cheat? I have also seen members of a squadron (some of those member post here), sit on a tarmac and use the German SAMS to knock down planes one after another and never hit refly. Maybe a bug they found, who knows.

What should we do? $uck it up and be watchfull. It is not going to go away. And there will,sad to say, always be someone who will try to hack.

Your right about that. absolutly right.
and as well that is where it should be combated.
At t5he SQUAD LVL. that would teach some ppl really fast if all the sudden entire squadrons were getting IP banned from servers & or HL.
Cuase if one of then is doing it ...it's a pretty safe bet that the rest aren't very far behind.

As for our Squadron, It has been discussed repeatedly over the past few weeks what our regulations are regarding modded files and cheating. if your caught your gone. plain and simple. no sound mods, no hacks, nothing.
The only thing our pilots are permitted are external programs like IL-2 Mat, Stab, UQMB, ect ect.
Like wise...if any of our guys suspects some one of cheating the have clear instructions on what they are to do.

Another way around this is a private locked server. only open to a select group of ppl and our squadrons, that is passworded and hevily moderated. the server would have a list in the data base of all pilot permited, and if someone joins the server who's not on the list, whamo insta ip ban.

how about a hack free conferderation. made up entirely of Squadrons and single pilots that pledge to remain "HacK Free".

Also i would sugest a web page.... a wall of shame...devoted to know cheaters, & hackers, makers of mods, and squads who use these hacks.

-HH-Quazi
10-25-2007, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by jasonbirder:
So Il2 is completely different from other combat simulation games...i'll grant you that..just because Silent Hunter 3 & 4 have been improved immesurably by community modding it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by it...
So what about Combat Flight Simulators...no no no APPLES and ORANGES just because Falcon 4, LOMAC and EECH have been improved immesurably by community modding it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by it...
Okay, so what about World War 2 Combat Flight Simulators...no no no APPLES and ORANGES just because EAW was improved immesurably by community modding and OFF and MAW have added a whole new dimension to CFS3 it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by modding...

So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again? An online community that gives a shiite.

Copperhead311th
10-25-2007, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
So Il2 is completely different from other combat simulation games...i'll grant you that..just because Silent Hunter 3 & 4 have been improved immesurably by community modding it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by it...
So what about Combat Flight Simulators...no no no APPLES and ORANGES just because Falcon 4, LOMAC and EECH have been improved immesurably by community modding it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by it...
Okay, so what about World War 2 Combat Flight Simulators...no no no APPLES and ORANGES just because EAW was improved immesurably by community modding and OFF and MAW have added a whole new dimension to CFS3 it doesn't mean IL2 won't be destroyed by modding...

So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again? An online community that gives a shiite. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif Bingo! we have a winner!
here ya go sir ...enjoy your nice cupie doll.

LW_lcarp
10-25-2007, 07:55 PM
Yeah that would be something. A wall of shame and what not. Then when all he people that cried in there milk about all this and figure all is safe all it will take is 1 lag spike to have them running around like chickens with thier heads cut off again Screaming cheater, cheater, cheater.

Now what would have to be done is get proof of the cheat first. Then let everyone see it and as a community vote it a cheat or not a cheat.

Battlefield 2 has a simular system post screenshots/movies of the cheat and they examine it and decide if the cheater/hack was actually doing what they are accused of. If its a cheat boom they loose it all. Some have had their code banned for online play other just stats erased and name banned.

So it can be done and we just need to get this solved. Oleg is done with this game after 4.09 SOW is going to be simular to IL2 codewise. So we better get used to policing areselves. Lets get proactive instead of reactive.

MrMojok
10-25-2007, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
how about a hack free conferderation. made up entirely of Squadrons and single pilots that pledge to remain "HacK Free".

Also i would sugest a web page.... a wall of shame...devoted to know cheaters, & hackers, makers of mods, and squads who use these hacks.

These are both very good ideas... IF we can find a way to make 100% sure who is cheating. I'd hate to see an honest pilot get banned and put on the offender list because he was lagging badly one night.

Bearcat99
10-25-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by erco415:
BC, while the software may have failed us (for the time being), why don't we rely on what hasn't - our communities? That is, our squads. From what I've seen, most of the squads have a sense of integrity, and are able to police themselves effectivly as they are familiar with their members. After all, Who wants to cheat their friends? Put another way, if my squad, the Hellhounds, were to fly with the 99th, I wouldn't give any thought to if someone is cheating. I've not seen the HH's cheat, I know you guys wouldn't. There you have two squads worth of pilots who can be trusted. Isn't there some way that a server could be set up to only allow 'approved' pilots to join, or to only give out the server password to pilots on a 'trusted' list? Each squad could vouch for (and police) it's members and anyone wanting to fly on a honest sever would have to have someone to vouch for them. And if someone proves themselves a cheater, password/list gets updated and they find themselves on servers where a hack here or there doesn't matter, but unable to access the ones where folks are playing it straight.

That's the whole post in this thread.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-HH-Quazi
10-25-2007, 09:44 PM
Yea BC. Erco (Jeff) has a way of coming across that makes allot of sense. He is a fine m8 to know & one I call friend in a real world sense.

LEXX_Luthor
10-25-2007, 10:14 PM
Yep. That would eliminate overzealous kill stealing, team killing, and renegade wingpersons who refuse to fly as part of a team. These well known gaming behavioral problems have "killed"(tm) anonymous Online play for many long ago. But it didn't kill Online play, as the many went and built real Online play communities.

Skycat_2
10-25-2007, 10:19 PM
What does 'stirring the pot' mean?

Dagnabit
10-26-2007, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Frankly....I expect the rare hacker........WHat really, I mean really ticks me off though are those many players who knowing what damage this can cause from cheating to the honest being accused of cheating to so blatantly support it, go out of their way to slam those trying to set the tone of an anti cheat mindset all so they can have the one thing we ALL wanted......

YET...realizing the ramifications the responsible ones as delivered shun it....Shame on those folks, its the hackers nature, the ignorant simply don't know better...Yet those that do and promote it are simply shameful.

Well said LEBillfish, and I believe we do need to promote an anticheating mindset too. I can see that many of the sound hack promoters, are not seeing that accepting the hack is setting a dangerous precedent. If we accept this (alleged harmless) hack today, we yield our moral rights to try to stop the next one that pops up.
Today I watched the clip where the Do335 did the vertical takeoff from a carrier deck (like the He Lerch), the supposedly nonflyable glider landed on a carrier, as well as the Me321 fly under its own power. in my estimate the only way that Do335 could perform like that, is if it had the Lerch FM tied into it. If this is what some of you want I humbly invite you to go buy one of the many SciFi, or fantasy games and have all the fun you can stand. Until now the vast majority of us have simply loved this game as is, straight from the box. So why should there be a big rush to change now? And especially seeing that this is going to hurt others here if these hacks become dominant in online play.
I want to ask my fellow offliners here to have some empathy for our online forum mates here and swear off these Hacks (mods if you will). We offliners have paid our money and made our choices to play and enjoy this sim offline. But so have our online members, and they deserve as much consideration as we expect for ourselves. And it wont cost us a damn penny to back them to the hilt.
For those that still dont get it yet, I invite you to strap on a set of ******, and pop over to the 1C forum and explain to Oleg yourself, all about your legal rights to Hack/Mod his property. Im sure he will understand.

Dag

carguy_
10-26-2007, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
Yeah that would be something. A wall of shame and what not. Then when all he people that cried in there milk about all this and figure all is safe all it will take is 1 lag spike to have them running around like chickens with thier heads cut off again Screaming cheater, cheater, cheater.

I see you implying that people are awfully panicked.Is there an aim in this?



Now what would have to be done is get proof of the cheat first. Then let everyone see it and as a community vote it a cheat or not a cheat.

Anyone knows that there are so many different possible variations of cheating that it is nearly impossible to prove if a cheater using the tools is intelligent.I`m able to modify parameters that would never let you recognise adjustments yet benefit me greatly.My mathematics ended at high school level too.




Battlefield 2 has a simular system post screenshots/movies of the cheat and they examine it and decide if the cheater/hack was actually doing what they are accused of. If its a cheat boom they loose it all. Some have had their code banned for online play other just stats erased and name banned.

Sounds like another American trial.People deciding in gremio if one is guilty or not.No real grounds to base the procedures on, just shameless walking with a candle in a dark room.Hey, I`m an ace, people don`t always like me for that since I shoot lots of them down.Nonetheless, any concept is better that no concept.

I propose a a more empirical approach - maybe a body formed from the most known,respected guys who we know 100% don`t cheat.Ofcourse those would be chosen by the community as a body given the power to govern the online play.After all, this is a game and it`s pretty obvious that all of them are mostly driven by love for this sim.The IL2 community needs to trust SOMEBODY.


I feel naive enough to post something like that because I don`t believe such a thing happening.Some people are bound to refuse acceptation of such a body,for whatever reasons.

I agree that if we really have features of a community, we are obliged to think constructively if we want to save online play for some time to come.

So is it hard ot do or not?Possible?Have you said something about self policing?

Swimming in theory can be fun at times.

msalama
10-26-2007, 12:40 AM
a wall of shame...devoted to know cheaters, & hackers, makers of mods, and squads who use these hacks.

A great idea in principle, but as people said already the suspects have to be proven guilty beyound any reasonable doubt before publishing their nicks unless we want to see even bigger s**tstorm hit the fan later on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LEXX_Luthor
10-26-2007, 01:40 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dagnabit::
I want to ask my fellow offliners here to have some empathy for our offline forum mates here and swear off these Hacks (mods if you will). We offliners have paid our money and made our choices to play and enjoy this sim offline. But so have our online members, and they deserve as much consideration as we expect for ourselves. And it wont cost us a damn penny to back them to the hilt.
Offline players cannot prevent Online players from stealing kills from other Online players.

Offline players cannot stop Online players from team killing other Online players.

Offline players cannot keep undependable wingpersons from abandoning Online play teamwork.

All that gaming behavior has long hurt anonymous style Online play, yet so far nobody has seen any online cheating through Macked cheats. Granted, I never visit Hyperlobby, and they may be conducting Trials right now, as we poast.

That's alot to ask of Offline players (and Online players) who were accused of being "online slider trim cheaters" when they long ago asked Oleg for working trim controls in their WW2 flight models.

slipBall
10-26-2007, 02:20 AM
Here is what the team think's....does not look good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



Evgeny wrote:
2)Regarding 4.09:

Can u assure us that there is a check on the il2fb.exe so people that havn't original version cant join online sessions?


(Oleg quote)

First off all, that to make new check for that we need simply to rewrite too many things, icluding even file structure. It is simply impossible to make such a great job when we are totally busy with BoB...
I can't promise now... but my guys in research what is possible by minimal human/month busy schedule...
Say "Thanks" guys who did it... and who do not understand what they did for online community...

jasonbirder
10-26-2007, 02:56 AM
So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again?

An online community that gives a shiite.



So in essence the reason that IL2 is completely different from all those other very similar games..( I mean flight simulators...even world war 2 flight simulators!) that have been immeasurably improved by community and third party modding...is quite simply...You guys say so!

major_setback
10-26-2007, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
I have never played online, but if I was an onliner I wouldn't be too worried about cheats. There are LOADS of people on this forum who I know I would trust. Why dont the onliners just PM each other and make arrangements to meet up?

I am most worried about false 'cheat' accusations. There were plenty of those going around before the hack. You only had to do a fancy barrel roll, or get your aircraft up to a high speed (by diving before levelling out) for people to yell 'cheat'. I can't imagine what it will be like now.

Von_Rat
10-26-2007, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again?

An online community that gives a shiite.



So in essence the reason that IL2 is completely different from all those other very similar games..( I mean flight simulators...even world war 2 flight simulators!) that have been immeasurably improved by community and third party modding...is quite simply...You guys say so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as far as flight simulators go, the differance is that no other has the numbers of online players that we do.

imo thats because online play has been relativly cheat free.

jasonbirder
10-26-2007, 04:07 AM
Fair enough there are probably more onliners with IL2 than the other Flight Simulators...
But what is the sudden change - the big difference between games where there are a reasonable number of online players (and ive played Falcon 4.0 online a hell of alot more than ive played IL2 online personally) where modding is welcomed with open arms...and a game with lots of online players and modding is treated as the end of the world...
What is so different...what`s the characteristics of IL2 and IL2 online play that makes it the complete polar opposite of all the other simulations i've ever had any involvement with...
I mean many sims have been so extensively upgraded an modified by the community that SimHQ devoted a whole series of articles to discussing it:

http://www.simhq.com/_air4/air_150a.html

http://www.simhq.com/_air5/air_166a.html

etc etc...

etc...

Von_Rat
10-26-2007, 04:37 AM
i think its because games like falcon have a small but dedicated community. it has no where near the numbers il2 has.

if il2 becomes a modded game you'll probaly see the il2 community shrink to about the same size as falcon, all that will be left will be a small dedicated community. everyone else will move on to some other game.

im talking about the online community of course.

LW_lcarp
10-26-2007, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:


I see you implying that people are awfully panicked.Is there an aim in this?


They are look at all the IL2 is over posts and threads in the last week



Anyone knows that there are so many different possible variations of cheating that it is nearly impossible to prove if a cheater using the tools is intelligent.I`m able to modify parameters that would never let you recognise adjustments yet benefit me greatly.My mathematics ended at high school level too



Ntrk. We all have that neat little file system to watch in IL2.



Sounds like another American trial.People deciding in gremio if one is guilty or not.No real grounds to base the procedures on, just shameless walking with a candle in a dark room.Hey, I`m an ace, people don`t always like me for that since I shoot lots of them down.Nonetheless, any concept is better that no concept.



There is a group of people at EA that look at the evidence. Not the players themselves.


I propose a a more empirical approach - maybe a body formed from the most known,respected guys who we know 100% don`t cheat.Ofcourse those would be chosen by the community as a body given the power to govern the online play.After all, this is a game and it`s pretty obvious that all of them are mostly driven by love for this sim.The IL2 community needs to trust SOMEBODY.



Who do you trust. You squad mates the people you fly with. We all fly with different people. How would we come up with the MOST Trusted few.



I feel naive enough to post something like that because I don`t believe such a thing happening.Some people are bound to refuse acceptation of such a body,for whatever reasons.



I dont like government either but there is nothing I can do about it unless I by an island and be my own government


I agree that if we really have features of a community, we are obliged to think constructively if we want to save online play for some time to come.

So is it hard ot do or not?Possible?Have you said something about self policing?

Swimming in theory can be fun at times.



Self policing getting evidence to post to see if someone is cheating or not. Submiting that info. When yo uare online if you think you see a cheat get a couple people to spectate them record some files and show the evidence to people. We dont need people running around servers do that for us.

Bearcat99
10-26-2007, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again?

An online community that gives a shiite.



So in essence the reason that IL2 is completely different from all those other very similar games..( I mean flight simulators...even world war 2 flight simulators!) that have been immeasurably improved by community and third party modding...is quite simply...You guys say so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because all those other sims have benefited from modding doesn't mean that they were not hurt by it also... I for one thought that it was a good thing htat there was at least one sim on the market that was for the most part untouchable. I just hope that if the community frowns on this aspect of the whole thing that it keeps it somewhat in check. Who is the bigger cheat? The guy who puts a G6 FM in an Emil... or the guy who puts a 262 FM on a Frank.... either way it's the same thing... and it will happen. Parts of the hack arte great.... and if there was a way to just re encrypt the FM files ... and keep them that way... I would try it... but there isnt... so because of that... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Evgeny wrote:
2)Regarding 4.09:
Can u assure us that there is a check on the il2fb.exe so people that havn't original version cant join online sessions?

(Oleg quote)
First off all, that to make new check for that we need simply to rewrite too many things, icluding even file structure. It is simply impossible to make such a great job when we are totally busy with BoB...
I can't promise now... but my guys in research what is possible by minimal human/month busy schedule...
Say "Thanks" guys who did it... and who do not understand what they did for online community...

That says it all in a nutshell.


as far as flight simulators go, the differance is that no other has the numbers of online players that we do.
imo thats because online play has been relativly cheat free.

I agree 101%. The strength ofd a secure.. for better or worse FM cant be overstated. Right now..... 0815 on a Friday morning there are 305 folks on HL... guess how many are on line at Falcon (6), EAW (0) and all the rest, LOMAC at least has 37 PF had 13.. IL2 had 5 and we cant tell how many are on CFS3 can we... and WoV... Oh... wait.... you cant fly that puppy online.

leitmotiv
10-26-2007, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by major_setback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
I have never played online, but if I was an onliner I wouldn't be too worried about cheats. There are LOADS of people on this forum who I know I would trust. Why dont the onliners just PM each other and make arrangements to meet up?

I am most worried about false 'cheat' accusations. There were plenty of those going around before the hack. You only had to do a fancy barrel roll, or get your aircraft up to a high speed (by diving before levelling out) for people to yell 'cheat'. I can't imagine what it will be like now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What we have here is starting to look like the Salem Witch Trials. Online people are working themselves up into a frenzy. Look, if MAW, which is based on CFS3, can be successfully played online, I am sure IL-2 can be sorted out neatly for continued online play without loyalty oaths and oaths to never use the mod. For ages I have read on this very forum accounts from reputable onliners of impossible behavior by some aircraft online. If the Chinese can hack into the Pentagon, hackers can and will hack into IL-2. It is as inevitable as taxes and death and can't be prevented. Tears, anguish, mutual recriminatiion, and brawling only make the hackers gleeful.

As Monty Python would say: "This is getting silly."

As the poem goes, "it's not Original Sin its just a Beau going in"---the game will go on.

joeap
10-26-2007, 07:11 AM
Cheers Leit. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p-11.cAce
10-26-2007, 08:02 AM
I have always been 99% offline player so the demise of the online game does not affect me much...it is sad to see the community fracturing though. I am one of those "close minded" players who has always sworn off the modders - and I cannot deny that I am getting some dark pleasure from seeing my arguments against it born out.
I've got a hd full of wonderful campaigns, my new simpit almost finished, and soon will receive my (hopefully) SoW capable rig - sorry for the onliners who are losing out to this...hopefully when the modders raise their ugly heads next time they will be swiftly cut down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

BfHeFwMe
10-26-2007, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

as far as flight simulators go, the differance is that no other has the numbers of online players that we do.

imo thats because online play has been relativly cheat free.

Humm, I always was of the opinion my mates and I were in it because it was so much "fun". We tend to laugh at warper's and cheats, than annihlate them with teamwork. There's nothing more satisfying than killing a cheat, they aren't any good to start out with, hence the need to cheat.

As for the rest,

I still don't see what all the hysteria is going to accomplish, or is it just some sort if need for a feel good fantasy. Cats out of the bag, been out for a long time, he ain't ever going back in on this ride.

But you can kill the "fun" factor all you want with wailing, whining, and gnashing of teeth, better ask yourselves who's doing the real damage to the 'community' on this one.

Than take a good look in the mirror. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

ShaK.
10-26-2007, 12:44 PM
I say, We get a UBI mod to make a huge thread about the subject and then we can all over react about it....
If that dont fix the "problem" well then stab me in the liver and call me bled.

Von_Rat
10-26-2007, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:

as far as flight simulators go, the differance is that no other has the numbers of online players that we do.

imo thats because online play has been relativly cheat free.

Humm, I always was of the opinion my mates and I were in it because it was so much "fun". We tend to laugh at warper's and cheats, than annihlate them with teamwork. There's nothing more satisfying than killing a cheat, they aren't any good to start out with, hence the need to cheat.

As for the rest,

I still don't see what all the hysteria is going to accomplish, or is it just some sort if need for a feel good fantasy. Cats out of the bag, been out for a long time, he ain't ever going back in on this ride.

But you can kill the "fun" factor all you want with wailing, whining, and gnashing of teeth, better ask yourselves who's doing the real damage to the 'community' on this one.

Than take a good look in the mirror. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



i just stated that no other flight sim has the numbers we do.

that implies that if cheating gets rampant il2 will soon have the insignifant numbers of online players that the other flight sims have. it'll be harder to have "fun" if it gets hard to find anyone to have fun with.

thats something worth worrying about imo.

Bearcat99
10-26-2007, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by ShaK.:
I say, We get a UBI mod to make a huge thread about the subject and then we can all over react about it....
If that don't fix the "problem" well then stab me in the liver and call me bled.

The whole purpose of this thread was simply to say that as bad as it is.. it isn't the end of the world... or the sim. It definitely changes things.. but it isn't the end of it all.. Things are just different and we have to adjust to that. The "problem" is real and it wont be fixed.. even if it gets fixed.. eventually it will happen again.. so we just have to gear ourselves up for a different mind set and press on...

buddye1
10-26-2007, 07:36 PM
Cheating has always been a part of on-line game play. It has just taken longer for IL2 to become involved. The cheating will always overcome even the best defense in time and it always will.

We always really know when someone is cheating as our experience tell us. Cheaters are to be avoided on-line. It has always been more fun to fly with people you know and trust and that is the way to go forward.

If the game is still fun for you to play on-line then it is well worth the time it takes to find trusted mates to play with.

-HH-Quazi
10-26-2007, 08:36 PM
It will be ok. I promise.HEHE

I am not as bothered by it as I was when it was first known. I have come to realize that as long as we fly with our squadm8s & friends in whom we trust, then not all is lost. It is our HL m8s that stand to loose the most & it is for those m8s that we need to work together and help find a solution. I do not fly on HL hardly at all. Between my two squadrons & JO my plate stays pretty full. I guess I am a lucky one. And I am sure there are many more like me. But it is those m8s that do not affiliate themselves with a squadron & use HL to get their online flying in that we need to back up here.

Stiletto-
10-26-2007, 09:36 PM
I think many of you have it backwards, it is because of the MODS that IL2 has lasted so long, not the lack of... It is just that all the modifications and 3rd party content has been filtered and input into the software through Maddox games.
How many models in the game are from some guy who loved that plane so much he spent 100 hours on staying up until 3am working on it every night? ALOT of models. Falcon is a smaller base just cause, adding objects and graphics didn't make the community smaller, it helped it just like any other game. Same with IL2.. As I have stated before, if it wasnt for the 3rd party add-on contents or mods, Grand Prix Legends would have died out after 2 years. Instead, it is 9 years old and people play it online every day still.

I think we need some clarity on the word MOD, IL2 has always had mods, just the bigger ones had a guiding hand help them into the game in a clean and nice package. Hacking into a couple files and modifying them with another one takes all of a minute to do.. and thats what it is, HACKING. It is not an add-on or a real modification of the game, just some file editing that adds nothing to the game (well it adds some problems, I guess that isn't nothing).

mortoma
10-27-2007, 09:35 AM
I feel sorry for the onliners, who comprise a good part of the community. It's tragic for them. As an offliner I'm still all smiles though, since it does not affect me at all. Still a sad day and one that I thought would never come.

I don't think it's planned, done by 1C serrupticiously, behind the scenes and on purpose to stifle interest in Il-2, thereby automatically driving up potential sales for the upcoming BoB/SoW title. There are some that think it's done by the company on purpose. I disagree however. It may make sense to some that a company would purposely cause the decline of one older product to drive up sales for another newer one. But I for one can't really imagine Russian business people being so devious and sneaky. I mean come on now. I think it a only cooincidence that Oleg and crew are not lifting a finger to recompile the program files with a stronger encryption algorithm. Just because it would be easy to do so does not mean they have time. They would do so if they had a minute or two of extra time to do it, but they'd have to go to lunch late or something.

Just because it's perfect timing for something like this to take place is all in people's minds. I know we are getting the last patch of a game that will soon be replaced by another similar title. It's just pure and unfortunate happenstance. Russian businessmen that cunning and shrewd?? Seriously folks! People should not postulate such things, I for one cannot imagine this would be true.

Da_Godfatha
10-27-2007, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again?

An online community that gives a shiite.



So in essence the reason that IL2 is completely different from all those other very similar games..( I mean flight simulators...even world war 2 flight simulators!) that have been immeasurably improved by community and third party modding...is quite simply...You guys say so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because all those other sims have benefited from modding doesn't mean that they were not hurt by it also... I for one thought that it was a good thing htat there was at least one sim on the market that was for the most part untouchable. I just hope that if the community frowns on this aspect of the whole thing that it keeps it somewhat in check. Who is the bigger cheat? The guy who puts a G6 FM in an Emil... or the guy who puts a 262 FM on a Frank.... either way it's the same thing... and it will happen. Parts of the hack arte great.... and if there was a way to just re encrypt the FM files ... and keep them that way... I would try it... but there isnt... so because of that... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Evgeny wrote:
2)Regarding 4.09:
Can u assure us that there is a check on the il2fb.exe so people that havn't original version cant join online sessions?

(Oleg quote)
First off all, that to make new check for that we need simply to rewrite too many things, icluding even file structure. It is simply impossible to make such a great job when we are totally busy with BoB...
I can't promise now... but my guys in research what is possible by minimal human/month busy schedule...
Say "Thanks" guys who did it... and who do not understand what they did for online community...

That says it all in a nutshell.


as far as flight simulators go, the differance is that no other has the numbers of online players that we do.
imo thats because online play has been relativly cheat free.

I agree 101%. The strength ofd a secure.. for better or worse FM cant be overstated. Right now..... 0815 on a Friday morning there are 305 folks on HL... guess how many are on line at Falcon (6), EAW (0) and all the rest, LOMAC at least has 37 PF had 13.. IL2 had 5 and we cant tell how many are on CFS3 can we... and WoV... Oh... wait.... you cant fly that puppy online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Bear, but there are other ways to play onwhine and not use Hypnolobby..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

You should know that.

MOH_MADMAN
10-27-2007, 03:42 PM
no hacks...

Von_Rat
10-27-2007, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again?

An online community that gives a shiite.



So in essence the reason that IL2 is completely different from all those other very similar games..( I mean flight simulators...even world war 2 flight simulators!) that have been immeasurably improved by community and third party modding...is quite simply...You guys say so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because all those other sims have benefited from modding doesn't mean that they were not hurt by it also... I for one thought that it was a good thing htat there was at least one sim on the market that was for the most part untouchable. I just hope that if the community frowns on this aspect of the whole thing that it keeps it somewhat in check. Who is the bigger cheat? The guy who puts a G6 FM in an Emil... or the guy who puts a 262 FM on a Frank.... either way it's the same thing... and it will happen. Parts of the hack arte great.... and if there was a way to just re encrypt the FM files ... and keep them that way... I would try it... but there isnt... so because of that... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Evgeny wrote:
2)Regarding 4.09:
Can u assure us that there is a check on the il2fb.exe so people that havn't original version cant join online sessions?

(Oleg quote)
First off all, that to make new check for that we need simply to rewrite too many things, icluding even file structure. It is simply impossible to make such a great job when we are totally busy with BoB...
I can't promise now... but my guys in research what is possible by minimal human/month busy schedule...
Say "Thanks" guys who did it... and who do not understand what they did for online community...

That says it all in a nutshell.


as far as flight simulators go, the differance is that no other has the numbers of online players that we do.
imo thats because online play has been relativly cheat free.

I agree 101%. The strength ofd a secure.. for better or worse FM cant be overstated. Right now..... 0815 on a Friday morning there are 305 folks on HL... guess how many are on line at Falcon (6), EAW (0) and all the rest, LOMAC at least has 37 PF had 13.. IL2 had 5 and we cant tell how many are on CFS3 can we... and WoV... Oh... wait.... you cant fly that puppy online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Bear, but there are other ways to play onwhine and not use Hypnolobby..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

You should know that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

of course there are other ways. but il2 players use those methods also, heck im one of them. so those il2 players who use those methods wont show up in HL either. so it should all stay relative, because theres no reason to believe those other game players use other methods more than il2 players do.

in other words those numbers are a good indication of the relative numbers playing online.

Bearcat99
10-27-2007, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Da_Godfatha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jasonbirder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So just remind me what is so different about IL2 again?
An online community that gives a shiite.


So in essence the reason that IL2 is completely different from all those other very similar games..( I mean flight simulators...even world war 2 flight simulators!) that have been immeasurably improved by community and third party modding...is quite simply...You guys say so! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because all those other sims have benefited from modding doesn't mean that they were not hurt by it also... I for one thought that it was a good thing htat there was at least one sim on the market that was for the most part untouchable. I just hope that if the community frowns on this aspect of the whole thing that it keeps it somewhat in check. Who is the bigger cheat? The guy who puts a G6 FM in an Emil... or the guy who puts a 262 FM on a Frank.... either way it's the same thing... and it will happen. Parts of the hack arte great.... and if there was a way to just re encrypt the FM files ... and keep them that way... I would try it... but there isnt... so because of that... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Evgeny wrote:
2)Regarding 4.09:
Can u assure us that there is a check on the il2fb.exe so people that havn't original version cant join online sessions?

(Oleg quote)
First off all, that to make new check for that we need simply to rewrite too many things, icluding even file structure. It is simply impossible to make such a great job when we are totally busy with BoB...
I can't promise now... but my guys in research what is possible by minimal human/month busy schedule...
Say "Thanks" guys who did it... and who do not understand what they did for online community...

That says it all in a nutshell.


as far as flight simulators go, the differance is that no other has the numbers of online players that we do.
imo thats because online play has been relativly cheat free.

I agree 101%. The strength ofd a secure.. for better or worse FM cant be overstated. Right now..... 0815 on a Friday morning there are 305 folks on HL... guess how many are on line at Falcon (6), EAW (0) and all the rest, LOMAC at least has 37 PF had 13.. IL2 had 5 and we cant tell how many are on CFS3 can we... and WoV... Oh... wait.... you cant fly that puppy online. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Bear, but there are other ways to play onwhine and not use Hypnolobby..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
You should know that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_black">of course there are other ways. but il2 players use those methods also, heck im one of them. so those il2 players who use those methods wont show up in HL either. so it should all stay relative, because theres no reason to believe those other game players use other methods more than il2 players do.

in other words those numbers are a good indication of the relative numbers playing online.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly... Someone please.. got to the other venues.. and see how many people there are playing the above mentioned sims that have so benifitted from modding. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
... seriously.. someone who has ASE or whatever the "place" is .. go take a look and see how many are there...

On HL as of right now (of course this could change..) there are 5 doing Falcon, 37 LOMAC, 0 EAW, 4 FA-18, 0 doing Strike Fighters, 0 doing wings ove Nam, 498 doing FB.. Hmmmmm sounds like BIG fun on those other venues... What about the other places that people fly online...?


Originally posted by Stiletto-:
I think many of you have it backwards, it is because of the MODS that IL2 has lasted so long, not the lack of... It is just that all the modifications and 3rd party content has been filtered and input into the software through Maddox games.
How many models in the game are from some guy who loved that plane so much he spent 100 hours on staying up until 3am working on it every night? ALOT of models. Falcon is a smaller base just cause, adding objects and graphics didn't make the community smaller, it helped it just like any other game. Same with IL2.. As I have stated before, if it wasnt for the 3rd party add-on contents or mods, Grand Prix Legends would have died out after 2 years. Instead, it is 9 years old and people play it online every day still.

I think we need some clarity on the word MOD, IL2 has always had mods, just the bigger ones had a guiding hand help them into the game in a clean and nice package. Hacking into a couple files and modifying them with another one takes all of a minute to do.. and thats what it is, HACKING. It is not an add-on or a real modification of the game, just some file editing that adds nothing to the game (well it adds some problems, I guess that isn't nothing).

I disagree.. first of there are no mods for this sim. There are hacks. HACKS. The utilities that you speak of arent mods... they are utilities that work within the confines of the code that exists. The 3rd party content you refer to are not mods.. they are added content.. that went through thye developer. I wonder what would have happened if the person who came up with this had sent it straight to Oleg & 1C and asked to have it implemented into the sim before they posted it on the internet for all to aquire? Perhaps then it would actually be a mod.. or an add on.. but as it is now it is a HACK.. an unatherized HACK. This sim has lasted this long because
A)It is a D@MN good sim.. warts and all..
B)Developer support.. even if it has slacked off in the last few years it is understandable but we still got all the extra content even if we had to pay for some of it over the last 2 years alone...
C)A pretty reliable code that took this long to be hacked to the point where the hack was in Johnny *****'s hands... Even when this was first done a few years ago,.. the fact that it was in very few hands.. even if there were more than we realized at the time made a huge difference. Now anyone who wants it can have it.. including the schmo who comes on the scene over the past few weeks and decides all the FNMs are wrohg.. and he is going to make "his bird fly right... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif... " yeah.... http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

EiZ0N
10-28-2007, 08:57 AM
I'm confused. Can someone briefly explain, or provide a link, about this hacking malarkey?

I've seen it mentioned but haven't really been around much to get a good idea.

triggerhappyfin
10-28-2007, 04:58 PM
Well, Oleg's said that they'll not bother about a fix for the sound hack...so we've to adapt to it. Some servers will benefit from it others will continue as before. We'll encounter cheaters what ever we do. It's not like there's not been any accusations about cheats over the years. Now we know and are able to adapt.

Stiletto-
10-28-2007, 09:37 PM
Bearcat the intention of my post is to explain what is what in IL2. I stated and agree with you the editing of the flight models is hacking, that is all it is, that is the problem.
As for saying there hasn't been any "mods" for IL2, while on paper this is true, everyone who has made a plane in their free time started by modifying polygons in a 3d editing program, just like any other game. To say that the lack of modying has helped the IL2 community grow would be untrue, as if it wasnt for all the 3rd party people making airplane models we wouldn't have nearly as many planes and the game wouldn't have as long as a shelf life.

Now maybe you argue it isn't modding because Maddox Games puts it in and releases them in timely fashioned patches.. But the work that has gone into this sim by the users that are not affiliated with the developers is no different from any other game that has a strong 3rd party support and no helping hand from the game company. It is the same in that regard.