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Hun_in_the_sun
02-20-2007, 01:18 PM
Hey guys,

I have a question for you all.
I have examinated the flight characterisations of the german planes and they are not correct according to the following things:

- There is a colour movie of a mission of a couple of b17 bombers(about 30 min). The altitude on which they fly is approximately 25000 feet(they are callng that on the radio). They fly with a speed of 180 mph. In the movies you see a couple of 109 and 190 flying towards them and attacking them with great speed(not diving). The speed of those machines must be about 500 kmh. If I fly the same kind of mission in il2 stumovik I don't reach a speed of 500 kmh. The 109 is extermely slow and the 190 is not significant better. How does this come?

- The second thing is the same as the first piont only this time looking at footage of guncamera's and cockpitcamera's from 109's and 190's. You can clearly see that they are flying 500 kmh and faster on high altitude. Why is this not in il2 stumovik? I only can reach a topspeed of 330 kmh!

I have the feeling that the makers of the game not examined all data precisely. It is a sin, because it is a nice game.

Can someone tell me why the data is so inaccurate.

Agamemnon22
02-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
Hey guys,

I have a question for you all.
I have examinated the flight characterisations of the german planes and they are not correct according to the following things:

- There is a colour movie of a mission of a couple of b17 bombers(about 30 min). The altitude on which they fly is approximately 25000 feet(they are callng that on the radio). They fly with a speed of 180 mph. In the movies you see a couple of 109 and 190 flying towards them and attacking them with great speed(not diving). The speed of those machines must be about 500 kmh. If I fly the same kind of mission in il2 stumovik I don't reach a speed of 500 kmh. The 109 is extermely slow and the 190 is not significant better. How does this come?

- The second thing is the same as the first piont only this time looking at footage of guncamera's and cockpitcamera's from 109's and 190's. You can clearly see that they are flying 500 kmh and faster on high altitude. Why is this not in il2 stumovik? I only can reach a topspeed of 330 kmh!

I have the feeling that the makers of the game not examined all data precisely. It is a sin, because it is a nice game.

Can someone tell me why the data is so inaccurate.

K well first of all, movies are wonderful, but just the fact that you had a *couple* B17's makes me doubt its accuracy. B17's don't fly in couples, they fly in couples of hundreds.

Secondly, exactly how is it clear, in your second point, that they're flying 500+kph? IAS or TAS? Every guncam footage I've seen has little more than a crosshair, never mind any speed readout. What are you judging the speed in reference to?

berg417448
02-20-2007, 02:09 PM
Use this chart to convert your 330 kph Indicated Air Speed to True Air Speed for that altitude:

http://www.culls-page.de/Downloads/Tools/ias-tas%20chart.jpg


Once you've done that I think you will find your answer.

Hun_in_the_sun
02-20-2007, 02:41 PM
I mean by 'a couple' actually 350 airplanes. In the video they fly with 1200 aircrafts, but not all where used for the mission. Many of them were used for distraction.
And the speed I have seen from a camera inside the cockpit. I don't know how it is done, but the camera moves inside the cockpit(not much). You see that the airspeed indicator shows 520 kmh and he is flying at 8000 meters. In il2 sturmovik that isn't the case. Bit weird. And I know that the indicated airspeed is not the actually airspeed, but it differs not much.
They fly damn fast both the colour video as the luftwaffe footage. Much faster as in il2 sturmovik. The difference between the b17 airspeed and the bf 109 is much bigger in reality than in il2 sturmovik. You see the fighters only a few seconds and they are gone. I don't understand how this can happen.

WB_Outlaw
02-20-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
You see that the airspeed indicator shows 520 kmh and he is flying at 8000 meters. In il2 sturmovik that isn't the case. Bit weird. And I know that the indicated airspeed is not the actually airspeed, but it differs not much.

You are wrong, the difference is HUGE (somewhere 180 or more IIRC) between indicated and true at 8000 meters.

I can make a gauge read anything I want including reading 520 kph/8000 meters while it's sitting on the ground. I wouldn't count on ANY video being accurate unless I knew for certain it was part of a test/certification.

--Outlaw.

berg417448
02-20-2007, 02:48 PM
Actually IAS and TAS differ a great deal at that altitude. 330 kph IAS is over 500 kph TAS at that altitude.

Hun_in_the_sun
02-20-2007, 03:00 PM
So you are saying that if i fly with a 109 that indicated 520 kmh i fly actually 690kmh?
And if that is the case: why isn't that shown in il2 sturmovik?
At the altitude it is hard to fly with the 109 in il2. In the video they make hard turns which i can't make. If i do that if have immediately stall. And the video's are from the Luftfahrtministerium so they are real. I wish i could put the video on this forum, but i don't know how(they are hugh:600MB+).

berg417448
02-20-2007, 03:10 PM
In order to help you understand Go to QMB and select Crimea map since it is supposed to be the map corrected for testing. Cycle through the cockpit views until you come to the one with the four "comic book" style round gauges. The airspeed shown on this view will read TAS while the lower left speed bar will show IAS. You will be able to note the difference between the two at various altitudes.

VW-IceFire
02-20-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
So you are saying that if i fly with a 109 that indicated 520 kmh i fly actually 690kmh?
And if that is the case: why isn't that shown in il2 sturmovik?
At the altitude it is hard to fly with the 109 in il2. In the video they make hard turns which i can't make. If i do that if have immediately stall. And the video's are from the Luftfahrtministerium so they are real. I wish i could put the video on this forum, but i don't know how(they are hugh:600MB+).
With all of the arguments that go on in these discussion groups about aircraft performance, let me be perfectly clear that the performance is not off by 200 kph. Usually we have arguments about a 10kph, 15kph or 20kph deviation from the historical values for the specific type of aircraft, engine, boost and RPM setting, and so forth. Its crazy but this sim is very accurate and its close enough to argue down to those types of details.

Try this website:

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm

Go down to "IAS/TAS Chart by ClnlSandersLite". Its an Excel spreadsheet with all of the conversion charts. Mostly for people flying bombers who need this stuff to setup the bombsight.

Anyways at 8100 meters a plane flying at 350kph IAS is actually flying at 536kph TAS. Thats a pretty significant difference. Perhaps the gun footage you were looking at showed the TAS value. I've never seen that on gun camera footage. In the plane cockpits the IAS is typically shown only. In some planes like the Me-262 they had both.

This sims speeds are, in most cases, right on the money and certainly not a 100kph or more off. At least not from 0 to 10,000 meters.

slappedsilly
02-20-2007, 03:30 PM
There is a colour movie of a mission of a couple of b17 bombers(about 30 min). The altitude on which they fly is approximately 25000 feet(they are callng that on the radio).

I usually don't fly that high, but the other day I made a mission with some p51's in it and figured they may do better that high. I couldn't play the mission because the horizon was so distracting. It looked like I was 125,000 ft. I could see the curve of the earth!
The sim looks great down low, but up high, no thanks.

XyZspineZyX
02-20-2007, 04:04 PM
Hun-in-the-sun:

Hi. You are making some assumptions.

Firstly, yes, 500 kmh is not bad a guess as to apparent speed. It may even be 500 kmh. But you see, guessing isn't going to gain you much around here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Data to back this up would be nice

Of course, in this case it is not needed- we all know that the planes were flying at a high rate of speed. You try to duplicate this in your simulation, and you do not see 500 kmh on your speedometer at all. Correct? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here are some terms to consider:

Groundspeed
Altitude correction
Indicated airspeed
True airspeed

Your indicated speed, or "IAS" I what the gauges show. "TAS" or true airspeed, must be calculated. This was important for navigation. Pilots back then used a slide-rule dvice called a 'flight computer'. It looked like a dial made of laminated paper in many cases. This calculated your actual speed, once corrected for altitude and air temperature

The device that does the actual measuring of airspeed is a 'pitot tube'. that acts upon a pressure transducer to show variance in static pressure and that rammed down the pitot. At altitude this device will not be accurate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is a true air speed calculator that you can use online:

TAS calculator (http://www.csgnetwork.com/tasinfocalc.html)

At 300 mph indicated at 25,000 feet, you are actually travelling in excess of 450 mph http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Luftwaffe planes you saw in teh movie were probably going around 400 mph, laden with fuel, ammo, gunpods, etc. That would translate into an indicated airspeed of just around 275 mph

I do not know the metric conversion off the top of my head, but I can look it up easy enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, the very high altitude modelling of the sim is known to be incorrect. The sim was designed as a tactical sim at low to mid altitudes. It originally was designed to feature the Il2 Sturmovik, only. At 25,000 feet, you are in the area where the sim will show errors. But the large error here is your confusion between indicated speed, and how fast you are actually travelling

VW-IceFire
02-20-2007, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by slappedsilly:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There is a colour movie of a mission of a couple of b17 bombers(about 30 min). The altitude on which they fly is approximately 25000 feet(they are callng that on the radio).

I usually don't fly that high, but the other day I made a mission with some p51's in it and figured they may do better that high. I couldn't play the mission because the horizon was so distracting. It looked like I was 125,000 ft. I could see the curve of the earth!
The sim looks great down low, but up high, no thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excellent mode? Perfect looks better...not great but better.

The P-51's are really great up there too. The Thunderbolts even more so.

slappedsilly
02-20-2007, 06:14 PM
Excellent mode? Perfect looks better...not great but better.

The P-51's are really great up there too. The Thunderbolts even more so.

I fly in perfect mode, but its not the aircraft handling that bothers me. Its that curved horizon. Makes the earth look like its about 4000 miles around instead of about 27,000 miles. Seems like someone would have noticed that in beta. Lucky for me the online play stays low and like I said it looks great down low. I love the water with the white caps.

ImpStarDuece
02-20-2007, 10:42 PM
This game was originally developed around a low altitude attack aircraft, the IL-2.

The air battles on the Eastern Front rarely exceeded 5,000-6,000 meters in altitude, unlike that of the Western Front, where 6,000-8,000 meter combats represented a important minority of combats.

So its understandable that the graphics at low altitudes have been optimised in favour of those at high altitude.

The majority of WW2 aerial combat occured below 20,000 feet/6,000 m. It was a relative rarity for engagements (not necessarily flights) in the MTO, ETO, PTO, CBI and night fighting in the WTO to get above these heights. The high altitude combat of the Channel Front was something of an abnormality, brought about by the conditions of high levels of technology (both in fighters and in bombers), relatively long distances and no direct ground support of land combat forces in the mid 1940 to mid 1944 period.

Most bombers of the period, with the exception of the turbosupercharged B-17, B-24 and B-29 and bombers with two stage supercharged engines such as the He-177, Mosquito IX (and later) achieved their best speeds below 18,000 feet. He-111, Ju-88, Lancaster, Halifax, Sterling, Ki-21, G4M, Tu-2, IL-4, Pe-2 ect all cruised and fought at the 15,000-18,000 foot band.

Hun_in_the_sun
02-21-2007, 07:09 AM
Hey guys,

Yes, I understand the IAS and the TAS airspeed. I would say: take a 109G6 and fly to 8000 meters and then attack a group of B17. When you are ready to turn away from the aircrafts, make a steep turn to the right/left. You will notice that you will get immediately stall. In the video they have no stall. At that hight you can do nothing with you aircraft, except making wide turns. In the video the B17 are flying with a speed of 180 mph. The 109's must fly with a speed of 300 mph at least. They are flying much faster than the B17's.
Press F3 and you will see that the aircraft speed is nothing. It is hard to keep up with the B17's :s.

Another case is the Ta152 H1. I have a book of this excellent aircraft. One of the test flight showed that the Ta 152 H1 was capable of reaching an altitude of 13000 meters and a speed of 780 kmh(TAS). When I do that in il2 I reach 10000 meters and the aircraft is really hard to fly. It is almost impossible to reach that hight with that speed. Measurings have been performed by the best scientists with a barograph, therefore the dates are almost 100% correct.

Something isn't right in the simulation. And it's a simulation and not a game. It must be as the reality.

berg417448
02-21-2007, 08:49 AM
Maybe be your stick settings and/or experience level. I just set up and flew your scenario. I never stalled even in a 90 degree bank.. I was able to catch and make multiple passes against the B-17s.

JG53Frankyboy
02-21-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
..............
Something isn't right in the simulation. And it's a simulation and not a game. It must be as the reality.
hey, sorry but, if you want reality, buy a WW2 Warbird and fly it !

what do you expect from a pice of Software that costs less than 50$ and have to run on your home PC. and even if its called simulation, its still a game !
ask your Airforce what their trainingsimulators cost !

JG52Karaya-X
02-21-2007, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
When I do that in il2 I reach 10000 meters and the aircraft is really hard to fly. It is almost impossible to reach that hight with that speed. Measurings have been performed by the best scientists with a barograph, therefore the dates are almost 100% correct.

Of course aircraft are harder to fly at 10k than at sealevel because in order to get the same airflow over your wing you have to fly considerably faster because of the much thinner air! And about the Ta152, its a victim of IL2 altitude modelling, the engine only models up to 10k, above that altitude you have constant temperture, air density, etc. so you cant really get it up to its total topspeed, but still the Ta152H can reach 750km/h ingame.

Other than that there's nothing wrong with IL2.

WWMaxGunz
02-21-2007, 11:00 AM
In real WWII era planes you had to correct the indicated dial airspeed before converting
to TAS. Depending on where the pitot is that may be more correction than less and IRL
as in history once you got past .6 mach the variance rises strongly. Rall reports seeing
over mach 1 on guages in captured P-47's he flew as Opfor for fighter training school.
He wasn't going over 1200 kph, the pitot was compressed.

Now here you say the alt was 8 km and guage reading 520 kph. Just going straight along on
that chart (also on earlier IL2 disc) 8000m and under 500 I read 762 and under 550 I read
839, 520 interpolates to 792.8 kph TAS. Mach 1 at 8 km alt is 1109 kph. If that guage
was dead-accurate then he would be going level 8 km high at over .71 mach. LOL, maybe after
the dive they don't show on your movie! But really the guage will be reading high maybe 100
kph over CAS, Corrected Air Speed, go look up FAA if you have doubts and you will see plenty.

If you can't catch B-17's at 8 km then you are also doing something wrong or not doing some
things right more likely. Does the plane you have change supercharger stages automatic?
Does it take care of fuel mixture for you? Those are two options you toggle on when you
select CEM (Complex Engine Management). How is your trim set? You do trim? Are you flying
with slip? Flaps up? If there are automatics, are they on? And last, how are you loaded
in fuel ammo and hanging guns, bombs or fuel pods? Cause if that's a 109 with gunpods you
fly in the game and there are no gunpods on the one in the film (how you know which one?)

.... oh but hang on, I've been landed -- the movie is a fake isn't it? I mean really, how
many camera angles to catch both side's views?

AVGWarhawk
02-21-2007, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
Hey guys,

Yes, I understand the IAS and the TAS airspeed. I would say: take a 109G6 and fly to 8000 meters and then attack a group of B17. When you are ready to turn away from the aircrafts, make a steep turn to the right/left. You will notice that you will get immediately stall. In the video they have no stall. At that hight you can do nothing with you aircraft, except making wide turns. In the video the B17 are flying with a speed of 180 mph. The 109's must fly with a speed of 300 mph at least. They are flying much faster than the B17's.
Press F3 and you will see that the aircraft speed is nothing. It is hard to keep up with the B17's :s.

Another case is the Ta152 H1. I have a book of this excellent aircraft. One of the test flight showed that the Ta 152 H1 was capable of reaching an altitude of 13000 meters and a speed of 780 kmh(TAS). When I do that in il2 I reach 10000 meters and the aircraft is really hard to fly. It is almost impossible to reach that hight with that speed. Measurings have been performed by the best scientists with a barograph, therefore the dates are almost 100% correct.

Something isn't right in the simulation. And it's a simulation and not a game. It must be as the reality.

You can explain it 1000 of ways Hun but it is useless. I happen to agree with you 100%. Get to altitude in game and the planes do not perform like the RL versions. Yep, I agree!!! I have made the same observation but as it would have it does not matter if you don't start posting films and facts with graphs, etc. Like I said, I agree but...........have you played around with engine management? Superchargers and the like when at altitude? I do not know how you have your game set up for engine management. Set fuel mixture and supercharges if available. I did not see where anyone mentioned this as a possible cause for poor performance at altitude.

Hun_in_the_sun
02-21-2007, 02:57 PM
hey guys,

I fly in the mission a Bf 109G6 like the movie(early version). It has no gunpods. But what are you talking about settings? The Bf 109 changes automaticly the fuel mixture. I can only change the M1,M2 or M1+M2. The version has no supercharger. But what do you mean by slip?
And the movie isn't fake. It isn't a propaganda movie like deutsche wochenschau. It is a movie made for the Luftfahrtministerium to view tactics which are used against viermot(b17).

berg417448
02-21-2007, 03:06 PM
You can read a lot here about stick settings.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=197100554

The stick settings are highly individual ...I've changed mine a number of times through the years. What works for my stick might not be good for your stick. You just have to experiment to see what works best for you.

AVGWarhawk
02-21-2007, 04:41 PM
Please note that Oleg's stick settings are for a Saitek product. (if I'm not mistaken). Depending on what stick you have sometimes dictates what settings will work best.

Hun, is your plane trimmed while in level fight as you are attempting to gain on the bombers? Sometimes this will slow you down.

WB_Outlaw
02-21-2007, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
In the video they make hard turns which i can't make. If i do that if have immediately stall. And the video's are from the Luftfahrtministerium so they are real. I wish i could put the video on this forum, but i don't know how(they are hugh:600MB+).

If you have a high speed internet connection PM me and I'll send you instructions on how to send to video to me for hosting.

Nothing but a jet will make a hard level turn at 8000 meters unless it has used altitude to build up speed.

You are making some assumptions when reading about performance. Do some more research and you will find out that the game isn't that far off.

--Outlaw.

AVGWarhawk
02-22-2007, 07:22 AM
I did a few tests last night. 42 F4F ran about 140mph/20000 feet. Supercharger step 3 engaged. F6F was much the same.

43 Corsair, superchargers set, ran about 190mph, 20000 feet

42 P-40, sputtered out at 20000 feet.

Squad mate flown a Ki, I believe 42, pouring smoke at 20000 feet. Adjust fuel mix, no help, supercharger on, no help. Fell out of the sky. Only made 70mph. Then again, service ceiling on Ki may not be that high... I do not know.

At any rate, the tests I made thus far would indicate there is a lack of performance at altitude...were these plane often played.

I'm going to try the 190/109 tonight. Also, some Spitfires

Hun_in_the_sun
02-22-2007, 08:25 AM
Hey guys,

I don't understand the settings for the joystick. I have a saitek, but I don't understand what i must do with these numbers(x and y).
I have another excellent movie of attacking B17. It is filmed in a B17(part of the formation of the last mision of the memphis bell). It is a colour movie and it is a part of the colour of war collection.
The video is great http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif . You should see that movie.
My aircraft is not trimmed in flight. Maybe that is one of the reason's that i fly so slow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif. I will try to trim it next time.
Does somebody know when I must use M1, M2 and M1+M2 in the 109?

AVGWarhawk
02-22-2007, 08:42 AM
Open your game, look to the right for the control button. Open that and click on inputs. Inside you will see a slider system for your stick. These allow you to adjust you stick settings to your liking. Also, what stick do you have? You can set up your trim buttons on your stick through the hotas controls. I have the X52 and enough buttons that I very rarely use the keyboard.

JG53Frankyboy
02-22-2007, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
...........My aircraft is not trimmed in flight. Maybe that is one of the reason's that i fly so slow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif. I will try to trim it next time.
Does somebody know when I must use M1, M2 and M1+M2 in the 109?

the trimm has nothing to do with your speed.
did you already told us what speed IAS (speedbar and cockpit gauges) AND TAS ("comic" gauges in the no cockpit view)
you are reaching with the specific 109 variant , and on what map ?
you should get il2compare (someone be please so kind and give him a link!)
it shows in general quite accurate the speeds (in TAS !!) the planes in game can reach at specific altitudes.

you dont need the magnetos in any plane in game - its actually a senseless function (in game)

WB_Outlaw
02-22-2007, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
...........My aircraft is not trimmed in flight. Maybe that is one of the reason's that i fly so slow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif. I will try to trim it next time.
Does somebody know when I must use M1, M2 and M1+M2 in the 109?

the trimm has nothing to do with your speed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flying out of trim WILL affect your airspeed and since the 109 has fixed rudder trim, unless you are applying rudder to stay coordinated, you will be losing speed.

As Franky said, you don't need to mess with the magnetos and everything else is controlled automaticaly. It's possible that you might be able to get a little bit of speed by controlling the prop pitch manually but I'm not sure.

I did some tests with the G6 A/S and didn't have any problems reaching 400kph in level flight before attacking the bombers at 9000 meters in my test mission. I will do some more tests with the early non boosted G6 shortly.

--Outlaw.

berg417448
02-22-2007, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

the trimm has nothing to do with your speed.



I have found that elevator trim definitely has an effect upon speed.

JG53Frankyboy
02-22-2007, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

the trimm has nothing to do with your speed.



I have found that elevator trim definitely has an effect upon speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how ever you fly horizontal, if trimmed with elevator or with putting the stick forward, there should be no difference........... or should be ?

rudder trimm, ok, i was in the 109, that has none as already mentioned http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WB_Outlaw
02-22-2007, 09:58 AM
There should be very little, if any, difference between using the trim tabs or stick force to fly coordinated and/or level. The trim tab doesn't supply the aerodynamic force, it moves OPPOSITE to the desired direction causing the control surfact itself to move, just as it does when you apply force to the stick. Of course, on some aircraft, like the 109, the entire stabilizer moves instead of a trim tab.

My test show that the early 109G6 is pretty much dead on as far as published speed at altitude (621kph @ 22000 ft.). I can reach this speed in level flight with no problems. Of course the IAS will be much lower but that's the way it should be.

Bottom line -- no problems with this one.

--Outlaw.

AVGWarhawk
02-22-2007, 10:10 AM
@Outlaw

Was your test online or off-line? Would that make a difference? The few planes I messed with I did online.

blindpugh
02-22-2007, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
So you are saying that if i fly with a 109 that indicated 520 kmh i fly actually 690kmh?
And if that is the case: why isn't that shown in il2 sturmovik?
At the altitude it is hard to fly with the 109 in il2. In the video they make hard turns which i can't make. If i do that if have immediately stall. And the video's are from the Luftfahrtministerium so they are real. I wish i could put the video on this forum, but i don't know how(they are hugh:600MB+).
With all of the arguments that go on in these discussion groups about aircraft performance, let me be perfectly clear that the performance is not off by 200 kph. Usually we have arguments about a 10kph, 15kph or 20kph deviation from the historical values for the specific type of aircraft, engine, boost and RPM setting, and so forth. Its crazy but this sim is very accurate and its close enough to argue down to those types of details.

Try this website:

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm

Go down to "IAS/TAS Chart by ClnlSandersLite". Its an Excel spreadsheet with all of the conversion charts. Mostly for people flying bombers who need this stuff to setup the bombsight.

Anyways at 8100 meters a plane flying at 350kph IAS is actually flying at 536kph TAS. Thats a pretty significant difference. Perhaps the gun footage you were looking at showed the TAS value. I've never seen that on gun camera footage. In the plane cockpits the IAS is typically shown only. In some planes like the Me-262 they had both.

This sims speeds are, in most cases, right on the money and certainly not a 100kph or more off. At least not from 0 to 10,000 meters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>old war footage was shot in 8mm film or 16mm-also depends on what speed camera was running at-also depends what speed it was viewed at.

AVGWarhawk
02-22-2007, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
So you are saying that if i fly with a 109 that indicated 520 kmh i fly actually 690kmh?
And if that is the case: why isn't that shown in il2 sturmovik?
At the altitude it is hard to fly with the 109 in il2. In the video they make hard turns which i can't make. If i do that if have immediately stall. And the video's are from the Luftfahrtministerium so they are real. I wish i could put the video on this forum, but i don't know how(they are hugh:600MB+).
With all of the arguments that go on in these discussion groups about aircraft performance, let me be perfectly clear that the performance is not off by 200 kph. Usually we have arguments about a 10kph, 15kph or 20kph deviation from the historical values for the specific type of aircraft, engine, boost and RPM setting, and so forth. Its crazy but this sim is very accurate and its close enough to argue down to those types of details.

Try this website:

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm

Go down to "IAS/TAS Chart by ClnlSandersLite". Its an Excel spreadsheet with all of the conversion charts. Mostly for people flying bombers who need this stuff to setup the bombsight.

Anyways at 8100 meters a plane flying at 350kph IAS is actually flying at 536kph TAS. Thats a pretty significant difference. Perhaps the gun footage you were looking at showed the TAS value. I've never seen that on gun camera footage. In the plane cockpits the IAS is typically shown only. In some planes like the Me-262 they had both.

This sims speeds are, in most cases, right on the money and certainly not a 100kph or more off. At least not from 0 to 10,000 meters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>old war footage was shot in 8mm film or 16mm-also depends on what speed camera was running at-also depends what speed it was viewed at. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Huh????? OK, we take a 16mm and use slow motion on it. B-17 doing 180, fighter doing 250. You will see it fly on by and you will see that the fighter is traveling faster than the B-17. Do it real time for the 16mm. Same. The eye, I believe, sees 15 frames per second. No matter what it was recorded with and speed, the faster craft would be noticable. This still does not belay the fact that testing in game, altitude reduces performance to the point of unflyability. I tested a few last night. The aircraft were coughing and sputtering at 20000+ feet. I can not explain it. Yet we have others claiming blasting through stacked B-17 at 25000 feet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-22-2007, 03:14 PM
Guys!

It's been well known for years that very high altitude moddeling is off in this sim

The name of the sim is Il2 Sturmovik. Do you know why?

The game was supposed to feature the Il2 as flyable and that's it no 109s, 190s, P-51s, P-40s B-25s, etc etc, and hence it was to model low to mid altitude flight

The performance envelope of the sim was pushed WAY past it's intent YEARS ago.

if this is news to old members, I'm sorry but that's the facts. For new members, this sim is the evolution of a sim released in 2001 for the purposes I listed above. It is not perfect and was never intended to accurately model very high altitude

Hun_in_the_sun
02-22-2007, 03:30 PM
I have a saitek cyborg evo force joystick. But why are the magnetos useless? Why do you have that function then? In Germany they have three 109 flying(me air company and the messerschmitt stiftung). I have a dvd of them. You see the pilot sometimes switching the magnetos, but I don't understand why. But the sound of the aircraft is super! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

JG53Frankyboy
02-22-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
I have a saitek cyborg evo force joystick. But why are the magnetos useless? Why do you have that function then? In Germany they have three 109 flying(me air company and the messerschmitt stiftung). I have a dvd of them. You see the pilot sometimes switching the magnetos, but I don't understand why. But the sound of the aircraft is super! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

that has something to do with the security of REAL flying - guess why you have two magnetoes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
but before start you check them both with switching the second out.
in game, it has no usefullness............
why this function is in, well,............................................. ............................................. bored programmer , maybe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WB_Outlaw
02-22-2007, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
@Outlaw

Was your test online or off-line? Would that make a difference? The few planes I messed with I did online.

All flight model calcs are done client side so I know of no reason why the aircraft performance should differ offline versus online. I will test the aircraft you did and see if there's a difference.

--Outlaw.

WB_Outlaw
02-22-2007, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Hun_in_the_sun:
I have a saitek cyborg evo force joystick. But why are the magnetos useless? Why do you have that function then? In Germany they have three 109 flying(me air company and the messerschmitt stiftung). I have a dvd of them. You see the pilot sometimes switching the magnetos, but I don't understand why. But the sound of the aircraft is super! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Aside from a pre-flight runup test, the magnetos should not be switched from both during flight. If you are seeing this then I would be willing to bet a lot of someone else's money that it's not a "real" video.

--Outlaw.

WB_Outlaw
02-22-2007, 05:21 PM
I just ran a quick test with the late model P-40 and it cranked out 300kph indicated at 25000 feet.

Note that I did not climb to this alt but it was a sustained level speed test after doing some maneuvering.

--Outlaw.

WWMaxGunz
02-22-2007, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

the trimm has nothing to do with your speed.



I have found that elevator trim definitely has an effect upon speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how ever you fly horizontal, if trimmed with elevator or with putting the stick forward, there should be no difference........... or should be ?

rudder trimm, ok, i was in the 109, that has none as already mentioned http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends on if you can hold the stick exactly, not + or - 1/250th of stick travel.
And note that if your sliders are not all the same number that the more off center you have
to hold the stick, the more change every little twitch or change makes from stick as center.

Use the trim right and you will go faster and aim better.

Hun, slip is when your plane is not pointing in the direction it is moving. You can tell
by the ball in most planes or by Slip and Bank needles in Spitfires, down on the lower right
front instrument panel. Between trim (109 rudder is set for trim at high cruise on the
ground even if it isn't adjustable while in flight), speed and prop/wing/tail effects you
have to keep changing rudder to keep the ball near center. It is good though, you can
learn enough to get a feel and only need to check once in a while like car speedometer.
It is hard for gamers though since spending time flying instruments instead of shoot until
you die is not the average at all! But good habits don't get learned when distracted by
targets and threats, do they?

JG52Karaya-X
02-23-2007, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
you dont need the magnetos in any plane in game - its actually a senseless function (in game)

Why are they senseless, they work just like the magnetos work on a real plane.

M1 = first magneto circle on the spark plugs
M2 = second magneto circle on the spark plugs
M1+M2 = both magneto circles

Note: Only on M1+M2 your engine will deliver full power, if you set it to M1 or M2 you will notice a slight drop in rpms (just like in real life), set the magnetos to off and your engine will of course seize, no spark --> no ignition

I have already had my engine on the 109s shot out only to find out that after fiddling around with the magnetos I could restart it, so I wouldnt call them senseless!

AVGWarhawk
02-23-2007, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
I just ran a quick test with the late model P-40 and it cranked out 300kph indicated at 25000 feet.

Note that I did not climb to this alt but it was a sustained level speed test after doing some maneuvering.

--Outlaw.

Last night we tried the mission generator program. Hurri 1938 and 1940 109, 20000 feet and the Hurri was just fine. Moved mixture up to 120% and she was smoking like a Banshi and sputtering. So I know that function was working in game. Just very odd. I find the best play is around 15000 feet to 20000 feet. Not much beyond that. I see someone posted original game was low altitude IL2 fun so this is the reason for high altitude issues. I will buy that reasoning.

WB_Outlaw
02-23-2007, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Moved mixture up to 120% and she was smoking like a Banshi and sputtering. So I know that function was working in game. Just very odd.

This is not odd at all as you need to lean the mixture as you climb. Of course some aircraft have auto mixture so you don't have to hassle with it manually.

I have yet to see any game killing performance issues with altitudes up to 9000 meters.

--Outlaw.

AVGWarhawk
02-23-2007, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Moved mixture up to 120% and she was smoking like a Banshi and sputtering. So I know that function was working in game. Just very odd.

This is not odd at all as you need to lean the mixture as you climb. Of course some aircraft have auto mixture so you don't have to hassle with it manually.

I have yet to see any game killing performance issues with altitudes up to 9000 meters.

--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was messing with mixture to see it was working and what effect it would have. So I hit the 120% mix and she was smoking. I knew then this part of the modeled game was working. I reduced back to 100% because that is all the game would give me. Other than that, the hurri had flown quite nicely. I trust your assessment concerning this but to satisfy my own curiosity I still have other aircraft to fool with concerning this. Hun seems to see this happening, some planes I have tried this on seem to have this issue. I do however find Huns assessment of the 109 baffling as we were up against 109's with in this game(people flown 109's) and there was no issue. Fiddling around continues!

zebulon64
02-27-2007, 10:32 AM
I did a quick test in QMB (game 4.04m):

BF109-G10 Altitude 8000-8100 meters

between 380km/h and 420Km/h IAS (ca. 570km/h - 650km/h TAS) depending on power with or witout WEP and radiator settings

BF109-G6 late Altitude 8000-8100 meters

between 350km/h and 390Km/h IAS (ca. 530km/h - 600km/h TAS) depending on power and radiator settings

BF109-G6 late Altitude 8500 meters 330km/h IAS (ca. 510km/h TAS) max.

FW190-A8 Altitude 8100 meters 320km/h IAS max. (ca. 500km/h TAS)

each test lasted only 5 minutes. So If you try out more settings you might still getting some other results.

Did not stall in hard turn - flies not too bad. You just have to keep in mind that at this altitude the air is thinner and also your visual references to the ground are not the same as at lower altitudes. That might give you a "different" feeling of you maneuvers AND off course you already judge you airspeed naturaly slower than it is. Maybe you 'think' you should be able to turn better but if you would try to do the same turn at that particulry TAS at ca. 2000 meters you might end up with a similar result.

I'm not a expert though - just my 2 cents for what it's worth...

JerryFodder
02-28-2007, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by slappedsilly:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There is a colour movie of a mission of a couple of b17 bombers(about 30 min). The altitude on which they fly is approximately 25000 feet(they are callng that on the radio).

I usually don't fly that high, but the other day I made a mission with some p51's in it and figured they may do better that high. I couldn't play the mission because the horizon was so distracting. It looked like I was 125,000 ft. I could see the curve of the earth!
The sim looks great down low, but up high, no thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you stand on top of Mt Everest you'll be at 29,000ft where you will see the curvature of the earth. But you don't need to be that high, you can see curvature from Mt Kilimanjaro at 19,000ft.

AVGWarhawk
02-28-2007, 01:48 PM
Maybe I'm just delusional. We have been messing with campaigns and flying at 20000 feet the planes seem fine. Ok, I'm good now. I need to stay off the glue http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Hawgdog
03-01-2007, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by AVGWarhawk:
Maybe I'm just delusional.

Flying delusional since 2001! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif