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jensenpark
08-29-2007, 10:05 PM
has his WW2 series made it to air yet?

I assume it will be on PBS?

If it is anything like his Civil War series, it should be a "don't miss"

leitmotiv
08-29-2007, 10:40 PM
You mean if it is anything like his baseball and jazz pseudo documentaries it will be a "must miss."

Starts Sunday, September 23 on PBS.

Burns is an airhead stylist, not a doc maker.

xTHRUDx
08-30-2007, 12:21 AM
they had to recut the the War doc because it didn't have any stories about soldiers of latin descent after they sent out the preview copies to critics who complained about the lack of stories about them.

MrMojok
08-30-2007, 12:23 AM
I thought the *entire thing* was about latin american soldiers in WWII?

Waldo.Pepper
08-30-2007, 01:08 AM
I liked Baseball and Jazz. About the only thing I don't like about Ken Burns it his #3 bowl haircut.

nickdanger3
08-30-2007, 01:30 AM
I like his work.

I think that he boils things down to race too much perhaps (though he had the latino soldiers issue forced upon him) but I can honestly say that watching Jazz gave me a great intro to a music that I never could really get into. Now I actually listen to jazz.

Civil War was awesome.

Bearcat99
08-30-2007, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
they had to recut the the War doc because it didn't have any stories about soldiers of latin descent after they sent out the preview copies to critics who complained about the lack of stories about them.

That is something that history in general does... especially American history. Bear in mind that when the 101st was doing it's thing in Bastonge the 761st was right there with them... they were one of the tank battalions supporting them.. but you never hear about these guys. They were AWESOME... and they are eliminated from most of the stories about the war. Kareem Abdul Jabbar wrote a book entitiled "Brothers in Artms" (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1908299).. the rumor mill has it that he and Morgan Freeman are looking to make this a movie.. I sure hope so... Even now if you Google Brohters in Arms you wont find a reference to that book until page 3.

There are links to a bunch of that stuff (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat/links.html) on the old 332nd Geocities site.... I am in the process of updating our site so that one will soon be shut down....


You mean if it is anything like his baseball and jazz pseudo documentaries it will be a "must miss."


I dont think it was made for hardcore Jazz fans.. although some of them they could appreciate it..I think it was made more for people who werent aware of the rich history of the music.




Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I liked Baseball and Jazz.

Me too.. and I really don t like baseball.. I can take it or leave it.. but the series was good.



Originally posted by nickdanger3:
I like his work.
I think that he boils things down to race too much perhaps (though he had the latino soldiers issue forced upon him) but I can honestly say that watching Jazz gave me a great intro to a music that I never could really get into. Now I actually listen to jazz.
Civil War was awesome.

I think that is because you have to if you are talking about American history in the 2oth century. How can you talk about just about anything as far as American history goes .. at least of the stuff Burns has done and NOT talk about race. It is almost impossible since it was such a strong issue back then (and still is to a large degree just more subtle and less brutal... no strange fruit.. at least not as a norm anymore... thank GOD).

I think that many folks who are not on the receiving end don't realize that the issue is still quite alive.. it just isn't as out there as it was.. cooler heads have prevailed so you don't have people doing some of the foolish things that were done like in Little Rock and in Boston with the busing issue in the 60s.. but racist attitudes still prevail and only time and teaching our kids will change that, and that wont be done with everyone.

Worf101
08-30-2007, 12:53 PM
Couldn't have said it any better myself Bossman. But Burns has a formula he tells a story or gives a history lesson by weaving it using the strands of individual lives. In his series on Jazz he used the lives of Ellington, Armstrong and Benny Goodman.

In Baseball he used the life and times of Jackie Robinson because it was such a seachange in the terms of Sport and Race Relations in America.

I've always enjoyed Ken Burn's stuff and own the Civil War and the Baseball DVD collections.

Da Worfster

Xiolablu3
08-30-2007, 01:00 PM
Is it just the US contribution to WW2? Or does it include all ALlied nations?

Waldo.Pepper
08-30-2007, 01:53 PM
just the US

Forgive me but, I would have thought that this would be too obvious to ask.

Bearcat99
08-30-2007, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Is it just the US contribution to WW2? Or does it include all ALlied nations?

<sub>Tracing "the arc of the greatest cataclysm in the 20th century" is something that he's now six years into. Broken into seven episodes, the project is, he said, the story of four U.S. cities and how their citizens were involved in the war. </sub>

What does that matter?

ploughman
08-30-2007, 02:25 PM
Who is Ken Burns?

Xiolablu3
08-30-2007, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Is it just the US contribution to WW2? Or does it include all ALlied nations?

<sub>Tracing "the arc of the greatest cataclysm in the 20th century" is something that he's now six years into. Broken into seven episodes, the project is, he said, the story of four U.S. cities and how their citizens were involved in the war. </sub>

What does that matter? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No matter at all, mate. I was just wondering if it was a History of WW2 or just from the US point of view.

leitmotiv
08-30-2007, 02:40 PM
A friend of mine succinctly summed up Burns with "the big sunset lie"---pretty images---terrible history. My baseball experten friends were appalled by the endless idiotic factual and archive film errors he made in the baseball film. He made a celebrity out of the fifth-rate hack, Shelby Foote, who said Lincoln and Nathan Bedford Forrest---the Confederate general who executed black prisoners en masse and founded the KKK post-war---were the two greatest figures of the Civil War---indeed. As became apparent later, Foote had a little problem with blacks---he despised them; he even refused to be interviewed by a black reporter. Of course, all this would have been obvious to anybody who did a little background work on their interviewees. His jazz doc completely trivialized white jazz musicians. I recently read an interview with the sage Mr. Burns in NAVAL HISTORY where he condescended mightily to the interviewer, claimed to have specialist knowledge in naval history, and proceeded to demonstrate his manifest ignorance. Burns is pretty stylist airhead with an agenda. He is not a documentary filmmaker. To him history is an infinitely malleable substance to be used to fit his prejudices. I watched his jazz doc with my jaw agape. I'm sure I'll watch this exercise similarly.

nickdanger3
08-30-2007, 02:50 PM
@Bearcat

All I meant was that he often uses his topics as a lens to look at race relations in American history. As the director, that's his call.

For the Civil War, you have to. Absolutely. It was central to the conflict.

But personally for Jazz and Baseball I think it's less so.

Don't for a second think that I'm saying that a certain race did or did not contribute to jazz or baseball.

I just meant that the center of those two stories is not primarily one of race relations. IMHO. Jackie Robinson excepted of course.


I still thought the two series were fantastic.

And like you said, Jazz was aimed at the non-expert (me) and it did it's job wonderfully. Now I can ID Sidney Bechet just by ear !

Bearcat99
08-30-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by nickdanger3:
@Bearcat

All I meant was that he often uses his topics as a lens to look at race relations in American history. As the director, that's his call.

For the Civil War, you have to. Absolutely. It was central to the conflict.

But personally for Jazz and Baseball I think it's less so.

Don't for a second think that I'm saying that a certain race did or did not contribute to jazz or baseball.

I just meant that the center of those two stories is not primarily one of race relations. IMHO. Jackie Robinson excepted of course.


I still thought the two series were fantastic.

And like you said, Jazz was aimed at the non-expert (me) and it did it's job wonderfully. Now I can ID Sidney Bechet just by ear !

NP.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif I didn't take it that way.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif But when you consider the origins of Jazz... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jazz was the hip hop of it's day... it evolved into what we saw in the 50s and on.. but in it's early years... it was more like improisational blues with horns.

As for baseball... any history of baseball without mention of The Negro Leagues... or the wartime leagues either for that matter is IMO incomplete... Any history of the U.S. would have to have a great deal of focus on race because it was such an important topic in this country... and black folk contributed so much more to this country than most realize.. and because it was swept under the rug for o=so long it often looks like it is getting too much focus.. when in reality it is just getting what it always deserved. Thats all I am saying.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

nickdanger3
08-30-2007, 03:49 PM
Absolutely !
If you are gonna do the history of jazz it's mostly gonna be about black musicians. Jazz was (and is) certainly a black art form.

I guess it's like the coverage of the Michael Vick fiasco. The press keeps asking questions like "What does this say about black athletes?" which is ridiculous.

They should probably be asking "What does this say about professional athletes?".

When that white pitcher died in a car crash because he was drunk, nobody said "what does this say about white athletes....?"

But anyway, we both liked his documentaries, he makes an effort to tell the stories that are often neglected (a central role of a good historian/documentarian), and the WWII series will undoubtedly be great too.

Xiolablu3
08-30-2007, 03:54 PM
I liked his 'Civil War' doc.

I havent seen any of the others.

Bearcat99
08-30-2007, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by nickdanger3:
Absolutely !
If you are gonna do the history of jazz it's mostly gonna be about black musicians. Jazz was (and is) certainly a black art form.

I guess it's like the coverage of the Michael Vick fiasco. The press keeps asking questions like "What does this say about black athletes?" which is ridiculous.

They should probably be asking "What does this say about professional athletes?".

When that white pitcher died in a car crash because he was drunk, nobody said "what does this say about white athletes....?"

But anyway, we both liked his documentaries, he makes an effort to tell the stories that are often neglected (a central role of a good historian/documentarian), and the WWII series will undoubtedly be great too.

Well that is a reflection of that systemic thing that I was talking about.... all we can do really is teach our kids... and the best way to do that is by example... you can talk all the open minded (Not you personally... since I dont know you or what you are about..) stuff you like.. but your kids will watch who comes to your house..... and if a person says things like "racism is bad.. etc.." and they don't have any friends of color.... their kids will notice. We now have the power to place the power in the hands of our kids.. and maybe in a few more generations all this will be gone.

nickdanger3
08-30-2007, 09:59 PM
Well, living in Hawaii is a good start for my kids - EVERYBODY is a minority here ! And my kids are all mixed up - Japanese, Chinese, Hawaiian and Irish. Though I must say that in order for Hawaii to be really mixed we need a lot more latino and black residents.

Anyway, I did take a look at Shelby Foote and charges of racism, and what more established historians thought of Burns' work, and for the most part Foote seems pretty much well respected and Burn, while a popularizer, and thus somebody who isn't gonna be 100% respected by all credentialed historians, his work is not dismissed out of hand.

I think that Burns is a little like Michael Moore - you either love him or hate him.

@leitmotiv - do you have some things I can read about Foote and Burns?

jensenpark
08-30-2007, 11:00 PM
Have never seen any of his stuff apart from the Civil War - so can't comment on it - but appears his other stuff is a bit 'controversial'.

Liked the civil war one because (I recall from the ones I watched) he concentrated a lot on the letters home. Again from memory of a long time ago it was viewed - It seemed a big focus from Burns that the US Civil war was the first one that yielded up so much still existing correspondence of those affected - whether troops, or family.

From some of the comments posted here though, it may be time to find a copy and watch it again.

Bearcat99
08-31-2007, 05:37 AM
Yeah I liked that too.. in fact do you guys remember the two Wyatt Earp movies that came out a while back? One was more.... "papy" the one with Kurt Russel & Val "I'm your Huckleberry" Kilmer... The other had Kevin Costner as Earp.. I preferred the one with Costner... and one of the reasons why was the dialog... I noticed after seeing The Civil War.. that the dialog was written more in the vernacular of the day.. and that added a certain something to that version for me that just made it more appealing. It was the same thing with "Open Range".. with Costner & Duval & "Dances With Wolves".. but it was Ken Burns' series that kind of took us back to the day so to speak and helped to show the subtle differences in what just 100+ years can do to the way that people speak.

nickdanger3
08-31-2007, 11:45 AM
And how much better they could write than we do now!

Sullivan Ballou's letter to his wife was one of the most moving things I've ever heard:

http://www.sullivanballou.info/letter_2.html