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Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 03:34 PM
Oho! This dreaded topic rears its ugly head again!

But maybe it won't be so bad this time...

My daughters' recent interest in ol' Dads' hobby (Finally, I'll have cover!) has raised some interesting questions, most of them posed by her. Specifically, "How do you fly in formation?"

How do I? Not very well, I should think. However, not half bad either and getting better but that still doesn't answer "how?". I started to utter the old standby of "practice, practice, practice" but then thought better of it (I mean, how helpful is that? Really?) and switched to the answer I often provided my superiors as a young Corporal.

"I'll find out."

So I've recently spent a not inconsiderable amount of time searching the forums for "specific" tidbits of wisdom regarding formation flying. And when I say "tidbits" that's what I mean because, by far, the most prevalent nugget of knowledge I found was, "practice, practice, practice."

However, I did manage to glean a few useful pieces of information and decided to post them here (along with some of my own observations) bullet style and then cede the floor to anyone else who may have some specific hint or tip to contribute.

1. Joystick settings - believe it or not I never actually saw this posted (heck, I didn't read ALL of the dang things...there were thousands!). The first time I actually began making progress in my Flying In Formation (FIF) skill was after using joystick settings posted by VF-51 Dart (we have the same rig...thanks, Dart! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif).

Entered into conf.ini

1X=0 5 10 20 32 48 62 75 89 100 100 0
1Y=0 3 8 17 29 41 54 66 81 95 100 0
And this line is for Yaw.
1RZ=0 30 45 62 87 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

I currently use Capt. Eric Browns' settings. You can find out more here:here is the link to the review of FB by Captain E "Winkle" Brown WW2 Test Pilot (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6641041752?r=2661042752#2661042752) (Yes, I know the flight model has changed...sheesh!)

Pitch 0, 1, 3, 7, 9, 14, 18, 23, 27, 33
Roll 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17
Yaw 0, 0, 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 16

These have made a world of difference although you may have to fiddle with Yaw. I found maneuvering on the ground very difficult with these yaw settings.

2. Catching up - This was by far the most numerous complaint...catching up to the AI. It's been said many times and I'll reiterate it here: Don't point your nose at the plane you're trying to catch! After take-off raise your gear and flaps, level out to build up speed and THEN start to climb. QED.

3. Trim - Learn to use trim. Trim won't keep you in formation but it sure helps! A problem I still have is slipping to one side or the other while trying to stay with my leader. I've found a little extra rudder trim opposite the direction of engine torque helps keep me from weaving back and forth so much. And elevator trim helps keep me from bobbing up and down (I know it looks like the other plane is doing the bobbing but it's not...it's you).

4. Matching speed - This is the one I have the most trouble with. I'm either going too fast or too slow (the third most common complaint). A few observations--If you are on your leader's right side and he turns right...throttle back. If he turns left...throttle up. Okay...only one observation. That's all I got. Still working on it. Baldie Jr. recommended in one of his posts to put the plane on autopilot and note the RPM then take it off autopilot and try to match that RPM. Sounds like good advice so I'm going to give it a whirl tonight.

5. Use cockpit spars as a reference. This was oft posted by BearCat and something I discovered independently (as I'm sure others have). Not much help for y'all using no-cockpit-view but having a reference is a big help.

6. Distraction - FIF is not easy at all. At least not like it was done IRL. I've read several pilot accounts that mentioned sticking the best navigator up front as the lead plane because it took a pilots' complete attention to stay in formation. Especially in rough weather. So, don't get distracted! (yeah, right...try doing that while lighting a smoke or, more often than not, the kids find a new bug and I have to see it "right now!"). Pshaw.

Interestingly enough I came across this: The Formation Pilot's Mindset (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5131085624?r=5551076624#5551076624)
It's a treatise not on flying in formation really but different ways to approach thinking about flying in formation and...aw heck...just read it. It was posted a few months ago by ZK-DABLIN and it doesn't look like it received much attention (a common occurrence around here). An interesting read if nothing else.

And last, but not least...

7. Practice, practice, practice...

That's it. I'm done. Anybody got anything else?

S!

SeaFireLIV
08-09-2006, 04:30 PM
My very basic advice to formation flying is:

1. Start out quite wide apart with wingman behind on left/right (where the leader - YOU- can see em).

2. The wingman (your daughter), will need to match your speed settings. You MUST tell her what your speeds are at regular intervals. She`ll need to constantly make fine adjustments to throttle, rudder and maybe some to trim (trimming does help).

Also, she`ll need to keep a constant eye on YOU and her plane`s bearing. I recommend TIR to effectively do this.


That`ll do for starters.

Advanced course later.

xTHRUDx
08-09-2006, 04:38 PM
here is a thread on our forum that goes into detail on formation flying with pics and diagrams

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620

mortoma1958
08-09-2006, 04:38 PM
I fly formation and I don't have TIR. I simply hit F9 to take the view from snap to pan view and then hit numpad 4 or 6, depending on which side of the formation I'm flying on. I just sit there watch the plane next to me and I can fly like that all day. I have been flying in formation with AI for so long I can keep nearly perfect formation in any plane, even slow throttling jets such as the 262. I will say jets make it hard, since you have to make slow adjustments, lest you accidentally flame out your engine catch it on fire.

vocatx
08-09-2006, 05:00 PM
The guys I fly co-ops with came up with a great system to help formation flying. It works as long as you are flying the same aircraft with similar load outs. We use complex engine management, so the leader will call out his manifold pressure and RPM, or his throttle and pitch percentages. This, when used along with airspeed, makes it much easier to join and remain in a formation.

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Also, she`ll need to keep a constant eye on YOU and her plane`s bearing. I recommend TIR to effectively do this.


That`ll do for starters.

Advanced course later.

Hmmm...so what I really need to do is start a thread titled "How to sneak a new TIR and HOTAS setup past my wife..." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by mortoma1958:
I fly formation and I don't have TIR. I simply hit F9 to take the view from snap to pan view and then hit numpad 4 or 6, depending on which side of the formation I'm flying on. I just sit there watch the plane next to me and I can fly like that all day. I have been flying in formation with AI for so long I can keep nearly perfect formation in any plane, even slow throttling jets such as the 262. I will say jets make it hard, since you have to make slow adjustments, lest you accidentally flame out your engine catch it on fire.

Which brings us back to the whole "practice, practice, practice" thing. Gotcha. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ol' Bessy's engine is always catching fire and she's a 210 mph prop plane. Can't figure out why...

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
here is a thread on our forum that goes into detail on formation flying with pics and diagrams

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620

Thanks, Thrud. Any idea how I can get special access to the forum?

S!

SeaFireLIV
08-09-2006, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Also, she`ll need to keep a constant eye on YOU and her plane`s bearing. I recommend TIR to effectively do this.


That`ll do for starters.

Advanced course later.

Hmmm...so what I really need to do is start a thread titled "How to sneak a new TIR and HOTAS setup past your wife..." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hotas? I don`t have Hotas. Did I give that impression.

You can use the hat switch, I used it for one year before going to TIR. Hat switch isn`t impossible, I flew formation with it. So use that and sure, you figured it out, practise.

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Also, she`ll need to keep a constant eye on YOU and her plane`s bearing. I recommend TIR to effectively do this.


That`ll do for starters.

Advanced course later.

Hmmm...so what I really need to do is start a thread titled "How to sneak a new TIR and HOTAS setup past your wife..." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hotas? I don`t have Hotas. Did I give that impression.

You can use the hat switch, I used it for one year before going to TIR. Hat switch isn`t impossible, I flew formation with it. So use that and sure, you figured it out, practise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol...no but my daughter has already "adopted" my rig so whenever we fly I'm stuck using the mouse for views and the butterfly triggers on her Saitek Cyborg for rudder. I NEED another TIR and HOTAS setup. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

mortoma1958
08-09-2006, 06:52 PM
Actually I'd think that switching to Pan view and using the numpad is probably superior to using TIR and as good as using a hat switch in pan mode. With TIR you'd have to crane your neck to one side
while looking straight ahead with your eyes on the monitor. I'd think that would suck after a while. If you used a hat switch in snap mode you'd have to hold the hat switch in that position for a long time too. Not good.

T_O_A_D
08-09-2006, 07:02 PM
You need a Flight leader to have a Formation.

Without one with enough patence or skill to maintain a decent flight, forming on him/her is nothing but work.

He must fly 70 to 80% throttle and make slow corrections in flight path, with call outs on his intentions with enough lead time before acting upon them.



Originally posted by mortoma1958:
Actually I'd think that switching to Pan view and using the numpad is probably superior to using TIR and as good as using a hat switch in pan mode. With TIR you'd have to crane your neck to one side
while looking straight ahead with your eyes on the monitor. I'd think that would suck after a while. If you used a hat switch in snap mode you'd have to hold the hat switch in that position for a long time too. Not good.

Not true if your TIR is setup properly.

xTHRUDx
08-09-2006, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
here is a thread on our forum that goes into detail on formation flying with pics and diagrams

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620



Thanks, Thrud. Any idea how I can get special access to the forum?

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, Moses, i didn't realize that section was in a private section. i'll repost the data into this one.

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
You need a Flight leader to have a Formation.

Without one with enough patence or skill to maintain a decent flight, forming on him/her is nothing but work.

He must fly 70 to 80% throttle and make slow corrections in flight path, with call outs on his intentions with enough lead time before acting upon them.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma1958:
Actually I'd think that switching to Pan view and using the numpad is probably superior to using TIR and as good as using a hat switch in pan mode. With TIR you'd have to crane your neck to one side
while looking straight ahead with your eyes on the monitor. I'd think that would suck after a while. If you used a hat switch in snap mode you'd have to hold the hat switch in that position for a long time too. Not good.

Not true if your TIR is setup properly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. I have no problem keeping my eye on the leader with TIR. In fact, because it's such a natural movement I think it makes staying in formation easier.

Turn your head and you look out the window. Or turn your head slightly and keep the leader just inside your peripheral vision.

It's wonderful to look away for a quick second to check your gauges or scan for bad guys and then a quick glance back at the leader. It's a lot like driving (without that extra dimension). Check your side mirrors, then check your rearview mirror, then check your speedometer, then check...well...you get the idea. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
here is a thread on our forum that goes into detail on formation flying with pics and diagrams

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620



Thanks, Thrud. Any idea how I can get special access to the forum?

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, Moses, i didn't realize that section was in a private section. i'll repost the data into this one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol...no worries. Much appreciated! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 10:09 PM
Well, I set up a formation flying mission and did some experimenting.

I used two SBDs with 100% fuel and 3x500lb bombs at 8150ft (2500m) and 260kph.

Once I started the mission I engaged the autopilot and noted the engine settings. It seems that manifold pressure plays a much bigger role than PP or RPM. It was a little tricky getting the throttle settings but I discovered a pretty easy way. Once the planes had settled into the flight I disengaged the autopilot and hit the increase throttle key. The throttle would increase 5% and display on the screen. I just subtracted 5 from the display and that gave me the AI throttle setting.

I then disengaged the autopilot and I'll tell you what...I had a MUCH easier time staying in formation. I got quite close in fact. Once the plane was trimmed I only had to make small adjustments to the throttle (never more than 1% or 2%) to stay in formation and I could fly for several minutes without having to do even that.

It seems, as mentioned previously, that knowing the leaders throttle and PP settings is a major part of flying in formation.

I also noticed that the AI doesn't adjust the PP. Just the throttle. It uses whatever PP setting you had prior to engaging the autopilot. If you set your PP too low the AI will never be able to catch up to the leader. I know...irrelevant to the topic (but interesting just the same).

Additionally, I noticed that the AI would speed up or slow down occasionally (maybe to ensure its ETA? I've seen this complaint posted before). Not a lot mind you but still very noticeable. I still only had to make small adjustments to compensate.

I played around with the throttle and PP and came up with these rough numbers:

Prop. Pitch--------100% 90% 85%
RPM---------------2200 2100 2150
Manifold Pres.-----28.5 27.5 27
Speed (kts)-------136 136 136 (duh!)
Speed (kph)-------290 290 290 (double duh!)
Throttle (avg.)----70 74 92

Hmmm...that looks like a table (anyone know how to get the !@#$% columns to line up?). I feel another guide coming on...

Another thing I noticed, and this is a question for you mission building gurus, was that the AI doesn't fly the speed specified in the mission. I set the speed to 260kph and, as you can see, it decided it would rather fly 290kph. I wonder if this is related to the level bombing bug...the disparities are similar.

Crash_Moses
08-10-2006, 07:00 AM
bump http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VF-51-Dart
08-10-2006, 11:55 AM
Toad hit the nail on the head. It's all about the Flight Lead. He's got to keep power to an appropriate setting that will allow his formation to fall into place. Lead should be calling out power, course, altitude, prop, cowl flap position, canopy open/closed, and mixture settings, etc. during the flight. Any change in course should be done smoothly and in a way to allow your formation to stay intact. Having a SOP for your flight is a great way to reduce confusion and keep everyone together.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

AWL_Spinner
08-10-2006, 12:31 PM
The biggest issue I've found in my years in online war formation flying is throttle control. By far.

Position, attitude, altitude can all be modified in a direct manner.

Speed through throttle control must be led due to acceleration lag / deceleration momentum. That takes a while to get used to.

But yes, it's practice, and a flight leader who is well aware you can't formate on a pilot with his throttle wide open.

Crash_Moses
08-10-2006, 02:16 PM
Awww, c'mon you two...I said specific! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But seriously, I've already picked up a few things. One is you gotta know the leads engine settings as Mr. Dart so aptly pointed out. Makes a huge difference.

And Spinner hit it right on the mark too. My throttle control was horrible. Small changes, Moses...small changes...

But I'm mostly concerned with flying in formation with the AI. Not for my sake obviously, but just to help her out. I can't always fly with her because of my job and we both can't be on the 'net at the same time because of our connection so I've encouraged (okay...she demanded...) solo time and that means AI.

I guess I'm gonna have to approach this the same way I did the bombing tables and just dive in and look for a pattern...

See ya in a few months! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VF-51-Dart
08-10-2006, 03:06 PM
Formation flying with the Artificial Idiots is something I've never enjoyed, and we rarely do in our sqauad...thank goodness! If you can manage to get both of you together on your own network that would be best for training IMO.

T_O_A_D
08-10-2006, 06:10 PM
Since it is not Top secret, I moved it to a public room Crash_Moses

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620&sid=15991d...cdf1835b964e2bcb5d84 (http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620&sid=15991ddcf568cdf1835b964e2bcb5d84)

Charos
08-10-2006, 08:20 PM
Formation flying has one purpose and one purpose only (Cross Cover).

Everything else is iceing and candles.

Any formation that does not constantly address crosscover, be it in course corrections, element adjustments due to changes in flight numbers or according to sun position.

Without that your just flying in a gaggle.

I wouldnt trust anything that VF-51 Dart character said - he's got no idea by the looks of him.

G'Day from your downunder adversaries Dart http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

mortoma1958
08-10-2006, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by VF-51-Dart:
Formation flying with the Artificial Idiots is something I've never enjoyed, and we rarely do in our sqauad...thank goodness! If you can manage to get both of you together on your own network that would be best for training IMO. Formation flying with AI is a piece of cake, takes little skill!!! And is good practice. If you can't fly with the AI, you can't fly with a human either. Besides, I've been online for years on and off and almost never see anybody fly formation. They usually just take off and go, everybody to themselves.

Crash_Moses
08-10-2006, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
Since it is not Top secret, I moved it to a public room Crash_Moses

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620&sid=15991d...cdf1835b964e2bcb5d84 (http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=620&sid=15991ddcf568cdf1835b964e2bcb5d84)

Thanks a bunch Toad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'll check it out tomorrow at work when I'm supposed to be...um...working.

S!

Crash_Moses
08-10-2006, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Charos:
I wouldnt trust anything that VF-51 Dart character said - he's got no idea by the looks of him.

G'Day from your downunder adversaries Dart http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tell me about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

He keeps shooting me down!

Crash_Moses
08-10-2006, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by VF-51-Dart:
Formation flying with the Artificial Idiots is something I've never enjoyed, and we rarely do in our sqauad...thank goodness! If you can manage to get both of you together on your own network that would be best for training IMO.

I have to agree with you there. But I do enjoy off-line campaigns (especially considering my lousy internet connection) and my work schedule doesn't make me as available to my family as I would like. I figure any practice is good practice...especially for a beginner.

BTW. Had a great time tonight. Thanks for the invite.

S!

Charos
08-10-2006, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by mortoma1958:
Formation flying with AI is a piece of cake, takes little skill!!! And is good practice. If you can't fly with the AI, you can't fly with a human either. Besides, I've been online for years on and off and almost never see anybody fly formation. They usually just take off and go, everybody to themselves.


AI have never heard of Cross turns, delayed turns, line abreast.

AI Wingman love to sit on your 6.

AI leads love changing direction when they feel so inclined without telling you.

AI leads love 40 Celsius engine temps and only know balls to the wall.

AI Wingman tell you to watch your six after your left wing has been sawn off.

AI dont know what a landing pattern involves.

AI wingman cant coordinate a drag.

AI are next to useless - Human on Human is where its at.

I have flown formation on Pubs more often than not - you have to find the right people though otherwise your wasting your time.

leitmotiv
08-11-2006, 12:37 AM
Try BATTLE OF BRITAIN II from Shockwave. The AI is smart. An RAF fighter squadron forms vics right behind you like disciplined bees, and they are on your wing, believe me. Try a quick turn like you would with finger four and the whole squadron crashes right into you and each other. With BOB2 you can live out dreams of being Doug Bader. The enemy AI is worlds away from Maddox. Fire one burst at them and they flit out of sight unless you are lucky enough to randomly come across a novice. Maddox AI is game, BOB2 AI is simulation. And, thank God you don't have to deal with temperamental online players!

VF-51-Dart
08-11-2006, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Charos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma1958:
Formation flying with AI is a piece of cake, takes little skill!!! And is good practice. If you can't fly with the AI, you can't fly with a human either. Besides, I've been online for years on and off and almost never see anybody fly formation. They usually just take off and go, everybody to themselves.


AI have never heard of Cross turns, delayed turns, line abreast.

AI Wingman love to sit on your 6.

AI leads love changing direction when they feel so inclined without telling you.

AI leads love 40 Celsius engine temps and only know balls to the wall.

AI Wingman tell you to watch your six after your left wing has been sawn off.

AI dont know what a landing pattern involves.

AI wingman cant coordinate a drag.

AI are next to useless - Human on Human is where its at.

I have flown formation on Pubs more often than not - you have to find the right people though otherwise your wasting your time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed 100% Charos. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Hence Artificial Idiots. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Much fun tonight Crash. Looking forward to more flying with you. Really need to see if you can join us on TS next time.

leitmotiv
08-11-2006, 12:43 AM
Crash_Moses is grooming his daughter to be the next Curtis LeMay. When all the other girls are dreaming of being movie stars or soccer stars, she'll be working out group boxes for Fortresses, how the Buffs should have been used in Linebacker II, how to use heavy assets to take down Iran, and, by 25, leading a Wing of Buffs! Cheers, Butch Harris Jr

Crash_Moses
08-11-2006, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Crash_Moses is grooming his daughter to be the next Curtis LeMay. When all the other girls are dreaming of being movie stars or soccer stars, she'll be working out group boxes for Fortresses, how the Buffs should have been used in Linebacker II, how to use heavy assets to take down Iran, and, by 25, leading a Wing of Buffs! Cheers, Butch Harris Jr

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Darn tootin'! And she's not afraid of bugs either! (A quality I admire in anyone...)


Originally posted by VF-51-Dart:
Much fun tonight Crash. Looking forward to more flying with you. Really need to see if you can join us on TS next time.

I sure hope I can! I have this image of Flatspin--beet red--screaming "Your left, you idiot! No! Your military left!" as spittle covers his monitor while his family slowly backs out of the room...(honest Leitmotiv, you don't know what you're missing. Ya gotta get on-line) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by Charos:
Formation flying has one purpose and one purpose only (Cross Cover).

Everything else is iceing and candles.

Any formation that does not constantly address crosscover, be it in course corrections, element adjustments due to changes in flight numbers or according to sun position.

Without that your just flying in a gaggle.

Good point. From Dauntless by Peter C. Smith:


Once all the dive bombers had been launched they would be vectored out to their own segment of sky above the Task Force to form up in flights. At times of maximum all-out effort all eighteen Dauntless dive bombers would be airborne in three groups of six aircraft: the more normal wartime strike however would be twelve SBDs in two divisions of six aircraft each, each division composed of two three-plane sections. Here the dive bombbers differed from the two-plane sections of the fighters and scouts, the third aircraft providing a strong defensive box. Strict discipline was maintained to hold the formation tight so as to present any intercepting Zero fighter with a mass of defensive fire-power, and this was often a sufficient deterrent. However, tight boxes, suitable though they were as a defence against fighters, gave long-range anti-aircraft guns a good solid target to engage. Nonetheless this flight formation was strictly maintained for as long as possible after initial form-up until just before the attack phase.

S! All!

VF-51-Dart
08-11-2006, 12:39 PM
Nothing like coming back to the boat in a sharp formation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

cawimmer430
08-11-2006, 12:45 PM
When I am flying with a formation in pilot career, and I see enemy fighters - I break off the formation and attack.

You guys should hear my AI flight leader curse. Sorry old man, I am all out for glory. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Crash_Moses
08-11-2006, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by VF-51-Dart:
Nothing like coming back to the boat in a sharp formation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Gives me goose bumps... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Downloaded latest version of TS2 and a couple registery/modem tweakers. We'll see what happens...

VF-51-Dart
08-11-2006, 04:36 PM
Excellent! We've got members on dialup that are still able to connect and fly. Hope you will be able to, then you can get in on the formation stuff with us. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Crash_Moses
08-11-2006, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
When I am flying with a formation in pilot career, and I see enemy fighters - I break off the formation and attack.

You guys should hear my AI flight leader curse. Sorry old man, I am all out for glory. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/Ernestspeaks1-1-1.jpg

leitmotiv
08-11-2006, 11:46 PM
At Santa Cruz the HORNET's unescorted tight formation of VB and VS Dauntlesses fought their way through Zeros to a perfect run on SHOKAKU which nearly sank her and put her out of action for months. The only loss on the run in was, I believe, their furious leader who had made it nearly to the tip over point when his damaged engine gave out (he and his gunner were luckily fished out of the drink by a PBY). For my money, the greatest naval air attack of WWII, barring no nation. Anchors aweigh!

alphalvr
08-12-2006, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by mortoma1958:
Actually I'd think that switching to Pan view and using the numpad is probably superior to using TIR and as good as using a hat switch in pan mode. With TIR you'd have to crane your neck to one side
while looking straight ahead with your eyes on the monitor. I'd think that would suck after a while. If you used a hat switch in snap mode you'd have to hold the hat switch in that position for a long time too. Not good.

you are sooooo wrong, tut tut.

i use chavs??? settings (never used the original ones) and my head doesnt have to move more than the tinyest amount.....almost unnoticable.....and i do mean unoticable.

looking to the side while looking back at screen out of the corners of my eyes is not what a TIR is about.

CRO_Adriatic
08-12-2006, 06:47 AM
To practice fly in formation or just close to something can be practiced with this little mission: http://free-ri.t-com.hr/Cres-Ia/Stopping V-1.zip

Install it in single mission folder, there is more different planes to choose, it is fly start above starting V-1 rocket with good speed and alt. Really nice for practice because she fly without big speed or direction changes.
It should be kicked with wing tip, but first you have to learn to fly near it or you will explode if you touch it too strong...

CRO_Adriatic
08-12-2006, 06:53 AM
or this one...

http://free-ri.t-com.hr/Cres-Ia/Stopping_V-1.zip

Crash_Moses
08-12-2006, 07:51 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Good idea there Adriatic!

Good practice matching speeds with dire consequences if you make a mistake. And fun to boot!