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Wepps
11-06-2007, 06:12 PM
It's amazing to me that, after 6 years of learning and following the rules, I still get killed in off line play.

I've been wondering about this lately. After researching it at a low level, I've decided that those that survived the war in Russia were touched by providence in some manner.

They all had 'rules to live by', the things you do 'okay to go', the things you NEVER do, 'you idiot'. But even after following those rules I find myself being shot down so many times by ******* luck, I get frustrated and just fly a mission as a wildman tossing that rulebook. Every time it happens, my appreciation for those pilots skyrockets. I keep asking over and over...oh, what is it they did different? What am I doing wrong?

Then I sometimes return to the game and say...it's not me it's Oleg. It's so realistic that sometimes I get fooled into believing it IS real, but it's just a game. It probably has flaws.

Imagine, if you will, the dumb commander that keeps sending a staffel off to die at a Soviet airfield. Why would you do this? It's obvious suicide facing down that AA.

Or bouncing a flight of Douglas'. I dive and kill, then on the return trip up I get blasted by 15 gunners at the same time who are infallible, with infinite ammo and ridiculous range.

I break out a 110 because I'm bored with that, and on the first pass ripping a train to pieces the AA gets me. What is the point of trying?

I keep thinking that the game is much much worse than the reality must have been from a success standpoint.

For example, by December 31st 1941, the Russians lost, to all causes, 21,200 aircraft of the original 20,000 in June. The Luftwaffe lost 2,800. These figures are according to VVS and Luftwaffe reports, not the other side's claims.

That's an enormous number of losses for the VVS. Now, certainly the Luftwaffe maintained technical superiority over the VVS for the duration of the war. This doesn't mean they were realistically superior in the practicalities of aircraft design. Just like their armor was always superior to Russia's technically, doesn't mean the T-34 was inferior on the practical battlefield.

But flying Luftwaffe is a deadly game. I KNOW...I have lost more than 2,800 aircraft flying offline lol. I'm kind of concerned about this! I have never had a single pilot survive the first month of the campaign. Now this is an extraordinary statement, given the vast experience I now have flying it!

So it's one of two possibilities...

1 - What did the Luftwaffe know that I don't know?

2 - Maybe it's just a completely different level of danger in the game than it was in reality.

If it isn't '2', then I just don't see how it was possible to survive Hartmann-style.

Maybe it's the fact that there is no possible way to surprise the AI?

/shrug

spiffyscimitar
11-06-2007, 06:54 PM
I notice that pretty much any time you describe how you die, it was to bomber/AA fire. It's common knowledge the gunner/AA fire in IL2 is way, way too accurate and unforgiving.

And yes, isn't curious how AI planes seem to have a proximity detector and peel off JUST before you reach optimal firing range? heh. Hopefully these issues will be resolved in SoW.

AKA_TAGERT
11-06-2007, 07:01 PM
why?

simple really..

You can not teach or buy luck

VW-IceFire
11-06-2007, 07:14 PM
I think its quite possible to argue how accurate the game is until your blue in the face and the honest truth is we'll never really know completely and exactly. But I think this experience still teaches a valuable lesson that I'm going to put into the simplest terms: fighting a war sucks.

And if everyone thinks that flak is just too good...go read The Big Show (Pierre Closterman) and read the chapter where they loose 6 of 8 Tempests on a single pass over a German airfield.

Stew278
11-06-2007, 07:37 PM
I ask myself the same question. I've been playing for 5 years, yet I still get shot down in about 20% of my missions. A lot of times it's because I take stupid risks trying to get one more kill when I should really be running for home.

I think because this is a game, people will take risks that real life pilots would never have done. This leads to higher kill counts than in real life, but also leads to more losses. Simplifications in the game eliminate things like panic, fatigue, morale, mechanical problems, gunners being unable to fire well from jinking planes, etc. that would have influenced real combat as well.

Also the AI is relentless. You really can't bug out from a dogfight because they will pursue you all the way home. Last night I had 8 109's chase my Spitfire all the way back to base 50km inside red territory. You could expect they might pursue for awhile, but chasing a target back to his base would be suicide in real life unless your side has absolute air superiority. Sooner or later his buddies are gonna arrive and take you out or the flak will get you.

Another thing is that generally in the DGEN missions you are more or less 1:1 ratio of red:blue fighters. There may be some variation, but it is rarely something like 5:1 odds or worse, which probably happened in reality.

Divine-Wind
11-06-2007, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
But I think this experience still teaches a valuable lesson that I'm going to put into the simplest terms: fighting a war sucks.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Simplest way to put it.

I usually find it amazing that I haven't been killed. Lately I've been gotten so rusty (Battlefield 1942 does that to you) that if I get get through the first head-on merge without falling to pieces I'm surprised. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

darkhorizon11
11-06-2007, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Stew278:
I ask myself the same question. I've been playing for 5 years, yet I still get shot down in about 20% of my missions. A lot of times it's because I take stupid risks trying to get one more kill when I should really be running for home.

I think because this is a game, people will take risks that real life pilots would never have done. This leads to higher kill counts than in real life, but also leads to more losses. Simplifications in the game eliminate things like panic, fatigue, morale, mechanical problems, gunners being unable to fire well from jinking planes, etc. that would have influenced real combat as well.

Also the AI is relentless. You really can't bug out from a dogfight because they will pursue you all the way home. Last night I had 8 109's chase my Spitfire all the way back to base 50km inside red territory. You could expect they might pursue for awhile, but chasing a target back to his base would be suicide in real life unless your side has absolute air superiority. Sooner or later his buddies are gonna arrive and take you out or the flak will get you.

Another thing is that generally in the DGEN missions you are more or less 1:1 ratio of red:blue fighters. There may be some variation, but it is rarely something like 5:1 odds or worse, which probably happened in reality.

I agree 100% fixing this, which Oleg promises will be the difference maker in SOWBOB...
Here's some stats that were thrown out on the History Channel in a special about the TOP GUN ACADEMY.

Throughout aerial combat from WW1 on, 90% of pilots killed (not just shot down) never saw the bad guy coming. Note above where I mention hit and run.

Once a pilot survived his 5th combat mission his chances of survival increase dramatically.

Divine-Wind
11-06-2007, 07:57 PM
I guess by your fifth or so mission you would have seen enough wingmen get shot down or damaged/injured to realize that this war stuff was serious business.

captainbong1970
11-06-2007, 09:49 PM
there's "distaster on the frontiers" which has more realistic numbers in dgen campaigns

http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_campaigns_dof.htm

I think some of the early missions have about 30 german planes vs 4 soviet ones. The late war mission probably have the reverse.

Wepps
11-06-2007, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
why?

simple really..

You can not teach or buy luck

I'm a great believer that, to a certain degree, a man makes his own luck.

But I die way too often to nonsense in the campaigns.

Ironically, the mission I just flew had a full staffel of 109s in support of an airstrike on a soviet airfield. I was the only survivor.

Of course, I was the only one to fly in, kill an AA gun, and get the hell out of there.

As to making my own luck, when I see a pile of green tracers flying past me, I get out of the way.

I used to dogfight like mad, but I learned to bounce. But after seeing my remains all over Soviet airfields a thousand times, I've come to refer to that tactic as 'boom and broom'.

Chivas
11-07-2007, 12:06 AM
Every Ace in WW2 usually were very good pilots, good situational awareness, exceptional eyesight, and marksmen.

'BUT' the most important thing they all had in common was "LUCK". You had to have that in huge quantities to survive that kind of combat.

Most the pilots that survived the War had 'nine lives'.

DKoor
11-07-2007, 12:43 AM
TA-152 and P-47/51 USAAF PTo are two single easiest campaigns in the game IMO.
Believe it or not......... I lost only two Ai TA-152 "buddies" for whole campaign duration!
And they were facing Yak-3/9s, LA-7s, P-38s......

Some aircraft in this game will make your live offline longer, namely P-47/51 and FWs.
At least in my experience.

Now...... about Ai ammo.
They have limited supply from what I've been able to see so far.
You can try that easily.... setup QMB vs Ai Bf-109K and set your crate to invulnerable.
Let him on your 6.
He'll start pumping 108s and will run outta them real fast.

About Ai gunners.... truth to be told they are no big threat to me at this moment.... but then again I really spent far too much time on this sim, so I'm not sum glaring example.
I have learned how to attack every single type of bomber and from my experience by far deadliest ones are SuperForts.... solely because they usually fly very high. Powerful machines.

About AAA.
When in fragile machine like Bf-109 and I have orders to attack enemy airfield.... I simply make one pass and nothing more.
Damage done is usually satisfying, we get few AAA's and perhaps few crafts then run for home.
I'm just reading some book (Osprey More 109 Aces of the Russian Front) and I come across one interesting story....
6./JG52 Staffelkapitan ObLt. Gustav Denk and his wingman were on mission on 13th Feb 1943 somewhere near Krasnodar on the Caucasus Front...
...they spotted Russian airfield and attacked it. After they set few machines on fire, whole airfield was outhere shooting at them.
They didn't gave up on their attacks, and after one Denk pulled up and his 109 soaked quadruple flak burst after which 109 exploded mid-air.
TBH, it's not different in the game either.... AAA is simply extremely deadly at low alts.

M_Gunz
11-07-2007, 02:18 AM
First you should dig more about those Russian planes destroyed in 1941, esp the ones lost in
June 1941 including if they were parked on ground with the rest of the great majority of
Russian planes lost also were.

Then you find out how many were less than even I-153 (fixed-gear solid prop biplanes) and then
you get to the majority capable of fight at all were I-16's.

1942 wasn't so good for Russia in the numbers of better than I-153 planes. They used single
seat IL2's to intercept bombers, the Ratas were too slow, the first huge effort at IL2's was
because of stopping bombers. Early IL2 was Russian Bomber Destroyer by necessity!

What some missions are is your unit is facing VVS best equipped -- some Yaks and LaGGs were
there, sometime along they got Hurricanes and Spitfires, P-40's and P-39 that underwent changes
in cooperation between Bell and Russia but...

Wepps, you read the sites with the words of the Russian Aces?

And none of what you wrote about following rules and somehow always making it...
WOW that's unreal when you talk about war so you're expecting a game right?
You do get sent on pointless missions, at least pointless to you. That's real.
Who gets through and who does not, excellence only helps and sometimes counts for little.

You shouldn't expect so much out of Offline anyway. Have you tried Lowengrin's DGEN though?

HotelBushranger
11-07-2007, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Chivas:
'BUT' the most important thing they all had in common was "LUCK". You had to have that in huge quantities to survive that kind of combat.

Most the pilots that survived the War had 'nine lives'.

I wouldn't go that far, the way you've said it makes it seem as if their flying skills meant nothing, which I would say meant almost everything.

Whirlin_merlin
11-07-2007, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chivas:
'BUT' the most important thing they all had in common was "LUCK". You had to have that in huge quantities to survive that kind of combat.

Most the pilots that survived the War had 'nine lives'.

I wouldn't go that far, the way you've said it makes it seem as if their flying skills meant nothing, which I would say meant almost everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

However in most pilot autobiographis there is a 'lucky' escape early on. Something that could have easily gone the other way.
Of course skill is important as is experience but both need time to develop and that's where pure dumb chance becomes important.
How many potential aces got bounced and killed on their first mission, I wonder.

BaronUnderpants
11-07-2007, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I think its quite possible to argue how accurate the game is until your blue in the face and the honest truth is we'll never really know completely and exactly. But I think this experience still teaches a valuable lesson that I'm going to put into the simplest terms: fighting a war sucks.

And if everyone thinks that flak is just too good...go read The Big Show (Pierre Closterman) and read the chapter where they loose 6 of 8 Tempests on a single pass over a German airfield.


I remeber that....real intence.

I asked myselfe after reading it "why did 2 of them survive"? ( author beeing one of them ).

Only thing i could think of was...pure luck.

Pierre Closterman wasnt a complete newb at that point.


Reading his book u really understand beeing a fighter pilot isnt as "cool" as many think it is, me included.

The fact that many used drugs for one was complete news to me ( due to lack of sleep, stress and so on ). Not that its any suprise really, when one thinks about it. Many suffered from internal injuries from high speeds, g`s and so forth ( caughing blood )

Uggly buissnes really.

PikeBishop
11-07-2007, 04:23 AM
Dear All,
A point worth noting here apart from the unescessary risk taking is the percentage of missions flown IRL versus the percentage of missions where contact was made with the enemy, since in most cases each side were trying to avoid contact as much as possible unless their back was against the wall. In this game we are deliberately making contact where kills are made or you are killed. In SOW BoB I think that the increased realism regarding clouds and spotting will reduce the number of contacts online as most of the time you will be trying to spot the enemy......Okay large bomber formations accepted, as you are hardly likely to miss them.....but then trying to shoot one down could prove difficult with more realistic senarios and flight models.
Best regards,
SLP

triggerhappyfin
11-07-2007, 04:31 AM
Personally, I think it's all down to how we play the game. None of us pay the ultimate price for our mistakes in game - like dying. As this is the good side of playing a game we dont bother about beeing causious. We just bang in and die(virtually). The nature of the missions, timewise, makes us do hasty descisions and the urge of gaining points leads us to forget the risks involved. As we dont pay the ultimate price for our mistakes we can efford this kind of behaviour. If the game is played as if our life depends on how we engage our enemy, it would infuence the way we commenced our attacks or even avoid attacking, if the risks were too high.

Zoring
11-07-2007, 05:49 AM
I know exactly what you mean, i get the same thing. I try to play my campaigns and 'stay alive' as well as i can.

The best i have ever done is 83 missions as a Hungarian 109 pilot, when i finally got brought down i belly landed on a frozen lake which was on the russian side of the lines, but only just! Since it was on the lake i figured the pilot might have been able to leg it :P

Apart from that my next highest was 51 missions as a Finnish Gladiator pilot, on my first mission in a monoplane a I-153 (of all planes!) gets a burst into my cockpit from above, boom dead. God knows how anyone survived that war.

SpartanHoplite
11-07-2007, 06:05 AM
Another issue is that, in IL2 DGEN, you see combat every time you go into the air (more or less).

In WW2 reality, there would be long periods without combat (more in some theatres than others, of course). Look at the log books of the greats, even the Luft experten, and they weren't running into the enemy on every sortie.

SH

SeaFireLIV
11-07-2007, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
Personally, I think it's all down to how we play the game. None of us pay the ultimate price for our mistakes in game - like dying. As this is the good side of playing a game we dont bother about beeing causious. We just bang in and die(virtually). The nature of the missions, timewise, makes us do hasty descisions and the urge of gaining points leads us to forget the risks involved. As we dont pay the ultimate price for our mistakes we can efford this kind of behaviour. If the game is played as if our life depends on how we engage our enemy, it would infuence the way we commenced our attacks or even avoid attacking, if the risks were too high.

I agree here. I think while the issue of sniper like AI gunners are somewhat true, it`s not the real reason by far.

I think wepps is making the mistake of comparing himself with a REAL WWII pilot on the Eastern front.

Every time a pilot in real life went to fly, he flew for REAL. He would be FOCUSED, PREPARED, SCARED. He will have gone over his mission parameters until he knew what he had to do and where to go by memory. He would use DISCIPLINE and stick with his crew, do the job and GET OUT.

In contrast, the Player doesn`t start his flight with this mindset. It`s `I`ll fly another mission, let`s see if I can survive. what was the mission again? nevermind, i`ll just shoot the enemy down until i`m out of ammo`.

It really doesn`t matter that you`ve flown multiple years. 6 years flying a sim, is NOT the same as 6 years flying in WWII unless you treat it in EXACTLY the same way!

It`s very possible to survive through a whole campaign, but you will have to have max discipline and really learn your aircraft`s capabilities. Don`t take on bombers from their 6, make diagonal high speed zooming attacks. use rudder when attacking (works well with ground flak too) and NEVER make a 2nd run unless you`re certain it`s safe. DON`T take any risks at all. Oh and DON`T keep swapping aircraft. most pilots only ever flew 1-3 aircraft the whole campaign and got real good at ONE. This is how I try to fly per campaign. It`s one reason why I`m pretty good with the I16 on the Eastern front in the early part of the war (kinda sick of that plane now). Spitfire and P40 are also other favourites.

Also, no matter how good you are, even in real life, a lucky shot from a ground target could still kill you. It happened.

So, approach EACH mission with the same intensity and stress of wanting to survive as the real pilots did and then you`ll find you`ll probabaly survive quite a few missions. I myself have survived 3\4 quarters of a campaign once, but got lazy and crashed and burned on takeoff.

What? No fun? That`s the difference of flying 6 years in a sim as to 6 years in real-life war.

mortoma
11-07-2007, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by spiffyscimitar:
I notice that pretty much any time you describe how you die, it was to bomber/AA fire. It's common knowledge the gunner/AA fire in IL2 is way, way too accurate and unforgiving.

And yes, isn't curious how AI planes seem to have a proximity detector and peel off JUST before you reach optimal firing range? heh. Hopefully these issues will be resolved in SoW. Here we go again!! It's easy to hit planes with defensive guns!! I do it all the time and I'm generally better than the AI is!!
If they were inaccurate and over-modeled, then why am I a better shot than they are?!?!? Also, they are supposed to be unforgiving!! If you were a bomber gunner than wouldn't you be unforgiving?? Your job is to protect the bomber so you and your fellow crew can survive the mission. So if anything, they should have made the gunners in the sim more accurate.

And lastly, I can now after years of practice, survive attacking any bomber in the game. Althought attacking a B-17 or 29 with a Zero is quite difficult to survive. Most other combinations are suvivable. Just have to get good at what you're doing.

mortoma
11-07-2007, 07:26 AM
Bottom line, the AI gunners in this sim are easy on us, it's just that we have a lot of unskillful
pilots among our ranks. The AI gunners are terrible shots overall. Too many people attacking from dead six, that's why they get killed and then whine.

LeOs.K_Walstein
11-07-2007, 08:32 AM
I think You all made good points. According to my experience the most critical factor related to surviving campaigns is The attitude. You have to take it very, very seriously. I´m not exactly sure but I think that my top "score" is 112 missions with a Bf-109. I got less than 30 victories.

Wallstein

crucislancer
11-07-2007, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Stew278:
I ask myself the same question. I've been playing for 5 years, yet I still get shot down in about 20% of my missions. A lot of times it's because I take stupid risks trying to get one more kill when I should really be running for home.

So true.




Also the AI is relentless. You really can't bug out from a dogfight because they will pursue you all the way home. Last night I had 8 109's chase my Spitfire all the way back to base 50km inside red territory. You could expect they might pursue for awhile, but chasing a target back to his base would be suicide in real life unless your side has absolute air superiority. Sooner or later his buddies are gonna arrive and take you out or the flak will get you.


I think if you manage to get at least 6km of separation, they will break off. But, yeah. That's very true. I was playing a Fw190A8 campaign, and I had a pair of Yaks chase me all the way back to base, the only way I could avoid them was to skip the landing pattern and belly in, get my mission complete and end it before they strafed. It was hair raising, though.



Another thing is that generally in the DGEN missions you are more or less 1:1 ratio of red:blue fighters. There may be some variation, but it is rarely something like 5:1 odds or worse, which probably happened in reality.

DCG can take care of that for you, I believe.

The only time I've seen the odds differ in standard Dgen campaigns from 1:1 are on scramble missions. A squadron of 109s attacked my base in a Normandy Tempest campaign, and I had 2 flights. Also, playing an early war USN campaign, I had to fend off 2 flights of Betty bombers with a pair of Wildcats. It happens, just not very often. I'm working on a P-47 Normandy campaign now, and the last mission was my 2 flights against 4 109Gs, 2 190A8s, and 2 110s. The numbers were even, but not the matchup. I lost one plane to all of theirs.

It seems I get killed offline when I get ganged up on, or do something incredibly stupid like a full throttle dive from low alt, or get target fixation.

Chivas
11-07-2007, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chivas:
'BUT' the most important thing they all had in common was "LUCK". You had to have that in huge quantities to survive that kind of combat.

Most the pilots that survived the War had 'nine lives'.

I wouldn't go that far, the way you've said it makes it seem as if their flying skills meant nothing, which I would say meant almost everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heres my whole post. Please reread my first sentence. What I was saying was even with their great flying skills they were very lucky to survive the war. Almost every book I've read on these pilots, each one had multiple situations were they survived on pure luck. Read Stanford Tucks book for an example.

"Every Ace in WW2 usually were very good pilots, good situational awareness, exceptional eyesight, and marksmen.

'BUT' the most important thing they all had in common was "LUCK". You had to have that in huge quantities to survive that kind of combat.

Most the pilots that survived the War had 'nine lives'."

Rammjaeger
11-07-2007, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Wepps:
1 - What did the Luftwaffe know that I don't know?

2 - Maybe it's just a completely different level of danger in the game than it was in reality.

If it isn't '2', then I just don't see how it was possible to survive Hartmann-style.

Maybe it's the fact that there is no possible way to surprise the AI?
/shrug

Easy question IMO. As it has been noted, most campaigns are designed in a way to throw you into combat everytime you depart on a mission. This is completely unrealistic.

Second, AI pilots see through clouds and the airframe of their craft, BUT they also expend ammunition like mad and - this is the most important - fight with suicidal determination and routinely take an insane amount of risks.

In contrast, real-life fighter pilots were usually calculating and only took risks when necessary, didn't engage the enemy when in numerical/altitude disadvantage.

These are the reasons why air combat in this sim usually degenerates into all-out slaughter and relentless fight to the death, which was, most of the time, unheard of in WW2.

SeaFireLIV
11-07-2007, 01:17 PM
Well, the AI is actually pretty good in many places. A couple of myths i`d like to debunk..

AI WILL disengage in a battle sometimes, usually when they are down to 1 or 2 aircraft versus 4 or more. To be honest though, they do often attack in a disadvantaged situation, waiting until nearly decimated before going. I guess it`s too much to ask for AI that can think ahead of a potential combat situation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

They do chase a lot at times a most difficult situation when in an I16 trying to escape victorious 109s, even all the way over the airfield. But sometimes they`ll suddenly break away and leave for no apparent reason. I haven`t figured out exactly why yet. Low fuel? Airfield close?

AI are very challenging when you have 4 or more of them, even just 2 if you only have a wingman. AI actually WORKS TOGETHER. If 4 or more they will not all follow you in a queue, but pairs will attack from the 4 corners of the compass. You might be tracking 2, then get p`ked by a head-on or a deflection shot you were too busy to see. Even if only 2 AI enemy fighters they will often use the trick of getting you to follow one, while the other gets a target on you until he is in range. Even if he`s not in range, if you shoot at the bogey ahead, the one behind will immediately shoot to try and hit you or put you off!

Hoatee
11-07-2007, 01:44 PM
Yet even more important than the most important is the fact that the UberQuickMissionGenerator can alter ai behaviour (to the tune of rtb over killing, for example).

slipBall
11-07-2007, 01:44 PM
I find that your location and speed is the most important factor....and whether or not you were surprised, or had a heads up first

Deadmeat313
11-07-2007, 02:09 PM
I've started another(!) DCG campaign as VVS in the Crimea 1941, and staying alive is not easy. I'm in a Yak-1 squadron. Second mission in we were tasked to fly a sweep over the LW's main airfield. We got the drop on some Ju-88s who tried to pass beneath us, but the bombers had escorts and they were on us in no time.

As I wreck one engine of an 88, I am hit from behind and immediately maneuver to escape. I take hits to the canopy and instrument panel. I can see holes in my port wing, and - more ominously - my engine starts to splutter.

By this point I'm already running for friendly lines, screaming for help on RT. My comrades buy me the time to escape and crashland on the correct side of the front lines, but they bought it with their lives.

My squadron is entirely made up of green pilots. One or two of them had been on a sortie or two previously. The Luftwaffe Bf-109F drivers are veterans - if not aces. My only contribution to the dogfight was to make them use some of their limited cannon ammo supply. Nevertheless, they took apart the three Yaks with consummate ease.

When the last one is down, the 109s turn back in my direction. I'm still in the cockpit, wondering if I can at least salvage the plane, or should I run for it? The enemy fighters get to within a couple of miles of me, then lazily turn back towards their own airfield.

I stayed with my plane, but it was written off nontheless once the mission was over. At least the Ju-88 I'd hit was later reported as killed.

The following mission: We were ordered to fly topcover over Simferopol airbase. I went up with three more rookies. We circled over the airbase keeping watch as LW Ju-87s, He-111s - and their invincible escorts - fanned out from their main base (gotta love DCG for the real-time war) and headed for their targets. None came our way, and we landed without incident.

Some might have called that mission boring, but I knew that these chaps could at least claim to have one completed sortie under their belts. The next one will probably not be so easy.

This game is tough when you don't want to die.

T.

Divine-Wind
11-07-2007, 02:13 PM
Yeah. It's stuff like that that keeps my interest in the offline world. I've never flown a co-op (At least not seriously) or an online war, but I've always wondered what it'd be like to know your wingman was actually looking out for you.

SeaFireLIV
11-07-2007, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Deadmeat313:
I've started another(!) DCG campaign as VVS in the Crimea 1941, and staying alive is not easy. I'm in a Yak-1 squadron. Second mission in we were tasked to fly a sweep over the LW's main airfield. We got the drop on some Ju-88s who tried to pass beneath us, but the bombers had escorts and they were on us in no time.

As I wreck one engine of an 88, I am hit from behind and immediately maneuver to escape. I take hits to the canopy and instrument panel. I can see holes in my port wing, and - more ominously - my engine starts to splutter.

By this point I'm already running for friendly lines, screaming for help on RT. My comrades buy me the time to escape and crashland on the correct side of the front lines, but they bought it with their lives.

My squadron is entirely made up of green pilots. One or two of them had been on a sortie or two previously. The Luftwaffe Bf-109F drivers are veterans - if not aces. My only contribution to the dogfight was to make them use some of their limited cannon ammo supply. Nevertheless, they took apart the three Yaks with consummate ease.

When the last one is down, the 109s turn back in my direction. I'm still in the cockpit, wondering if I can at least salvage the plane, or should I run for it? The enemy fighters get to within a couple of miles of me, then lazily turn back towards their own airfield.

I stayed with my plane, but it was written off nontheless once the mission was over. At least the Ju-88 I'd hit was later reported as killed.

The following mission: We were ordered to fly topcover over Simferopol airbase. I went up with three more rookies. We circled over the airbase keeping watch as LW Ju-87s, He-111s - and their invincible escorts - fanned out from their main base (gotta love DCG for the real-time war) and headed for their targets. None came our way, and we landed without incident.

Some might have called that mission boring, but I knew that these chaps could at least claim to have one completed sortie under their belts. The next one will probably not be so easy.

This game is tough when you don't want to die.

T.

Yea, this is almost exactly how my missions run in DCG as an I16 fighter pilot. I give the Jerries the advantage since they had that at the start of the war and as a russian pilot you`re lucky to get back alive and you`re AI wingmen usually never do. It`s very hard, but I like it cos it goes with the real-life accounts of the time. As VVS you don`t expect to return home. I`m sure that pure luck had a big facter in survivability at that time (and running away a lot).

It must be sweet for the guys that do LW at this point of the war in DCG.

spiffyscimitar
11-07-2007, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by spiffyscimitar:
I notice that pretty much any time you describe how you die, it was to bomber/AA fire. It's common knowledge the gunner/AA fire in IL2 is way, way too accurate and unforgiving.

And yes, isn't curious how AI planes seem to have a proximity detector and peel off JUST before you reach optimal firing range? heh. Hopefully these issues will be resolved in SoW. Here we go again!! It's easy to hit planes with defensive guns!! I do it all the time and I'm generally better than the AI is!!
If they were inaccurate and over-modeled, then why am I a better shot than they are?!?!? Also, they are supposed to be unforgiving!! If you were a bomber gunner than wouldn't you be unforgiving?? Your job is to protect the bomber so you and your fellow crew can survive the mission. So if anything, they should have made the gunners in the sim more accurate.

And lastly, I can now after years of practice, survive attacking any bomber in the game. Althought attacking a B-17 or 29 with a Zero is quite difficult to survive. Most other combinations are suvivable. Just have to get good at what you're doing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe, maybe not. Play a gunner in WOV:BoB2 and see how well you do. And yes, attacking a bomber in BoB2 from it's six will get you shot down as well, but even then they only get a few rounds out of a desperate spray on your plane if you're jinking at all. In IL2, even at oblique angles (I'm far from being a noob), a laser line hits me in the engine or pilot routinely. I can't tell you which is more realistic, but I know which one FEELS more realistic.

Phil_K
11-07-2007, 03:42 PM
The three things that most tend to kill me when I play offline are:

1. Greed
2. Impatience
3. Stupidity

The fourth biggest killer is frame-lag. AAA is fifth, and AI a distant sixth. In fact, I don't worry about enemy A/C at all unless I become really overwhelmed.

The main difference in war is the fear factor. I was recently reading about Coastal Command Mosquito and Beaufighter aircrews for my "Strike Wing" campaign (plug, plug) and it is interesting that they often successfully warded off Fw-190's and bf-109's by just firing the occasional cannon burst at them to show they knew they were there. I'm sure Luftwaffe aircrews did the same vis-a-vis the allies. It's this kind of respect/fear that can never be replicated in-game.

M_Gunz
11-07-2007, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Bottom line, the AI gunners in this sim are easy on us, it's just that we have a lot of unskillful
pilots among our ranks. The AI gunners are terrible shots overall. Too many people attacking from dead six, that's why they get killed and then whine.

They are poor at deflection shooting unless you hold speed and course. Even then they take a
few seconds before shooting.

I had read from Hartmann about attacking planes. He wrote to come in off to the side, approach
a point off one wing and not the target directly at much greater speed almost as if you are
flying past it. Last second, from off and behind a wingtip you make a hard turn into the target
and hit the trigger while continuing to pull through and exit behind the target.

I've worked at that in 3 sims and it becomes a matter of timing not aiming to make the shots.
Lots of collisions getting speed and distances right, it's very hard with small view angle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's the off-side high-low bomber attack strategy and the head-on blast cockpit strategy.

With the release of Aces, IIRC there are tracks on the disk that show attacking bombers without
losses -- TRACKS showing it is done and how and STILL the trueism about the gunners is posted.

Wepps
11-07-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:


And none of what you wrote about following rules and somehow always making it...
WOW that's unreal when you talk about war so you're expecting a game right?
You do get sent on pointless missions, at least pointless to you. That's real.
Who gets through and who does not, excellence only helps and sometimes counts for little.

You shouldn't expect so much out of Offline anyway. Have you tried Lowengrin's DGEN though?

Actually, I don't recall saying I expected to get through every time, but instead that I'd like to get through the campaign ONCE.

As to DGEN I have no idea what that is.

Wepps
11-07-2007, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Deadmeat313:
I've started another(!) DCG campaign as VVS in the Crimea 1941, and staying alive is not easy. I'm in a Yak-1 squadron. Second mission in we were tasked to fly a sweep over the LW's main airfield. We got the drop on some Ju-88s who tried to pass beneath us, but the bombers had escorts and they were on us in no time.

As I wreck one engine of an 88, I am hit from behind and immediately maneuver to escape. I take hits to the canopy and instrument panel. I can see holes in my port wing, and - more ominously - my engine starts to splutter.

By this point I'm already running for friendly lines, screaming for help on RT. My comrades buy me the time to escape and crashland on the correct side of the front lines, but they bought it with their lives.

And another thing. There were no transmitters on soviet aircraft in '41.

SeaFireLIV
11-07-2007, 06:09 PM
There were transmitters on many Russian aircraft in `41, they just didn`t work very well.

To get through an entire campaign alive you must approach it seriously as I already outlined above. M_Gunz is pretty correct in general. Most missions seemed pointless to most pilots, especially to the Russians in those early years... Some even were, being just an attempt to stem the onslaught. I`ve read accounts with one saying that the crew felt like they were dead men waiting to fly.

Of course, some survived to fly the whole campaign, but you must look at how they survived. It was no game to them.

Wepps
11-08-2007, 01:03 PM
I do, in fact, play the game from that perspective seafire. I'm a big proponent of immersion.

But like in the current campaign, I've been flying a month and had 20 kills under my belt for the F-2. Soon as we got the F-4, mission was to jabo a soviet airfield, which immediately boosted me to the top of the kill roster for the staffel. This is mainly because I bagged 3 quick kills on that mission and didn't die like the rest of the staffel did. This made me second in command, and top scorer. The new commander has 5 kills.

In TIME, many of the old great fighter pilots of the Luftwaffe earned their true angel wings, but IN TIME. Not losing the entire command staff to ground fire, rear gunners, and flying into mountain sides...in a month's time.

The names in my staffel are already unrecognizable, after 25 missions.

/shrug

Not immersive imo, because it lacks realistic results. I still think I pretty much outlined those reasons clearly enough.

Not that I won't come home in 2 hours, take a nap then NOT fire up IL-2 lol.

stathem
11-08-2007, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Phil_K:
I was recently reading about Coastal Command Mosquito and Beaufighter aircrews for my "Strike Wing" campaign (plug, plug)

Is it available yet?

Is it on Norway?

Deadmeat313
11-09-2007, 06:13 AM
I try to get around the whole "airbase attack suicide" problem by starting a campaign as squadron leader (obviously with some serious political connections to have such a prestigious rank with no sorties flown http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

I'm flying an Il-2 Stalingrad campaign at the minute, and I keep my crew on a very short leash. Often I'll limit the attack to one swift pass over the base ("attack flak!") and if the place still looks dangerous, head home.

Sometimes I'll disregard the mission target and go blow something else up - especially if my superiors are asking me to take my team and attack a heavily defended base far behind enemy lines.

I've taken some casualties so far, but far fewer than I've experienced through AI leadership.

T.