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View Full Version : Spit VIII v. Spit IX



3.JG51_BigBear
12-07-2004, 09:36 PM
Does anyone have a quick breakdown of the differences between these two models. Thanks.

VW-IceFire
12-07-2004, 09:45 PM
VIII is supposed to be a bit faster, has a retractable tail wheel, tropicalized (generally), some structural improvements, and its a bit heavier.

Otherwise, its the same Spitfire to my knowledge. Some of the innards are improved and some tolerances are higher but essentially it and the IX are difficult to single out.

In our cases, both planes use the same engine, same armament options in terms of cannons, and essentially are the same.

3.JG51_BigBear
12-07-2004, 10:17 PM
In that case, I'm glad we have both http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif. Thanks for the info and the quick response.

jurinko
12-08-2004, 12:07 AM
MkIX was MkV frame with stronger engine fitted, MkVIII had also stronger wing and aerodynamical refinements. Should be a bit better than IX.

WUAF_Badsight
12-08-2004, 01:08 AM
i come by my FB plane knowledge from useage

& im not telling :P

Abbuzze
12-08-2004, 03:46 AM
In PF it seem just vice versa!

The VIII has the performance of an IX, while the IX seems to be a higher boosted latewar version...
The HF version seem to reach speeds, that are more in the area of the XIV...

pourshot
12-08-2004, 04:27 AM
Some RAAF charts for mk VIII

climb (http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/VIII_climb_chart.jpg)

speed (http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/VIII_speed_chart.jpg)

Sir_Zerg
12-08-2004, 07:35 AM
ive resently bort IL2 FB, and i have seen screen shots with the spitfire and i am wondring where did it come from is it in the ace expaction or PF, or a 3rd party modle?

Thanks

Zerg

JR_Greenhorn
12-08-2004, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sir_Zerg:
ive resently bort IL2 FB, and i have seen screen shots with the spitfire and i am wondring where did it come from is it in the ace expaction or PF, or a 3rd party modle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The first Spit we got was the Mk V, which came out in 4 variants with AEP:
Spitfire Mk Vb
Spitfire Mk Vb (CW)
Spitfire LF Mk Vb
Spitfire LF Mk Vb (CW)

Mk IX spits came out after AEP, in a patch 2.01. These were:
Spitfire Mk IXc
Spitfire Mk IXc (CW)
Spitfire Mk IXe
Spitfire Mk IXe (CW)
Spitfire Mk IXe (HF)

PF includes:
Seafire F MkIII
Seafire L MkIII
Spitfire MkVIII

VW-IceFire
12-08-2004, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
In PF it seem just vice versa!

The VIII has the performance of an IX, while the IX seems to be a higher boosted latewar version...
The HF version seem to reach speeds, that are more in the area of the XIV... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope...the IX has the same boost pressure at corresponding altitudes to the VIII. In both cases I'm talking about the LF IX and LF VIII (since those are the only ones we have).

The HF is an odd bird but it still does not achieve Mark XIV speeds anywhere (its closest is up at 9000 meters or so). It is slower at sea level than the LF models (clipped and unclipped) which makes me wonder why people fly it alot in a dogfight server at sea level.

IMHO, none of the Spitfire's we have are boosted to 1944 standards. All of them are 1943 standards. The 1944 Spitfires were indeed faster than our current bunch because of the extra boost pressure possible/allowed on the engines. But few have noticed.

Sir_Zerg
12-08-2004, 08:19 AM
cool thanks dude, note to selfe buy the AEP.

DangerForward
12-08-2004, 08:33 AM
Does the Spit VIII have better range than the IX? I thought the redesign of the Spit's wing allowed some room for extra fuel in the VIII.

Abbuzze
12-08-2004, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

Nope...the IX has the same boost pressure at corresponding altitudes to the VIII. In both cases I'm talking about the LF IX and LF VIII (since those are the only ones we have).

[...]

IMHO, none of the Spitfire's we have are boosted to 1944 standards. All of them are 1943 standards. The 1944 Spitfires were indeed faster than our current bunch because of the extra boost pressure possible/allowed on the engines. But few have noticed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I would like to hear your explanation why the (ingame) IX in this game is 26km/h or more than 16 mph faster than the VIII we have?
660km/h vs 686km/h @ 7000m ?
I allways thought the VIII was a better reconstruction, but here it is outperformed...

And aren´t these IX a bit fast for 43??
The values I know for Merlin 66 in 43 are
654 km/h @ 6705 m
and for a Merlin 70
668 km/h @ 8229 m
our LF IX is nearly 20 km/h faster then these ones...


Low level you are right for the HF, it is even slower than a clean LF IX, high up @8000m it´s missing the topspeed of a XIV by 12km/h.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/jf319sup.html

Col.Kurtz
12-08-2004, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And aren´t these IX a bit fast for 43??
The values I know for Merlin 66 in 43 are
654 km/h @ 6705 m
and for a Merlin 70
668 km/h @ 8229 m
our LF IX is nearly 20 km/h faster then these ones...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spit IX @18LB had the same Vmax like the FW190A8.
And so is it ingame.
I wonder why people allways only see the planes they fight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Abbuzze
12-08-2004, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Col.Kurtz:

Spit IX @18LB had the same Vmax like the FW190A8.
And so is it ingame.
I wonder why people allways only see the planes they fight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ingame A8 is faster from 4000-6000m (max diff. 40km/h !) when the LF IX switches to the higher gear. Its also faster at 1000m also nearly 40 km/h.
Above 6000m the Spit is faster with a max. diff. of more than 30 km/h... but I don´t found datas for the FW so don´t know if it is real! :/

WOLFMondo
12-08-2004, 10:08 AM
Which engine does the VIII have in PF, Merlin 66? I was under the impression the IX's in game have different engines in each of them?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DangerForward:
Does the Spit VIII have better range than the IX? I thought the redesign of the Spit's wing allowed some room for extra fuel in the VIII. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think theres an extra tank behind the cockpit in the VIII.

Col.Kurtz
12-08-2004, 10:15 AM
FW190A8
Real Speed:
565km/h SL
650km/h @ 5500m

ingame: (il2Compare)
580km/h SL
670-680km/h 5500m

SpitIX@18lb
Real:
540km/h SL
655km/h @ 6700m

ingame: (il2Compare)
540km/h SL
690km/h@7000m
I also read from someone that Spit data in Il2compare is outdated.
Realtest should bring the evidence here.

JtD
12-08-2004, 10:21 AM
Let me guess, Abuzze, you are still using the outdated data from IL-2compare 2.5? Ever looked when the charts were made?

Abbuzze
12-08-2004, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:
Let me guess, Abuzze, you are still using the outdated data from IL-2compare 2.5? Ever looked when the charts were made? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are right, and so you have better and newer datas I assume? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

USAflyer
12-08-2004, 11:52 AM
Well they do have one thing in common.
Very very generous modeling.

p1ngu666
12-08-2004, 12:43 PM
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/spit8vs9.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif we would haveto look to hop, and biggs to say if thats deffo wrong. i thought 8 was a smidge better all round, apart from climb..

usaflyer, there actully undermodeled http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
vb's have minium amount of ammo, also far too slow but climb too good. IX is 43 spec (44 E have diff wing but are not any better)

vbs cant carry bombs or drop tanks, and im not sure if the 8 can, which it did.

Abbuzze
12-08-2004, 12:56 PM
I would say IX is overmodelled if it is realy a 43 version http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
12-08-2004, 01:15 PM
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/spitvsg2.jpg

http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/spitvsg6.jpg

hmm yeah so far ahead of its contempories...

VW-IceFire
12-08-2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

Nope...the IX has the same boost pressure at corresponding altitudes to the VIII. In both cases I'm talking about the LF IX and LF VIII (since those are the only ones we have).

[...]

IMHO, none of the Spitfire's we have are boosted to 1944 standards. All of them are 1943 standards. The 1944 Spitfires were indeed faster than our current bunch because of the extra boost pressure possible/allowed on the engines. But few have noticed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I would like to hear your explanation why the (ingame) IX in this game is 26km/h or more than 16 mph faster than the VIII we have?
660km/h vs 686km/h @ 7000m ?
I allways thought the VIII was a better reconstruction, but here it is outperformed...

And aren´t these IX a bit fast for 43??
The values I know for Merlin 66 in 43 are
654 km/h @ 6705 m
and for a Merlin 70
668 km/h @ 8229 m
our LF IX is nearly 20 km/h faster then these ones...


Low level you are right for the HF, it is even slower than a clean LF IX, high up @8000m it´s missing the topspeed of a XIV by 12km/h.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/jf319sup.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have no explanation...that seems very odd. The two should be near identical from what I can tell.

What top speed are you getting in the HF. What data do you have on the XIV?

Again: Performance would be higher if we had 1944 modeled Spitfire IX's. But they are using 1943 boost pressure settings according to the guages in the cockpit.

Abbuzze
12-08-2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

What top speed are you getting in the HF. What data do you have on the XIV?

Again: Performance would be higher if we had 1944 modeled Spitfire IX's. But they are using 1943 boost pressure settings according to the guages in the cockpit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh thats why you say we have 43versions... the gauges. There were only a few patch versions in which they were shown correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (in the 1st versions of FB as far as I know) Sad but true...
I think this homepage is very nice:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/jf319sup.html
lot of datas with original documents as source.

Early XIVs (18'boost) are listed there with 719km/h @7800m.

USAflyer
12-08-2004, 01:32 PM
I believe it is generously modeled. You are entitled to your own opinion.

Atomic_Marten
12-08-2004, 06:49 PM
Also, has anyone noticed that one loadout for Spit Mk.III is incorrect?

Instead of 4xRockets, in option for loadout says 8xRocket. But when you load the game there is only four of them under wings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
12-08-2004, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

What top speed are you getting in the HF. What data do you have on the XIV?

Again: Performance would be higher if we had 1944 modeled Spitfire IX's. But they are using 1943 boost pressure settings according to the guages in the cockpit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh thats why you say we have 43versions... the gauges. There were only a few patch versions in which they were shown correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (in the 1st versions of FB as far as I know) Sad but true...
I think this homepage is very nice:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/jf319sup.html
lot of datas with original documents as source.

Early XIVs (18'boost) are listed there with 719km/h @7800m. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd have to spend some time testing but from what I know, our Spitfire IX's, according to the people who have been arguing it out on the boards, roughly correspond to 18lbs of boost pressure Spitfire IX's. In 2.04 the speeds above the superchargers kick in altitude were too high. I'm told thats now corrected but I've never checked. So please correct me (and them) if its wrong but as far as I know its corresponding to the Spitfires as specified in 1943. In 1944 they ran their LF IX's at 24lbs of boost pressure with the corresponding changes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>.The increase in performance with the increase in boost from +18 to +25 lb/sq.in. corresponds to :

1) 950 ft/min. in rate of climb in M.S. gear
2) 900 ft/min. in rate of climb in F.S. gear
3) 30 mph in maximum level speed in M.S. and F.S. gear

..................There is also an increase in fuel consumption of approximately 24%.

..................No maintenance difficulties of the engine were experienced.

For the full report click HERE

Note: JL.165 was delivered as a Spitfire V (Merlin 45) March 27, 1943. It was subsequently converted to a LFIX (Merlin 66) at Rolls Royce, Hucknall. Performance trials at Rolls Royce, Hucknall using +25 lbs. boost in October 1943, AAEE for trials 11-11-43, Transfered to Air Service Training 3-6-44, 6 Maintenance Unit 26-10-44, 82 Maintenace Unit 10-11-44, Casablanca 15-1-45, Struck off charge 28-8-47. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html

So apparently it gets faster. As for the HF, thats a rare bird...I have not much information on it.

I'm happy to have you check the sources and compair in-game VS the reported data. Does it perform at 24lbs of boost or does it perform at 18lbs? The cockpit reads 18lbs....therefore I'm assuming Oleg programmed a 18lbs boost pressure Spitfire and not a 24lbs uprated version.

*shrug*

Abbuzze
12-09-2004, 01:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

I'd have to spend some time testing but from what I know, our Spitfire IX's, according to the people who have been arguing it out on the boards, roughly correspond to 18lbs of boost pressure Spitfire IX's. In 2.04 the speeds above the superchargers kick in altitude were too high. I'm told thats now corrected but I've never checked. So please correct me (and them) if its wrong but as far as I know its corresponding to the Spitfires as specified in 1943. In 1944 they ran their LF IX's at 24lbs of boost pressure with the corresponding changes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>.The increase in performance with the increase in boost from +18 to +25 lb/sq.in. corresponds to :

1) 950 ft/min. in rate of climb in M.S. gear
2) 900 ft/min. in rate of climb in F.S. gear
3) 30 mph in maximum level speed in M.S. and F.S. gear

..................There is also an increase in fuel consumption of approximately 24%.

..................No maintenance difficulties of the engine were experienced.

For the full report click HERE

Note: JL.165 was delivered as a Spitfire V (Merlin 45) March 27, 1943. It was subsequently converted to a LFIX (Merlin 66) at Rolls Royce, Hucknall. Performance trials at Rolls Royce, Hucknall using +25 lbs. boost in October 1943, AAEE for trials 11-11-43, Transfered to Air Service Training 3-6-44, 6 Maintenance Unit 26-10-44, 82 Maintenace Unit 10-11-44, Casablanca 15-1-45, Struck off charge 28-8-47. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html

So apparently it gets faster. As for the HF, thats a rare bird...I have not much information on it.

I'm happy to have you check the sources and compair in-game VS the reported data. Does it perform at 24lbs of boost or does it perform at 18lbs? The cockpit reads 18lbs....therefore I'm assuming Oleg programmed a 18lbs boost pressure Spitfire and not a 24lbs uprated version.

*shrug* <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It´s a real pity, but it seem that the data we got from the gauges are just for show again (like in classic il2)
Some people in the german forum asked Oleg cause they show sometimes to low values, but the gameengine calculate it correct for the rigth boost. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

There is an interesting fact about the higher boosted Merlin 66 with 25'. It seems that the increase of boost "just" increase the area of altitudes where the topspeed is reached.
While a standart 18' Spit IX got the topspeed just at 25000ft the 25' IX got the speed from 14400 to 25000ft, but the Topspeed is nearly the same, the 30mph plus is just reached in lower alts.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html

Level speed performance

Altitude feet---+ 18 lbs. Boost.--------+ 25 lbs. Boost.--------Increase.
0 330 M.S.--------354 M.S.--------+ 24 M.P.H.
3,200 343 "-----------367 " (a)-------+ 24 M.P.H.
8,000 364 "-----------367 "---------- + 3 M.P.H.
10,000 367 "-----------377 F.S.--------+10 M.P.H.
14,400 373 F.S.--------397 (a)---------+ 24 M.P.H.
20,000 397 (a)---------397.................-
25,000 394 " ----------394.................-

So the overall performance is much better, but nevertheless the topspeed is the same 397mph or 639 km/h (bit low here, maybe bombracks or such things)
But one thing I noticed... no Spit IX in all this test reaches the topspeed of 426mph which our spit has... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
12-09-2004, 01:15 PM
iirec the 25 boost couldnt be maintained by supercharger at all heights, its a fair jump from whatever it was intended to run (12/16/18?)

so i think its better or equal to what we have ingame, so heights better, others worse..

pourshot
12-09-2004, 03:21 PM
This is for the RAAF's LF VIII with merlin 66

LF mkVIII data sheet (http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/page1.jpg)

VW-IceFire
12-09-2004, 10:54 PM
Where are you reaching 426mph? What patch?

Definately 24lbs of boost is powerful addition. Giving it maximum speed at more than just the one critical area is a huge boost to performance relative its opponents.