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woofiedog
03-03-2006, 10:37 PM
http://www.airpages.ru/img/bf109g2_1.jpg

Link: http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?nav=lw70&page=bf109g2

Midway through the war, new German fighters remained in the focus of the Soviet aviation command element. Moreover, there was the necessity to inform Stalin about the improved Messerschmitts. On 23 October 1942, Red Army Air Forces Chief Engineer A. K. Repin reported this to the Leader: "Recently, modified Bf 109F-4 and Bf 109G-2 fighters have appeared at the front. Based on information from line units, they have greater level and vertical speeds. According to the Red Army Main Intelligence Directorate, these aircraft can reach a speed of 625-650 km/h at an altitude of 6700 meters. I would kindly ask you to task the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry to do the following: by spring 1943, design and build a single-engine fighter with a speed on the order of 680-700 km/h at altitudes of 6000-7000 meters, maximum speed at ground level of 550-560 km/h, technical flight weight not exceeding 3300 kilograms, and with metal wings".
However, a captured Bf 109 had to be tested in order to know both the strong and weak points of the new fighter. Such was the task set before the institute leadership in late autumn 1942. Thus, as soon as the news about the I/JG3 Group Messerschmitt captured near Stalingrad was received, Captain A. G. Proshakov flew there at once. On 25 December, after simple repairs, he managed to fly the trophy to the institute repair shops. In early January 1943, Engineer-Captain A. S. Rozanov began examining Bf 109G-2 No. 13903.
The Institute's chief assigned the task to compare the German machine with the best Soviet experimental and series-produced fighters, above all, the Yak-1 Yak-7b, La-5, Yak-9, as well as the Yak-1 M-106 and N. N. Polikarpov's 1-185 The inspection showed that the new Messerschmitt differed from previoush examined Bf 109F-2 No. 9209 in its more powerful DB 605A engine, additiona underwing 20mm MG 151 cannon, armor-glass windshield, and 18mm Duralumin plate behind the fuel tank.
Test flights by seasoned test pilots like Colonel P. M. Stefanovskiy, Captain A. G. Proshakov, and Captain A. G. Kubyshkin demonstrated that it was hard for Soviet series-produced fighters to equal the Bf 109G Gustav in combat. The power plant on the German aircraft was more convenient to control, bu the view from the cockpit, especially to the rear, turned out to be much worse than that of, let's say, the Yak-9. Engineer-Lieutenant Colonel A. N. Frolov, Chiei of the Fighter Department, noted how painstakingly German designers anc engineers sealed the construction elements. Slots on control surfaces were reduced to a minimum, motor cowlings fitted tightly against the fuselage, ant: the fuselage had rubber gaskets.
Only the experimental I-185 fighter could compete with the Bf 109G-2 in rate of climb and only the MiG-3 could reach a service ceiling of 11,250 meters (the best series-produced examples could climb to 11,500 m). The Messerschmitt salvo weight was 4.67 kilograms per second.32 Underwing cannon considerabh reduced the horizontal maneuverability of the aircraft, which we called the "five-pointer". The German designation was Bf 109G-2/R6. It took the German fighter 22.6 seconds to complete a bank at an altitude of 1000 meters (similar to the series-produced La-5) and most Soviet fighters could perform a run-in from the rear during the second or third bank.
Aerial combat between the Bf 109G-2/R6 and La-5 was simulated at the Air Forces Scientific Research Institute. The Lavochkin had improved visibility and its weight was reduced by 160 kilograms. At low altitudes, it was flying with the M-82 engine in afterburner. Lieutenant Colonel N. I. Shaurov, who was evaluating the aircraft from the tactical point of view, came to the conclusion that the upgraded Soviet airplane could successfully counter the Messerschmitt at low and medium altitudes. He thought that its poor visibility to the rear and the danger of involuntary entry into a spin when the stick was overbalanced during a bank gave the La-5 an equal chance, even in vertical aerial combat. In a prolonged dive, the Bf 109G-2 was somewhat faster, but a Lavochkin recovering from a dive could overtake the German owing to a steeper trajectory.
Institute Chief General P. A. Losyukov in his report on testing the "five-pointer" Bf 109G-2 noted that the test results had to be disseminated to Red Army Air Forces line units. "In order to combat the new Messerschmitt successfully, there is an urgent necessity to use the TsAGI recommendations to improve the aerodynamics of domestic series-produced fighters and to accelerate production of Yak-1 and Yak-9 airplanes with the M-106 engine and the La-5 powered by the M-82 NV (with direct injection)," the general noted. Losyukov also drew the attention of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry leadership to the necessity to eliminate defects degrading the combat qualities of our fighters.
The test results had an impact on development of the domestic aircraft industry. The military wrote to People's Commissar Shakhurin, asking him:
1. In order to increase horizontal and vertical speeds of domestic fighters, oblige chief designers comrades Shvetsov, Klimov, and Mikulin to install hydraulically driven superchargers on M-71, M-82, M-106, M-107, AM-39, and AM-42 engines. Recommend use of an automatic hydraulic clutch control unit similar to the one on theDB605A/l.
2. "Free" the pilot from the requirement to constantly monitor the power plant temperature during aerial combat and oblige chief designers comrades Yakovlev and Lavochkin to design and install automatic devices regulating the position of radiator shutters and cowl flaps to reduce drag by using a more rational way to open the shutters regulating the temperature.

ReligiousZealot
03-03-2006, 11:47 PM
Cool post, always interested in the "behind the scenes data". Good find! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Enforcer572005
03-04-2006, 01:51 AM
I wonder what he meant by saying the engine was in afterburner......i can only suppose that he was refering to boost.

Stalin took a major interest in his aircraft and was quite well versed on them, despite his fear of flying.

And the plane in the photo looks more like an F to me, since i dont see any humps behind hte cowl guns....or was that not on this particular model of G? I have a hard time keeping up wiht all the subvariants. Neat post though.

GerritJ9
03-04-2006, 02:44 AM
The G-2 had two 7.9mm MGs above the engine- the bulges appeared on the models with 13mm MGs.
Wonder if the G-2 was also tested without the wing-mounted 20mm guns; they weren't always carried because of the effect their weight and drag had on climb, top speed and manoeuverability.

JG53Frankyboy
03-04-2006, 02:55 AM
yep, Bf109G-5 was the first variant with the bulges because of the improved armament - replacing MG17 with MG131.

TheGozr
03-04-2006, 04:29 AM
Well those are early tests, later on the G2 was totally outclassed by the new yak's generations as well of all 109's and Fw's ( + ~ altitudes )

Vipez-
03-04-2006, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Well those are early tests, later on the G2 was totally outclassed by the new yak's generations as well of all 109's and Fw's ( + ~ altitudes )

Like what? G2 remained a good fighter for long time, like it still was fully competent aircraft in Finnish airforce all the way in 1944.. G-2's disadvantages was offcourse limited armament (one cannon + two LMGs, though this was not a problem against fighters), and poor rear visibility.

woofiedog
03-04-2006, 04:39 AM
Another G-2

http://airwar.hihome.com/gwp/bf109/part3/gwp-109g-2-mud.jpg

Link: http://airwar.hihome.com/gwp/bf109/bf-109-3.htm

Xiolablu3
03-04-2006, 06:59 AM
This is one of the most exciting peroids in Air combat for me, and the La5 vs the 109G2 is a fantastic match up for a online map.

In the same league as

Spitfire MkV vs 109F4
Ki84/Zero Vs Spitfire 8/9
FW190D/109G10 vs Spitfire 8/9/Mustang.
P40/F4F Vs Zero (1942)

Hopefully we can add SPitfire MkI/MkII vs 109E3/E4 to this list http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BfHeFwMe
03-04-2006, 12:07 PM
Note how much they hedged their bets on the 'New' VK-106 engine, the engine that never could be. Soviet industry was simply incapable of producing such a complicated contemporary engine at that time. Didn't help that the cream of their engineers lay as bleached bones in Siberia either.

Badsight.
03-04-2006, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Well those are early tests, later on the G2 was totally outclassed by the new yak's generations as well of all 109's and Fw's ( + ~ altitudes ) prehaps you could post these "later on" test's your referring too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

btw Gozr - notice how Oleg Maddox is saying in that quote that he wont model the Yaks to the prototype trials planes , in FB they are based on service aircraft & perform correctly

La7_brook
03-04-2006, 01:40 PM
good too see u still keeping this forum honest badsight for both red and blue http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Ugly_Kid
03-04-2006, 01:49 PM
Well I don't consider G-2 with Gunpods anything like a match to La-5 in the game that is...

Xiolablu3
03-04-2006, 03:45 PM
You can see the cannons have been removed in the picture, but the bulges under the wings are still there. The La5 (not FN) and 109G2 in game are very very close match in my opinion.

He states the La5 is basically equal or superior at low and medium heights than the 109G2 with gunpods.

'Shaurov, who was evaluating the aircraft from the tactical point of view, came to the conclusion that the upgraded Soviet airplane could successfully counter the Messerschmitt at low and medium altitudes. He thought that its poor visibility to the rear

-- and the danger of involuntary entry into a spin when the stick was overbalanced during a bank -- (NB possibly due to the gunpods?) --

GAVE THE LA-5 AN EQUAL CHANCE EVEN IN VERTICAL AERIAL COMBAT. In a prolonged dive, the Bf 109G-2 was somewhat faster, but a Lavochkin recovering from a dive could overtake the German owing to a steeper trajectory.'


I read from this report that the Russians thought the La5 was superior to the 109G2 with gunpods at low and medium heights. I conclude from this that the 109G2 without gunpods would be a much closer matchup and better than the La5 in the vertical. The 109G2 even with gunpods could climb faster at most altitudes than the La5, so the 109G2 may be even better.

One thing I suspect is wrong in this game with regard to this matchup is that its very hard to counter the La5 in the vertical for me using the 109G2. If I loop over and over I cannot gain on him to get into a firing position. I usually find hes gaining on me. This would suggest that the 109G2 is not superior in the vertical in game to the La5. (Or maybe this is the wrong kind of test? I dont know)

Can anyone else offer input on their experiences with these 2 planes online??

Sintubin
03-04-2006, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by woofiedog:
http://www.airpages.ru/img/bf109g2_1.jpg

Link: http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?nav=lw70&page=bf109g2

Midway through the war, new German fighters remained in the focus of the Soviet aviation command element. Moreover, there was the necessity to inform Stalin about the improved Messerschmitts. On 23 October 1942, Red Army Air Forces Chief Engineer A. K. Repin reported this to the Leader: "Recently, modified Bf 109F-4 and Bf 109G-2 fighters have appeared at the front. Based on information from line units, they have greater level and vertical speeds. According to the Red Army Main Intelligence Directorate, these aircraft can reach a speed of 625-650 km/h at an altitude of 6700 meters. I would kindly ask you to task the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry to do the following: by spring 1943, design and build a single-engine fighter with a speed on the order of 680-700 km/h at altitudes of 6000-7000 meters, maximum speed at ground level of 550-560 km/h, technical flight weight not exceeding 3300 kilograms, and with metal wings".
However, a captured Bf 109 had to be tested in order to know both the strong and weak points of the new fighter. Such was the task set before the institute leadership in late autumn 1942. Thus, as soon as the news about the I/JG3 Group Messerschmitt captured near Stalingrad was received, Captain A. G. Proshakov flew there at once. On 25 December, after simple repairs, he managed to fly the trophy to the institute repair shops. In early January 1943, Engineer-Captain A. S. Rozanov began examining Bf 109G-2 No. 13903.
The Institute's chief assigned the task to compare the German machine with the best Soviet experimental and series-produced fighters, above all, the Yak-1 Yak-7b, La-5, Yak-9, as well as the Yak-1 M-106 and N. N. Polikarpov's 1-185 The inspection showed that the new Messerschmitt differed from previoush examined Bf 109F-2 No. 9209 in its more powerful DB 605A engine, additiona underwing 20mm MG 151 cannon, armor-glass windshield, and 18mm Duralumin plate behind the fuel tank.
Test flights by seasoned test pilots like Colonel P. M. Stefanovskiy, Captain A. G. Proshakov, and Captain A. G. Kubyshkin demonstrated that it was hard for Soviet series-produced fighters to equal the Bf 109G Gustav in combat. The power plant on the German aircraft was more convenient to control, bu the view from the cockpit, especially to the rear, turned out to be much worse than that of, let's say, the Yak-9. Engineer-Lieutenant Colonel A. N. Frolov, Chiei of the Fighter Department, noted how painstakingly German designers anc engineers sealed the construction elements. Slots on control surfaces were reduced to a minimum, motor cowlings fitted tightly against the fuselage, ant: the fuselage had rubber gaskets.
Only the experimental I-185 fighter could compete with the Bf 109G-2 in rate of climb and only the MiG-3 could reach a service ceiling of 11,250 meters (the best series-produced examples could climb to 11,500 m). The Messerschmitt salvo weight was 4.67 kilograms per second.32 Underwing cannon considerabh reduced the horizontal maneuverability of the aircraft, which we called the "five-pointer". The German designation was Bf 109G-2/R6. It took the German fighter 22.6 seconds to complete a bank at an altitude of 1000 meters (similar to the series-produced La-5) and most Soviet fighters could perform a run-in from the rear during the second or third bank.
Aerial combat between the Bf 109G-2/R6 and La-5 was simulated at the Air Forces Scientific Research Institute. The Lavochkin had improved visibility and its weight was reduced by 160 kilograms. At low altitudes, it was flying with the M-82 engine in afterburner. Lieutenant Colonel N. I. Shaurov, who was evaluating the aircraft from the tactical point of view, came to the conclusion that the upgraded Soviet airplane could successfully counter the Messerschmitt at low and medium altitudes. He thought that its poor visibility to the rear and the danger of involuntary entry into a spin when the stick was overbalanced during a bank gave the La-5 an equal chance, even in vertical aerial combat. In a prolonged dive, the Bf 109G-2 was somewhat faster, but a Lavochkin recovering from a dive could overtake the German owing to a steeper trajectory.
Institute Chief General P. A. Losyukov in his report on testing the "five-pointer" Bf 109G-2 noted that the test results had to be disseminated to Red Army Air Forces line units. "In order to combat the new Messerschmitt successfully, there is an urgent necessity to use the TsAGI recommendations to improve the aerodynamics of domestic series-produced fighters and to accelerate production of Yak-1 and Yak-9 airplanes with the M-106 engine and the La-5 powered by the M-82 NV (with direct injection)," the general noted. Losyukov also drew the attention of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry leadership to the necessity to eliminate defects degrading the combat qualities of our fighters.
The test results had an impact on development of the domestic aircraft industry. The military wrote to People's Commissar Shakhurin, asking him:
1. In order to increase horizontal and vertical speeds of domestic fighters, oblige chief designers comrades Shvetsov, Klimov, and Mikulin to install hydraulically driven superchargers on M-71, M-82, M-106, M-107, AM-39, and AM-42 engines. Recommend use of an automatic hydraulic clutch control unit similar to the one on theDB605A/l.
2. "Free" the pilot from the requirement to constantly monitor the power plant temperature during aerial combat and oblige chief designers comrades Yakovlev and Lavochkin to design and install automatic devices regulating the position of radiator shutters and cowl flaps to reduce drag by using a more rational way to open the shutters regulating the temperature.


hmm against BF 109 with GUNPODS

jjtasker
03-04-2006, 08:36 PM
Gunpods AND barrels are still there in that picture.. the barrels are just hard to pick out against the dark background..

mortoma
03-04-2006, 10:09 PM
Now we know what really initiated the development
of the Yak-3 and the LA-5FN/LA-7 series......That captured Messer was the catalyst. Or it sure was at least a big factor. If the dummies would have removed those gunpods, we may have seen the La-9 by the end of the war!!!

TheGozr
03-04-2006, 10:49 PM
Vipez- Yes true

Badsight
"FB they are based on service aircraft & perform correctly"

wich service aircraft? there are different models differents engine types of the same aircraft..

Is the G2 perform as the 1942 ? 1942 g2 had some troubles as well are they modeled ingame?

TheGozr
03-04-2006, 11:10 PM
Walter Wolfrum, a german ace who had flown the Bf-109G and scored 137 victories by the end of the war, noted:The best fighters that i have encountered in combat were the American P51 Mustang and the Russian Yak-9U. Both of these Types were clearly superior in their performance to all versions of the Bf-109, including 'K, The Mustang had unrivalled altitude performance, while the yak9U was a record-holder in rate of climb and manoeuvrability.

La7_brook
03-05-2006, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Walter Wolfrum, a german ace who had flown the Bf-109G and scored 137 victories by the end of the war, noted:The best fighters that i have encountered in combat were the American P51 Mustang and the Russian Yak-9U. Both of these Types were clearly superior in their performance to all versions of the Bf-109, including 'K, The Mustang had unrivalled altitude performance, while the yak9U was a record-holder in rate of climb and manoeuvrability. well guess he got all 137 ones he seen

carguy_
03-05-2006, 06:44 AM
Given that the current G2 is `43 rated the gunpods part is fairly well described in the game.If we had 1.31ata with pods however,things would be much worse against standard combat loaded La5.

Bottom line is...anyone who can handle Anton4 vs a Lavochkin can do far better in a gunpod equipped G2.

Jumoschwanz
03-05-2006, 07:25 AM
Lately I have been flying the 109g2 on some cockpit-on Russian servers against mostly the La-5 series, which has always been very popular in this sim since it came out.

In this sim any version of the La-5 is a match for the 109G2. I think the win goes to the pilot with the most experience and tricks up his sleeve.

If I get on the tail of an La-5 9 times out of ten he is toast, barring an intervention from his wingman or an error on my part.

If an La-5 pilot gets on my tail and he is a genuinely good pilot, he will shoot me down too.

In general combat online in dogfight servers though, I am not afraid to engage an La-5 series plane at all in ANY 109, mainly because over 90% of the time I can count on the pilot making an error, or just plain not being up to snuff. THis is not a characteristic of La-5 pilots alone, but the population of dogfight servers in general.

I do feel a good pilot in the La-5 can get an edge on a 109g2 if the 109 pilot tries to follow the La-5 in a sustained and level tight turn. I do think the La-5 has some advantage in an ability to turn tighter than a 109 with a good pilot on board.

I usually like to fly with gunpods on the 109g2, and have for years now, simply because tripling the planes firing effectiveness, I feel more than makes up for the degradation in speed and manueverability.

The 109g2 is not going to dominate the La-5 series even running without pods and a 25% fuel load, it is slower and will not out-turn it.
So the smart pilot will develop other ways to fight than trying to beat the La-5 at it's own game.
The average La-5 or even La-7 pilot in this sim is usually eager to turn fight, and I find often that they end up turning in front of my gunpods.

Here is a link to a great track that shows exactly what I am talking about, where although an La-5fn pilot attacks with an altitude advantage, his overeagerness to engage in turn-fighting loses his E advantage. Then he makes the mistake of repeatedly turning in front of my gunpods. Note how I never turn with the La-5fn, or try to match it's radius, but simply set-up a series of scissoring deflection shots.
http://rapidshare.de/files/14752047/quick0123.ntrk.html


This scenario is played over and over again online by overeager pilots who do not use their planes strength or their advantage in position, and I am glad, they make me look good!

Using the same technique, I have shot down many La-7s, Yak-3ps and other supposedly uber planes, with a 109E!

S!

Jumoschwanz

P.S. to use rapidshare, click on the link and then hit the "free" button, and the download will start in x number of seconds.....

Stafroty
03-05-2006, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGozr:
Well those are early tests, later on the G2 was totally outclassed by the new yak's generations as well of all 109's and Fw's ( + ~ altitudes )

Like what? G2 remained a good fighter for long time, like it still was fully competent aircraft in Finnish airforce all the way in 1944.. G-2's disadvantages was offcourse limited armament (one cannon + two LMGs, though this was not a problem against fighters), and poor rear visibility. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember Vipez. that Plane werent the only things that are needed for airwar. It also contains pilot skill, tactics and strategies, as well the communication between the pilots how they could cooperate together http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
03-05-2006, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Lately I have been flying the 109g2 on some cockpit-on Russian servers against mostly the La-5 series, which has always been very popular in this sim since it came out.

In this sim any version of the La-5 is a match for the 109G2. I think the win goes to the pilot with the most experience and tricks up his sleeve.

If I get on the tail of an La-5 9 times out of ten he is toast, barring an intervention from his wingman or an error on my part.

If an La-5 pilot gets on my tail and he is a genuinely good pilot, he will shoot me down too.

In general combat online in dogfight servers though, I am not afraid to engage an La-5 series plane at all in ANY 109, mainly because over 90% of the time I can count on the pilot making an error, or just plain not being up to snuff. THis is not a characteristic of La-5 pilots alone, but the population of dogfight servers in general.

I do feel a good pilot in the La-5 can get an edge on a 109g2 if the 109 pilot tries to follow the La-5 in a sustained and level tight turn. I do think the La-5 has some advantage in an ability to turn tighter than a 109 with a good pilot on board.

I usually like to fly with gunpods on the 109g2, and have for years now, simply because tripling the planes firing effectiveness, I feel more than makes up for the degradation in speed and manueverability.

The 109g2 is not going to dominate the La-5 series even running without pods and a 25% fuel load, it is slower and will not out-turn it.
So the smart pilot will develop other ways to fight than trying to beat the La-5 at it's own game.
The average La-5 or even La-7 pilot in this sim is usually eager to turn fight, and I find often that they end up turning in front of my gunpods.

Here is a link to a great track that shows exactly what I am talking about, where although an La-5fn pilot attacks with an altitude advantage, his overeagerness to engage in turn-fighting loses his E advantage. Then he makes the mistake of repeatedly turning in front of my gunpods. Note how I never turn with the La-5fn, or try to match it's radius, but simply set-up a series of scissoring deflection shots.
http://rapidshare.de/files/14752047/quick0123.ntrk.html


This scenario is played over and over again online by overeager pilots who do not use their planes strength or their advantage in position, and I am glad, they make me look good!

Using the same technique, I have shot down many La-7s, Yak-3ps and other supposedly uber planes, with a 109E!

S!

Jumoschwanz

.....

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Exactly my experiences too. You can count ont he 109G to get you a good deflection firing solution from its turn, but dont sustained turn with a La5 or Yak (ie keep turning round and round like oyu can in a Spitfire), you will usually lose, the slats usually come out and you lose toop much energy in the turn.

I dare not use gunpods often because of the speed cost, I need to be able to disengage if I need too.

Jumo, whats your experience of vertical looping with the La5 ? I always find he gains on me if I keep looping, if the Messer was 'more manouvrable in the vertical' then shouldnt it gain on the La5?

Sintubin
03-05-2006, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Lately I have been flying the 109g2 on some cockpit-on Russian servers against mostly the La-5 series, which has always been very popular in this sim since it came out.

In this sim any version of the La-5 is a match for the 109G2. I think the win goes to the pilot with the most experience and tricks up his sleeve.

If I get on the tail of an La-5 9 times out of ten he is toast, barring an intervention from his wingman or an error on my part.

If an La-5 pilot gets on my tail and he is a genuinely good pilot, he will shoot me down too.

In general combat online in dogfight servers though, I am not afraid to engage an La-5 series plane at all in ANY 109, mainly because over 90% of the time I can count on the pilot making an error, or just plain not being up to snuff. THis is not a characteristic of La-5 pilots alone, but the population of dogfight servers in general.

I do feel a good pilot in the La-5 can get an edge on a 109g2 if the 109 pilot tries to follow the La-5 in a sustained and level tight turn. I do think the La-5 has some advantage in an ability to turn tighter than a 109 with a good pilot on board.

I usually like to fly with gunpods on the 109g2, and have for years now, simply because tripling the planes firing effectiveness, I feel more than makes up for the degradation in speed and manueverability.

The 109g2 is not going to dominate the La-5 series even running without pods and a 25% fuel load, it is slower and will not out-turn it.
So the smart pilot will develop other ways to fight than trying to beat the La-5 at it's own game.
The average La-5 or even La-7 pilot in this sim is usually eager to turn fight, and I find often that they end up turning in front of my gunpods.

Here is a link to a great track that shows exactly what I am talking about, where although an La-5fn pilot attacks with an altitude advantage, his overeagerness to engage in turn-fighting loses his E advantage. Then he makes the mistake of repeatedly turning in front of my gunpods. Note how I never turn with the La-5fn, or try to match it's radius, but simply set-up a series of scissoring deflection shots.
http://rapidshare.de/files/14752047/quick0123.ntrk.html


This scenario is played over and over again online by overeager pilots who do not use their planes strength or their advantage in position, and I am glad, they make me look good!

Using the same technique, I have shot down many La-7s, Yak-3ps and other supposedly uber planes, with a 109E!

S!

Jumoschwanz

P.S. to use rapidshare, click on the link and then hit the "free" button, and the download will start in x number of seconds.....

Lol saw your track with Icons on and outside view on

EASY

Xiolablu3
03-05-2006, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Sintubin:

Lol saw your track with Icons on and outside view on

EASY

Errrm isnt it equally easy for both pilots?

If its so easy, Ill take you on in a La5 vs you in a 109G2 with these settings.

F6_Ace
03-05-2006, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Sintubin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Lately I have been flying the 109g2 on some cockpit-on Russian servers against mostly the La-5 series, which has always been very popular in this sim since it came out.

In this sim any version of the La-5 is a match for the 109G2. I think the win goes to the pilot with the most experience and tricks up his sleeve.

If I get on the tail of an La-5 9 times out of ten he is toast, barring an intervention from his wingman or an error on my part.

If an La-5 pilot gets on my tail and he is a genuinely good pilot, he will shoot me down too.

In general combat online in dogfight servers though, I am not afraid to engage an La-5 series plane at all in ANY 109, mainly because over 90% of the time I can count on the pilot making an error, or just plain not being up to snuff. THis is not a characteristic of La-5 pilots alone, but the population of dogfight servers in general.

I do feel a good pilot in the La-5 can get an edge on a 109g2 if the 109 pilot tries to follow the La-5 in a sustained and level tight turn. I do think the La-5 has some advantage in an ability to turn tighter than a 109 with a good pilot on board.

I usually like to fly with gunpods on the 109g2, and have for years now, simply because tripling the planes firing effectiveness, I feel more than makes up for the degradation in speed and manueverability.

The 109g2 is not going to dominate the La-5 series even running without pods and a 25% fuel load, it is slower and will not out-turn it.
So the smart pilot will develop other ways to fight than trying to beat the La-5 at it's own game.
The average La-5 or even La-7 pilot in this sim is usually eager to turn fight, and I find often that they end up turning in front of my gunpods.

Here is a link to a great track that shows exactly what I am talking about, where although an La-5fn pilot attacks with an altitude advantage, his overeagerness to engage in turn-fighting loses his E advantage. Then he makes the mistake of repeatedly turning in front of my gunpods. Note how I never turn with the La-5fn, or try to match it's radius, but simply set-up a series of scissoring deflection shots.
http://rapidshare.de/files/14752047/quick0123.ntrk.html


This scenario is played over and over again online by overeager pilots who do not use their planes strength or their advantage in position, and I am glad, they make me look good!

Using the same technique, I have shot down many La-7s, Yak-3ps and other supposedly uber planes, with a 109E!

S!

Jumoschwanz

P.S. to use rapidshare, click on the link and then hit the "free" button, and the download will start in x number of seconds.....

Lol saw your track with Icons on and outside view on

EASY </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Want f6 acemaker?

JG4_Helofly
03-05-2006, 01:00 PM
The test say that the la 5 turns as good as the g2, but with or without gunpods?

In game the la5 has a little advantage against the g2 in substain turn witount gunpods

Sintubin
03-05-2006, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sintubin:

Lol saw your track with Icons on and outside view on

EASY

Errrm isnt it equally easy for both pilots?

If its so easy, Ill take you on in a La5 vs you in a 109G2 with these settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok tel me when and where we post final outcome in here ))

Your cal just tel me when and where

I have calsign I/JG53_Friedric in lobby just cal me ))

Xiolablu3
03-05-2006, 03:00 PM
WHat servers have these settings?

You will beat me, but I will make it hard for you I'm sure and hopefully it wont be 'easy' :P

Badsight.
03-05-2006, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:


Badsight
"FB they are based on service aircraft & perform correctly"

wich service aircraft? there are different models differents engine types of the same aircraft..

Is the G2 perform as the 1942 ? 1942 g2 had some troubles as well are they modeled ingame? you dont get it do you

no plane in FB is based on over-performing prototypes (well probably isnt true for the I-185 , Go-229 , Bf-Z ect)

the Yaks in Fb are based - supposedly - on numbers service aircraft achieved - like the La-7 in FB isnt performing like the 660 km/h SL La-7 prototype

TheGozr
03-05-2006, 04:55 PM
Now get it.... The yak peform like the production yes but wich? defenitly not like late 44 or 45 for UT. certainly not like the second prototype 107 engine but more like the first 105 to me or the malfounctioning first serie of the 107. now different factories builted the aircrafts so in wich factory the data planes are from? it make a big difference for example the aircraft coming from moscow were better faster etc..

So there is a difference by taking performance from a prototype wich for your infos the second serie or third would be more correct of yak9u was extremely close to his proto and take the performance of a malfonctioning aircraft serie. in that case the G2 should have all the trouble and performance of 1942 aircrfat and all but it's ain't the case.la7 inflight RL were not that good at all but not that bad etheir it had so much troubles. But i really don't want to enter in this discussion because many aircrafts are incorrect. SO it would be more wise to create differents versions and loads or year or series of the same aircraft wich actually would be more historical. but we don't need dornier 335 kind of aircrafts. some model from begining 43 and end 43 are extremely differents and performs different by years and months.

Give you an example first serie yak1, mid serie and late are differents would be great to have it .. yak7A yak7b and late 7b, 7di with differents weapons loads on each model. Same with 109 and 190's etc.

Jumoschwanz
03-05-2006, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Exactly my experiences too. You can count ont he 109G to get you a good deflection firing solution from its turn, but dont sustained turn with a La5 or Yak (ie keep turning round and round like oyu can in a Spitfire), you will usually lose, the slats usually come out and you lose toop much energy in the turn.

I dare not use gunpods often because of the speed cost, I need to be able to disengage if I need too.

Jumo, whats your experience of vertical looping with the La5 ? I always find he gains on me if I keep looping, if the Messer was 'more manouvrable in the vertical' then shouldnt it gain on the La5?


I would never follow any decent VVS aircraft through any manuever if I could help it. As you can see in the track I posted, I would rather set up scissor type deflection shots all day long, then it does not matter what kind of manuever the La-5 or Yak is doing. If a Yak or La-5 starts looping I will just fly away straight, wait for him to come after me at high speed, then I can use his speed against him by moving out of his way, and then he will either go into a scissor with me or if he is smart and he has some serious E he will get back up out of the range of my gunpods. But that doesn't happen very often.

In the track I made, it is on a server out of Russia called "streamarena", it is always set up as a fast dogfight server with two bases very close together so you just take off and you are fighting right away. I go there now and then because it is a great server to get into a lot of these types of fights, in a short time. Great practice.

Also you can see, with my style of fighting, it is the firepower of gunpods that makes it possible. If I had only one nose cannon, the fight would have either lasted a lot longer and another La-5 would have come along before the job was done, or the La-5 might have found an edge and got the table turned on me.
The 20mm gunpods will often make it possible to down or seriously hurt an opponent with one good hit. So you can get onto the next task sooner. On any crowded server, it is exponentially more dangerous to be in a dogfight with each passing second. Sometimes you are limited by plane choice to just one 20mm nose cannon, and then you just have to make sure your gunnery is really damn good! I can do just fine with the single 20mm and I will use it when I want the extra speed and handling.
For instance I did a 1 vs 1 against a 25lb spit in a 109g2, and I was glad I did not have gunpods as the spit pilot was pretty darn good, and I needed every extra bit the plane could give to keep up.

The worst thing anyone can do in a dogfight, is to play the other guys game, try to stay on his six or follow him up and stall out below him. Whenever these guys make a pass at me and zoom up trying to get me to follow, I just fly straight and level, build up speed, and wait for them to finish whatever they are doing. Then they can try and find me again while I am below them or setting up some kind of head-on or deflection shot. Or I will just keep jerking them around until they lose patience and start playing MY GAME, and scissor with me. Then I can usually do some damage with those beautiful gunpods.

What is funny is a lot of guys that start 1 vs 1 servers, even if they pick the same plane as you and you are both in 109g2s, or 109g6, or whatever, even a Mig, I will put on the gunpods and often will smoke them on the initial pass. They don't like it, and whine about it sometimes too, but if I am going to do a head-on, and can have the opponent out-gunned 3 to 1, why wouldn't I do that? You have a three times better chance at hitting them and disabling them in one pass, and each chance you get to fire is like having three passes or chances with the single nose cannon. So you should be able to finish the fight three times faster!

S!

Jumoscwhanz

Xiolablu3
03-05-2006, 06:23 PM
Thanks for that mate, interesting read.

Ratsack
03-05-2006, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:

And the plane in the photo looks more like an F to me, since i dont see any humps behind hte cowl guns....or was that not on this particular model of G?

The external features that distinguish the G series from the F are:

1. The two small air scoops on the nose, just above and in front of the exhausts. These are to cool the surface of the engine block so that when the oil tank just behind the prop leaks, the oil doesn’t catch fire on the hot engine.

2. The armoured glass was mounted internally, giving the windscreen much heavier framing.

3. The wheel wells are squared off, where the F series wheel wells are rounded.

4. The octane triangle will show 87 on the G series, and C3 on the F-3 and F-4.

Cheers,
Ratsack

Xiolablu3
03-05-2006, 08:42 PM
Plus, the plane in the pic has gunpods, I have never heard of any 109F carrying pods? Has anyone else?

Badsight.
03-05-2006, 10:08 PM
Bf-109 F wings were never meant to carry gunpods

the G series had specifically strengthened wings just for that purpose

Xiolablu3
03-06-2006, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
Bf-109 F wings were never meant to carry gunpods

the G series had specifically strengthened wings just for that purpose

Thanks for the info mate. I didnt think so.


I love fighting Spitfire Vbs's in a 109F4 on the Malta map on Ukdedicated2, great matchup.

Jumoschwanz
03-06-2006, 08:12 AM
ONe cool thing, Galland had his mechanics put two 20mm MGFF guns INSIDE the wings of his 109F, along with mg131 in the cowl, and they did it without making the big lumps the later 109g had. NOw that is a plane I would like to fly in this sim. HIs mechanics also made two other 109F4s that just had the bigger mg131 in the cowl, but no cannons in the wings.

Jumoschwanz

Kocur_
03-06-2006, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
Bf-109 F wings were never meant to carry gunpods

the G series had specifically strengthened wings just for that purpose

Im affraid that information is not so precise. Whatever was changed in wings design between Friedrich and Gustav, there was Bf-109F-4/R6, i.e. F4 with gunpods, each with MG151 (in 15mm, not MG151/20). Few, like 4 or 5 of such planes were assigned to I/JG52 and took part in Blau. The only reason F4 with gunpods didnt become common was that Fs were just replaced by Gs on production lines.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8137/bf109f4r64cx.png (http://imageshack.us)

Kocur_
03-06-2006, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGozr:


Badsight
"FB they are based on service aircraft & perform correctly"

wich service aircraft? there are different models differents engine types of the same aircraft..

Is the G2 perform as the 1942 ? 1942 g2 had some troubles as well are they modeled ingame? you dont get it do you

no plane in FB is based on over-performing prototypes (well probably isnt true for the I-185 , Go-229 , Bf-Z ect)

the Yaks in Fb are based - supposedly - on numbers service aircraft achieved - like the La-7 in FB isnt performing like the 660 km/h SL La-7 prototype </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a sidenote: no La-7 ever flew that fast. The very fastest of La family was experimental La-5 "206", i.e. plane with most of airframe features used later in La-7, but OTOH La-5 like cowling and spinner - good for aerodynamics but bad for engine temperature. The plane was evaluated between 16 december 1943 - 10 february 1944 in Zhukovski and reached 630kmh @ SL. La-7 got larger oil radiator and new cowling with larger air intake and smaller spinner - this resulted not only in ability to use engine at 1850PS longer than a sneeze, but also spoiled aerodynamics of that part compared to La-5.

Xiolablu3
03-06-2006, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
Bf-109 F wings were never meant to carry gunpods

the G series had specifically strengthened wings just for that purpose

Im affraid that information is not so precise. Whatever was changed in wings design between Friedrich and Gustav, there was Bf-109F-4/R6, i.e. F4 with gunpods, each with MG151 (in 15mm, not MG151/20). Few, like 4 or 5 of such planes were assigned to I/JG52 and took part in Blau. The only reason F4 with gunpods didnt become common was that Fs were just replaced by Gs on production lines.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8137/bf109f4r64cx.png (http://imageshack.us) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From that data I think what Badsight says is correct...

I guess that these were the prototypes of Gunpods for the 109, to test if they were feasible or not.

They would have asked the pilots for reports on how effective the gunpods were and since the reports were favorable, the 109G had proper provisions for attaching the pods, rather than these 'special' 109F's

Kocur_
03-06-2006, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
ONe cool thing, Galland had his mechanics put two 20mm MGFF guns INSIDE the wings of his 109F, along with mg131 in the cowl, and they did it without making the big lumps the later 109g had. NOw that is a plane I would like to fly in this sim. HIs mechanics also made two other 109F4s that just had the bigger mg131 in the cowl, but no cannons in the wings.

Jumoschwanz

There is alot to indicate that both Galland's Friedrich with pair of MG FFMs in wings and MG131 above engine were prototypes built in Regensburg plant.
Wing cannons Friedrich was Bf-109 F-6/U, result of five guns Frierdichs: F-5 and F-6, about three were built. Installation of cannons was a bit too much for field mechanics, as it took installing not only cannons (no hole in spar like in Emils!) but also installations to operate it. Friedrichs with MG FFMs in wings were dropped when MG151/20 saw light.
Also Bf-109 F-2/U1 was made in plant, not in field - MG131 werent around so much in 1941.

Kurfurst__
03-06-2006, 10:52 AM
Between Dec 1941 - April 1942 (just prior to 109G production start), the Wiener Neustadt Flugzeugwerke finished 240 Bf 109F-4/R1s that were prepeared to carry cannon gondolas.

So, definietely not just a few protos built, but as said the Gustav came into the picture rather soon.

Also, the 109F-3 and F-4 had DB 601E, which run at 87 octane B4 again, not 100 octane C3.