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View Full Version : News from Paccus, maker of the first hydraulic-FFB joystick



Engadin
01-12-2011, 04:40 AM
Hi all,

as you already know, Paccus is the first company involved in the design and production of the first hydraulic-forcefeedback joystick for the simmer's world:

http://www.paccus.com/Hawk30.jpg

I have just received an e-mail from a member of the Paccus (http://www.paccus.com/) team, with positive great news:


Currently we are struggling
to get funding to start production. If all goes well, we should be
setting up everything in the coming months. We hope to be able to ship
the first units around the summer. In addition we also work on a modular
stick unit which people could build in into their own configuration.
This unit will have a USB hub, so you will be able to mount any grip you
would like and connect it to the hub. Also a modular throttle unit will
become available during this year. In the future we will work on a yoke
and pedals as well.

If you search in their web, you can find they have in mind a device that some of us have been missing so far: a forcefeedback pair of pedals.

Funding is a fierce daily struggle - furthermore in these days - but the goal to achieve is an innovative way of feeling the aerodynamic forces on our joystick and - fingers crossing - pedals. Besides, testing with RL pilots have revealed the hydraulic feeling seems much closer to the real thing than the one provided by electric motors in present FFB joysticks.

So, GO PACCUS, GO! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Engadin.

K_Freddie
01-12-2011, 06:40 AM
A nice idea, and besides it looking like some space age *****, they seem not to have put might thought into the design features

1) The button layout is impracticle
2) Imagine having to put a Kg or 2 of force into the stick - I don't think that stick, as it stands, will sit still on my desk - it needs stability/secure mounts.

My impression is they are amateurs in this game, and this product will have to mature before it becomes usable.
Why should they receive funding for development, this one beats me ?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Engadin
01-12-2011, 07:33 AM
Yes, the joy has an undeniable trekky look, but I guess that if they are aiming to the air combat sim world they'll have to do something about it.

Nevertheless, as for me at least, the look of the device should be the last in the list of their worries now. You can change at any moment in any place the buttons arrangement a thousand times easier than any of the features involved in the hydraulic forcefeedback mechanism, for example, which will make this joy unique in its category. The one and only.

Buttons and ways to lock it to your desk are important, of course. They are part of the inmersion and ergonomic features, but a liquid moving around the whole mechanisms inside the joy, that must be a real nightmare to handle and make work in a way nobody has done before. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And about funding, OMG, funding. So far, AFAIK none of the following tasks are for free in the market, supposing all the designing work has been done:

getting a work-shop, producing molds for the plastic and metal parts, producing the parts with that molds, all the PCB electric circuitry, all the hydraulic piping, mounting all the parts together, all the FFB and general response testing with different O.S. and sims, all the mechanical, ergonomic, electrical and hydraulics adjustments to fit the design to reality. And let's imagine you get it work, making a looooong history very short. Then you have to produce a batch of pre-production units to show in fairs and hand over to testers outside the company, to get a feedback. Now you make market research to get a fine price for your product. Now you need to get your firm started, if it wasn´t already. Get all the papers done from your local administration, economic authorities documentation and many other nice paper thingies waiting to take your money away. Was that all? NO. Even the best ideas won´t sell for themselves. You've got to get them to the market - web design, newspapers and magazines advertisement, contacts with sim webs like this one, purchasing ad spaces in webs like this one, visiting potential prescriptors - guys that can advice their readers to buy the joy - and seduce them - not in that way, you dirty brain -, travelling abroad, etc. - and hope your target public buys your idea. And if we say 'Yes, I like it', how many of the pre-production batch are left? Can we face the initial demand properly or will need to hurrily produce more?.

So far you haven´t earned a single cent, you have only paid, euro after euro. Funding? It's all about funding, mate. Unless you have red phone's direct line with uncle Gates, Bill gates.

Sorry for the brick but couldn´t help it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Engadin.

TheGrunch
01-12-2011, 07:36 AM
In addition we also work on a modular
stick unit which people could build in into their own configuration.
This unit will have a USB hub, so you will be able to mount any grip you
would like and connect it to the hub.
I very much like the sound of this part! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Engadin
01-12-2011, 08:42 AM
Even more innovative and astounding news have just arrived from the Paccus team:


Some of the questions that
arise i can address. First of all for the die-hards, the model can be
fixed to your desk by an M8 bolt, so nothing will move. For the overall
design we chose for a neutral non military look. It is suitable for both
left and right handed people, and the button lay-out is exactly pitched
like a key-board, but at an angle so you can comfortably use it with
either left or right hand. In addition for those who would like a more
military look or anything else, we will have the hydraulic core
available as a stand alone module, with a USB hub, so you can mount any
grip and combine it with any keyboard you would like. The modular unit
will come in a side-stick version as well as a floor mounted one for
long sticks. The long stick will have a lot of power so it will be able
to get close to reality. Thanks again for the good work and i hope to
see you somewhere in the future.


The first makers that have at sight the fabrication of long sticks with enough power to feel like the real thing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif My wildest dreams about to come true. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Engadin

Engadin
05-11-2011, 04:31 PM
Some fresh news about the Paccus hydraulic joystick. For those living at or travelling to the UK on 14th&15th May you'll have a chance so see face to face Paccus' Hawk joystick.

It will show up at UK's biggest flightsim week-end at Helicopter Museum, Weston Super Mare.

This is the announcement from the PAccus team:

"Dear pilot,

Do you remember we were working on realistic force feedback for your flightsims and games?

Not the kind of tickling in your hand, but a real force.
Not a faint feeling but realistic power.
Not some plastic toy but a solid aluminium stick.

Imagine how your flightsim experience changes if you can feel the wind on your ailerons and elevator.
Can you imagine how your shooter game experience changes if you feel the recoil like it's real?

It took time to create this perfect experience in a high quality and durable joystick.
And it is available very soon in a limited edition!

This weekend you can try the hydraulic force feedback at the UK's biggest flight sim weekend in Weston-super-Mare (near Bristol).
Check http://fscweston.co.uk for all details.

Next week we'll send you an impression of this event so keep an eye on your mailbox.

If you want to be sure you'll have your own Hawk within weeks, just send us an e-mail and you can be the first on our list.

with kind regards from the Paccus-team,
Ariella Bijl
www.paccus.com (http://www.paccus.com)

P.S.: Share this e-mail with your friends so they too can benefit from this unique opportunity!

Paccus Joysticks - fast, precise and durable."

Looks like this piece of HW is closer than ever to get to the market, finally.

Engadin.

Luno13
05-11-2011, 06:54 PM
I sure could appreciate a floor mounted stick. Unfortunately, I don't have the budget for something like that at this time. I hope it becomes popular enough to allow the team to continue its development.

Messaschnitzel
05-12-2011, 06:54 PM
From what I read on the Paccus website, I understand that they'll be having a demo model there for folks to try out. Have they released any actual photos anywhere of maybe the basic working model stick besides the conceptual CAD images they have on their site? Not a lot of info to go on. They need to get more up there for folks to view and read in order for them to get more interested.

Also, the chances if they do manage to convince someone to fund them for an original production prototype, and then a certain number of test units for outside evaluation and publicity to be built, and then on the strength of the hopefully positive reviews go on to find a producer already in business who can quickly get the ball rolling is remote since Paccus got no money of their own to play with.

One thing I can tell you is that if the unit going to be contructed using a lot of aluminum, it's going to be expensive. Looking at the grip, it'll probably be die cast in two pieces given it's shape. (I see there a seam on the CAD image, so they might've already taken that into consideration) I think that Paccus, even if they are successful in getting folks interested isn't going to see a whole lot of money out of this deal because any company or investors that gets involved with this project is going to have to outlay from the get go a good bit of money towards what is merely another business deal in practical terms. In other words, since they're the ones paying the bills, they'll make damn sure they get they money before Paccus get their cut.

Don't get me wrong, I hope they somehow manage to work this project through, but having seen this type of situation where an inventor has a great idea but no money a number of times in the past it causes me to think that it's not really going to get anywhere, unfortunately. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Edit: It appears the Paccus crew changed some stuff on the website. Instead of having a video of an image of the stick, it takes you directly to the purchasing page. I thought the stick would be expensive: €2,397.00 for the force feedback stick and €1,647.00 for the other one.

pupo162
05-13-2011, 04:21 AM
I thought the stick would be expensive: €2,397.00 for the force feedback stick and €1,647.00 for the other one.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

are they ever going to sell 1 unit !?

Tully__
05-13-2011, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by pupo162:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

are they ever going to sell 1 unit !?
Quitle likely when you look at the setups some civil aviation sim fans spend their money on:
http://www.google.com.au/searc...t&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= (http://www.google.com.au/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=896&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=home+built+flight+sim+cockpit&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)
Have a close look at a few of the pictures, there's one there with 7 computers networked to drive 13 monitors and some flat panel instrument simulators.

Engadin
05-13-2011, 08:03 AM
A clue about what is going on about the Hawk and Falcon 'jewelry' prices. In a february e-mail, Mr. Bart Sikkens, Paccus CEO, pointed out this:

"muchos gracias Gonzalo,

we will keep it in mind. In the mean time we work on a first exclusive series.

kind regards
Bart".

FIRST EXCLUSIVE SERIES.

I am afraid - and I would be very glad aswell - that's the point for those outrageously high prices.

I emailed him a few hours ago, asking for a confirmation on the price news. I'll tell you back as soon as he answers.

I mean they naturally want their joystick in the market in huge ammounts, if possible. The investment in development and world wide patents has been enormous. They do not want to throw all that effort away.

So marketing wise, what's the point for such heart-attack prices. To draw our attention on the more expensive joysticks in history, while we push our noses on the shop window, drooling, unable to reach for them?.

Let's give time to time. And if they remove some gold & diamonds here and there they'll provide us with a more user friendly priced joysticks.

Engadin.

x6BL_Brando
05-13-2011, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pupo162:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

are they ever going to sell 1 unit !?
Quitle likely when you look at the setups some civil aviation sim fans spend their money on:
http://www.google.com.au/searc...t&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= (http://www.google.com.au/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=896&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=home+built+flight+sim+cockpit&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)
Have a close look at a few of the pictures, there's one there with 7 computers networked to drive 13 monitors and some flat panel instrument simulators. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TBH, with some of the pits on show here I think it's far more likely that they would build there own system if the idea takes hold. It'll be an uphill battle for Paccus to sell the Hawk when it's only selling point is hydraulic FFB. IMO the stick and base is an art exercise rather than an ergonomic one. Can you imagine how chrome-plastic buttons are going to function in the throes of a dogfight? Or how much grip you'll get from a handle of the same material?

A classic case of 'style over function'. Sad.

Engadin
05-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
It'll be an uphill battle for Paccus to sell the Hawk when it's only selling point is hydraulic FFB.

It's not only the FFB hydraulic feeling but general actuation of the joy. Remember the Falcon is not a FFB joy being hydraulic as well. There is a sensible diference between an electric motors actuated joy and a hydraulic actuated one. Based on RL pilots opinions, the later is closer to the real thing. The hydraulic provides a 'softness' that replicates more closely the sensation of the air pushing on the control surfaces of the classical cable-actuated type.

Engadin.

Engadin
05-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Engadin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
It'll be an uphill battle for Paccus to sell the Hawk when it's only selling point is hydraulic FFB.

It's not only the FFB hydraulic feeling but general actuation of the joy. Remember the Falcon is not a FFB joy being hydraulic as well. There is a sensible diference between an electric motors actuated joy and a hydraulic actuated one. Based on RL pilots opinions, the later is closer to the real thing. The hydraulic provides a 'softness' that replicates more closely the sensation of the air pushing on control surfaces of the classical cable-actuated type.

Engadin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Engadin
05-13-2011, 08:00 PM
Somehow good news: the confirmation of the exclusivity of this first batch of joysticks from Paccus. If you visit Paccus web (http://www.paccus.com/)
you can read just above the price "The first exclusive, numbered series of Hawks/Falcons will be ready for shipping by June 2011". Maybe that is the reason for such pricing policy.

The clouds over the horizon are moving away, by now. Hope they do not have to come back afterwards.

Engadin.

P.S. Some additional info regarding the special features of these exclusive series included in the FAQs (http://www.paccus.com/forcefeedbackjoystickfaq) section of the Paccus web.

Messaschnitzel
05-14-2011, 05:08 PM
Hey Engadin, as far as I know you've probably done more to advertise the Paccus sticks than Paccus themselves. I hope they paying you for this, or at least give you one of the sticks as compensation. Since Paccus seems to be responding to the responses here on the Ubi forum as well as the identical thread over at Simhq with updates on their website, I'll address them here directly:

You really needs to get someone with professional marketing experience on your team. I saw the two videos you have on Youtube, and they didn't address anything having to do with actual gameplay. If you at least have available a functioning unit as you have currently displayed that can be used while playing a flight sim, Then I suggest you might do so ASAP. (maybe you can hire Erik Estrada to read a teleprompter while the camera focuses away to one of your team demonstrating the effects of the stick while playing IL2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif) Again, you need to start showing the stick itself in use doing its hydraulic FFB thing in reaction to the gameplay, otherwise nobody going to think about buying this toy without seeing somebody else demonstrating it. Also, my guess is most folks are going to wait for somebody else to make the first move to buy and report before shelling out that kind of money.

Hey, one thing I noticed is the reponses here with the same thread topic on the Ubi forum are a lot more polite than the responses over at Simhq. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Sokol__1
05-14-2011, 06:02 PM
Perfect stick to use with this rudder pedal:

http://www.simw.com/jet-rudder-control-module.html

Sokol1

Engadin
05-16-2011, 04:13 AM
Hi Messaschnitzel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I admit it may sound like that, but ..... a big NO, mate. Unfortunately, given it's outrageous price I doubt they are going to give me one for free at all in any case. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif. It seems there will be a special offer after the Warton event, but so far no news.

You know, all I am is a frustrated G940 ex-owner to substitute my aging FFB2. Besides, I am an inconditional FFB fan for more than ten years. All this lead me to put high hopes on this new product and its Windows 7 updated software for features, button assignation and forces management. I contacted the nice people at Paccus and have simply kept that contact alive so far. And without noticing I became a fan of their hydraulic joy.

Maybe I am a fan, too, of innovative solutions and Hawk certainly is one of them, at least under my POV. Perhaps I have taken it, also, a bit personally, something I shouldn't have done as I have no relation at all with that firm, apart from getting informed via email after showing interest in the Hawk. And I have got involved too far in a cascade of comments at some forums because there is a lot of adverse reaction to their pricing policy, including mine as it is way out of my 'range of fire'. And as you can guess this makes me a bit - if not quite - dissapointed after all these years following the proyect development.

I do share your thoughts marketing wise. There is too much room to improve that vital area in the launching of a new product. In addition, the video posted on saturday at the Paccus blog is all but encouraging, as the guy talking is a thousand miles from being enthusiatic about the joy. Another step not in the proper direction.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif You're also right about the simhq matter. The reaction by some members in that forum has gone simply negative, focusing only in the price and not realizing/reading it is supposed to be the 'overgrown' price of an 'exclusive serie'. Paccus fault? Surely. The fact is that yours is a sort of comment - polite I mean - not to be seen too often at that other forum in that particular thread.

Engadin.

BSR_RuGGBuTT
05-22-2011, 12:11 AM
If you're gonna build something with technology that isn't typical and charge that kind of money then don't make it as fugly as that stick is. I don't care how cool it performs, it's ghey as Easter (fuzzy bunnies, pastel colored eggs).