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View Full Version : Poll: Should the P-39 be added in the free addon?



XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:41 PM
FB currently has no P-39 in it. There is a plane that somewhat resembles a P-39 but it has a stall speed of less than 90km/h and is immune to gravity. I miss the P-39 and wish Oleg's crew would put it back in. Anyone else want it too?

Edit: I'm not joking, I would really like to see FB have some P-39's in it. Right now there are none.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

Message Edited on 09/16/0312:41PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:41 PM
FB currently has no P-39 in it. There is a plane that somewhat resembles a P-39 but it has a stall speed of less than 90km/h and is immune to gravity. I miss the P-39 and wish Oleg's crew would put it back in. Anyone else want it too?

Edit: I'm not joking, I would really like to see FB have some P-39's in it. Right now there are none.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

Message Edited on 09/16/0312:41PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:42 PM
Yes, it will be a nice addition.


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ZG77_Nagual
09-16-2003, 06:43 PM
When we get the P63 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Our current P39 is merely evolving.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:43 PM
get a live/i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif
NAH I LIKE IT More than it was in IL2(was 2 stally )

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<font color="red">I</font> <font color="blue">c</font><font color="green">a</font><font color="orange">n</font>
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Message Edited on 09/16/0305:44PM by VMF513_Wolf

ZG77_Nagual
09-16-2003, 06:46 PM
I like it too - my fav vvs plane. On the other side I like the 190s - so I get uber-whined alot - for this reason I've added the theme from 'Bambi' to my FB sounds so I can here violins whenever I get a kill.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:51 PM
So 2 yes's and 3 no's. Guess the P-39's arn't too popular /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:55 PM
Uhm - couldn´t we just import the one from IL2 original & paint it in 1024x1024? Agree with you on this one, Death.

S!

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:55 PM
Maj_Death wrote:
- So 2 yes's and 3 no's. Guess the P-39's arn't too
- popular

Not many like it when we have it.
Not many want it back.


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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:58 PM
Yes I like the old P-39, I flew it once in a blue moon because it was a real challenge, hard to hit things with the rate of fire of the 37mm, and was prone to stalls.

http://www.talonsoft.com/images/hiddenanddangerous/hiddenanddangerous-eyes.jpg (http://www.f19vs.tk)

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:02 PM
Got my vote /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:09 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I like it too - my fav vvs plane. On the other side
- I like the 190s - so I get uber-whined alot - for
- this reason I've added the theme from 'Bambi' to my
- FB sounds so I can here violins whenever I get a
- kill.
-
<img
- src="http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47jane
- s.jpg">
-



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Love your sense of humor!

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:13 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
Our current P39 is merely
- evolving.
-

That was funny Nagual! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif In another couple of months it might fully evolve into your P-63.

On the serious side, many of us have mentioned a problem with the Cobra's climb and stall. Unfortunately, we are always dismissed as whiners by the DF gamers who want to keep their uberplane.







Message Edited on 09/16/0310:17AM by faustnik

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:14 PM
Gee another complaint about the P39 flight model, from a guy in a Luftwaffle squad with I am sure hundreds of hours in the P-39 (real or virtual) & the exsperience to quickly correct the flight model without adversely effecting any other plane. Yes please correct it then ask Oleg to add your changes. or you could just go fly against the P39 in CFS 2 ?

Or fly a 190 ?

Yes you have a right to complain, but I'd rather hear something more interesting. It looks like you just got beat by someone in a P39 & came here to throw a fit. Hope that's not the case , but that's how it looks.

http://idealab.snu.ac.kr/~hobbist/La-5FN/small/La-5FN-06.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:16 PM
The P-39 in war was never popular

The american pilots didnt want to fly it it was so rubbish (this is true) so they tried to give it to the british and they didnt want it.

Only people who wanted it was the russians because they had lack of planes

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:27 PM
Do I detect some luftwhining here?

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:32 PM
That's strange. There is a plane in my a/c pull down menu that has three different P-39 models. What am I missing here? I have FB. Please explain someone. ~S~

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:37 PM
Sarcasm noob./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:41 PM
Saburo_0 wrote:
- Gee another complaint about the P39 flight model,
- from a guy in a Luftwaffle squad with I am sure
- hundreds of hours in the P-39 (real or virtual) &
- the exsperience to quickly correct the flight model
- without adversely effecting any other plane. Yes
- please correct it then ask Oleg to add your changes.
- or you could just go fly against the P39 in CFS 2 ?
-
- Or fly a 190 ?
-
- Yes you have a right to complain, but I'd rather
- hear something more interesting. It looks like you
- just got beat by someone in a P39 & came here to
- throw a fit. Hope that's not the case , but that's
- how it looks.

Hate to break the news to you but in IL2 I spent almost as much time in P-39's as I did in axis planes. This isn't luftwhining. There is absolutly no data that supports the P-39's flight model right now. And on top of that, I did like the old P-39's (to fly, not just shoot) but I can't stand them now. There is NOT a single P-39 in FB now. The P-39 was removed in FB 1.0 and it appears we arn't going to get it back unless we really push for it. The current "P-39" flight models are closer to a Ka-50's than that of a real P-39.

You can say that I have never flown a P-39 and therefore can't know what it could do, but I can use that same arguement on you and Oleg. However, I do know people who have flown P-39's. I have even seen a P-63 fly and chatted with one of its pilots. What the so called "P-39" in FB is currently capable of doing is absurd. No one who has flown a real P-39 or P-63 would claim its correct.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:44 PM
I don`t have much problems with Q models... but to have N1 would be a great addition /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:46 PM
I don't care about the P-39. I'd like to get the P-47D-27. As well as get the 10 and 22 finished up. We have a good beta of them so far, but, that's about it.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:46 PM
MD,

I've seen many of your quotes saying you flew th Fw190 all the time in IL2. I never saw you in anything else.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:58 PM
Striker-PBNA wrote:
- That's strange. There is a plane in my a/c pull down
- menu that has three different P-39 models. What am I
- missing here? I have FB. Please explain someone. ~S~
-


Striker,

Those are just there so noobs can fly too. They have no FM, just turn & shoot buttons /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:00 PM
- but the new cockpit is pretty nice - just need the rigth FM back...

S!

M0NS



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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:13 PM
yes but at least people wanted to fly the Fw190 is the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:15 PM
TOPGUN<----</i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

The Russians loved the P-39. Check your history.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:20 PM
yes but only the "russians" liked it because it was the only plane they had...
they had to like to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

And the russians were the only people who did

everyone else hated it
from all parts of the world

-----------------------------------
Its A known fact that Mighty Demons are here to kill. I know I am
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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:21 PM
I flew the P-39's alot, I just wasn't good enough in them to come here and chat about it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Did achieve decent success though. Here are some numbers for you to think about.

Real P-39N1 specs:
Climb rate: 3700 ft/sec according to Skychimp's data, very american biased (I'm american too BTW)
Stall speed clean: don't know, higher than 145 km/h IAS /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Stall speed landing configuration: 145 km/h IAS
Maximum dive speed: 640 km/h IAS (elevators would warp beyond repair and make plane nearly unflyable)


FB P-39N1 specs:
Climb rate: 4500 ft/sec
Stall speed clean: 130 km/h IAS
Stall speed landing configuration: 110 km/h IAS
Maximum dive speed: 820 km/h IAS

Less provable problems:
Real P-39N's were subject to vicious flat spins, FB P-39N1 only enters very mild stalls. Real P-39 suffered from an effective service ceiling of 15,000ft (~4600m), FB P-39 is a hot rod all they way up to 8,000m or more.

Still think the P-39 in FB is right? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

Message Edited on 09/16/0302:23PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:25 PM
This thread is a bad idea.
It will surely confound the n00bs.
I vote for an immediate lock.



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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:28 PM
So, MD...the only P-39 we are missing is N1? You agree that Q`s are somewhat correct?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:32 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- So, MD...the only P-39 we are missing is N1? You
- agree that Q`s are somewhat correct?

Undecided, I havn't run enough formal tests with them to make any intellegent judgement on them.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:34 PM
Maj_Death wrote:

-
- Real P-39N1 specs:
- Climb rate: 3700 ft/sec according to Skychimp's
- data,

SkyChimp usually quotes "America's Hundred Thousand" which list max climb rate for P-39n/Q at 3400 ft/min at combat power.



Message Edited on 09/16/0303:50PM by faustnik

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:40 PM
Naw, I'd take a p51 instead

S!
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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:41 PM
What we really need is even more P-39s. We need the P-400 and P-39D. They had less horsepower than the N and poorer performance. Should be:

P-39D/P-400 - 1941-1942
P-39N - 1943
P-39Q - 1944

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:48 PM
I want the real P39 back please. And the real 109 while we're at it.

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
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Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:50 PM
MD,

I didn't say the P-39 was right. No more than the Fw190 anyway. I said I detect luftwhining../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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Message Edited on 09/16/0307:56PM by Rocrawler

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:52 PM
All of this P-39 whining is stupid.

The '44 P-39's are just as distorted as the Fw models.

No one is going to fly P-39Q's after the release of the P-51.

When lomac is released the old school Il-2 guy will rise up and reclaim FB from the uber-performance n00b's (who will flock to lomac, as it will be the latest greatest sim.) and Oleg will restore realistic FM's across the board.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:57 PM
Rocrawler wrote:
- MD,
-
- I didn't say the P-39 was right. No more than the
- Fw190 anyway. I said I detct luftwhining..

No one biting mate....ok I'll play /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

God damn n00b.....U aint l33t guy U only got 10 posts!

U n00bs don't even know what luft meens.....U sound just like that Uber n00b Earl with the truck in his sig http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

P.S Hopefully I haven't really offended U

wheres the A10? In the Garage


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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:58 PM
DKP

Volkswagons suck. Get a real sig../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:00 PM
It used to be a challenge to fly.

Now you can spiral climb with anything in the game and you have to work at stalling the thing!

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:02 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- When lomac is released the old school Il-2 guy will
- rise up and reclaim FB from the uber-performance
- n00b's (who will flock to lomac, as it will be the
- latest greatest sim.) and Oleg will restore
- realistic FM's across the board.

Nothing wrong with jets, I plan to fly both. But I doubt LO:MAC will be released before summer 2010 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif .

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:03 PM
2010? More like 2015 a the earliest.

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
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Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire
Who stole the 109's mojo!?

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:05 PM
I prefer to be optimistic about release dates /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:05 PM
I never said there is anything wrong with jets, I am saying that the n00b-ish population who has whined our sim in to an uber-plane arcade game will move on to the performance packed jets where they will argue about missles and how SU's are better than the POS F-15.

American planes suck after all.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:05 PM
Rocrawler wrote:
- DKP
-
- Volkswagons suck. Get a real sig

Like a great big articulated truck?


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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:06 PM
Count me in.

Nic

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:11 PM
DKP,

Exactly../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:11 PM
If oleg and the team somehow think that the current P39 FM is correct, I will not play online again when the P63 is released. The horror!

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
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Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire
Who stole the 109's mojo!?

ZG77_Nagual
09-16-2003, 09:11 PM
I haven't seen any solid data on the Qs - but vvs data/pilot reports support the current fms better than the american data. I think it's important to remember that innapropriate dogfighting tactics were employed against an opponent with superior hardware/pilots in the pacific when the p39 was getting it's bad rap. The brits thought it a good low-level dogfighter - it was sold to them under false pretext however and this ticked them off - it also was not what they were looking for. Significant improvements/field mods were made to this aircraft by bell and the vvs in the course of it's evolution. In IL2 the 39 was a very unstable aircraft in all varients - with a very sensitive rudder that made aiming difficult. Personally I like it better now and feel it is a bit closer to reality than it was - though I think the performance diff between the n1 and the q models could be more pronounced.

If you are going to believe pilot reports - believe chuck yeager - and the vvs aces - they (the vvs guys) are the ones who flew it in combat the most.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:12 PM
Not that anyone ever seems to address these questions, but since it's being brought up again, I'll ask again.

How do you know for sure it's wrong?

How do you know for sure it was right in IL-2?

How do you know if either FM was right, or wrong?

How do you know what the testing conditions (Wx, aircraft wear, pilot skill, etc) that the historical data you're looking at is based on?

How do you know what the testing conditions you're using in the sim are based on?

If they differ between the real and simulated conditions modeled in the sim, do you know how to properly correct/convert the numbers and draw a meaningful conclusion? Unless you start from the same point (or bother to correct for it so that you effectively do), your tests and numbers mean nothing.

Are you aware that published numbers often differ from "real world" numbers, and that variations of 10% or more are not uncommon?

Published numbers may represent an ideal aircraft flown by an experienced pilot under ideal conditions, is it possible that in the name of realism, the sim is modeling the "average" aircraft performance likely to be encountered in the real world (ie, worn engine, wartime maintenance, less than skilled pilots)?

Are you aware that real time flight modeling in exacting detail is impossible with modern computer hardware, and the best we're likely to get (for many years to come) is an approximation?

It seems to me that given all of the above, there's really very little to be accomplished by complaining about slight variances between "tested" conditions in the sim and the numbers in your favorite historical source. No matter how tweaked you make the FM, it's going to be different. It'll never match exactly.

The best we can hope for (and should be working toward) is a pretty good ballpark performance of the aircraft with respect to historical numbers, and be more focused on relative performance between the aircraft being modeled.

Then it shouldn't matter much what the simulated conditions are, because in theory, each aircraft type should be "off" by the same amounts.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:15 PM
Poor P-39 is always getting beat up.

It sucks! It's uber. It sucks! It's uber, and so on and so on and so on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<center>
No Guts No Glory
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:18 PM
Rocrawler wrote:
- DKP,
-
- Exactly../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


I feel violated regarding you harsh comments towards my beautiful....slow....unreliable.....car /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:46 PM
DKP,

It was Hitlers idea after all. Not the brightest bulb in the chandilier.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<center>
No Guts No Glory
<center>
http://www.jpmagazine.com/jpmag/eventcoverage/p95932_image_small.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:47 PM
The orange ball on the antenna is a nice touch....

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:16 PM
Maj_Death wrote:
- I flew the P-39's alot, I just wasn't good enough in
- them to come here and chat about it

Hell, I think I remember you first posting about how much you loved the Fw 190.

I vote affirmative, I'd like to see a P39 again.

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-"
-Major General John Sedgwich, Battle of Spotsylvania

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:35 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- The orange ball on the antenna is a nice touch....

Its from a US oil company I think it said 76,71 or 66 but some asshat stole it and then another asshat broke the arial off it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

It is an asshat magnet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:36 PM
i dont know about how acurate it is but i always like the look and the cockpit in the p39 and even if it is off a little i really like to fly it(i use the flaps a lot set at combat or takeoff for a hard turn and i can stay with a yak for a while)i still get shot down but?its the only plane i got the prop pitch really fig out and can keep it cool and get good performance when its needed. i run a really low prop pitch relative to other aircraft in FB(65% power and 35%prop pitch radiator set to pos 2 nets good speed and keeps it cool)

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:37 PM
Nahhh, P-38 in the free addon!

Please? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:43 PM
Rocrawler wrote:
- DKP,
-
- It was Hitlers idea after all. Not the brightest
- bulb in the chandilier.
-

But of course Ferdinand Porshe designed it and we all love 911's....on the other hand he also designed the Maus...DOH!




<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:44 PM
I sure miss the old one from IL-2,and the 109 too.

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
Pattuglia Acrobatica Virtuale
http://www.pav-amvi.it

http://www.calaggieflyers.com/



http://www.txsquadron.com/images/txsquadron_main.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:22 PM
DKP wrote:

- It is an asshat magnet

Kinda like this thread.

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:04 AM
Maj_Death wrote:
- I flew the P-39's alot, I just wasn't good enough in
- them to come here and chat about it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Did achieve decent success
- though. Here are some numbers for you to think
- about.
-
- Real P-39N1 specs:
- Climb rate: 3700 ft/sec according to Skychimp's
- data, very american biased (I'm american too BTW)
- Stall speed clean: don't know, higher than 145 km/h
- IAS /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
- Stall speed landing configuration: 145 km/h IAS
- Maximum dive speed: 640 km/h IAS (elevators would
- warp beyond repair and make plane nearly unflyable)
-
-
- FB P-39N1 specs:
- Climb rate: 4500 ft/sec
- Stall speed clean: 130 km/h IAS
- Stall speed landing configuration: 110 km/h IAS
- Maximum dive speed: 820 km/h IAS
-
-Although I agree with skychimps data most of the time I must disagree here. All the data I have seen for the real P-39N1 goes as follows. And yes Iam American and not biased.
TOP SPEED=375MPH
HORSEPOWER=1,200
CLIMB FT/MIN=2,500
CEILING/FT=35,000
RANGE MILES=500
Ext.RANGE =1,000
WEIGHT LOADED=7,570LBS

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:48 AM
Maj_Death wrote:

- FB P-39N1 specs:
- Climb rate: 4500 ft/sec

Damn, sea level to 51 miles altitude in a minute?

Let's see... That means it can climb out at roughly 3,068 mph, or 2,666 kts, or approximately Mach 4 (at sea level).

Nice. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Okay, yeah, that might be a touch overmodeled. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Message Edited on 09/16/0311:59PM by BinaryFalcon

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:01 AM
Howdy
There were many different variants of the P-39.
Of all of the "Combat" variants the P-39Q1 without
gun pods or the P-39N5 with the reduced armour (no
bullet proof glass in the back, should be the most
split arse.

The P-39N and the P-39Q1 both had four wing fuel tanks
deleted. These fuel cells were removed(33 Gal) through
pilot input from the USAAF units in the Pacific. They
wanted a more manueverable plane. The USAAF flew the
Cobra with an external dropable fuel tank as standard so
they didn't miss the decreased fuel capacity.
The VVS did not use the external fuel tank so they wanted
the full fuel capacity returned. Bell made field
installation kits for this to keep everyone happy.
The Airforce wasn't really interested in the P-39 by
mid 43 so "most" P-39's N's and Q's went to Russia.

My info for the P-39N1
*I have no idea how they completed these tests. Probably
in a no ammo partial fuel config. Bell liked good
performance figures so their test planes received specail
treatment.

P-39N-BE 500 built
Allison V-1710-85 1200Hp AeroProducts 11'4" prop.
empty weight 5675lbs
gross weight 7600lbs
max internal fuel 87 gallons
Max external fuel 175 gallons
ceiling 38,500 feet (heheh must have dropped it from a B-29
to get that figure) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Rate of climb 3.8 mins to 15K feet (Has got to be a typo,,
must be 4.8mins)
Max speed 379mph at 15k feet
combat range 750 miles
Max range 1,250 miles

P-39N-1-BE 600 built
No perf data. Same as P-39N equip except:
Aerproducts 11'7" prop, and added weight to
the nose to restore COG when the nose ammo was expended.

P-39N-5-BE 695 built
Same as N-1 except
38 lbs of armour reduced. Small piece of armour added to
headrest to replace bullet proof glass that was deleted.

Someone said the N model made more horsepower than the
earlier Cobra's.. Depends on the model.

The P39D-2-BE, the P-39K, and the P-39L had the Allison
V1710-63 1325hp.

The P-39M had the V1710-83 1360hp.

All N and Q models used the V1710-85 1200hp.

P-39Q-1-BE 150 built
Allison V-1710-85 1200Hp AeroProducts 11'7" prop.
empty weight 5645lbs
gross weight 7700lbs
max internal fuel 87 gallons
Max external fuel 175 gallons
ceiling 35K feet
Rate of climb 4.5 mins to 15K feet
Max speed 385mph at 15k feet
combat range 650 miles
Max range 1,100 miles

S!
Weasel

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:04 AM
oops 4500 ft/min, not ft/sec.

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:13 AM
~S! All,

Oops, I think maybe Skychimp made a typo or is misquoted. Climb rate are usually expressed as FPM or M/S. ( feet per minute or meters per second)

Here are the P-39N & Q V speeds as shown in A's 100K

I refer you to the performance curves on Page 191 of that reference.

VNE 475 MPH or 790 KM, however, the bird had a max structural limit to 523MPH IAS or about 840km.

Vs 105 MPH, 168 Km ( stall speed clean)
Vso 90 MPH, 145 Km ( stall speed in landing config), both in level flt.

Climb rate: Initial 3,400 FPM and 3,000 FPM through 13,000 '
Max Speed in level flt:
SL 320 MPH or 515 Km
@ 13,000' 380 MPH or 610 Km
Flt Test Weight 7,570 #

FYI, Stall speeds are IAS, other speeds are TAS, except at SL the IAS and TAS, in theory can be the same.

The tail weakness you mention came in around 410 MPH/ 660Km, on early deliveries to the VVS. Modifications were accomplished in the field. Bell modified the tails at the factory and retro fitted those birds in the delivery pipeline. The Fabric bulging at high speed made the bird susceptible to control reversals near VNE. This problem was more endemic to the fabric ailerons than elevator.

Elevator and aileron effectiveness/degradation, was not an issue from all the reading I have. The airplane could easily be hand flown throughout its performance envelope without the need to retrim. The P-39's control were very light and harmonized. The FM we see is way out of character IMHO. The elevators lose effectiveness approaching 500Km , so much that now one just needs to pull the stick back to aft limit and wait.. if you begin to grey out, you just relax a little until the view improves. ( ailerons are little fast but the pitch rate is not there.) It is very difficult to depart the plane until it slows. ( the propensity to Spin is another subject, but the N's and Q's incorporated many changes to tame this down relative to D models.)

What we see now is the 39's does not deliver its speed according the data I have, nor does it handle with the needed finesse it use to require. As a caveat, now, I'll grant there seem to be test ( speed and climb) performance numbers that differ, however I haven't seen sources that markedly differ from the above. Elevators are very arcadish now. We also see a machine that starts to shed parts at 740 to 760 Km. If there are other sources, I'd appreciate the info.

I usually fly the '39 however the present FM is not as enjoyable as the IL2 demo and very early IL2.

The delopment team has received test data, now from a number of contributers, whether anything is gone to be done with it future I have no idea.

Regards:




BPO5_Jinx
C.O. Replacement Air Group
Birds of Prey. 16th GvIAP
http://www.birdsofprey16thgviap.com
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/RS-15/N50GL.html

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:32 AM
Maj_Death wrote:

Hate to break the news to you but in IL2 I spent
- almost as much time in P-39's as I did in axis
- planes. This isn't luftwhining. There is absolutly
- no data that supports the P-39's flight model right
- now. And on top of that, I did like the old P-39's
- (to fly, not just shoot) but I can't stand them now.
- There is NOT a single P-39 in FB now. The P-39 was
- removed in FB 1.0 and it appears we arn't going to
- get it back unless we really push for it. The
- current "P-39" flight models are closer to a Ka-50's
- than that of a real P-39.
-
- You can say that I have never flown a P-39 and
- therefore can't know what it could do, but I can use
- that same arguement on you and Oleg. However, I do
- know people who have flown P-39's. I have even seen
- a P-63 fly and chatted with one of its pilots. What
- the so called "P-39" in FB is currently capable of
- doing is absurd. No one who has flown a real P-39 or
- P-63 would claim its correct.
-
Good to hear, BTW i haven't read the rest of the posts so forgive me if i missed something.

Maj Death wrote : and it appears we arn't going to
- get it back unless we really push for it.

Well I can support that. Honestly. i was in a bit of a foul mood earlier I am afraid. But I'm better now. Actually many folks have said it's off & once you explain yourself ....(hint) I support an effort to improve the P39 FM. I do not think it was as bad a plane as many folks do after reading American reports on it. Liek the Brewster , which the Finns modified & made great use of the P39 was a great plane, when flown within it's rightful environment. (sounds pompous perhaps but its the beer speaking---that's why i feel better now/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Still seems you'd get further with a more straight forward post.

http://idealab.snu.ac.kr/~hobbist/La-5FN/small/La-5FN-06.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:52 AM
You know waht Oleg's answer is. "You is wrong!"

This is so because russians added magic pixie dust (we all know about this by now) and removed a few pounds of armour which turned the p39 from a touchy poor climbing plane to an ultra uber russian killing machine.

It's obvious the FM engine can't model every aspect of these planes right. Look at the fw, it freaking rolls almost as fast at 800kmh as it does at 300kmh. Look at the lagg 41 vs 109f series overheat issue. LA7's now refuse to turn decently at all above 400kmh and they turn too fast at low speeds. FW's can pull 16 freaking g's out of a dive!

Tons of planes in this sim are innaccurate after this "final" patch.

I'll wait for next sim running on 6ghz 64bit cpus before I expect anything close to accurate flight performance from all planes.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:53 AM
Thanks. Learn something new everyday. So is there any other "noobs" in FB?

ZG77_Nagual
09-17-2003, 03:13 AM
BPO5 Jinx- your data would seem to support the current fm barring a couple of things - elevator is under modeled - particularly at high speeds - thus the plane should also be easier to pull into a stall - but - in skillfull hands should be every bit as maneuverable as it is now - but better at high speeds? Just checking to see if I'm reading you right.

Climb- by your data seems respectable and, while the numbers may be off - the relative performance (to other ac in sim)seems pretty close.

Primary gripes I seem to be seeing are that the plane climbs too well and is too maneuverable - I'm getting that it should actually be more maneuverable but also more easily over-maneuvered. Climb may have to do with the overall physics problem and affect all planes equally - at least it kinda seems that way to me. Be interesting to see actual relative tests with supporting data - but I ain't doin it!

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:20 AM
I liked the old P-39.

Member of A-20 Havoc whiners. Over two thousand nine hundred A-20s delivered to the USSR, be sure!

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:37 AM
Rocrawler wrote:
- Poor P-39 is always getting beat up.
-
- It sucks! It's uber. It sucks! It's uber, and so on
- and so on and so on.

LOL, it's funny cause it's true.

If we had a freakin' search function at this site.....we could probably line up the IL2 and FB patch release dates with all those P39 is Uber! P39 Sucks! posts and have a veritable kournakovia, ahem, cornucopia of P39 FMs to laugh about./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Just from a rock, paper, scissors standpoint and IMO, only the very Ace online P39 pilots, in any series of IL2 or FB were able to turn inside of an Ace online LA5FN, LA7 or Yak3. And not that often./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now, it seems to have more elevator authority and a little too reduced stall capability. This plane was a "widowmaker" in real life, if handled the way it can be handled in the current FB.

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 07:52 AM
~S! Nagual, Yes, what I'm saying is that the machine's overall manueverability would be unchanged, but the elevater effectiveness if more correct ( giving more pitch rate) will make the bird more difficult for the pilot to extract the performance. Too hard a pull, if not stalling the bird, would more readily bleed energy.

However in accomplished hands the machine would indeed be able to keep its energy and be just as effective, but make a mistake it would show much like the earlier examples we saw.

Overall, the speed seems alittle off, The last speed runs I ran were 490km for the N and 500km for the Q-10 at S.L.

This model is down to minor tweaking IMHO.

The the P-39's energy retention isn't wrong from my view, you just can't make a mistake by being ham-handed. ( under normal circumstances if one pulls too hard, there goes the airspeed PDQ)

We seem to be getting closer here.

Regards:





BPO5_Jinx
C.O. Replacement Air Group
Birds of Prey. 16th GvIAP
http://www.birdsofprey16thgviap.com
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/RS-15/N50GL.html

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 08:48 AM
IL2 FORGOTTEN BATTLES SEEMS TO HAVE THE P-63 RIGHT NOW MISS-LABELED P-39


I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE P-39 ACCOMPANY THE P-63 WE HAVE NOW