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View Full Version : What Do you think are Bi planes to slow? boring?



RaVe_N
03-23-2007, 09:11 AM
Do you think the bi planes are to slow????? boring???

I'd say give it a try IMHO the opposite is true.

They may be slow, but the turning dog fights are twice as fast.
The maneuvers and amount of mental work are far more simulating than the so called "fast" AC

Dog Fights in the Cr42 and J8 involve much faster decision making as they turn so quickly.
The dog fights are heart pounding. Situations reverse in a split second.
Not to mention the hand eye coordination need to maximize performance in them.
These air craft take skill and work just to fly, let alone dog fight in.
Granted pretty much only the skilled experience pilot can Handel them .
Its a great way for new guys to train as if you can fly them well the rest is gravy.

I must say that in all the years in flight Sims I never thought I would get bored with 109,spits, p47, pony's 190, etc and find greater stimulation from the early war bi plane.

Suppose it was because I never gave them a chance.
I thought I was to good for them and they were "Noob" air craft err wrong again.

What do you think any veiws on this??

WWSensei
03-23-2007, 09:23 AM
When a good, robust and decent dynamic campaign WWI sim comes along the IL2 series will probably be shelved by me.

I have zero interest in BoB (just don't care for the battle or the aircraft) and much prefer the canvas eagles over the WW2 aircraft.

The only aircraft I'd really beg Oleg to finish would be the Po-2.

Hawgdog
03-23-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
When a good, robust and decent dynamic campaign WWI sim comes along the IL2 series will probably be shelved by me.



+1


I have zero interest in BoB

+2

RaVe_N
03-23-2007, 09:45 AM
Well I will fly lots of BOB I'm sure.
I support it all the way.
Hey there may be lots more Bi planes to play with in there I hope

msalama
03-23-2007, 09:46 AM
The only aircraft I'd really beg Oleg to finish would be the Po-2.

+3

Though I'm personally interested in the Battle of Britain, too...

JerryFodder
03-23-2007, 09:51 AM
Dogfighting in Biplanes is great fun - very different to late war BnZ.

XyZspineZyX
03-23-2007, 09:55 AM
Never could understand Puritans http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rnzoli
03-23-2007, 09:59 AM
There are a couple of early war campaings on the 102nd COOP server, and I repetively see people leaving the server when someone rotates into those maps. Most complain about not being familiar with the aircraft, that's all. On open DF servers and WC, they always go for late-war stuff, and compared to that, early biplanes are quite different and people often find themselves outside of their comfort zones.

You can't find thread about "which bi-plane won the war" or "which bi-plane will has worse DM and FM", can you?

I personally like them, they are better turners, neg G cutouts make combat more tricky, the guns are smaller and need more tracking shots to achieve results etc.

The best is when the 1950 Korea campaing finishes and server goes back to 1939 Khalkin Gol and 1940 North Africa. Wow, what a difference, flying jets in one moment, then go back in the time machine and see where all of shiny jets came from.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

WWSensei
03-23-2007, 10:24 AM
You can't find thread about "which bi-plane won the war" or "which bi-plane will has worse DM and FM", can you?

Depends on the war. If you were talking about WWI you would see that question. Not slamming IL2, I've enjoyed it, but allow me to clarify.

In general. I don't care for WW2 air combat. I am far more of a WWI air combat fan. I was no longer happy with RB3D and did IL2 because it was really the only other option.

As for FM/DM debates I'll put it this way--if you took the last 5 years of IL2 FM/DM debates combined they wouldn't touch the level of debate that occurred in the single "The DrI is porked!" thread in the old Delphi forum. That single thread included death threats, accusations of international espionage, at least one lawsuit, and possible animal abuse. Sorry, but when it comes to heated and passion filled debates on FM/DM the IL2 crowd doesn't even rank as amateurs.

The DAY a good WWI sim comes along I will uninstall IL2 to make room for it. Again, not a statement against IL2--just a statement of my preferences for WWI.

I am not alone in the IL2 community in that opinion.

WWSpinDry
03-23-2007, 10:31 AM
Four words: "climbs like a monkey."

The pain ... the pain.

ShrikeHawk
03-23-2007, 11:12 AM
I love taking the Gladiator up against the Cr.42. That is so much fun it's sinful!

How about the biplane battles from "between the wars" or those from early in WW2? Taking a Finnish Gladiator up against a Russian I-153 is a blast.

In CFS2 I made a DCG campaign for China in 1937. I had the A4N1 (similar to F4B-4) and Ki-10 going up against Chinese Curtis Hawks II and III, and Cr.32s and also the A5M4,Ki-27 against P-26,I-16. What incredible fun! Dogfights with these older fighters were vicious knifefights at short range. I got quite a thrill at landing a biplane on a carrier, hehehe.

Wish something similar could be made in IL2 with it's superior graphics and FMs *sigh*

jarink
03-23-2007, 11:21 AM
Strictly speaking, it wasn't bi- on bi- (get your minds outta the gutter!), but I had great fun with a few QMB battles trying out the Ki-27 against I-153s last night.

I hope one of the first post-1C 3rd party expansions to IL2 would be cover the Spanish Civil War. That would be so fun it would be illegal in some countries.

ViktorViktor
03-23-2007, 12:45 PM
I tried out a J8 one evening and it felt like I was flying around with blinders on. Field of view was poor, to say it mildly.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
How do you biplane drivers cope w/ the reduced field of view ?

RaVe_N
03-23-2007, 01:07 PM
with your ears..
also don't fly in a line.
Its not so bad...oh but that kok pit is so so lovely isn't it?
Wow what detail

Think the J8 is bad? try the Cr42 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fox_3
03-23-2007, 01:23 PM
I've always prefered biplanes over the late war ***** substitutes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Blutarski2004
03-23-2007, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by WWSpinDry:
Four words: "climbs like a monkey."

The pain ... the pain.



..... Ah yes, the good old days. How many meters per second could a monkey climb?

Blutarski2004
03-23-2007, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by RaVe_N:
Do you think the bi planes are to slow????? boring???

I'd say give it a try IMHO the opposite is true.

They may be slow, but the turning dog fights are twice as fast.
The maneuvers and amount of mental work are far more simulating than the so called "fast" AC

Dog Fights in the Cr42 and J8 involve much faster decision making as they turn so quickly.
The dog fights are heart pounding. Situations reverse in a split second.
Not to mention the hand eye coordination need to maximize performance in them.
These air craft take skill and work just to fly, let alone dog fight in.
Granted pretty much only the skilled experience pilot can Handel them .
Its a great way for new guys to train as if you can fly them well the rest is gravy.

I must say that in all the years in flight Sims I never thought I would get bored with 109,spits, p47, pony's 190, etc and find greater stimulation from the early war bi plane.

Suppose it was because I never gave them a chance.
I thought I was to good for them and they were "Noob" air craft err wrong again.

What do you think any veiws on this??



WW1 -

+ Sexier paint schemes. Skinner's heaven, in fact.

+ Ability to see your target disintegrate from 30 ft away in glorious technicolor instead of watching a black silhouette spurt smoke from 300 yds away.

+ A generally more comfortable pilot relationship with his mount: no CEM, no prop pitch management, no blower shifts, no compressibility, no stick reversal, no slats, flaps, or trim to worry about, no light bulbs to change in the reflector sight.

VMF-214_HaVoK
03-23-2007, 01:45 PM
Raven you ever think of changing the name of your sever so that people know right off the bat that its a WW1 server or something? I know new servers take awhile to gather a following. Warclouds and Zeke vs Wildcat both suffered empty servers for months. Get your whole squad in there and invite another one to join you. Get a hold of me this weekend and I will get some of my guys together to join and help populate the server. The whole skin pack thing could be throwing some people off. I dont know way though, I think its a terrific idea.

ploughman
03-23-2007, 01:47 PM
It's a genre and I like to turn quite alot.

I like the look of the Grenadich thing, looks fabbo and offers a different and contemporary engine to SoW. If I were to speculate on the contents of my hard drive in 24-36 months, I would say it would contain Knights of the Air, the Il-2 series, and all SoW engined titles released by that date. That's a pretty rich seam I'll be mining.

ViktorViktor
03-23-2007, 01:48 PM
Blutarski wrote:

WW1 -

+ Sexier paint schemes. Skinner's heaven, in fact.

+ Ability to see your target disintegrate from 30 ft away in glorious technicolor instead of watching a black silhouette spurt smoke from 300 yds away.

+ A generally more comfortable pilot relationship with his mount: no CEM, no prop pitch management, no blower shifts, no compressibility, no stick reversal, no slats, flaps, or trim to worry about, no light bulbs to change in the reflector sight.


But no parachute. Tempting, but no thanks.

ViktorViktor
03-23-2007, 02:15 PM
Oh, you were just describing the SIM version of WWI. Doh, what was I thinking ?

BSS_AIJO
03-23-2007, 02:24 PM
Hey,


I love it when early war bi-plane heavy maps rotate in. They are awsome fun.. Try going up against a early Hurricane in a cr-42. That can make for some awsome fights. The Hurricane guys are used to out turning everything.. Then they meet the cr42 and are stuck running with their smoking tail between their legs... 8^) I have also managed to occasionally shot down He-111's from a J8A.

BSS_AIJO

leitmotiv
03-23-2007, 02:51 PM
Biplanes boring?! Id rather brawl in a I-153 vs a Fiat CR42 than waste my time making three km turns in late-war fighters. Biplanes are the heart and soul of dogfighting.

Badsight-
03-23-2007, 03:24 PM
while the Po-2 has plenty of use in historical senarios , the POS is so slow

sure the bip fighters are slow , but they got agility & are fun to use . the Po-2 otoh . . . .

i just dont get the appeal of no foward guns , a complete lack of speed & accell - & just 2 little bombs

JG53Frankyboy
03-23-2007, 03:35 PM
indeed, this game makes some very interesting early war scenarios possible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
lot of fun , in general enjoying them much more than late war canon-battles..........

looking realy forward to this http://www.gennadich.com/lang/en/

even these planes will be realy slow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ShrikeHawk
03-23-2007, 04:33 PM
Has anybody seen this:

http://www.gennadich.com/id/55/showall/yep/
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_290a.html

Looks like some 3rd party stuff is coming...

RaVe_N
03-23-2007, 04:50 PM
yes good links here is one more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0tnNkxPsxw&mode=related&search=

http://8raven8.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=wwi

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lurch1962
03-23-2007, 05:40 PM
For some strange reason I've always had a greater level of interest in the earlier stages of conflicts. In WWII, planes put in service up to 1940-41 are much more fun to fly, and likewise the kites to be found in the air during first half or so of WWI hold more fascination.

In IL-2 I fairly often fire up a mission or two in which fast and furious knife fights between bi-planes is the order of the day. I do love it up close and personal!

--Lurch--

WWSensei
03-23-2007, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
while the Po-2 has plenty of use in historical senarios , the POS is so slow

sure the bip fighters are slow , but they got agility & are fun to use . the Po-2 otoh . . . .

i just dont get the appeal of no foward guns , a complete lack of speed & accell - & just 2 little bombs

You think the Po-2 is bad? I loved flying the Re8 mods in RB3D. Real pilots aren't afraid of their Vmax being only 5 mph over stall speed.

You haven't lived until you try to nurse a wing-warping (who needs fancy control surfaces like ailerons?--wusses, that's who!) Eindecker back across friendly lines while a vastly superior Bebe or one of those fancy new N17s is trying to hunt you down.

I hear a bunch of wimps whining about the P-51 losing it's wings because they are diving and pull up too fast pulling 15 Gs...Real Pilots don't sweat overstressing and losing their wings on the Morane Bullet because you flared for landing too quickly.

Most fun sim flight I've ever had was in a 3 ship Morane pursuit flight that got caught way behind enemy lines and had to do something resembling a Thatch Weave for almost 30 minutes to get back over friendly lines--never getting more than 500 feet off the ground. That was almost 10 years ago but Pepe, 8Ball and I STILL talk about that mission.

You guys and your fancy raising of your landing gear and adjustable throttles....hmppph. Real pilots don't need that extra speed and a blip button is plenty enough throttle control.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leitmotiv
03-23-2007, 07:22 PM
amen

Blutarski2004
03-23-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
You guys and your fancy ... adjustable throttles....hmppph. Real pilots don't need that extra speed and a blip button is plenty enough throttle control.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


..... ON / OFF. What else do you need!?

WWSpinDry
03-24-2007, 08:04 AM
I'm starting to get turned on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Xiolablu3
03-24-2007, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have zero interest in BoB

+2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


SAcrilige!!

How dare you!

Spits Vs 109's IS THE DEFINITIVE WW2 air combat! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Philipscdrw
03-24-2007, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
You think the Po-2 is bad? I loved flying the Re8 mods in RB3D. Real pilots aren't afraid of their Vmax being only 5 mph over stall speed.

I hear a bunch of wimps whining about the P-51 losing it's wings because they are diving and pull up too fast pulling 15 Gs...Real Pilots don't sweat overstressing and losing their wings on the Morane Bullet because you flared for landing too quickly.

You guys and your fancy raising of your landing gear and adjustable throttles....hmppph. Real pilots don't need that extra speed and a blip button is plenty enough throttle control.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
No, real pilots don't worry about those things, because everyone who had cause to worry about those things had a very strong tendency to become extremely DEAD, and therefore cease to worry! And that's why we have tricycle undercarriage, ladies and gentlemen.

Come to think of it, winch-launching the SZD-50 Puchacz glider, you are required to fly between 50kts (the stalling speed when you've got the virtual 'weight' of the winch tension on the aircraft) and 60kts (where you'll stress the aircraft too much, the lift from the wings vs the winch tension again, and break the cable).

I read an account from a chap who flew one of the early Camel replicas (I think he flew one in the 1970s), who said that it was relatively unmanoueverable and non-responsive, thanks to the very primitive control surfaces of the 1910s. (He also found that the 60's-designed radial engine was less reliable than the original WW1 rotary engines...)

leitmotiv
03-24-2007, 02:25 PM
Manfred von R. was famously aerobatics averse but his buddy, Voss, used the Fokker triplane like a Pitts Special, ditto for Udet. Depended on the individual's skill and threshold for danger. At any rate, fighting in a well-modeled WWI biplane is a rousing challenge, and it is fun to be able to practically turn in place. Roll on KNIGHTS OF THE SKY.

Would be interesting if BOB stimulates modelers doing some '20's and '30's biplanes.

Blutarski2004
03-24-2007, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
I read an account from a chap who flew one of the early Camel replicas (I think he flew one in the 1970s), who said that it was relatively unmanoueverable and non-responsive, thanks to the very primitive control surfaces of the 1910s. (He also found that the 60's-designed radial engine was less reliable than the original WW1 rotary engines...)


..... Agree that most WW1 a/c had rather stiff controls, primarily because of poor aileron design. But the fellow flying the Camel replica fitted with a radial engine was not getting the benefit (sometimes very exciting) of gyroscopic precession which the huge rotating mass of the rotary engine imparted (think stationary crankshaft bolted to the firewall with the entire rest of the engine, crankcase, cylinders and all, plus attached prop, spinning around its axis at 1200 rpm - only way they could reliably cool the engine with air instead of heavy radiator system). This force of gyroscopic precession required a Camel pilot to apply a strong left rudder when turning in EITHER direction.

WWSpinDry
03-24-2007, 05:36 PM
And nothing else on the planet sounds like one of those old rotaries kicking over. I really hope Gennadich gets the real thing for their sim, the stock radial sounds in their fly-by video were completely unsatisfying.

Blutarski2004
03-24-2007, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by WWSpinDry:
And nothing else on the planet sounds like one of those old rotaries kicking over. I really hope Gennadich gets the real thing for their sim, the stock radial sounds in their fly-by video were completely unsatisfying.



..... I just hope he doesn't model castor oil effects on the pilot.

Why did I just go there? Slap me, Spinny.

WWSpinDry
03-25-2007, 06:27 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

stathem
03-25-2007, 10:02 AM
Thanks for the server Raven.

Had a lot of fun last night shooting up Dawg's Gotha.

Good luck with it, wish I could get there more often. Lovely skins too

WTE_Galway
03-25-2007, 05:43 PM
A few years back (pre pacific Fighters) I was part of a group that was put together to make a WWi add on for IL2.

I had volunteered to do skinning on the planes at the time but no complete aircraft eventuated as far as I know. The group had some sort of unofficial go ahead from Oleg which seem basically to amount to "give me sufficient planes for a viable addon and we will consider possibly doing the flight models".

Even if the group had produced the 5 or 10 aircraft needed there was no guarantee that they would get flight models but in fact only a couple of near complete planes eventuated and as far as I know the project is long dead.

MB80
03-25-2007, 06:48 PM
I can remember that I played RED BARON often in the early 90s, funny sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But I can't say that I like the Bi planes in Il2, I like all the early war planes in the game. Dogfighting with the 109E, the Hurri, the Fiats, the I15/16 is alot of fun. It sucks that most filled servers have just maps with late war planes, it's boring to play just high speed B&Z with big cannons.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

M_Gunz
03-25-2007, 09:40 PM
These 30's biplanes we have are at least as far removed from WWI fighters as the late war
ubers we have are ahead of them! The wing designs, not only much better foils but with
washout that WWI planes did not have -- stalls came abrupt and complete to such light and
lightly loaded wonders as even the most bricklike SPAD and Pfalz fighters made! Only the
DrI and DVII had even semi-modern foils at all. The moves you can get away with in a J8
would get you killed in any WWI fighter. The speeds... when your "advanced" machines have
a top level IAS of perhaps 180-190 kph, then you are in late WWI. I-153 is how fast?

I still want BoB though, and I hope for option of limited range on padlock. I don't have
TIR and will be spending the $ on new mobo, cpu and RAM instead. But even with TIR I won't
be able to turn view fast enough to match eyes and neck and still hold sight long enough
to SA when there are literally 100's of other planes within 2 miles (3 km) of me! BoB
should be at times an SA near-overload, we can't be limited down by game-mechanics or it's
gonna be a waste of time.
The other thing that BoB will really need is much better, team-oriented AI and not to rely
on the online game to pilot every plane or even fighter active... or it will be a sparse BoB!

Feathered_IV
03-25-2007, 11:30 PM
What server is this? Me wants to try http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

RaVe_N
03-26-2007, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
Thanks for the server Raven.

Had a lot of fun last night shooting up Dawg's Gotha.

Good luck with it, wish I could get there more often. Lovely skins too

my pleasure hope to see you again glad you enjoyed it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

@ Feathered_IV

Click the link on my sig for more info http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif