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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:53 AM
Here a re a list of bugs I found with this crate :

1. If you fly straight on auto (even after circling between the different settings) radiator, you can fly endlessly (ei : until your 100% fuel are spent) with no overheating.

I made the test with QMB, Smolensk (summer) map, altitude 1000 m, 100% fuel, full realism, 110% throttle. The oil temp indicator is firmly on 120?, but no overheating. This is beyond the "radiator" bug.

2. With a FW190A4, same conditions as above I can keep a 12s/180? turn rate without loss of altitude forever or so it seems. There is no loss of energy. My speed (TAS) will vary from 325 to 358 km/h depending on altitude gradient. I tested with 110% throttle and 100% and got similar results. By the way, I experienced no overheating.

I think there is more than just an overly good rollrate to this plane...

I wonder why those simple tests were no done by anyone on this board.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:53 AM
Here a re a list of bugs I found with this crate :

1. If you fly straight on auto (even after circling between the different settings) radiator, you can fly endlessly (ei : until your 100% fuel are spent) with no overheating.

I made the test with QMB, Smolensk (summer) map, altitude 1000 m, 100% fuel, full realism, 110% throttle. The oil temp indicator is firmly on 120?, but no overheating. This is beyond the "radiator" bug.

2. With a FW190A4, same conditions as above I can keep a 12s/180? turn rate without loss of altitude forever or so it seems. There is no loss of energy. My speed (TAS) will vary from 325 to 358 km/h depending on altitude gradient. I tested with 110% throttle and 100% and got similar results. By the way, I experienced no overheating.

I think there is more than just an overly good rollrate to this plane...

I wonder why those simple tests were no done by anyone on this board.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:21 AM
The "closed/auto" setting in the A4 eventually results in a open radiator flap, taking away around 50 km/h top speed. Flying fast, the engine won't overheat then but at slow speed it will, due to the lower air flow through the radiator.
This could be a bug, not sure if the A4 was just another boring "WEP forever" aircraft.
Can't comment if the turn rate is off (realistic values?), the values you measured agree with the object viewer (360?/24s@1000m) but then again who says that these values are correct.

edit: a working temperature gauge in the 190s would be welcome. It doesn't help much when the temperature indicator is always stuck at 120? even when the engine is not overheated yet. Flying the 190 without HUD messages would be more fun then.

Message Edited on 08/25/0310:23AM by JG5_JaRa

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:38 AM
I think you don't get my point JaRA :

1. The FW190A4 should overheat at 110%.

2. The FW190A4 should loose energy if trying to keep on turning at max turn rate (ei 12s/180?).

The FW190A4 in the game does not exhibit a realistic behaviour when it comes to overheating and energy retention.

When the Hurricane II of FB1.0 had such behaviour, everyone agreed this was not correct. Now I don't get why poeple talking about the FW190A4 FM don't talk about those two "features".

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:45 AM
Ah, ah, personnally, I don't get why "some people", never interested in the 190 energy retention for the past two years, are suddenly extremely interested by the Focke-Wulf!

Ah, funny days we are living /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:52 AM
CHDT can I ask from you to talk about FACTS not POEPLE ? Thanks.

By the way, can you explain WHY :

1. A FW190A4 doesn't overheat at 110%.

2. A FW190A4 doesn't loose energy when pushed at best turn rate.

The obvious answer is bug. But I may be mistaken. Can someone, including you CHDT, produce documents that would explain those phenomenons in real life ?

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:55 AM
NN_Tym wrote:
- 1. The FW190A4 should overheat at 110%.

Probably yes, I just wanted to point out that it does at slow speed.

- 2. The FW190A4 should loose energy if trying to keep
- on turning at max turn rate (ei 12s/180?).

In an instantaneous turn yes, but not in a sustained turn of course. The term "turn time" in the object viewer does not say if the 23-24 sec for 360? turn is for instantaneous or sustained but usually such turn times, if not specified further, represent sustained turns. Then your data would agree with the object viewer. Question is if the object viewer is right.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:58 AM
Oh, I'm the honest guy, no problem for me to admit that the A-4 should overheat or that its roll rate is perhaps a little too much (more an annoyance than an advantage in fact).

But, Tym, as you seem to be very interested in the 190, can you post for all of us the results of your tests about the energy retention of the 190 in IL-2. I presume your interest in the 190 performances is not one week old. Or is it?

It could be so interesting to make too some comparisons this way.

Thanks in advance.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:04 AM
Time to test some VVS stuff ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:44 AM
For JaRa :

For the turns, I guess they reflect the sustained turn times. I made 10+ turns for each test with the FW190A4, the first turn is faster, then I get a steady 12s/180? for each turn.

For Hristos :

I tested the FW190A4 along with the Yak1b. Those two birds belong to the same era...

1. The Yak1b overheats whatever you do at throttle 110%.

2. On a Yak1b, and after 5 turns the energy bleed is so bad that I cannot turn at best turn rate (9s/180?). Moreover, I was unable to avoid a steady height loss, if I tried to maintain a 9s/180? turn rate.

You can make the test yourself. It's very easy with the QMB.

Settings :

Smolensk map (summer)
Initial altitude : 1000 m
Realism settings : full (you may want to uncheck wind/turbulences, but it doesn't matter)
Fuel : 100%
Armament : default

I did not use the trim because I feared it would bug the turn rate.

I recorded the flight, and used the "no cockpit view" in the track to note bearing, speed (TAS) and altitude.

Just take a Yak1b and try to maintain a 9s/180? for more than 8 turns with no speed/altitude loss... Then the Yak1b and the FW190A4 will have the same bug, and I shall be proven wrong.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:53 AM
NN_Tym wrote:
- For JaRa :
-
- For the turns, I guess they reflect the sustained
- turn times. I made 10+ turns for each test with the
- FW190A4, the first turn is faster, then I get a
- steady 12s/180? for each turn.

Sustained turns are by definition at constant altitude and speed (= no energy loss), so the 12s/180? performance for te 190A4 is correct according to the object viewer. For the Yak 1B it mentions 19s/360?, so it should be possible to sustain this. If not, then the sustained turn rate in the Yak 1B is too low - albeit only slightly as the in game tests come quite close to the object viewer data.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:06 PM
I agree with NN_Tym

FW190a´s are the most bugged Planes in 1.1b.
Their Climbtimes are much to good,Autocooler themes bugged-->No overheat by climbing to 7000m with 110%+Sondernotleistung,Highspeed handling is much overdone.

Climbtime beginning at 100m High and 300KM/H IAS all on auto FR +Speedbar and outside view.

FW190A9
5000m-3:57
7000m-5:55

FW190A8
5000m-4:36
7000m-7:13

but Climbtime is not major issue because La5/7 series like most other planes are overmodelled in this regard in 1.1b.

To turntime i cant say anything because 24sec/360 would be correct Turntime for FW190.Question is at what speed did it this in realife and how long could it done this substained without alt loesse.10 complet Turns themes to much from Basic logic but how knows...

I would prefer Realistic Cockpit sightline over Super FM.
But im sure that FW190 will be fixed in next patch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
I only hope they doesnt make it a flying Brick again.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:25 PM
argh ...

You confirmed, that the turnrate of the 190 is absolutely correct and that the automatic radiator is working /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ! (Why don't you test the La5 with its radiator fully >>>opened<<< and 110%, it's the same testcondition, because the automatic radiator opens itself after a while !?)

If you were flying straight, I guess your speed was very high, so that a aircooled engine is affected more by it than the water cooled one of the Yak1B /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (and why don't you complain about the engine of the Hurricane or P39, which are water cooled engines, and either don't overheat, or overheat way too slow).


The climbrate of the A9 is correct, because it was comparable to the D9, which is absolutely correct in FB 1.1b (20-21 m/sec) (~same weight and power).
And don't forget, that the A8 and A5 use "Erh¶hte Notleistung", which increases the poweroutput to ~2000-2100 PS, for the A9 it's even 2240 PS.

The A4 climbed slower than the A5, A8, A9, D9. So it does in FB 1.1b.

IMO the climbrates, which are given in books etc. were reached with 100%, the so called "Climb- and Combatpower" (=100%).


Hmm and regarding the Energyretention: Because of the power of it's engine, it wasn't as bad as you want it to !
But if you turned with flaps, I agree with you, because they are overmodeled (they don't brake enough, but produce a lot of lift).
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Message Edited on 08/25/0301:29PM by Atzebrueck

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:37 PM
There are definitely overheating problems on the Anton.

The 110% rating was rated for 3 minutes max, the Erh¶hteNotleistung was rated for 10 minutes but ONLY on level flight, and it was not recommanded to use it in climb as the airflow was not sufficient to cool the engine. It will probably be corrected in the final patch.



Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:44 PM
Col.Kurtz wrote:
-
- FW190a´s are the most bugged Planes in 1.1b.

Are you sure ?

- Yaks radiators are immune to any shot.

- Yaks do not suffer aerodynamic drag due to impacts.

- Yaks do not suffer any more any handling problems under multiple hits until wings and tail properly breaks.

- Yaks motors suffers damages only when hit :
A) by the front at a small semi circular area around the lower propeller axis
b) by perpendicular and 3/4 frontal shoots on a small rectangular area under exhaust pipes.

- No fuel leaks for the Yak1b and Yak3

- 12.7x108 and 20x99R machineguns and canons still presents questionnables accuracy, rates of fire ( particulary synchonised weapons ), velocities, flatnened trajectory and dammage effects considering theyr bullets and shells.



Message Edited on 08/25/0309:49PM by Maraudeur

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:56 PM
For JaRa,

I made further tests on turn rates.

With the Yak1b, at 100% throttle, I get a steady turn with no altitude loss at 20s per turn. If I try to grab the additional 1s, I get the energy loss.

The only way to have a sustained turn rate (or rather duration) to 19s, is to set the throttle to 110%, but I fry my engine real fast.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:46 PM
If you know, where the 190's radiator is located, you should know, that the A-4's radiator is open all time.
The "Closed/Auto" setting is the same nonsense as the other stages.
Closeable radiators for the 190 were, in fact first installed with the A-5...some A-4s were retrofitted but not that many...

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:51 PM
- The climbrate of the A9 is correct, because it was
- comparable to the D9, which is absolutely correct in
- FB 1.1b (20-21 m/sec) (~same weight and power).
- And don't forget, that the A8 and A5 use "Erh¶hte
- Notleistung", which increases the poweroutput to
- ~2000-2100 PS, for the A9 it's even 2240 PS.
-
- The A4 climbed slower than the A5, A8, A9, D9. So it
- does in FB 1.1b.
-
- IMO the climbrates, which are given in books etc.
- were reached with 100%, the so called "Climb- and
- Combatpower" (=100%

22m/sec is initial Climbrate for Dora9

Ingame we get:
For Dora9/model44 22.7m/sec substained Climb to 5000m and 20.7m/sec to 7000m

FW190A8 has 18.1m/sec substained climb to 5000m and 16.2m/sec to 7000m

after this Webside that themes acurate Dora9 has 6:41min to 7000m at Sonder Notleistung. In Game we get 5:38min to 7000m wich is 1 min to fast
http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/steigzeiten.htm
http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/steigleistungen.htm

But this is no great Bug /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif because La7/La7 climbs over 1min to fast to 5000m and no one complain about them /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
FM Data is Correct on FW190 but AutoCooler is not.
It themes that it gives max cooling but no Drag in Auto Mode so if Automode would buil drag because it Opens it would climb on historic level(Only FW190A Models).
It also dont overheat in Climb to 7000m(only FW190A Models)
Dora9 is nearly Correct (more correct than most planes)

Also noone can say that highspeed handling is correct because you can pull out in 3sec at 800Km/H in dive and completely blackout without useing trim /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I don´t say FW190 is Uber Plane but they are not correct and need tuning in FM like P39 and La7/5 serie.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:18 PM
" don´t say FW190 is Uber Plane but they are not correct and need tuning in FM like P39 and La7/5 serie. "


Don't forget the Yak-3 which is surprisingly strong in a dive /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:41 PM
Maraudeur wrote:
- Col.Kurtz wrote:
--
-- FW190a´s are the most bugged Planes in 1.1b.
-
- Are you sure ?
-
-- Yaks radiators are immune to any shot.

How can you prove that Maraudeur ? Maybe you're talking about AI planes...

-- Yaks do not suffer aerodynamic drag due to impacts.

False.
When a wing is hit, you get the loss of lift.

-- Yaks do not suffer any more any handling problems under multiple hits until wings and tail properly breaks.

False.
You can have, for example, the ailerons disabled.

-- Yaks motors suffers damages only when hit :
- A) by the front at a small semi circular area around
- the lower propeller axis
- b) by perpendicular and 3/4 frontal shoots on a
- small rectangular area under exhaust pipes.

False.
They can be hit from almost any angle.

-- No fuel leaks for the Yak1b and Yak3

False.
Yak1b hit in the wing can produce fuel leaks.

Now, my dear Maraudeur, you should ask me for my proofs...

Here they are, a rather big NTRK file (5 Mb sorry) :
http://gc3.normandie.niemen.free.fr/fichiers/il2/yak1b_dm_test.zip

PS : I want to thank II/JG52 BTB for his kind help.


Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:48 PM
- Don't forget the Yak-3 which is surprisingly strong
- in a dive

So master CHDT what should be the correct speed to break a Yak3 ?

In the game it seems to be 750 km/h IAS.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:22 PM
Also you can use the WEP key FOREVER in all fw190 and bf109 models which support it when using 100% throttle.



Message Edited on 08/25/0304:39PM by Slechtvalk

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:25 PM
^ with rad closed..

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:26 PM
Regarding the overheating issue (not mentioning the bugged 'auto radiator setting' it is known already), it should be pointed out that the 'auto' prop pitch setting (default, also known as Kommandergerat in the FW190) does not develope maximum RPM, even at 110%. Switch to 'manual' and 100% prop pitch (Constant Speed Prop, like La5) and 200 more RPM is available, with the associated increase in temperature.

Also note that at slower speeds (as mentioned above) over temp occurs much sooner.

The temperature guage reads maximum of 120deg, but this is not (nor has it ever been in simulated FW190, since Il2 original) an 'overheat state'. This could indeed be historically correct, as I believe air cooled engines are able to actually run hotter than liquid cooled engines; due to the fact that oil cannot 'boil away' as water (or glycol) does in liquid cooled engines. They are designed to operate at a higher temperatures (in general, of course it is best to keep them cool); thus the 'Overheat' message does not appear until that higher temperature is reached (140deg?).



Here are the results of my test (please feel free to double check me):

Smolensk, 1000m, 110% throttle (roughly 1.4ata), 100% proppitch (roughly 2630RPM), default mission start temp of 80deg, sustained 300kph turn at roughly 1000m altitude: Onscreen Overheat message occours at 3:30 (or was it 2:30? hard to read cockpit clock for me) into the mission (thats three minutes and thirty seconds).


I do not argue specifics as to when it should or should not overheat, as I do not know (from your tests Tym, I'm not sure that you know either), but it could be plausible that it is working correctly, again disregarding the known radiator bug.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:27 PM
Slechtvalk wrote:
- Also you can use the WEP key FOREVER in all fw190
- and bf109 models which support it when using 95%
- throttle.

I dont know how "Sonder Notleistung" worked with less than 100% but D9/45 and 109 with MW/50 the Boost only works with more than 100% by automatic aktivation.

So in 109 and D9 you only aktivate the Automatic.You will not get boost under 100%.
So why should you not fly forever with 95% in a K4? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Also Mw50 use was allowed for 10min and 100% for 30min use.


Message Edited on 08/25/0304:31PM by Col.Kurtz

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 03:37 PM
i think you get boost from the MW50 system if you throttle up to 101% ?!
100% have no MW50 boost.

nevertheless there is a small bug, i think its one, that if you have engaged your MW50 system (below 101%), the Manifoldpresure gauge increase its "ATA"- not more RPM and not more speed.

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:34 PM
NN_Tym wrote:
- Maraudeur wrote:
-- Col.Kurtz wrote:
---
--- FW190a´s are the most bugged Planes in 1.1b.
--
-- Are you sure ?
--
--- Yaks radiators are immune to any shot.
-
- How can you prove that Maraudeur ? Maybe you're
- talking about AI planes...
-

Every person interested with that game and having it on its hard drive can see that. Use the arcade mode to see the arrows appearing on bullets trajectories.

And as you're interested to proove I'm wrong, why didn't you used that mode ? It seems the first burst hits your Yak's radiator...


--- Yaks do not suffer aerodynamic drag due to impacts.
-
- False.
- When a wing is hit, you get the loss of lift.
-

I didn't spoke about loss of lift. I didn't say assymetric fly.
I said drag.

Flying straight on with dammages, you'll reach the same speed than without dammages.


--- Yaks do not suffer any more any handling problems under multiple hits until wings and tail properly breaks.
-
- False.
- You can have, for example, the ailerons disabled.
-

Your own track showns by itself I'm right. The game send the message " loss of controls " but you're still able to control roll.

While you should have lost total control of roll. In other planes, you obtain that message while you completely loose the controls ( for pitch, roll or yaw ).
Not while you loose one aileron.

Here is the bug.

Again, your track clearly showns a loss of lift on the right wing.
Not the lost of control on roll axis. Even not for the only right aileron.

In your own track, assymetric flying do not appears as immediately after the message for the dammaged commands ( and on a wing that already received hits ) your plane continue to fly straight on without action on the rudder.
Only loss of lift for the right wing is evident.
Assymetric drag is not.

On another forum, I already told you that drag related to max speed, loss of lift and assymetric fly are not related between themselves in the FB's DM.

You didn't considered it. Strangely now you mix them again.


--- Yaks motors suffers damages only when hit :
-- A) by the front at a small semi circular area around
-- the lower propeller axis
-- b) by perpendicular and 3/4 frontal shoots on a
-- small rectangular area under exhaust pipes.
-
- False.
- They can be hit from almost any angle.
-

You show no more proof than me on that point.


--- No fuel leaks for the Yak1b and Yak3
-
- False.
- Yak1b hit in the wing can produce fuel leaks.

You're correct on that point.


- Now, my dear Maraudeur, you should ask me for my
- proofs...
-
- Here they are, a rather big NTRK file (5 Mb sorry) :
-
http://gc3.normandie.niemen.free.fr/fichiers
- /il2/yak1b_dm_test.zip-
-
- PS : I want to thank II/JG52 BTB for his kind help.




Message Edited on 08/26/0301:39AM by Maraudeur

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:22 PM
My dear Maraudeur,

Arcade mode displaying the hit arrows only works with offline tracks. This means that you tested with AI hoping it would replicate the DM of human driven planes. If I was to use your despising tone, this would make me write : "Anyone who has played Forgotten Battles knows that teh AI uses different DM."

In the track, I could not control the roll with the stick, but I could produce some induced roll with the rudder. Get in interior view (F1) and look at the stick and rudder and what happens...

It's true that you cannot be sure that some drag was created by the hits on the wings... The damage was too dramatic for that. I could not control the plane enough to have a straight flight path !

My engine received hits from different angles, and not from the ones you mentionned as the only eligible ones.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:06 PM
NN_Tym wrote:
- My dear Maraudeur,
-
- Arcade mode displaying the hit arrows only works
- with offline tracks. This means that you tested with
- AI hoping it would replicate the DM of human driven
- planes. If I was to use your despising tone, this
- would make me write : "Anyone who has played
- Forgotten Battles knows that teh AI uses different
- DM."

Telling so is a complete free guess.

AI use different FM. Not DM.
And AI do not respond as human players.

The way they reacts or not to dammages may differ from players FM.
But this is not a different DM untll you know the gam's code.
Those are different, coded reactions or lack of reaction to the same DM.


Complete and valid tests needs :

1 - To use arcade mode to see the impacting bullets trajectory ( and the arrow do not always represent where the bullet go throught, just the trajectory, not the entire flight path - ex armoured plates stops bullet, arrows go throught - )

2- To fire at planes.
3 - To be fired at.

Would you say that if the player is targetted by AI, the DM will differ ?



Message Edited on 08/26/0303:31AM by Maraudeur

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:28 PM
1) The Fw 190 climbrates are no more exagerated than those of the La's and Yak's.

2) The Fw 190A's were known for being damn near immune to overheat except at emergancy power (110% + boost)

3) Thanks for confirming the Fw 190A4's sustained turnrate is correct

4) I don't know of anyone dumb enough to actually use auto radiator and auto prop pitch. They greatly reduce both instantanous and sustained performance even if it does elemenate overheating at emergancy power.

5) Most planes should be able to black the pilot out at high speeds except the La's. If you don't believe that, there are many gun camera films of Fw 190's soundly out turning La-5's at high speed.

6) Have you ever considered that the axis planes wern't slow, underpowered, heavy, overheated and fragile coffins?

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:32 PM
My dear Maraudeur,

Can you make an offline track that will demonstrate that any plane flown by AI have the hit-induced drag you expect to see when it's a Yak in your gunsight ?

I tried several fights with AI FW19A4, and I got the same results as your : no percieved influence of hits on a wing, until the wing breaks. This is what I always saw in fights against the AI...

Now, back on topic, what about FW190A4 energy retention in 360?/24s turns ?

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:44 PM
NN_Tym wrote:
- In the track, I could not control the roll with the
- stick, but I could produce some induced roll with
- the rudder. Get in interior view (F1) and look at
- the stick and rudder and what happens...

Let's be accurate, would you ?

The hits producing the message for loose of control appears at 7'35.
Then a loss of lift on the right wing appears.

What we can see, is that by using the stick only, approximately by the third of it's course, you stopped the plane's righted roll.

So commands are still working while they shouldn't, accordingly to the message. Here is the problem I pointed at.

Later, use of rudder seemed to help keeping the same attitude.

Then you used the rudder to induce roll at 8'08", just after severall other burst hit your wing. And probably increasing the loss of lift.
Then, and only at this moment, stick use is not enough to produce force to level your plane, while both rudder and stick actions do.

Loose of airplane's control is due to excessive lift loss, not because the commands on axis roll aren't working anymore as they should have been many more hits before.



- It's true that you cannot be sure that some drag was
- created by the hits on the wings... The damage was
- too dramatic for that. I could not control the plane
- enough to have a straight flight path !

On your track, it would have been necessary to break and try to reach max speed on levelled flight after the hits at 7'35.
At 8.08 and severall more hits later, it was too late, loss of lift on right wing too big.



- My engine received hits from different angles, and
- not from the ones you mentionned as the only
- eligible ones.

Precisely. Did it show some malfunctions ?
No.

Also, it seems the radiator received some hits, again, any malfunction to report ?

This could well adding some points to my tolds :

Yaks motors suffers damages only when hit :
A) by the front at a small semi circular area around the lower propeller axis
B) by perpendicular and 3/4 frontal shoots on a small rectangular area under exhaust pipes.

But anyway, this is not conclusive.

Plane was shoot from the six, and we cannot see exactly where and how the hits performed on the engine and radiator area.

Only a test driven in arcade mode while beeing shoot at may clearly show where and how they reached the engine.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:04 PM
Posted by Atzebrueck:

"If you were flying straight, I guess your speed was very high"

Atze,

Do you think he can actually do that???

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:57 PM
Maj_Death wrote:
- 1) The Fw 190 climbrates are no more exagerated than
- those of the La's and Yak's.

False...

The Yak1b climbs to 5000m in 5'45" for me, at 100% throttle. If I use 110% the engine is dead, but I can reach 5000m in 5'05"... If you can beat this, you are welcome to display the track.
The real number is 5.4 min (5'24").

The FW190A4 in the game has the correct climb rate only if :
1. You use only 100%
2. You make sure you cycle through radiator settings to get the auto/closed setting.
If you use the bug and 110%, you can get to 5000m in 5'40"...
The real number is 6.8 min (6'48")

- 2) The Fw 190A's were known for being damn near
- immune to overheat except at emergancy power (110% +
- boost)

False.

The pilots of the FW190A4 modeled in the game were forbidden to use the settings portrayed by the 110% throttle for more than 3 minutes.

- 3) Thanks for confirming the Fw 190A4's sustained
- turnrate is correct

It may be correct, if the information displayed in the object viewer is the sustain turn rate.

Then why the Yak1b looses energy so steeply when I try to get it at less than 20s/turn ? Its correct sustain turn-rate should be 19s/turn.

I can turn forever at 22s with the FW190A4 (given number), while the Yak1b can only do so at 20s, instead of 19s.

- 4) I don't know of anyone dumb enough to actually
- use auto radiator and auto prop pitch. They greatly
- reduce both instantanous and sustained performance
- even if it does elemenate overheating at emergancy
- power.

I think pilots of the Luftwaffe used these settings. Yet again, none of them was a player in a "dogfight" server...

- 5) Most planes should be able to black the pilot out
- at high speeds except the La's. If you don't believe
- that, there are many gun camera films of Fw 190's
- soundly out turning La-5's at high speed.

I have no opinion on this topic. Point me to the films, and I shall make my opinion.

- 6) Have you ever considered that the axis planes
- wern't slow, underpowered, heavy, overheated and
- fragile coffins?

As far as I know, when I compare Yak1b and FW190A4, the only plane that I see overheating in FB is the Russian one. I have no overheating with the FW190A4... I even managed to fly a full load of fuel without any such message at 110%.

With the FW190A5, I have no overheating with 110% and boost, unless I fly real slow and/or real low.

The FW190A4 seems faster, especially in the dive (that's correct).

And yes the FW190A4 is heavier, worse in wingloading, and hp/kg than the Yak.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:03 PM
NN_Tym wrote:
- My dear Maraudeur,
-
- Can you make an offline track that will demonstrate
- that any plane flown by AI have the hit-induced drag
- you expect to see when it's a Yak in your gunsight ?

When you're shoot at in FWs, Bfs, and Las ( haven't tried Laggs ans Migs since V 1.1 so I wont speak for V1.0) theyr max speed is badly reduced.

What I said is : Yaks are not affected this way.

Why do you need a track ?
15 minutes per planes are enough to observe the phenomenon.

How did you say ??? " Anybody flyinf FB knows... "
It applies to you also.

Or maybe you're not trully interested by couparing experiences.

What you want is : arguing, harass people and then divert on another subject to hide what's unpleasing you.

As you do below :


- I tried several fights with AI FW19A4, and I got the
- same results as your : no percieved influence of
- hits on a wing, until the wing breaks. This is what
- I always saw in fights against the AI...

You're going out of the subject. Who talked about AI manned planes again ? You.

You do not have to fight against AI FW.
You have to pilot them.

And then, to fly others planes.


If YOU fight IN a FW, as it is your example's plane, you will discover that there is a drag modifying the max speed.


As you said yourself, you couldn't experiment it in your track's fly in the yak.
BUT :
Have you ever experienced it ( or not it's equal ) in another fly ?

If the subject had any interest - I thougt you were interested by FMs and DMs .... - why did you discussed the subject the way you did ?

You wouldn't have just said " in my test fly refering to the track I haven't noticed...because the plane was too damaged etc etc .... " No no....
You would have said " Yes/No I have/haven't already experienced this ". Point.
Did you ?
Because you DON'T CARE Yak's Vmax is not affected by drags while hit. As an example among others.


The subject - and others ... - have been adressed in another forum, you didn't turned in and weren't calling me " dear Maraudeur ", by far... /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

You are biased and you're using all the possible rhetoric methods that nobody's open minded is fool of, to hide what's unpleasing you.
Your sport is arguing. No more.

You even didn't said a word about the fact that the A4 and 5 are not the only FW's affected by an overheating problem because you're just concerned by the planes you fly against in your actual campaign and are by now hard to beat. That's all.

You do not care for the game's overall feature's homogeneity, playability, but your score.

I give it a rest because there's no possible clear and honnest dialog. As usual.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:05 PM
My fellow Maraudeur was kind enough to answer this vile message :

-- My engine received hits from different angles, and
-- not from the ones you mentionned as the only
-- eligible ones.

With this :

- Precisely. Did it show some malfunctions ?
- No.

My humble answer is :

Just look at the track... The engine displayed a nice looking trail of black smoke. Then, all of sudden, the smoke turned into a beautiful fire (just for the adorment of the plane I guess) and exploded. Nice graphical effects, that cannot be trusted as sign of engine malfunction.

You are right, it did not show any sign of malfunction...


Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:32 PM
Is it a joke ?

Everybody can download your track.

Firstly, as I already said, quote exactly what I wrote.

I said that even if the engine didn't shown any malfunction, it was not necessarily abnormal as we cannot know what sort of projectiles, how many and how they hit the engine and radiator.


About your guess :

We can see a fuel leak. As I said, it's your point. That's all. No smoke due to engine malfunction.

The only dark grey smoke puffs we can see are those produced by the graphical game engine when parts blown off from the plane.

This is what happens at the final stage of your dive, under the stress caused by the reach of the structural Vmax just before you hit the ground.

This is why and how the smoke puffes comes.

Not black, not a trail, not from the engine.

All people over here can watch the track using the 4X reduced speed and see what's happening in your final dive.


Theyre's nothing to say about you Tym, it's evidence what you are.

People's having watched the track will know.


Here's the link to your own track.

http://gc3.normandie.niemen.free.fr/fichiers/il2/yak1b_dm_test.zip



NN_Tym wrote:
- My fellow Maraudeur was kind enough to answer this
- vile message :
-
--- My engine received hits from different angles, and
--- not from the ones you mentionned as the only
--- eligible ones.
-
- With this :
-
-- Precisely. Did it show some malfunctions ?
-- No.
-
- My humble answer is :
-
- Just look at the track... The engine displayed a
- nice looking trail of black smoke. Then, all of
- sudden, the smoke turned into a beautiful fire (just
- for the adorment of the plane I guess) and exploded.
- Nice graphical effects, that cannot be trusted as
- sign of engine malfunction.
-
- You are right, it did not show any sign of
- malfunction...
-
-
-
- Tym





Message Edited on 08/26/0306:37AM by Maraudeur

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:57 PM
You are continueing to base all your complaints with the use of auto everything. In real life those features worked bug free, but in this sim those features may have some bugs. Also, you are repeating some of the things I say but don't seem to realize it. I said the Fw 190's didn't overheat unless you used 110% power in real life, in FB they overheat at 110% power just like they should. They do not overheat under normal operation though (less than 100% power). This is historically correct. The climbrate of the Fw 190's is about a minute too high as is most other planes. You claim the yak 1B's sustained turn rate is too low by 1 second. I am willing to believe that, but you should keep in mind that the Fw 190A4's old sustained turn rate in FB 1.0 was about 30 seconds. So in my oppinion a 1 second error isn't all that bad. If you want some guncamera films of the Fw 190's against La's, I do have 1 on my hardrive right now and there are some others floating around this forum. I was going to put it on my host so you could download it, but it is 22mb and my host only allows me to upload 15mb at a time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif . I will try to edit it to get the size down but I don't know if that will work. I got it from this forum, so if you can get the search function to work then you can probebly find it. It has alot of things on it. Including Bf 110's killing DB-3's, various Fw 190A's killing assorted bombers, and also an Fw 190A8 killing a "LaGG-5". The plane is clearly a late model La, probebly an La-5FN or La-7.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 10:56 PM
Maraudeur, there are several flights in the track. The whole session was recorded.

In order to see the other fights, you need to use the F2 key, to quit looking at the wreckage and get to the new yak1b.

There you will see what engine damage can do...

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:05 PM
Salute NN Tyme and Col Kurtz

Please send your test results and records to Ian Boys or Oleg.


Thanks RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:08 PM
Send what to Oleg? He hasn't found any bugs. All he has discovered is that the Fw 190's in FB now match the performance in the object viewer and he doesn't like it.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I/JG1 Oesau (http://jg1-oesau.org) is recruiting. Join us!

Stab.I/JG1Death at HL, Maj_Death at Ubi.com

At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:24 PM
Hi Maj_Death,

On the automatic systems topic... I use them because I think they were used in the tests in those days. Butch was kind enough to show me some data sheets of such tests, and all is described, and it is my assumption that the pilot used all the auto systems the plane owned. I may be wrong though...

I guess the whole FM is meant to be used with those systems. Once again, I may be wrong, only Oleg Maddox can tell us. Anyway, if I test something, I put myself in the conditions of the test.

On the overheat topic, I am terribly sorry, but FW190A4 does not overheat at 110% if flown straight and level at 1000m (even if you take care of the radiator bug). Try in the QMB. I could post a track, but this is very simple to replicate in the QMB.

Now saying a FW190A4 could fly a full fuel load at 100% (1.2ata@2300rpm) without overheating is a bold assumption. I find it hard to believe. Very nice engine indeed the BMW 801D-2... I have read that it had a lot of overheat problems though...

For the films, I think I know them, and must have them on my hard drive. If I am not mistaken, there is only one sequence showing an attack from a FW190 on a La5. In fact, there are two sequences that may belong to two different combats. On none do we see the La disabled. I think the films were meant to show what hits looked like, rather than successful fights. On most films, there is little evidence of fatal blows.

On a side note, how can you be sure that this is a late La model ?

Tym

ZG77_Nagual
08-25-2003, 11:37 PM
I love these 190 debates!

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:19 AM
Tym, 2300RPM/1.2ATA is nearly (historic) economical cruise, even for FW190A4 (2150RPM1.1ATA). The 'Kommandergerat' system in the FB FW190's do NOT develope historic engine outputs (whether this is a bug or not I will not argue, I feel it Kommandergerat system should have slightly higer power settings available, but it is not too far off and quite realistic and reasonable IMHO).

To achieve historic engine outputs, you must use 'manual mode': 2550-2650RPM/1.36-1.42ATA, please check overheat time then. In sustained 300kph 'dogfight' scenario, overheat (onscreen message) occurs after 2:30 seconds, from 80deg starting point (normal pilot operation at cruise settings is about 95-100deg, so overheat would occur even faster under 'normal flight' conditions). At higer speeds, 500kph+, overheat took 2:20 seconds on my computer (1000m, max engine output) from 'normal conditions (100deg starting temp).

It all looks quite correct to me. The engine should produce much less heat at lower power settings/higher speeds, and it does. Why is the Kommandergerat only providing 'cruise' power? I don't know, but its working very realistically, and I like it.

Sustained turn looks right for FW190. If its wrong for Yak1b you should send bug to Oleg, I haven't (and probably won't) tested it, as I'm unfamiliar and uncomfortable in Yaks.

P.S. I love FW190 discussions too! They are like two giant snails approaching each other, both coverd in strange writing (think 'roll-rate charts' or 'refraction diagrams') that butt heads but can't get past each other on the trail, even though it is wide enough for both.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:28 AM
Tym, you cannot be serious about this.

I'd never thought you would speak about this one.

First, for the radiators.
At 10'25" the Bf shoot at your radiator with the MGs only.
No result.

Anyway, small caliber bullets, and just a few, somewhere around the radiator location. It is not possible to make a statement on the radiator's DM with that.


But, later, at 16'20", and this is what's you're talking about, it is not an engine failure, it is a fuel fire !!!

Those fuel fires mostly appears when a flak or cannon shell explodes at or around the planes engines or fuel tanks ( example : Bf109 main tank ; explosion happens shortly - very, really - after initial fire ; or around La5/7 engines )


Engine and radiator damages produces along others symptoms readables on the dashboard ( for the working gauges ) and earables sooner or later, two types of smoke at the top and under the engine location. This is not what happened.

FB DM seems to be very complex. It is abolutely necessary to use the hit arrows and repeat various impacts on different places, from different angles and with different threats to make a statement about what may happen.

The fire you suffered is typically what happens when a shell explodes at the side of the engine.

You can reproduce it with cannons, and observe it while under flak fire.
You can observe this again, with the hit arrows, when a shell explodes the fragments hitting your plane are modelled.

Acting like that will learn you a bit how the DM works.


So, I said it is a fuel fire, not an engine dammage.
That fire located in the engine area can be lightened on only by hits around the location of the burning part.

It maybe : One of the Bf's cannon shell going throught the tail and exploding while next the engine.

I bet this happened.
Experience learned that those fires appears with explosions on the engines sides.
Anyway, it is impossible to say if the shell explode at the side, behind or in front of the engine as there is no hit arrows.

This cannot invalid my claims that engine dammages - not fires ! - happens on Yaks when hitted on particular locations.

Another thing to think about, it very well maybe a result of a consequence of the flak shells exploding around you.

Even your partner was surprised to see your plane smoking - he said " unbeliveable " - and was also hit by fragments that dammaged is glass panels - at least, as we cannot see hit arrows -

You were flying throught flak fire, many explosions were close enough to dammage your partner's plane and you've been as close as him to some explosions, particulary the one that happend in your low 4 o'clok at the same second the fire began.

Who can say if that explosion didn't lightened itself the fire, or a fuel leak in the engine compartment that a bullet or exploding shell enlighted ? Or only a result of the Bf's fire ?


Whatever, this track cannot invalid my claim that engine dammages - and not fuel fires - on yaks are restricted to the hit locations I mentionned.
This track even do not allow to judge if any sort of impact didn't took place at the side of the engine compartment just because the Bf was shooting from te low '6.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:26 AM
NN_Tym wrote:
- On the overheat topic, I am terribly sorry, but
- FW190A4 does not overheat at 110% if flown
- straight and level at 1000m (even if you take care
- of the radiator bug). Try in the QMB. I could post a
- track, but this is very simple to replicate in the
- QMB.
-
- Now saying a FW190A4 could fly a full fuel load at
- 100% (1.2ata@2300rpm) without overheating is a bold
- assumption. I find it hard to believe. Very nice
- engine indeed the BMW 801D-2... I have read that it
- had a lot of overheat problems though...

The problem with the automatic settings is they under rev the engine. So at 110% power with auto settings you are really only getting about 90% power with the radiator fully open. This is fine for cruising conditions but in combat, flying like this is pretty much suicide. There is a speed chart for the Fw 190's in the general discusion forum that shows the effects of auto everything. I suggest you go take a look at it, the performance loss from auto is drastic.

The problems with the Fw 190's are not overheat times, it is the automatic controls. When you switch to manuel, which still has constant speed prop, you can develop full military power (100% + boost) and emergancy power (110% + boost). At full military power the Fw 190's will not overheat in game if you are flying fast. However the same is true for all other radial engined fighters in FB. It WILL overheat at emergancy power regardless of speed. I see no problems with the Fw's engine except the screwed up auto settings. But this problem also applies to the Bf 109's.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:44 AM
My beloved Maraudeur,

I made some more tests yesterday. In order to make sure that the test would be sound, I made it with Jabo_Tex: a pilot belonging to a squad flying FW190 exclusively.

First test, I fly a Yak1b, he flies a Bf109F4. He fires on my wing with MGs only. I get loss of lift, fuel leak and aileron disabled. No drag induced though... So lo and behold you are right !!!

Second test, I fly a FW190A4, he flies a Yak1. He fires on my wing with MGs. I get loss of lift and nothing else. He empties the MGs with no more result. Using the cannon, he broke my wounded wing... No drag induced for the FW190A4 either. So there you are wrong, sorry...

I think the damage model takes into account the fact that cables are used in the Yak to control the aileron, while the FW190 use sturdier bars to control them.

Jabo_Tex was surprised by the fact that no drag was noted. We came to the conclusion that the lift loss converts into a speed loss were fighting and maneuvering, simply because you are fighting against the lift loss.

Now if you can produce a track showing the drag induced by hits on a wing, I shall admit I am wrong. So far, such an evidence is still to be produced...

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:56 AM
The A4 as modeled in game is the derated version, it is normal to get only 1.35ata@2450rpm. The BMW 801 as mounted until mid 1942 did not have chromed exhaust pipe and suffered from excessive overheating especialy in the short nosed A3-A4.
When the A5 was introduced with a slighter better airflow and modified 801D-2, the ban on 1.42ata@2700rpm was lifted.
Yet on the A4 the 1.35ata@2450rpm was only authorized for 3 minutes maximum, same goes for the 1.42ata@2700rpm on the A5 and up.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:07 AM
Hi Maj_Death,

There is a problem with your logic. If I use your settings, ei 110% radiator closed, I get overheating message at 2'30"... It seems correct. But, I get from 100 to 5000m in 5'30". By the way, this is the only way I saw to use "manual" settings in the FW190A4.

If I want to get close to the result of the factory test (6'48"), I have to fly 100%, radiator on automatic. Then I get from 100 to 5000m in 6'30".

So either you use automatic conservative settings and get a correct climb rate, without any kind of overheating, or you use "agressive" settings and get overheating and unbelievable good climb rate.

But with automated settings, and 110% you can get very close to the 5'30 result, with a very mild overheating.

So there may be a problem with automated settings, but there is a problem with overheating and/or climb rate.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:20 AM
If you have the radiator set too auto/close it opens as needed & will not overheat since you are COOLING it automaticaly

as for the turn no explanation for that ask Oleg

submit a bug report.....

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:24 AM
There was already a huje post about the FW fm & Posible Radiator bugs

try testing some yaks las & alike none has tested them we already know about the FW



<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:29 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuxsv&tpage=2&direction=0


Read this & test something else Like an la7 or ?

I sent a msg to Oleg over a week ago he sent me mail it said

We will look at it.

Pick some other plane to fix

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:35 AM
- Just take a Yak1b and try to maintain a 9s/180? for
- more than 8 turns with no speed/altitude loss...
- Then the Yak1b and the FW190A4 will have the same
- bug, and I shall be proven wrong.
-
- Tym

I think your forgeting that the fw was made to climb the yak is a turn fighter

FW has a much more horspower I belive as well

Im sure the modeling is not corect for all ac in fb but Oleg is working to dial it in give him a chance & submit bug reports not just arguing with others it does no good

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:54 AM
Hi AFJ_Murdoc,

Why do I test the FW190A4 ? Because, I have read everywhere on boards that it was perfect now, except for too good a roll rate at high speed... So I tested. Obviously there is more...

I did test the Yak1b, as it is a plane of the same era, and it is the plane I am most at ease with. I have yet to find something as odd as what I find with the FW190A4. But I guess someone will come up with oddities such as the ones I dug in the FW190A4 FM.

So the Yak was a "turn" fighter, while the FW190A4 was a "climb" one... Factory test from Focke-Wulf give 6.8 min to 5000m, while tests from field machines give an average 5.4 min to 5000m.

FW190A4 was a heavy and powerful plane, while the Yak1b was a light-weight one. Yet the Yak is better at wing loading and hp/kg than the FW190A4.



Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:04 AM
On the overheat topic, I am terribly sorry, but FW190A4 does not overheat at 110% if flown straight and level at 1000m (even if you take care of the radiator bug). Try in the QMB. I could post a track, but this is very simple to replicate in the QMB.

not sure about a4 but a5 overheats @ low altitude once you cycle the radiator


p.s. in a5 & newer FW I lose about 10kmh if I get only the smallest holes in the wing skin.


<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:30 AM
Hi Murdoc,

I found the same : if you fly low and/or slow, then the overheat will occur. But if you keep at 1000m+, and a little quick (300km/h+), no overheat with FW190A5 throttle 110% and WEP.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:26 PM
Excellent information Butch, and it sounds right in the historical context to me. As for the game, it models this reasonably well IMHO, though the Kommandergerat system ('auto') is under-achieving by about 100-150RPM, while the 'manual' is over-achieving by the same margin (100-150RPM), but All the constant speed props over speed the engine by a very similar amount, no doubt this is the way the game is programmed. Overheat at that 2450RPM/1.38ATA Seems (IMHO) to be modeled about correctly (around 3 minutes, a bit over for actual engine damage). I hope Oleg gets a chance to read this thread, I would guess he will draw a similar conclusion.

As to climb rates, I cannot argue. They sure 'feel' correct as compared to other aircraft in the game right now, but if they are in fact incorrect, of course they need to be changed.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:43 PM
Posted by NN_Tym:

"I found the same : if you fly low and/or slow, then the overheat will occur. But if you keep at 1000m+, and a little quick (300km/h+), no overheat with FW190A5 throttle 110% and WEP."

NN_Tym,

You're either a joker or a liar. I'm not sure which of those two. Although it could also be you're just another whiner, like so many others.

I've just tested the A5 and the La5FN online, since they are technically contemporary aircraft and I don't trust any QMB results anymore. I flew them both at 1000 meters and 3000 meters altitude with 110% throttle and WEP.

Both started to overheat their engines after 3 minutes and both received permanent engine damage a few minutes later. And anybody here can duplicate those results with ease for themselves, if they wish to.

Oh, by the way... you cannot fly an A5 at around 300 Kph with 110% and WEP. It will always fly much faster than that at those settings and so, get a lot more cooling as well. Maybe you mixed up the radial engine of the 190 with the inline Yak engine, the plane that you seem to be so fond of?

Anyway, if you're going to post those "bugs" to Oleg, don't forget to mention that the overheating of the A5 *and* the La5FN are both wrong in FB your opinion, will you? And, while you're at it: don't forget to mention this one as well:

Posted by AFJ_Murdoc:

"p.s. in a5 & newer FW I lose about 10kmh if I get only the smallest holes in the wing skin."

Thanks.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:43 PM
Airborn_ wrote:
- Posted by NN_Tym:
-
- "I found the same : if you fly low and/or slow, then
- the overheat will occur. But if you keep at 1000m+,
- and a little quick (300km/h+), no overheat with
- FW190A5 throttle 110% and WEP."
-
- NN_Tym,
-
- You're either a joker or a liar. I'm not sure which
- of those two. Although it could also be you're just
- another whiner, like so many others.
-
- I've just tested the A5 and the La5FN online, since
- they are technically contemporary aircraft and I
- don't trust any QMB results anymore. I flew them
- both at 1000 meters and 3000 meters altitude with
- 110% throttle and WEP.
-
- Both started to overheat their engines after 3
- minutes and both received permanent engine damage a
- few minutes later. And anybody here can duplicate
- those results with ease for themselves, if they wish
- to.

What were your radiator and prop pitch settings?

-
- Oh, by the way... you cannot fly an A5 at around 300
- Kph with 110% and WEP. It will always fly much
- faster than that at those settings and so, get a lot
- more cooling as well. Maybe you mixed up the radial
- engine of the 190 with the inline Yak engine, the
- plane that you seem to be so fond of?

You can in a climb or a turn, anyways note that he said above 300kph.

-
-
- Anyway, if you're going to post those "bugs" to
- Oleg, don't forget to mention that the overheating
- of the A5 *and* the La5FN are both wrong in FB your
- opinion, will you? And, while you're at it: don't
- forget to mention this one as well:
-
- Posted by AFJ_Murdoc:
-
- "p.s. in a5 & newer FW I lose about 10kmh if I get
- only the smallest holes in the wing skin."
-
- Thanks.
-

Concerning loss of speed due to battle damage on the Fw 190, I suspect that people are taking the visual damage model much to literally. I think the damage textures are more an indication of degrees of damage rather than actually structural changes. For example, a 20mm round in a Yak wing might either cause a huge hole texture to appear or blow the wing off, while the same 20mm round in a Fw 190 wing might display only as a small bullet hole texture. Because the Fw-190 can withstand damage more readily than the Yak, less "severe" textures are used to display the same damage (i.e. a 20mm round passing through the wing).

There may very well be an issue here, but if so, conclusions can not be reached using the visual damage modelling system alone. It is too abstract.


--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:27 PM
A.K.Davis,

Why don't you ask NN_Tym for those? He didn't mention them either in his post in which he all of a sudden started making false accusations about the A5 as well: (bottom of post)

Posted by NN_Tym:

"Maj_Death wrote:
- 1) The Fw 190 climbrates are no more exagerated than
- those of the La's and Yak's.

False...

The Yak1b climbs to 5000m in 5'45" for me, at 100% throttle. If I use 110% the engine is dead, but I can reach 5000m in 5'05"... If you can beat this, you are welcome to display the track.
The real number is 5.4 min (5'24").

The FW190A4 in the game has the correct climb rate only if :
1. You use only 100%
2. You make sure you cycle through radiator settings to get the auto/closed setting.
If you use the bug and 110%, you can get to 5000m in 5'40"...
The real number is 6.8 min (6'48")

- 2) The Fw 190A's were known for being damn near
- immune to overheat except at emergancy power (110% +
- boost)

False.

The pilots of the FW190A4 modeled in the game were forbidden to use the settings portrayed by the 110% throttle for more than 3 minutes.

- 3) Thanks for confirming the Fw 190A4's sustained
- turnrate is correct

It may be correct, if the information displayed in the object viewer is the sustain turn rate.

Then why the Yak1b looses energy so steeply when I try to get it at less than 20s/turn ? Its correct sustain turn-rate should be 19s/turn.

I can turn forever at 22s with the FW190A4 (given number), while the Yak1b can only do so at 20s, instead of 19s.

- 4) I don't know of anyone dumb enough to actually
- use auto radiator and auto prop pitch. They greatly
- reduce both instantanous and sustained performance
- even if it does elemenate overheating at emergancy
- power.

I think pilots of the Luftwaffe used these settings. Yet again, none of them was a player in a "dogfight" server...

- 5) Most planes should be able to black the pilot out
- at high speeds except the La's. If you don't believe
- that, there are many gun camera films of Fw 190's
- soundly out turning La-5's at high speed.

I have no opinion on this topic. Point me to the films, and I shall make my opinion.

- 6) Have you ever considered that the axis planes
- wern't slow, underpowered, heavy, overheated and
- fragile coffins?

As far as I know, when I compare Yak1b and FW190A4, the only plane that I see overheating in FB is the Russian one. I have no overheating with the FW190A4... I even managed to fly a full load of fuel without any such message at 110%.

With the FW190A5, I have no overheating with 110% and boost, unless I fly real slow and/or real low.

The FW190A4 seems faster, especially in the dive (that's correct).

And yes the FW190A4 is heavier, worse in wingloading, and hp/kg than the Yak.

Tym"

And whammo, there fly the accusations in the direction of the A5 as well all of a sudden. Talking about making it *real easy* on yourself.

My prop pitch setting was on Auto, so it wasn't 100% manual, which would have made the engine overheat even faster I'm sure. The radiator was closed (manually) and if the "Radiator bug" means the A4 can fly with open Radiator (in Auto/Closed setting) without the accompanying drag, then my test was clearly not influenced by this. Needless to say, I used the same settings for both aircraft.

And if you want these testresults done with the Auto/Closed radiator setings on both aircraft, be my guest and make the effort. I made mine and debunked a lie, in this case about the A5.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:12 PM
Airborn_ wrote:
- NN_Tym,
-
- You're either a joker or a liar. I'm not sure which
- of those two. Although it could also be you're just
- another whiner, like so many others.

I already stated that my flight tests used the following settings :

QMB
Smolensk map (summer)
Initial altitude 1000 m
Fule load 100%
Armament default

I used the automated radiator.

In order to avoid the QMB, I set up a fake online server... Just me and a FW190A5.

I just made a NTRK if you wish of a 37+ minutes long flight with a FW190A5, at 110% throttle and WEP all along. I flew for 19'30 or so without touching the radiator settings, then I cycled to auto.

I never had any overheat.

Should I post the track ?

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:22 PM
Mister Airborn,

I cannot control the pitch on my FB1.1b version for the FW190A4/A5. Does it mean my installation is faulty ? I tried both the key or a DX axis to control it.

The only setting I can manually control is the radiator.

I also have a graphical bug : the arrow for the ATA jumps from one position to another sometimes. Sometimes it sticks to 1.2, sometimes to 1.4, sometimes it jumps quickly to another value.

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:20 PM
NN_Tym,

Now that we know that you do not know how to control the prop pitch of the A5 and you used the Auto/Closed radiator setting during your test it all becomes clear to me.

First: I will stick to my opinion about your remark that it is not possible to overheat the A5 at 110% throttle and WEP. This opinion is false.

1) You will overheat your A5 on 110% throttle and WEP if you use the (manually) Closed radiator setting and Auto prop-pitch. (which means not 100% prop-pitch all the time)

2) You will overheat the A5 on 110% throttle and WEP on the Auto/Closed radiator setting and on 100% prop pitch. I repeat: you will overheat, I just tried it myself online.

3) The only way in which you will not overheat in the A5 apparently is when you use the Auto/Closed radiator setting and Auto prop-pitch. But this is normal, since you are using the >automated< radiator setting, which will open the radiator when necessary, so the engine cools! And: you will never have the full power of the engine at your disposal this way. It's so simple, isn't it?

What did you expect NN_Tym, that the A5's radial engine would overheat even when it isn't delivering it's full power? You wanted to have it both ways, perhaps?

Well, I'm sorry, but you cannot have that I'm afraid.

Besides, if you had read the posts by Maj_Death and ZG77_Lignite, you would already have known this. Don't you read other ppl's posts? No, the A5 does not deliver full power with the radiator on Auto/Closed and with Auto prop-pitch, so it doesn't overheat. If you think that is a bug, then by all means, send it to Oleg.

But you would be showing an unbiased opinion if you would also ask Oleg to let the A5 deliver it's full power on those fully automated radiator and prop-pitch settings. Otherwise ppl might think you want it both ways, no? Give us the full power on those settings and then let the engine overheat. How's that for a proposal?

That's only fair, I would think.

To me these tests only show how well the 190 is modelled right now in FB. The only gripe you could have is that this machine isn't delivering it's full power on fully automatic settings and with CEM on. But that's about it. To me, that's really no biggie and no cause for great alarm at all.

-edited because of typos-

PS

Oh, I forgot: NN_Tym, if you want to set the prop-pitch manually, hit Shift-0 and then use Shift-1/2/3/4 for different pitch settings. If you want 100% pitch, you should assign a key for this yourself in the Controls. I have Shift-5 assigned for this.


Message Edited on 08/26/0310:51PM by Airborn_

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:39 PM
"Gives us the full power on those settings and then let the engine overheat."


What a good idea, you've my vote S!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:43 PM
There are some issues in general that affect the 190s.

1. turn rate is OK, if the Yak-1B can't make it's one, this plane is off.

2. climb is basically OK for the first 3000-4000m. There seems to be a bug with the superchargers. At the altitude they switch up one gear, there's a boost in climb rate, which is unrealistic. That makes those good times up to 5000 and 7000. Other than that, the climb times given in the database for german planes are Steigleistung which means 100%, radiators opened. With that in mind, the 190s are just OK, at least up to 3100-3400m. That extra boost above there spoils the climbs. But as mentioned, many soviet planes climb way too good, too. Just try a La-7 and climb off the deck with full boost at steady 280 IAS. You will be impressed. 30+m/s she does. Approx. 22m/s was real for the first 2000m.

3. overheating. This one is bugged in general. Try closing the coolers, then it overheats quickly. By default, it's on auto. the bug here is, that it's max cooling + min drag. But drag should be also max when it's opened (via auto + engine too hot). Many players don't touch it, the same in 109s. But for hell's sake: the 109s overheat way too much with the "correct" rads in FB, 190s are OK. So the coolers are bugged. BTW the A-4 had no cowl flap control. A-5 was the first one which had.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:46 PM
Airborn_ wrote:
- NN_Tym,
-
- Now that we know that you do not know how to control
- the prop pitch of the A5 and you used the
- Auto/Closed radiator setting during your test it all
- becomes clear to me.
-
- First: I will stick to my opinion about your remark
- that it is not possible to overheat the A5 at 110%
- throttle and WEP. This opinion is false.
-
- 1) You will overheat your A5 on 110% throttle and
- WEP if you use the (manually) Closed radiator
- setting and Auto prop-pitch. (which means not 100%
- prop-pitch all the time)
-
- 2) You will overheat the A5 on 110% throttle and WEP
- on the Auto/Closed radiator setting and on 100% prop
- pitch. I repeat: you will overheat, I just tried it
- myself online.
-
- 3) The only way in which you will not overheat in
- the A5 apparently is when you use the Auto/Closed
- radiator setting and Auto prop-pitch. But this is
- normal, since you are using the >automated< radiator
- setting, which will open the radiator when
- necessary, so the engine cools! And: you will never
- have the full power of the engine at your disposal
- this way. It's so simple, isn't it?

The automatic radiator setting is bugged, and it is bugged differently depending on whether it's the default or player-cycled position. It does not function normally under any conditions (although it is visually modelled correctly on the exterior). In the default position, it gives no drag and maximum cooling. In the player-selected auto/closed position, it gives you the same drag and cooling as the fully open position, despite engine temp (thus your earlier conclusions about climb rate are faulty). If you are testing anything other than whether or not the auto positions are in fact bugged, DO NOT use either the default or selected auto/closed setting.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:52 PM
"thus your earlier conclusions about climb rate are faulty"

A.K.Davis,

Are you gonna start as well?

Show me a post in which I said anything about climb rate. I didn't do any such thing.

Have a nice day/evening.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:59 AM
Airborn_ wrote:
- "thus your earlier conclusions about climb rate are
- faulty"
-
- A.K.Davis,
-
- Are you gonna start as well?
-
- Show me a post in which I said anything about climb
- rate. I didn't do any such thing.
-
- Have a nice day/evening.
-
-
-
-
-


Was this not you? If not, I apologize, but it did not appear that you were quoting someone else:

Airborn_ wrote:
-False...

-The Yak1b climbs to 5000m in 5'45" for me, at 100%
-throttle. If I use 110% the engine is dead, but I can
-reach 5000m in 5'05"... If you can beat this, you are
-welcome to display the track.
-The real number is 5.4 min (5'24").

-The FW190A4 in the game has the correct climb rate only
-if :
-1. You use only 100%
-2. You make sure you cycle through radiator settings to
-get the auto/closed setting.
-If you use the bug and 110%, you can get to 5000m in
-5'40"...
-The real number is 6.8 min (6'48")"


--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:09 AM
He was quoting NN_Tym.

I am done arguing this with NN_Tym and the rest of you VVS whiners cause you don't bother to even read our posts.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I/JG1 Oesau (http://jg1-oesau.org) is recruiting. Join us!

Stab.I/JG1Death at HL, Maj_Death at Ubi.com

At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

Message Edited on 08/26/0310:10PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:38 AM
heh, I fly LW most the time bud. People need to keep their quoting more organized if they want to understood properly.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:23 PM
lol

A.K.Davis,

I never quoted this nor said this:

"-The Yak1b climbs to 5000m in 5'45" for me, at 100%
-throttle. If I use 110% the engine is dead, but I can
-reach 5000m in 5'05"... If you can beat this, you are
-welcome to display the track.
-The real number is 5.4 min (5'24").

-The FW190A4 in the game has the correct climb rate only
-if :
-1. You use only 100%
-2. You make sure you cycle through radiator settings to
-get the auto/closed setting.
-If you use the bug and 110%, you can get to 5000m in
-5'40"...
-The real number is 6.8 min (6'48")"

Mr. NN_Tym said that.

Now why are you insisting I did?

I hope if you are flying for our side, you "notice" things in a more accurate way, or else "we" might get into trouble eventually. Thanks for pointing out the exact appearance of the "Radiator bug" to me btw. I didn't know it was like that exactly and I can only hope Oleg and his men are able to iron this one out. I knew there was a radiator bug at the Auto/Closed setting btw, that's why I closed my radiator during the first test.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:44 PM
So to have a *realistic* FW190A4 or A5, you need to close the radiator... And you dare say there is nothing buggy in the FW190A4/5 ?

I give up... I shall wait for the real patch to make more tests...

Tym

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 01:42 AM
why should a4 overheat with 540km/h tas that are 525km/h ias sealevel,

that is the speed that she reach with 100% 1580ps

with wep 1750ps reach she over 570km/h sealevel,

a4 is much undermodel speed sealevel

eric brown has with a8 wep 1750ps reach 571km/h

too a5 is to slow with wep,she muss too reach over 570km/h sealevel with wep 1750ps

with erh¶hten ladedruck 2050ps is she faster as 570km/h near 595km/h sealevel

because no bombrack how a8

a5 use same power as a8 2050ps,but interesting is slower although no bombrack


Message Edited on 08/29/0304:00AM by Skalgrim