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rfxcasey
06-29-2010, 07:11 AM
What are the keys to maximizing speed. I find when I fly a plane that should technically be faster then my opposition I can still have a heck of a time catching them where as they have no issues catching me. I was flying a p-38 10 the other night night against some '43 Zekes and it just seemed like it should have more power. It was plenty fast in a dive for getting away but I found it hard and time consuming to climb back up while maintaining speed for another go at the opposition.

JG53Frankyboy
06-29-2010, 07:21 AM
human or AI flown Zero ?

rfxcasey
06-29-2010, 07:51 AM
AI

megalopsuche
06-29-2010, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by rfxcasey:
AI
There's your answer. The AI can run at 110% without limit.

Add your voice to the 4.10 thread above if you want to see Team Dedalos change it. Apparently, they could do so, but it's not a priority.

bracknell1989
06-29-2010, 08:21 AM
ahh but why improve what you've already got when you can have more more more!!!!!!!!!!!

If they don't improve the AI it really would be poor.

arjisme
06-29-2010, 09:22 AM
In the mean time, turn off engine overheat if you want to have the same advantage.

M_Gunz
06-29-2010, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by rfxcasey:
What are the keys to maximizing speed.

One thing that won't help is doing nothing but whine even if it's whine about the AI.

What you can do:

1) keep in trim -- if you're holding stick in one place then trim it up
2) stay out of slip -- Step on The Ball
3) avoid high G maneuvers as a matter of routine
4) avoid pulling into stall
3&4 combo) avoid greed for the quick kill, practice better tactics
5) maintain a high enough speed to avoid running with much induced drag

6) in pursuit, fly a lower energy (and generally shorter) path than your quarry

7) manage engine heat wisely, which takes a lot of practice and discretion in the use of:
7a) radiator flaps -- open as little as you need, btw these will keep glancing bullets and shrapnel away from your engine
7b) prop rpm -- 100% all the time means extra heat all the time
7c) power -- use what is necessary, at times you want to build a reserve of 'cool'

8) avoid flat turns -- learn to use the vertical

9) be smo-o-o-o-o-ooth on the stick, especially with the elevator. add a lot of FILTER on the Controls page.

Watch the videos in the FOV and Zoom thread. In both cases the players wax the AI while still pulling extra G's and into
stall (especially Fruitbat) showing well enough that the AI really are not that terribly great. They do little to capitalize
on how cleanly they do fly.

If you can't regularly beat the AI then watch out online, you might not always find a noob playpen errr server.

rfxcasey
06-29-2010, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rfxcasey:
What are the keys to maximizing speed.

One thing that won't help is doing nothing but whine even if it's whine about the AI.

What you can do:

1) keep in trim -- if you're holding stick in one place then trim it up
2) stay out of slip -- Step on The Ball
3) avoid high G maneuvers as a matter of routine
4) avoid pulling into stall
3&4 combo) avoid greed for the quick kill, practice better tactics
5) maintain a high enough speed to avoid running with much induced drag

6) in pursuit, fly a lower energy (and generally shorter) path than your quarry

7) manage engine heat wisely, which takes a lot of practice and discretion in the use of:
7a) radiator flaps -- open as little as you need, btw these will keep glancing bullets and shrapnel away from your engine
7b) prop rpm -- 100% all the time means extra heat all the time
7c) power -- use what is necessary, at times you want to build a reserve of 'cool'

8) avoid flat turns -- learn to use the vertical

9) be smo-o-o-o-o-ooth on the stick, especially with the elevator. add a lot of FILTER on the Controls page.

Watch the videos in the FOV and Zoom thread. In both cases the players wax the AI while still pulling extra G's and into
stall (especially Fruitbat) showing well enough that the AI really are not that terribly great. They do little to capitalize
on how cleanly they do fly.

If you can't regularly beat the AI then watch out online, you might not always find a noob playpen errr server. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I don't exactly think anyone was "whining" per say.

As for me I have no problem taking on 2 vet AI simultaneously given I am in a decent plane that I'm familiar with. But I hadn't touched the P-38 in quite some time and it felt a bit of a dog.

That being said I just started using UP so I don't know if that changes the rules of the road as far a FM, physics, AI or all 3 combined.

M_Gunz
06-29-2010, 09:53 AM
UP does not change the physics. The stock planes fly the same, no?

Spend time just flying the plane while not concentrating on what an enemy is doing. You will find the edges or
you won't, tbh there's players who don't know they stalled until they are spinning, they call spin 'stall'.
Hopefully that's not you. With practice it need not be anyone.

Stall bleed is the biggest difference between a poor player and a good one with use of trim not far behind.

You played a lot of RB? You should know about hard turns, lost speed and ability to zoom!

thefruitbat
06-29-2010, 10:15 AM
I'm not sure i completely agree with you Gunz, while in general what you say is correct.

Take for example the vid i posted. Now that was never actually intended for public consumption and intended to be an example of great flying, it was just a random track i made a vid out of to learn how to do 1080p vids and happened to highlight 6dof and sans on widescreen, and is just a shooting exercise i do often, to keep my eye in, i tend to either fly against 4 normal ai for just shooting practise, or against 2 aces in seperate flights if i want to practise a bit of SA as well as shooting.

In them and in the vid, I'll quite happily trade high g's or approach stall, to give position and a shot, especially in that plane because i know its limits off by heart, and to be honest against the ai you can you can do it all day long, and to me its all about getting to a position where you have a shot, nothing else is important.

I've also been doing quite a lot of duelling (love doing this!) lately, 1 on 1 same plane, online with various pilots from the dogz, and often the fights will come down to stall fighting both in the horizontal and vertical, and it is knowing where the limit is and pushing right up to it but NOT crossing it, that will more often than not get you a shot, or push the other pilot to cross the line, again giving you position and a shot. If i flew these engagements as smooth as i could, i would still be halfway through reversing after the merge when i would be shot down...

Oh, and by the way, planes/physics is exactly the same in UP, the only thing that's different is the ai, slightly different routines, using certificated ai mod i believe. There still just as easy to shoot down though imo.

AllorNothing117
06-29-2010, 11:02 AM
Hey, been there pal, fly the 38 99% of the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Against A.I. you're still faster, it's just alot harder to be. By all means turn overheat off if you want a fair fight and the advice given is sound for staying fast. Trim is the most important advice if you ask me if you can master that, you'll be sorted ^_^

The 38 isn't a dog at all. It's wonderfull, but it take some getting used to after other planes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ba5tard5word
06-29-2010, 11:26 AM
The P-38 is very heavy and slow to build up speed and slow to turn so it's not a great plane to take on AI Zeros. Remember that at sea level a Zero can only go maybe 440 kph and a P-38 should go around 530kph (IIRC) so if you need to get away, just point your nose down a bit and you'll soon speed away from the Zeros. What you'll need to do is fly away then come back and make a pass at them, unfortunately by this point they'll probably be pointed at you and you're either doing a head-on (which the AI will usually win) or having to rake them with deflection fire, which requires more skill than being able to put your reticle at or near the enemy plane. Also the AI for P-38 wingmen is terrible so if you are flying with any they will die very quickly. Zeros are very maneuverable and if they can get on your six they will stay there if you have bled a lot of speed, until you can gather speed and zip away.

To learn how to fight Zeros in general it might be better to fly a Wildcat, which matches them in speed and is more maneuverable and accelerates better than a P-38. Then later on you can go back with a P-38 and try it.

Also something that is fun is a Tempest versus Ki-61 matchup. The Tempest is even faster than a P-38 but bleeds speed like a hemophiliac so you have to make very quick passes against the Ki-61's then speed away from them so they don't gang up on your six and shoot you down. Some of the most intense AI shootouts have been Tempests versus Ki-61's. Usually against a faster plane the AI will roll over and let you demolish them, but not the Ki-61's when you are in a Tempest.

Fogmaster_
06-29-2010, 11:28 AM
If the Zekes are at a higher altitude, I am guessing you are trying to climb and gain on them at the same time.

My advice would be to level off, make sure you slip ball is centered (use rudder trim to fix this)
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/10-22515.jpg

Check your VVI (vertical veloicity indicator) make sure you are at 0 (or level) and try to cut the zekes turns.
http://www.nappf.com/nappf_flight_instruments_files/image005.jpg

It will take some patience but you will eventually start overtaking them. When you feel you have gained a sufficiant speed advantage, increase your Angle of Attack to a point where you are not losing speed but still gaining altitude.

You will find yourself outrunning them in no time!

Also, keep those RPMs behind that red line! In the p38 this generally means 95% prop pitch 95% throttle.

rfxcasey
06-30-2010, 04:51 AM
I have to agree with Fruitbat, mastering slow flight can win the day, save your butt, or both. By the way nice meeting you the other night in the Dogz channel.

In response to Ba5tard5word, I have been flying for several years mostly offline. Quite a bit of squad experience too though this was predominantly co-op. The USN fighters are my forte but I am trying to branch out a bit more to improve myself overall. I have flow hundreds of missions in the Wildcat the thinking being dealing with it's limitations would make me a better pilot and better in the Hellcat later. I also have extensive experience in the F4Us. Naval ops are my bag and carrier landings are cake though the F4U is the trickiest of the lot.

I'm starting to play online more against real players how hopefully with some experience and practice it will bump me up that much more.

While I'm gabbing on about it, I find my biggest enemy to be myself and really have to work on playing things smart. I have a tendency to go full bore to often or get over eager to this day while making a strafing run getting greedy for targets to the point of smacking the ground or pushing a pursuit while I know someone is closing on my 6.

Fogmaster_ I've been at it long enough to know that trying to close and climb is pretty much a practice in futility. I had watched a documentary that stated P-38 pilots would boom and zoom and when being pursued dive for speed then slowly climb back up to altitude and come back for a return visit. I found this make for a very long protracted fight in the 38 though there is really no other way around it. Perhaps I am diving too deep and don't really need as much speed as I am gaining but this all just part of learning the ship I suppose.

VW-IceFire
06-30-2010, 07:42 AM
I find, especially in the P-38, that a less dramatic dive is the key. A shallow dive builds speed rapidly without burning away all of the altitude advantage that you have. Then you can ultimately start to focus on a good climb speed, out climb the Zero and eventually be in a position to turn around. This takes time.

The AI does cheat a bit... but not that much.

rfxcasey
06-30-2010, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I find, especially in the P-38, that a less dramatic dive is the key. A shallow dive builds speed rapidly without burning away all of the altitude advantage that you have. Then you can ultimately start to focus on a good climb speed, out climb the Zero and eventually be in a position to turn around. This takes time.

The AI does cheat a bit... but not that much.

I am thinking you are very correct on this. I'll have to check it out when I get home.

M_Gunz
06-30-2010, 09:22 AM
When you're stuck; really stuck, knowing the slow fight might save you if you're up against someone who isn't good
at tactics which the AI is all that.
Look to history, the history of the Wildcat pilots and the AVG for examples on how to play US vs Japanese tactics.
They did not practice slow fights.

You can go for the 1 or 2 move kill or even play always riding the edge either on immediate attack or evasion but that
will leave you in general slow and lower than you should be with fewer choices.

You wanted the keys to speed, the biggest one is don't waste energy.

Unless that hard turn gives you a high probability of a kill right then, ie not just to turn quick and then see your
situation, don't do it. In most US planes, if the turn is more than 30 or 45 degrees then either change heading some
other way or pass up on it just to keep your speed. That gives you choices and the ability to put yourself in a superior
position, higher or faster or both.

Robert Shaw identifies two kinds of fighter tactics. One is the angles fight and the other is the energy fight. There
is one major connection between those and that is "Energy for Angles". The energy fighter builds an energy reserve,
advantage in speed and/or height and then spends -some- of it for angle here and there until he has the kill but
always either maintain the advantage or extend/exit the fight.
The angles fighter... when you're stuck slow against an enemy who has more speed then your number one game is to get
him to blow it so you two can mudhen it out, all the while knowing or hoping some fast mover doesn't come in and wipe
you out of the sky.

It takes a good bit of learning to become an successful energy fighter even most of the time but it's worth it.
You -have- to get your piloting beyond the bank and yank stage, you -have- to know when you've begun to stall,
you -have- to know alternative moves to pulling hard G's or other energy-wasteful practices.

Example: You need to be going 90 or 180 degrees in some other direction, probably quickly, and you are flying faster
than your best turn speed. You have options.
One is to keep your nose on the horizon, bank and yank for a hard flat turn while watching your speed grind down to
your best turn speed then maybe letting up while patting yourself on the back for 'not getting slow'.
Another is to rise up and then begin your turn while zooming but not pulling the major part until you have slowed to
near but still above your best turn IAS, finishing the turn while on the way down which is quicker than the flat turn
and leaves you at higher speed than your best turn as well.
Yet another is to pull up nearly vertical, roll the top of your plane onto the new heading and pull over the top at
a bit more than your best turn speed (all always IAS) accounting that you will be slowing down throughout the pull.

Of those two alternatives, which is best depends on how much excess speed you have and how large your heading change
needs to be. At no time do you let yourself get slower than best turn speed, or not much slower as at that speed you
have the most ability to dodge shots or use other options to respond to any changes your enemy is making.
Both store energy before the pull, accomplish the pull at a lower speed with corresponding lesser bleed +plus+ the
turn assist from gravity and return the stored height energy on exit. WHY EVER USE A FLAT TURN? if you have a
better turning plane than the one on your tail, using a flat turn may just sucker him into following is when, just hope
he doesn't know how to yoyo or you've had it!

If you fly like a roller coaster, always keeping good speed and never slow at the top then you will always be able
to respond well and at the bottoms of your up and down path will generally have more energy to spend than you will
by flying a flat path. Call it yoyo-flying whether you are circling or not, use loose low-energy barrel rolls to keep
your view coverage moving or to keep an enemy in sight. That is how to get dangerous. Your speed and height always
changing will make you harder to hit by the ones you don't see and you will have more options, higher energy than if
you just tootle along on the flat.
It works in IL2, it works in EAW, it works in RB-any, it works in any sim worth playing.

Practice flying tilted 'loops' (more of an egg shape, wider at the bottom) and see if you don't get a mix of high
energy and good turn between bottom and top that you can't match flying and turning on the flat.

You played RB3D? You know any JG1? Ever ran across Kessler? He's one of the players that taught me all that. I tell
you it works because it does, I know from experience.

BillSwagger
06-30-2010, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
WHY EVER USE A FLAT TURN?

I might only do so when being bounced or if the Zero has a large energy advantage. The better option is to turn with a very shallow dive so that some speed can be maintained. The Zero is better turning but it will quickly lose energy upon doing so, so the idea is to coax the Zero into cutting inside to bleed off their speed advantage. If you dive and turn then the opponent has a better chance of holding speed as they turn with you. A flat turn is more useful to equalize the energy states.
The rule of thumb for me is to not turn more than one revolution with a Zero, and if the maneuver is executed properly it should only require somewhere between a quarter to a half turn. Its more effective against human opponents, as the AI is quick to correct their trajectory, so if you can execute this against veteran/ace AI then you should have frequent success with human opponents.
Experienced human pilots will usually use a yo yo, but the Zero is far too slow to be of concern after a yo yo maneuver unless you are on deck. Another good reason to fly high and fast.


Bill

Ba5tard5word
06-30-2010, 10:50 PM
When you're stuck; really stuck, knowing the slow fight might save you if you're up against someone who isn't good
at tactics which the AI is all that.
Look to history, the history of the Wildcat pilots and the AVG for examples on how to play US vs Japanese tactics.
They did not practice slow fights.

Why do your posts always seem to have you pressing the enter key in the middle of your sentences? It makes them kind of hard to read.

M_Gunz
06-30-2010, 11:36 PM
Just keeping them about as wide as my edit window. Some people just type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and then I end up with a slider at the bottom of the window I have to move to read the whole sentence.

I can make the sentences wider so it might bother someone else.

Maybe it's a browser thing?

Maybe it doesn't bother me because I read books and newspapers that don't have foot-wide text columns?

Sillius_Sodus
07-01-2010, 01:10 AM
I try to never go below 250mph (IAS) in the P-38. It's not too hard to maintain 300mph IAS, which will make you very hard to kill. The AI Zeke and/or Oscar will not be able to follow you in a shallow climb, i.e. 500fpm @ 300mph, which is easy to do in a P-38.

The nose mounted guns also make it easier to get hits at longer range (300+m).

Ba5tard5word
07-01-2010, 01:22 AM
Just keeping them about as wide as my edit window. Some people just type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and type and then I end up with a slider at the bottom of the window I have to move to read the whole sentence.

Ok, I've seen that happen when I use a small monitor...but if you can keep typing without hitting Enter and the text stays on your screen then wraps around without spilling over, I'm not sure why you would need to do it since you can't control what people with giant monitors do...I dunno, it's up to you.

M_Gunz
07-01-2010, 07:16 AM
I'll give it a try then. Got a widescreen but the formatting habit is from the old days.

Waldo.Pepper
07-01-2010, 04:19 PM
http://image.motortrend.com/f/8500686+w750/112_0601_14z_bugatti_veyron_16_4_coupe_second_key. jpg

The literal 'keys' to speed.