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View Full Version : A-10 Thunderbolt's predecessor



Vipez-
12-11-2004, 07:33 AM
http://www.luft46.com/junkers/jugap.html


nt.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Philipscdrw
12-11-2004, 08:10 AM
It looks a bit similar - but there isn't any laser-accurate 30mil 1200RPM cannon.

Skarphol
12-11-2004, 08:36 AM
I think it looks even more like the Thunderbolts competitor, the Northrop A-9, except for the twin tail. Look here: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-9.htm

And and this picture: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a9a-1_300-2.jpg


Skarphol

BlitzPig_DDT
12-11-2004, 09:39 AM
Looks more like the Su25 to me than the A-10.

VW-IceFire
12-11-2004, 12:03 PM
Yeah the A-9 looks alot like the Su-25 which is a modern day IL-2 when you get right down to it.

Those Russians know how to make a ground pounder.

BuzzU
12-11-2004, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Yeah the A-9 looks alot like the Su-25 which is a modern day IL-2 when you get right down to it.

Those Russians know how to make a ground pounder. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did with the Su-25T, but the Su-25 is pretty crude compared to the A-10.

VW-IceFire
12-11-2004, 01:00 PM
Yeah, the A-10 was way more advanced than the basic Su-25. Still...the Su-25 is essentially an armored tub, with jet engines, and wings large enough to put mega boatloads of firepower on.

Its not sophisticated like the A-10 but its alot faster.

Korolov
12-11-2004, 01:26 PM
Honestly... I see more resembalance to the Pe-2 rather than the A-10.

GAU-8
12-12-2004, 12:08 AM
whats with the window treatment, at the fue****e behind the engine...

well looks like a window (talkin bout the A-9 here, not the luft plane)

Platypus_1.JaVA
12-12-2004, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GAU-8:
whats with the window treatment, at the fue****e behind the engine...

well looks like a window (talkin bout the A-9 here, not the luft plane) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a common antenna, for the VHF navigation IIRC

Platypus_1.JaVA
12-12-2004, 09:34 AM
That's yet another example of superior German engineering. The P-51 Mustang was German. It was the best all round fighter of the war and the Americans told the world it was theirs.

Now the same thing with the A-9/A-10 It is only that the A-9 lost the competition but, the A-10 has the same basic principle then the German aircraft.

BuzzU
12-12-2004, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
That's yet another example of superior German engineering. The P-51 Mustang was German. It was the best all round fighter of the war and the Americans told the world it was theirs.

Now the same thing with the A-9/A-10 It is only that the A-9 lost the competition but, the A-10 has the same basic principle then the German aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Sore loser.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-12-2004, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
That's yet another example of superior German engineering. The P-51 Mustang was German. It was the best all round fighter of the war and the Americans told the world it was theirs.

Now the same thing with the A-9/A-10 It is only that the A-9 lost the competition but, the A-10 has the same basic principle then the German aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why was the P51 german ?
have i missed something ?

berg417448
12-12-2004, 05:36 PM
from WarbirdTech Series volume 5 page 26-28

"...The problem in both cases was laid to a resmblance between the Mustang and Germany's Messerschmidt Me-109, especially when seen in silhouette or illuminated in a way that made markings difficult to register.

From this casual similarity in apperance between the two antagonists, according to a wartime dispatch, rumors started in England and flowed back to the United Sates that the Mustang was designed by a pair of German refugees who formerly were designers for Willy Messerschmitt. North American Aviation Company officials took steps to deny this legend of imitation in the creation of the Mustang. The dispatch took pains to explain "ex-Germans" on the NAA's design team, saying that North American Aviation said there were never any ex-Messerschmidt designers working on the Mustang design. Some ex-Germans working for North American all hailed from the pre-Messerschmidt era of aviation, the release noted. The dispatch said some engineers who came to the United States with Anthony Fokker after World War One remained in the Fokker organization as it merged into General Aviation and later into NAA. Ed Schmued, chief of North American designers, was described as an ex-Austrian who served as an officer in the Austrian Air Force in World War One. An American citizen, Schmued, along with project engineer Ken Bowen, who became assistant factory manager of North American's Dallas, Texas plant, were pivotal in the design of the Mustang. Bowen's back ground was listed as a former British citizen who served in the RAF."

BuzzU
12-12-2004, 08:04 PM
That hardly makes it German. The USA is made up of people from other countries.

Key word is ex-Germans.

Aaron_GT
12-13-2004, 01:43 AM
I think it is a case of converent evolution. The LW plane and the A9 and A10 were designed to fulfill the same type of role which places similae requirements on the design so it's not that unreasonable to end up with similar designs within the constraints of conventional aircraft.

With regard to other planes looking similar, often there were fashions in design at various points in history and planes from that era just tend to look moderately similar, some more similar than others. Then there all those Blohm and Voss asymmetric designs... I am not sure what they were smoking at B&V but it seems to have been pretty powerful stuff!

123-Wulf-JG123
12-13-2004, 02:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
That hardly makes it German. The USA is made up of people from other countries.

Key word is ex-Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


1. No such thing as an ex-German, you are either German are you aren't, just like you are either American or you aren't.


2. Wartime propaganda by the US Government, is just that, propaganda. The truth of the matter AFIK, is that two ex-Messerschmit designers were involved in the design phase of the aircraft that eventually became the Mustang. You have to remember the aero engineering community was relatively small, there was lots of cross-pollination and movement all within a relatively small (world-wide) industry. Many engineers were simply not interested in politics, to them the realisation of their own designs was what mattered.

Ankanor
12-13-2004, 04:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
I think it is a case of converent evolution. The LW plane and the A9 and A10 were designed to fulfill the same type of role which places similae requirements on the design so it's not that unreasonable to end up with similar designs within the constraints of conventional aircraft.

With regard to other planes looking similar, often there were fashions in design at various points in history and planes from that era just tend to look moderately similar, some more similar than others. Then there all those Blohm and Voss asymmetric designs... I am not sure what they were smoking at B&V but it seems to have been pretty powerful stuff! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The B&V guys relied on the psychological factor http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Scare the living sh1t out of both own and enemy fliers. But it should be noted that zeven though their birds looked like mutants, they did perform very good.

Ankanor
12-13-2004, 04:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Yeah, the A-10 was way more advanced than the basic Su-25. Still...the Su-25 is essentially an armored tub, with jet engines, and wings large enough to put mega boatloads of firepower on.

Its not sophisticated like the A-10 but its alot faster. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I bet it's much more nimble. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif there was(maybe still is) actually a demonstration group in Russia that flew stripped off Su-25s(no armor) and the word is they put the MiG-29 demo group in shade.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-13-2004, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Then there all those Blohm and Voss asymmetric designs... I am not sure what they were smoking at B&V but it seems to have been pretty powerful stuff! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well the request was a fast-recon-plane, with gunner.
in order to increase sight and angels for the gunner it was choosed to place the cockpit out of the "centerline" the gunner had no tail-segment blocking his view, the pilot had a nice forward view (no engine in Front of him)
and the overall handling was verry good actually, it failed because it looked to "strange".
RLM said it was denied because of it's speed (to slow, but faster than that FW189 anyway...)
however the plane was redisigned and got a BMW.801D (as the FW190A4>A8) because of the increased wight the plane got worse in (low-speed) Handling (overall size remained nearly the same) but speed increased...

Aaron_GT
12-13-2004, 05:45 AM
I meant more that there are a whole string of strange asymmetric B&V designs even for tasks that would not see to require an asymmetric form factor. Bomber? Make is asymmetric? Ground attack plane? Make it asymmetric. Most of these didn't get built, admittedly, but sometimes it seems that they had some devotion to the asymmetric form. At least the high altitude prop fighter (prototype built, never went into production due to the war ending) was symmetrical. (Can't remember the number of it at the moment - had big radiators in the wings).

WOLFMondo
12-13-2004, 06:49 AM
Im not sure which is uglier, A9, A10 or Su25.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
That hardly makes it German. The USA is made up of people from other countries.

Key word is ex-Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The engine though, is most definatly Britishhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

mynameisroland
12-13-2004, 10:48 AM
The A10 was designed with the consultation of Rudel - The German Stuka pilot.

So in some respect it has important German design input. Imagine if the A10 is what a tank busting and ground attack expert would have liked to have flown what a fighter plane would look like if inspired by Marseille or Hartmann

Copperhead310th
12-13-2004, 11:48 AM
The very idea that the NAA p-51 Mustang is a German design is totaly absurd.

123-Wulf-JG123

"1. No such thing as an ex-German, you are either German are you aren't, just like you are either American or you aren't."


For the record. you are either American or your not. Once you take the oath of citizenship you are no long German, Dutch, Brittish, Chinese or what have you....but you ARE an Americain same as everyone that was born here.'
Just thought i'd clear that up for ya. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif