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Sovereign73811
02-07-2006, 03:24 PM
Hi all.
I fly a p-51 mustang and in quickbattle, the much slower Bf-109 g-6 keeps outrunning me. I fly on full realism settings. What am i doing wrong?

(I still killed him it just took longer and more skill to catch him)

(he made a nice fireball when i bagged him.

uberchuckie
02-07-2006, 03:32 PM
Is your plane trimmed correctly? Are you running the right boost gear? What altitude are you at? The Mustang is fast in high altitude but not a speed demon on the deck.

Chuck_Older
02-07-2006, 03:36 PM
The P-51's supercharger is always, always set on "AUTO" in this sim, Chuck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif can't choose the wrong speed setting

But I agree...a little more info is needed. Every aircraft has an altitude at which it can approach it's rated top speed, and there's always circumstances which can rob you of speed, like being out of trim and fighting the controls to stay straight and level

Treetop64
02-07-2006, 03:40 PM
Actually, the 109s, especially the G models, were pretty fast planes, and with all the aerobatics involved in air combat it is not a simple matter of just being faster than your opponent.

Dexmeister
02-07-2006, 03:40 PM
Is your gear down? Flaps extended? Do you have a big dead zone at the top of your joystick throttle axis?

Maybe it's just your fear scaring the plane out of performing well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously though, if plane X is supposedly faster than plane Y by 20mph, that doesn't mean that the pilot in plane Y can't manage their energy in a way that gets them going faster than X.

uberchuckie
02-07-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
The P-51's supercharger is always, always set on "AUTO" in this sim, Chuck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif can't choose the wrong speed setting

I stand corrected, Chuck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's been a while since I fired up the game. I bought some Tempest and Mosquito books in anticipation of the add-on release!

Chuck_Older
02-07-2006, 03:56 PM
I can't wait myself!

I had thought about starting a P-51 blower speed whine patch, way back when, but instead I whined about getting correct ETO markings for the P-51D

From what I have read, making the blower speed selectable in the Mustang really offers no advantage in the sim other than increased complexity (for some reason or other) and so it was decided to have it permanently set on "AUTO". I never really found out the whole story but for some reason we can't change it

Sovereign73811
02-07-2006, 04:12 PM
ok im usually at altitude, 7500 m above sea level, trim is set correctly so im not fighting the aircraft, gear is up, flaps are up, and in sections where the AI is just running away from me straight and level, no aerobatics, he stil outruns me. And the mustang is 50 kmh faster than the g-6, which is the one i fight, so even if he is milking everything out of his fighter i should still be able to catch up, even if its slow.

Anyone got any p51 tips? Also, i've heard the center fuel tank really impacts the manueverability of the plane, is there anyway to offset this?

SeaFireLIV
02-07-2006, 04:30 PM
Faster does not mean better turner, in fact the slower you are, the better you turn, as many a cocky pilot online and in reality have discovered. In fact, i went online a couple of times in an I16 and shot down 2 1944 fighters and watched another 2 eat the earth trying to turnfight with me. Priceless.

Of course, when the boys who KNEW what they were doing came along, I was toast! (hint: they didn`t try turning with me - your 109 probably turned cos he knew he could best your P-51 in that situation).

Chuck_Older
02-07-2006, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Sovereign73811:
ok im usually at altitude, 7500 m above sea level, trim is set correctly so im not fighting the aircraft, gear is up, flaps are up, and in sections where the AI is just running away from me straight and level, no aerobatics, he stil outruns me. And the mustang is 50 kmh faster than the g-6, which is the one i fight, so even if he is milking everything out of his fighter i should still be able to catch up, even if its slow.

Anyone got any p51 tips? Also, i've heard the center fuel tank really impacts the manueverability of the plane, is there anyway to offset this?

Fuel tank issues:

No, not really, and I don't really think it's an issue, because as far as I can tell, the CoG isn't effected on the plane, it's only the raw weight

You have fuel for a LONG trip in that P-51. You might try setting fuel to 75,50, or even 25% and seeing if that helps

dravisar
02-07-2006, 06:50 PM
P51D
HP w/ boost: 1720
Weight T/O: 5206
HP/kg (weight ratio): 0.33
Sea Level: 578
6900m: 703


BF109G6/AS
HP w/ boost: 1800
Weight T/O: 3146
HP/kg (weight ratio): 0.57
Sea Level: 530
7000m: 640

The obvious thing to look at here is HP to weight ratio. Those ratios were calculated at full boost, at take off (sea level HP rating)with full fuel. When I play on the dogfight maps, I generally go 25% fuel in the 51D, 25-50% in the G6 (the Gustavs rip through fuel like no other at full throttle and boost).

But it shows an obvious acceleration difference between the two planes: The gustav "should" out accelerate the P51D. If you are on the deck, and cant catch up, thats why. With energy fighting, you have to take into account that if he has just turned 180 degrees off your flight path and leveled off or is diving, he is accelerating away from you until you are pointed directly at him.

If your taking 25% fuel and so is he, you are both on the deck turn fighting, and he somehow shakes you and levels off to run, he can close his radiator, go full throttle, and out accelerate you to a point. You should however, with proper trim and radiator control, be able to catch him eventually.

I'm not really sure how the radiator control is modelled other than on full open and through the range it slows down alot of aircraft, especially the radials with huge cowls.

I fly the G6/AS and G10 almost exclusively, and with the AS and a shallow dive I can pull away from alot of aircraft as long as I break away from them and start my descent while they are still turning hard, with a few notable exceptions.

Edited to add: In the object description in IL2, for the Gustavs: "Able to outfly almost any pursuer."

I recommend picking up HardBalls Aircraft Viewer, and more importantly, Nueral_Dream's Aircraft Guide.

Grey_Mouser67
02-07-2006, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Sovereign73811:
ok im usually at altitude, 7500 m above sea level, trim is set correctly so im not fighting the aircraft, gear is up, flaps are up, and in sections where the AI is just running away from me straight and level, no aerobatics, he stil outruns me. And the mustang is 50 kmh faster than the g-6, which is the one i fight, so even if he is milking everything out of his fighter i should still be able to catch up, even if its slow.

Anyone got any p51 tips? Also, i've heard the center fuel tank really impacts the manueverability of the plane, is there anyway to offset this?

Sovergn...there are still lots of AI problems...I am assuming you are offline...I have the same issue...G6Lates walking away from Mustangs and Lightings way, way up there.

I don't know if it still just an AI bug...my suspicion is that the AI can operate the aircraft on full boost with radiators closed...they climb away from everything!

You could turn your overheat off...but for me this is an immersion killer. The whole thing is really a bad deal for the offliners but those are the cards we're dealt right now....I seem to do better at slightly lower altitudes which helps me but the AI still is messed up.

lairdperkins
02-07-2006, 08:56 PM
I'm actually curious about this as well. There seem to be some players that can just get more out of their AC than I seem to be able to.

Could some of you Grognards comment on the following?

1) Optimum Prop Pitch for climb / dive / cruise / max speed?

2) Optimum Mixture settings for etc.?

3) Effect of Coolant / Engine temp on max performance and general radiator management?

4) General rules of thumb for Supercharger settings?

I see some of these pop up in various discussions but I've never seen a definative answer... I tend to just buzz around at full throttle, 100% mix, 100% prop pitch until I get the engine overheat message... am I slowing myself down or just burning way too much gas?

Thanks in advance!

SeaFireLIV
02-08-2006, 04:45 AM
Bah! I read this wrong. I thought the title said `outturn`, not outrun...

oh well.

alert_1
02-08-2006, 07:29 AM
AI seems to be just "a little" faster then the same plane used by player, maybe it's for challenge or they simply manage radiators, pitch, trim etc better then human, dont know...

quiet_man
02-08-2006, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
AI seems to be just "a little" faster then the same plane used by player, maybe it's for challenge or they simply manage radiators, pitch, trim etc better then human, dont know...

the biggest boost is at climb, it seams the "program logic" for climb does not allow the AI plane to drop below a certain speed

with the new df ai it is no so obvios, but you can try to select an slow AI plane at ACE level (e.g. IL2 fighter version) and turn with him without shooting him down (don't stay to close behind him or he will never go to climb mode) try to stay always a little higher than he.

when fighting ai planes you need to stay low or they will climb away from time to time

quiet_man

Marak117
02-08-2006, 10:04 AM
If we are talking about the P-51 specifically, remember that it has an automated radiator system. If you try and reach full speed with the system active it'll open your radiator to full and knock a good 20kph off your top speed.

You can override the system with the radiator key, but of course this does lead to a constant balancing act with engine temp.

Professor_06
02-08-2006, 02:55 PM
check for junk in your trunk

mortoma
02-08-2006, 04:30 PM
Another thing he may be experiencing is that that AI planes are faster than they are in RL. And also faster than when you fly the exact same plane. Oleg did this to give AI an advantage so you can't shoot them down as easily as you otherwise could. He admitted to this a long time ago. One of the big reasons is because they do not have to slow down to cool thier engine due to overheating like you do. But even without the lack of overheat, they are still faster than they should be.

How many times in an offline coop have I been fying flat out ( before overheat even sets in ) to chase an enemy and one of my AI flight mates in the exact same type of plane flies right by me like I'm sitting still???? They do it all the time. And I know how to squeak every drop of speed from a plane and that includes closing my radiator/cowl flaps if I have to. I also know how to trim because I'm a RL life pilot. If I can't get the max out of a sim plane I have no business holding an FAA certificate!!! So believe me, I am going flat out in everthing I fly but the AI fly faster than me ( in the same plane ) and also deccelerate and accelerate much better. I have also been flying this sim since the Demo in 2001 or 2002.

That 109G6 is probably going 20 or 30Kph faster than you could fly it but the Stang is going about what it should, so this may explain a lot of what the original poster is talking about but there may be other factors too. The AI G6 also has better acceleration than a Stang plus the added "Oleg AI boost" acceleration on top of that. By the time you got up to speed in the slower accelerating Stang, you are now probably overheating and have to drop to 99% or less throttle and have to open up the rads some. All that stuff adds up.

Also what altitude is this at?? There may be some alts that the 109 has an edge, or at least less of a disadvantage. I'll have to check it
out

Burnzoire1
02-08-2006, 04:40 PM
Prop pitch is absolutely essential for high powered planes such as the mustang. She'll run like a dream if you constantly adjust the prop pitch (think of it as gears in a car/bike and you'll be fine).

mortoma
02-08-2006, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Burnzoire:
Prop pitch is absolutely essential for high powered planes such as the mustang. She'll run like a dream if you constantly adjust the prop pitch (think of it as gears in a car/bike and you'll be fine). You are right to some extent but I never found that prop pitch makes a
a big difference. But it's is more pronouced in some planes. I usually leave my pitch at 100% at the levels fights usually take place, which is low most of the time. I find that up 5000 meters, reducing prop pitch in most planes doesn't matter. Help postpone overheat some but that's about it. I have adjusted prop pitch in a lot of planes as an experiment only to find little, if any gain. I'll have to try it in the Stang at differing heights.

Grey_Mouser67
02-08-2006, 08:02 PM
This is not an engine management issue...it is an AI issue.

A Mustang can fly 440mph at 26,000 ft...at least 40 mph faster than the 109G6Late at that same altitude and "should" have a climb advantage too....radiator or no that is 64km/hr.

There is a bug afoot...I forgot about the old prop pitch...again, with no overheat and unlimited boost, it is possible for a 109AI to outclimb and outrun Mustangs and Lightnings....this isn't a matter of engine management etc...it is code/AI exploit driven.

One suggestion, what I do sometimes, is strap those gunpods to them to slow em down...but again, this sort of defeats the purpose.

Oddly, the 109 is the only plane with this exploit or the only one that is this noticable....I am not counting on Oleg to fix it as it was reported last time around.