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dewgel
12-21-2011, 12:23 PM
I've not seen this discussed yet, although I might be wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...index=1&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McbeMLNLrx4&list=UUGOwpo3-z1yk93oPjZGVWXg&index=1&feature=plcp)

This really interested me. I'm guessing what Turkey's saying is that 16 has embedded what knowledge he had of the Animus into Desmond.

Like, a part of 16 has parasited itself onto him. This may be how Desmond will access ancestors now, as he's got a bit of the Animus / 16 inside him.

Makes alot of sense to me and I like how it looks.

Discuss. Or else.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 12:46 PM
I'm sorry no. If you pay close attention to the video you see that after/while S16 is disappearing there's a circle around Desmond within which nothing is getting deleted. S16 was clearly creating some sort of protection for desmond during his last few moments.

At this point I see no reason for Desmond to have S16 in his mind. They already have an animus so there's no need for S16 to fulfill that purpose.

roostersrule2
12-21-2011, 01:31 PM
Maybe, however it's a long shot and unlikely but maybe that's what Jupiter meant when he said put what's in your head in your hands although he probably was referring to the vault.

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
I'm sorry no. If you pay close attention to the video you see that after/while S16 is disappearing there's a circle around Desmond within which nothing is getting deleted. S16 was clearly creating some sort of protection for desmond during his last few moments.

At this point I see no reason for Desmond to have S16 in his mind. They already have an animus so there's no need for S16 to fulfill that purpose.

And his arm at the end of AC:R how do you explain that?...it has the same symbols on it when S16 protects him. And no need for S16 anymore? come on...He had o lot more knowledge as Desmond (remember the truth puzzles and the conversation in AC:B?).I think the proof is that he didn't explain ANYTHING in AC:R so his knowledge could be of good use in AC3.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
I'm sorry no. If you pay close attention to the video you see that after/while S16 is disappearing there's a circle around Desmond within which nothing is getting deleted. S16 was clearly creating some sort of protection for desmond during his last few moments.

At this point I see no reason for Desmond to have S16 in his mind. They already have an animus so there's no need for S16 to fulfill that purpose.

And his arm at the end of AC:R how do you explain that?...it has the same symbols on it when S16 protects him. And no need for S16 anymore? come on...He had o lot more knowledge as Desmond (remember the truth puzzles and the conversation in AC:B?).I think the proof is that he didn't explain ANYTHING in AC:R so his knowledge could be of good use in AC3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are you talking about? There are no symbols when he protects them. Those are cracks just like on all the other structures on Animus island showing it's being deleted. The symbols in Desmond's arm are much different and strongly resemble those of TWCB artifacts and structures and since the apple is glowing at the same time Desmond's arm is, it's quite clear that that is related to his glowing arm.

S16 is dead. Get over it.

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
I'm sorry no. If you pay close attention to the video you see that after/while S16 is disappearing there's a circle around Desmond within which nothing is getting deleted. S16 was clearly creating some sort of protection for desmond during his last few moments.

At this point I see no reason for Desmond to have S16 in his mind. They already have an animus so there's no need for S16 to fulfill that purpose.

And his arm at the end of AC:R how do you explain that?...it has the same symbols on it when S16 protects him. And no need for S16 anymore? come on...He had o lot more knowledge as Desmond (remember the truth puzzles and the conversation in AC:B?).I think the proof is that he didn't explain ANYTHING in AC:R so his knowledge could be of good use in AC3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are you talking about? There are no symbols when he protects them. Those are cracks just like on all the other structures on Animus island showing it's being deleted. The symbols in Desmond's arm are much different and strongly resemble those of TWCB artifacts and structures and since the apple is glowing at the same time Desmond's arm is, it's quite clear that that is related to his glowing arm.

S16 is dead. Get over it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you be so sure.
I never saw Ezio and Altair with the "cracks" on their arms...
And 16 was already dead before revelations so don't act like the wise guy. Why could his consiousness be in the animus and his knowledge not in Desmonds body?

SolidSage
12-21-2011, 02:21 PM
That was pretty good. I don't go in much for fan created conspiracy theories, but there could be something to this. Might add something to the next game if there was, 16 has been such a long running character.
Nice little vid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LightRey
12-21-2011, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
How can you be so sure.
I never saw Ezio and Altair with the "cracks" on their arms...
And 16 was already dead before revelations so don't act like the wise guy. Why could his consiousness be in the animus and not in Desmonds body?
Of course you didn't see Ezio or Alta´r with cracks on their arms. They were never deleted.

Seriously come on. Look at the video. You see the same cracks all over the place, on every structure. And if you had paid any attention to the symbols found in the vaults and shown by PoE's, you'd have clearly seen they are completely different from the cracks, while the symbols very much resemble the symbols on Desmond's arm.

It wasn't S16's consciousness in the animus, it was a simulation of it. The animus simulates cognitive processes.

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
How can you be so sure.
I never saw Ezio and Altair with the "cracks" on their arms...
And 16 was already dead before revelations so don't act like the wise guy. Why could his consiousness be in the animus and not in Desmonds body?
Of course you didn't see Ezio or Alta´r with cracks on their arms. They were never deleted.

Seriously come on. Look at the video. You see the same cracks all over the place, on every structure. And if you had paid any attention to the symbols found in the vaults and shown by PoE's, you'd have clearly seen they are completely different.

It wasn't S16's consciousness in the animus, it was a simulation of it. The animus simulates cognitive processes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok let me get this clear...
I've played every AC game so don't be a smartass.
Ofcourse i know the symbols on his arm are not the symbols from the vaults and the POE's....did you hear me say that? I just said it were the same symbols/signs/cracks or whatever you would like to call them as they are apearing when S16 holds Desmond.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
How can you be so sure.
I never saw Ezio and Altair with the "cracks" on their arms...
And 16 was already dead before revelations so don't act like the wise guy. Why could his consiousness be in the animus and not in Desmonds body?
Of course you didn't see Ezio or Alta´r with cracks on their arms. They were never deleted.

Seriously come on. Look at the video. You see the same cracks all over the place, on every structure. And if you had paid any attention to the symbols found in the vaults and shown by PoE's, you'd have clearly seen they are completely different.

It wasn't S16's consciousness in the animus, it was a simulation of it. The animus simulates cognitive processes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok let me get this clear...
I've played every AC game so don't be a smartass.
Ofcourse i know the symbols on his arm are not the symbols from the vaults and the POE's....did you hear me say that? I just said it were the same symbols/signs/cracks or whatever you would like to call them as they are apearing when S16 holds Desmond. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I mean the exact opposite of what you're saying. It is very clear that the symbols on Desmond's arm look very much like the symbols shown by the apples and in the vaults. It's the cracks that do not at all look similar to them.

SolidSage
12-21-2011, 02:34 PM
@LightRey
You're being. Bit cut and dry about this. Desmond's conciousness exists inside the Animus, it's not a replication, so why couldn't 16's? I thought that's exactly what did happen myself. Plus, the Black Room/Island isn't the actual program right, it's the loading area or whatever, OUTSIDE the memory play back.
And even though the things on Desmonds arm are different than the hug images, who knows what 16 piggybacking in his mind would cause as a physocal manifestation, especially since the Animus was USED to do it.

Open minds don't always lead to drafty interiors.

SolidSage
12-21-2011, 02:39 PM
man, you guys must be responding too fast, it didn't take my first reesponse so I wrote a new one and now the first one is here. Whatev, I'ma leave it.

@LightRey
You're being a bit cut and dry about this. Desmond's real conciousness exists inside the Animus, why can't 16's? That's exactly what I thought they told us. The memories are the recreation area, not the Island/Black room, that's a load out area right?
The cracks and symbols looking different doesn't mean that much in this situation really, who knows how 16 piggybacking on Desmond's mind would physically manifest. He used the Animus to do it (if he DID do it), so symbology present IN it would make sense.

It's not like Ubi didn't put the idea in our heads anyway with 16's little speech.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
@LightRey
You're being. Bit cut and dry about this. Desmond's conciousness exists inside the Animus, it's not a replication, so why couldn't 16's? I thought that's exactly what did happen myself. Plus, the Black Room/Island isn't the actual program right, it's the loading area or whatever, OUTSIDE the memory play back.
And even though the things on Desmonds arm are different than the hug images, who knows what 16 piggybacking in his mind would cause as a physocal manifestation, especially since the Animus was USED to do it.

Open minds don't always lead to drafty interiors.
It doesn't exist inside the animus, it's a simulation of his thoughts inside the animus. It's literally said by Rebecca that the animus "was not built to simulate cognitive function", so she had to free up space for it to be able to do so. Furthermore, it was said by several people that S16 in ACR was merely an "imprint" of his actual self. He wasn't a complete consciousness, just a simulation of it with no body to send data back to.

It's a slight possibility, nothing more. This entire theory is built on nothing but assumptions and equally vague theories.

InfectedNation
12-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Cmon the guy has a point, and yes there's been a thread about this but that doesn't matter.

Anyway I would surprised if 16 didn't "inject" something into Desmond, if you think about how much he wanted to leave, how much knowledge he still has to give and his speech on a man being the sum of his memories (just before he saves Desmond) - It seems to suggest that 16's role in the story is far from over.

Besides if we weren't gonna see him again then Ubisoft have made a big mistake in the story - Anticlimax much?

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 02:43 PM
@ lightray I think you're the one that needs to take a closer look...When he grabs Desmond there are appearing some kind of molecule like symbols around his arms, the same that are on Desmonds arm at the end. it are the same symbols that appear when you are in the animus loading screen. and they are not everywhere when animus island get's deleted, only around his arms and Desmond's back for a brief moment.

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 02:46 PM
I mean the exact opposite of what you're saying. It is very clear that the symbols on Desmond's arm look very much like the symbols shown by the apples and in the vaults. It's the cracks that do not at all look similar to them.
No, it are the symbols from the animus loading screen.

SolidSage
12-21-2011, 02:48 PM
@LightReu
Well, the Theory is what's being discussed and fleshed out here, so maybe you could use your excellent memory to find a way to make it feasible and less vague, and THEN, shoot it to pieces.
Just for the purpose of intelligent discourse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by InfectedNation:
Cmon the guy has a point, and yes there's been a thread about this but that doesn't matter.

Anyway I would surprised if 16 didn't "inject" something into Desmond, if you think about how much he wanted to leave, how much knowledge he still has to give and his speech on a man being the sum of his memories (just before he saves Desmond) - It seems to suggest that 16's role in the story is far from over.

Besides if we weren't gonna see him again then Ubisoft have made a big mistake in the story - Anticlimax much?

exactly

LightRey
12-21-2011, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
@ lightray I think you're the one that needs to take a closer look...When he grabs Desmond there are appearing some kind of molecule like symbols around his arms, the same that are on Desmonds arm at the end. it are the same symbols that appear when you are in the animus loading screen. and they are not everywhere when animus island get's deleted, only around his arms and Desmond's back for a brief moment.
Seriously they are completely different. There are no symbols on S16's arms. Those "miniscule symbols" are glowing bits of his arm that are being deleted. For Christ's sake look at the animation. He literally turns into such little bits of glowing, well, bits.

The symbols on Desmond's arm as can be seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2mdxGQb2OI) around 12:24, are almost exactly the same as the symbols on the ceiling of for example, Minerva's vault, seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ansjCUzhdLM) around 1:10. The thickness of the lines is the same everywhere, and the lines are straight and form geometric symbols like squares, hexagons, etc.

The "symbols" on S16 are little dots of random shapes. Any distinguishable "lines" have uneven thicknesses. They are nothing like the symbols on Desmond's arm.


Originally posted by SolidSage:
@LightReu
Well, the Theory is what's being discussed and fleshed out here, so maybe you could use your excellent memory to find a way to make it feasible and less vague, and THEN, shoot it to pieces.
Just for the purpose of intelligent discourse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
I'm telling you as it is. This theory has nothing solid to support it and that is final. Stick with Occam's Razor.

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 03:02 PM
the symbols on Desmond's arm look very much like the symbols shown by the apples and in the vaults. It's the cracks that do not at all look similar to them. The symbols from the apples are totally different...but the symbols on the pilars in the vaults kinda look like it yeah...the symbols on the pilars and in the animus loading screen look very similar.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> the symbols on Desmond's arm look very much like the symbols shown by the apples and in the vaults. It's the cracks that do not at all look similar to them. The symbols from the apples are totally different...but the symbols of the pilars in the vault kinda look like it yeah...the symbols on the pilars and in the animus loading screen look very similar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those pillars only appear in the loading screen when loading an Alta´r memory. They're clearly indicative of TWCB tech.

B_Crispino
12-21-2011, 03:05 PM
Wow yeah! I had this on my mind for a while now, didnt notice those lights in his arms, though... if he is right, my theory about the two reconstructed pillars being S16's memories would make total sense

misterB2001
12-21-2011, 03:10 PM
the pattern/lines when subject 16 grabs Desmond are completely different to the glowing pattern on Desmonds arm when he wakes up.

Jupiter said take my words, pass them from your head into your hands.

desmond wakes to find the apple glowing and the same pattern glowing on his arm

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 03:19 PM
Seriously they are completely different. There are no symbols on S16's arms. Those "miniscule symbols" are glowing bits of his arm that are being deleted. For Christ's sake look at the animation. He literally turns into such little bits of glowing, well, bits.

The symbols on Desmond's arm as can be seen here around 12:24, are almost exactly the same as the symbols on the ceiling of for example, Minerva's vault, seen here around 1:10. The thickness of the lines is the same everywhere, and the lines are straight and form geometric symbols like squares, hexagons, etc.

The "symbols" on S16 are little dots of random shapes. Any distinguishable "lines" have uneven thicknesses. They are nothing like the symbols on Desmond's arm.

Good point http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Yeah it looks like the symbols on his arm are from TWCB symbols.
But still, i don't mean the bits and dots on S16's arms but around them, on Desmonds body. They are not totally random it also has some patterns. Like the symbols in the animus loading screen.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by misterB2001:
the pattern/lines when subject 16 grabs Desmond are completely different to the glowing pattern on Desmonds arm when he wakes up.

Jupiter said take my words, pass them from your head into your hands.

desmond wakes to find the apple glowing and the same pattern glowing on his arm
Thank you for speaking sense.

B_Crispino
12-21-2011, 03:44 PM
It doesnt make sense... subject 16 didnt reveal anything about the stuff he hid in the animus... and then he just... vanishes? i am forced to believe he didnt

lukaszep
12-21-2011, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by B_Crispino:
It doesnt make sense... subject 16 didnt reveal anything about the stuff he hid in the animus... and then he just... vanishes? i am forced to believe he didnt

That my friend, is the product of a 1 year production cycle.

B_Crispino
12-21-2011, 04:13 PM
but... to forget about the past 3 games... isnt it a little radical?

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by B_Crispino:
but... to forget about the past 3 games... isnt it a little radical?
Yeah it is...the subject 16 part felt kinda rushed. but maybe they don't want to go into the conspiracy stuff anymore because people will think they are "conspiracy buff" (stupid world).

lukaszep
12-21-2011, 04:50 PM
I think the answers to some of the questions raised by S16 will be answered indirectly. So without coming from him, or talking about him. In fact some already have at the end of AC:R.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by B_Crispino:
It doesnt make sense... subject 16 didnt reveal anything about the stuff he hid in the animus... and then he just... vanishes? i am forced to believe he didnt
There wasn't much left to reveal besides the Adam and Eve stuff and that was just an animus recording, meaning that there could very well not be much more to The Truth than that video.

B_Crispino
12-21-2011, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B_Crispino:
It doesnt make sense... subject 16 didnt reveal anything about the stuff he hid in the animus... and then he just... vanishes? i am forced to believe he didnt
There wasn't much left to reveal besides the Adam and Eve stuff and that was just an animus recording, meaning that there could very well not be much more to The Truth than that video. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is that ****load of conspiracy, he could explain that better. There is that stuff about finding eve too... the point is: S16 seems to know what desmond should do and he doesnt say anything on the game... it's really frustrating

LightRey
12-21-2011, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by B_Crispino:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B_Crispino:
It doesnt make sense... subject 16 didnt reveal anything about the stuff he hid in the animus... and then he just... vanishes? i am forced to believe he didnt
There wasn't much left to reveal besides the Adam and Eve stuff and that was just an animus recording, meaning that there could very well not be much more to The Truth than that video. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is that ****load of conspiracy, he could explain that better. There is that stuff about finding eve too... the point is: S16 seems to know what desmond should do and he doesnt say anything on the game... it's really frustrating </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're assuming much based on a few vague sentences.

B_Crispino
12-21-2011, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B_Crispino:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B_Crispino:
It doesnt make sense... subject 16 didnt reveal anything about the stuff he hid in the animus... and then he just... vanishes? i am forced to believe he didnt
There wasn't much left to reveal besides the Adam and Eve stuff and that was just an animus recording, meaning that there could very well not be much more to The Truth than that video. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is that ****load of conspiracy, he could explain that better. There is that stuff about finding eve too... the point is: S16 seems to know what desmond should do and he doesnt say anything on the game... it's really frustrating </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're assuming much based on a few vague sentences. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you say so...

De Filosoof
12-21-2011, 06:06 PM
There is that ****load of conspiracy, he could explain that better. There is that stuff about finding eve too... the point is: S16 seems to know what desmond should do and he doesnt say anything on the game... it's really frustrating
This!! I guess we will have more answers about Eve in AC3, But it didn't make any sense.
In that part where subject 16 couldn't talk much about eve and "the son" because he didn't had much energy. And when you are are meeting him on animus island he is just chillin' on the ground most of the time, like nothing ever happened.

SolidSage
12-21-2011, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SolidSage:
@LightReu
Well, the Theory is what's being discussed and fleshed out here, so maybe you could use your excellent memory to find a way to make it feasible and less vague, and THEN, shoot it to pieces.
Just for the purpose of intelligent discourse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


I'm telling you as it is. This theory has nothing solid to support it and that is final. Stick with Occam's Razor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other than Subject 16 specifically stating the possibility himself, and that, being included in the game and script by Ubi devs intentionally, you mean.

"Nothing solid" is an offhanded effort at dismissing a valid argument simply because it doesn't align with your own view on the subject, which may well be correct. You asserting that to be the case is as far from actual fact, as any of the other random musings stated on this forum, until clarified by the next installment. It may be an effective method for dealing with individuals that aren't in possession of sound logic and reason, or equipped well enough to argue their position effectively, but to me, it only identifies your qualifications to become an excellent Politician.

'Occam's razor' means nothing to me.

LightRey
12-22-2011, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SolidSage:
@LightReu
Well, the Theory is what's being discussed and fleshed out here, so maybe you could use your excellent memory to find a way to make it feasible and less vague, and THEN, shoot it to pieces.
Just for the purpose of intelligent discourse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


I'm telling you as it is. This theory has nothing solid to support it and that is final. Stick with Occam's Razor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other than Subject 16 specifically stating the possibility himself, and that, being included in the game and script by Ubi devs intentionally, you mean.

"Nothing solid" is an offhanded effort at dismissing a valid argument simply because it doesn't align with your own view on the subject, which may well be correct. You asserting that to be the case is as far from actual fact, as any of the other random musings stated on this forum, until clarified by the next installment. It may be an effective method for dealing with individuals that aren't in possession of sound logic and reason, or equipped well enough to argue their position effectively, but to me, it only identifies your qualifications to become an excellent Politician.

'Occam's razor' means nothing to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sticking with Occam's Razor means going with the option that requires the least assumptions, since most often that is the right answer. The more assumptions a theory requires the less likely it is to be true.

For this theory we need to assume that:
1. S16 did not get deleted
2. S16 would go with Desmond against his will
3. S16 could go with Desmond against his will
4. The symbols on Desmond's arm at the end match those on S16 during the deletion of Animus Island
5. S16 being in Desmond's head can affect things visible on his arm
6. Desmond's arm glowing has nothing to do with what Jupiter said: "take my words, pass them from your head into your hands"
7. for some reason whatever S16 is doing has something to do with TWCB, because the symbols on Desmond's arm clearly have something to do with their temples
8. Probably most importantly, that the presence of merely one hint that this might happen, even though it was clearly used as a dramatic setup for something that occurred later in the game, is enough for the devs to choose to build such a story on

Anything that was brought up by this ACTurkey that supposedly supports his theory, can easily be attributed to something else, as I have shown in my posts in this thread.

That whole conversation between him and Desmond about him going with him was a setup for when Animus island got deleted, causing the player to fear that S16 was betraying Desmond, while he was actually saving him. It was there to create dramatic effect, nothing more. Stop trying to overthink these things.

Now tell me, what exactly is there, that is actually solid evidence that supports this theory above any other?

SolidSage
12-22-2011, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SolidSage:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SolidSage:
@LightReu
Well, the Theory is what's being discussed and fleshed out here, so maybe you could use your excellent memory to find a way to make it feasible and less vague, and THEN, shoot it to pieces.
Just for the purpose of intelligent discourse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


I'm telling you as it is. This theory has nothing solid to support it and that is final. Stick with Occam's Razor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other than Subject 16 specifically stating the possibility himself, and that, being included in the game and script by Ubi devs intentionally, you mean.

"Nothing solid" is an offhanded effort at dismissing a valid argument simply because it doesn't align with your own view on the subject, which may well be correct. You asserting that to be the case is as far from actual fact, as any of the other random musings stated on this forum, until clarified by the next installment. It may be an effective method for dealing with individuals that aren't in possession of sound logic and reason, or equipped well enough to argue their position effectively, but to me, it only identifies your qualifications to become an excellent Politician.

'Occam's razor' means nothing to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sticking with Occam's Razor means going with the option that requires the least assumptions, since most often that is the right answer. The more assumptions a theory requires the less likely it is to be true.

For this theory we need to assume that:
1. S16 did not get deleted
2. S16 would go with Desmond against his will
3. S16 could go with Desmond against his will
4. The symbols on Desmond's arm at the end match those on S16 during the deletion of Animus Island
5. S16 being in Desmond's head can affect things visible on his arm
6. Desmond's arm glowing has nothing to do with what Jupiter said: "take my words, pass them from your head into your hands"
7. for some reason whatever S16 is doing has something to do with TWCB, because the symbols on Desmond's arm clearly have something to do with their temples
8. Probably most importantly, that the presence of merely one hint that this might happen, even though it was clearly used as a dramatic setup for something that occurred later in the game, is enough for the devs to choose to build such a story on

Anything that was brought up by this ACTurkey that supposedly supports his theory, can easily be attributed to something else, as I have shown in my posts in this thread.

That whole conversation between him and Desmond about him going with him was a setup for when Animus island got deleted, causing the player to fear that S16 was betraying Desmond, while he was actually saving him. It was there to create dramatic effect, nothing more. Stop trying to overthink these things.

Now tell me, what exactly is there, that is actually solid evidence that supports this theory above any other? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, "most of the time, the simplest answer is most likely the truth"?, yes I agree with that.
But, in media of this kind, simple is not always what they go for.

Anyway, I think you are making too many assumptions by assuming that we have to make all those assumptions in order for the basic foundation of the theory to hold any water. That being, Subject 16 or his knowledge merging with Desmond in some fashion.

What we DO know:

- Subject 16 is likely the most well versed user/inhabitant of the Animus. His education of Desmond in it's use supports this.
- HE seems to believe a piggy back is possible, and he verbalizes so.
- He also apparently believes he COULD do it against Desmond's will, when he states that "I already had my chance" or something to that effect.

The other specifics are not necessary for a "piggy back" actually occurring to be quite possible.
By this I mean, the marking on Desmond's arm that are being discussed, don't have to have anything to do with 16 mentally hitchhiking at all. Not every specific of a theory has to be correct for parts of it to be correct. I won't waste time arguing them all, my angle, is only that IT might well have actually happened. In fact, that decision, could be being made right now for all we know, by writers.

What we don't have, is enough irrefutable solid evidence to assure that this wasn't the case. Although, as I have stated previously, your view may well be correct. I'm not debating what IS, but what MAY, and COULD EASILY, be.
I'm not going to be baited in to trying to PROVE a theory as correct when it is obviously impossible to do so with the available information. I AM going to debate, that it is ALSO impossible, to prove the theory, or parts of it, as incorrect.

-

dewgel
12-22-2011, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
I'm sorry no. If you pay close attention to the video you see that after/while S16 is disappearing there's a circle around Desmond within which nothing is getting deleted. S16 was clearly creating some sort of protection for desmond during his last few moments.

At this point I see no reason for Desmond to have S16 in his mind. They already have an animus so there's no need for S16 to fulfill that purpose.

And his arm at the end of AC:R how do you explain that?...it has the same symbols on it when S16 protects him. And no need for S16 anymore? come on...He had o lot more knowledge as Desmond (remember the truth puzzles and the conversation in AC:B?).I think the proof is that he didn't explain ANYTHING in AC:R so his knowledge could be of good use in AC3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are you talking about? There are no symbols when he protects them. Those are cracks just like on all the other structures on Animus island showing it's being deleted. The symbols in Desmond's arm are much different and strongly resemble those of TWCB artifacts and structures and since the apple is glowing at the same time Desmond's arm is, it's quite clear that that is related to his glowing arm.

S16 is dead. Get over it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lightrey, I haven't read the rest of this topic to see your replies but do me a favour and stop replying to this topic mate. Your replies are so dry and you always act like you're right.

We're here to discuss this, I'm not trying to make you believe that this is true, it's just my opinion. The way you reply in every topic is getting annoying, it's constantly "No, you're wrong. I'm right. End of"

That said, I'll read the rest of the replies. Thanks.

Inorganic9_2
12-22-2011, 12:51 PM
This thing about there not being anything for 16 to tell Desmond....he could well start explaining whatever it was he didn't have enough energy to say in Brotherhood!

MaKaVeLiTL
12-22-2011, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by dewgel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
I'm sorry no. If you pay close attention to the video you see that after/while S16 is disappearing there's a circle around Desmond within which nothing is getting deleted. S16 was clearly creating some sort of protection for desmond during his last few moments.

At this point I see no reason for Desmond to have S16 in his mind. They already have an animus so there's no need for S16 to fulfill that purpose.

And his arm at the end of AC:R how do you explain that?...it has the same symbols on it when S16 protects him. And no need for S16 anymore? come on...He had o lot more knowledge as Desmond (remember the truth puzzles and the conversation in AC:B?).I think the proof is that he didn't explain ANYTHING in AC:R so his knowledge could be of good use in AC3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are you talking about? There are no symbols when he protects them. Those are cracks just like on all the other structures on Animus island showing it's being deleted. The symbols in Desmond's arm are much different and strongly resemble those of TWCB artifacts and structures and since the apple is glowing at the same time Desmond's arm is, it's quite clear that that is related to his glowing arm.

S16 is dead. Get over it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lightrey, I haven't read the rest of this topic to see your replies but do me a favour and stop replying to this topic mate. Your replies are so dry and you always act like you're right.

We're here to discuss this, I'm not trying to make you believe that this is true, it's just my opinion. The way you reply in every topic is getting annoying, it's constantly "No, you're wrong. I'm right. End of"

That said, I'll read the rest of the replies. Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haven't you learned yet he is always right no matter what anyone else says?

I think it's quite a decent theory.

StrokeMyBeagle
12-22-2011, 04:36 PM
Lightrey has got the right idea, especially with the occam's razor thing. There are too many things which this theory relies on for it to be true, and quite simply, if this turned up in AC3 I'd be pretty disappointed. We already had the shock of discovering that he's still alive in ACB, and I'd rather not go through that sort of thing again.

LightRey
12-22-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
Oh, "most of the time, the simplest answer is most likely the truth"?, yes I agree with that.
But, in media of this kind, simple is not always what they go for.

No, that is something different. I'm not talking about simple answers, I'm talking about solutions that require the least assumptions. Though those often are the simpler answers, they're not by far always the simplest.


Originally posted by SolidSage:
Anyway, I think you are making too many assumptions by assuming that we have to make all those assumptions in order for the basic foundation of the theory to hold any water. That being, Subject 16 or his knowledge merging with Desmond in some fashion.

Even if I'd scrap the assumptions that'd leave the bare ones needed for S16 to have
"hopped" on along with Desmond, that'd still leave half the assumptions I listed. These all opposed to the single assumption of S16 simply having been deleted needed for the alternative.


Originally posted by SolidSage:
What we DO know:

- Subject 16 is likely the most well versed user/inhabitant of the Animus. His education of Desmond in it's use supports this.
- HE seems to believe a piggy back is possible, and he verbalizes so.
- He also apparently believes he COULD do it against Desmond's will, when he states that "I already had my chance" or something to that effect.

-Since we barely know anything about the previous subjects, that is still quite the assumption.
-He does, but nothing else concerning the theoretical benefits that have been suggested are hinted at at all, which is something worth noting considering that would have helped S16 pursuade Desmond.
-Eh, no. That was pertaining to him having had the chance to find his own sync nexus before he died. He did so after he died, but because he didn't know it could be done while he was alive he killed himself and in saying that he expressed his regret.


Originally posted by SolidSage:
The other specifics are not necessary for a "piggy back" actually occurring to be quite possible.
By this I mean, the marking on Desmond's arm that are being discussed, don't have to have anything to do with 16 mentally hitchhiking at all. Not every specific of a theory has to be correct for parts of it to be correct. I won't waste time arguing them all, my angle, is only that IT might well have actually happened. In fact, that decision, could be being made right now for all we know, by writers.

Thing is, we're discussing the theory posed by ACTurkey and the OP, not the basic concept of it being possible for S16 to go with Desmond. Regardless, S16's proposition very much seemed to have been an act of desperation. I find it very likely that in reality he would have had no clue how to actually accomplish going with Desmond. He was clearly depressed and wanted to leave the Animus. That would have been enough for him to have thought of anything he could possibly do.


Originally posted by SolidSage:
What we don't have, is enough irrefutable solid evidence to assure that this wasn't the case. Although, as I have stated previously, your view may well be correct. I'm not debating what IS, but what MAY, and COULD EASILY, be.
I'm not going to be baited in to trying to PROVE a theory as correct when it is obviously impossible to do so with the available information. I AM going to debate, that it is ALSO impossible, to prove the theory, or parts of it, as incorrect.
-
The thing is, the ones proposing the theory are the ones with the burden of evidence, not the ones trying to refute it. If what you're suggesting would be done in science, all theories that could not be disproved, which is a lot (an infinite amount in fact), would be considered valid.
Besides, I'm not saying it's incorrect, I'm saying it's unlikely, very unlikely in fact.

A good, reliable theory is based on solid evidence, not other theories and assumptions.

Let me put it as the scientific community generally puts it:
Solid evidence or it (very likely) didn't happen.


Originally posted by StrokeMyBeagle:
Lightrey has got the right idea, especially with the occam's razor thing. There are too many things which this theory relies on for it to be true, and quite simply, if this turned up in AC3 I'd be pretty disappointed. We already had the shock of discovering that he's still alive in ACB, and I'd rather not go through that sort of thing again.
Thank you. I'm all for discussing the theory in itself, but the fact of the matter is that this theory just isn't likely at all. I have nothing against discussing the possible impact on the story if this theory were to be true, even in part, but people claiming this theory is even remotely reliable are fooling themselves and others.

B_Crispino
12-22-2011, 07:01 PM
weird to treat a thought about a game as a scientific theory but what the hell... if you say so... haha

LightRey
12-22-2011, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by B_Crispino:
weird to treat a thought about a game as a scientific theory but what the hell... if you say so... haha
I like to do so. Of course one has to keep in mind that it's a game, not real life, so with every theory that aspect has to be taken into account, but science has a very effective system for in checking the reliability of theories, which makes it very useful to apply to this.

phoenix-force411
12-22-2011, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
@ lightray I think you're the one that needs to take a closer look...When he grabs Desmond there are appearing some kind of molecule like symbols around his arms, the same that are on Desmonds arm at the end. it are the same symbols that appear when you are in the animus loading screen. and they are not everywhere when animus island get's deleted, only around his arms and Desmond's back for a brief moment.
Seriously they are completely different. There are no symbols on S16's arms. Those "miniscule symbols" are glowing bits of his arm that are being deleted. For Christ's sake look at the animation. He literally turns into such little bits of glowing, well, bits.

The symbols on Desmond's arm as can be seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2mdxGQb2OI) around 12:24, are almost exactly the same as the symbols on the ceiling of for example, Minerva's vault, seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ansjCUzhdLM) around 1:10. The thickness of the lines is the same everywhere, and the lines are straight and form geometric symbols like squares, hexagons, etc.

The "symbols" on S16 are little dots of random shapes. Any distinguishable "lines" have uneven thicknesses. They are nothing like the symbols on Desmond's arm.


Originally posted by SolidSage:
@LightReu
Well, the Theory is what's being discussed and fleshed out here, so maybe you could use your excellent memory to find a way to make it feasible and less vague, and THEN, shoot it to pieces.
Just for the purpose of intelligent discourse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
I'm telling you as it is. This theory has nothing solid to support it and that is final. Stick with Occam's Razor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I agree with you. I have looked at it just once, and the symbols are the same as what appears on the walls of TWCB's temples or vaults. Desmond looks at Ezio's apple right after looking at his arm glowing the symbols. And also, because he's near the central vault as well! :-)

B_Crispino
12-22-2011, 07:41 PM
Just for fun, I'll try to challenge your Occam's Razor. With life itself... Do life really exists? To a positive answer, one will confirm that the most unlikely of events had to happen so that life could become a real thing, the odds are so against it and the conditions are so numerous that it would be much easier to say that, in fact, life doesnt exists... we are all but.. nothing? To that be true, only one premise is made, and that is that nothing exists.

Kinda fallacious, but anyway...

B_Crispino
12-22-2011, 07:41 PM
haha that was completely out of topic by the way

SolidSage
12-22-2011, 07:55 PM
Hmm, all the bold inserts make it difficult to read. Sorry about that.


Originally posted by LightRey:

-Since we barely know anything about the previous subjects, that is still quite the assumption.
Not really. 16 is the only other subject we have been introduced to in the series, he has been leading Desmond by the nose since day one. Yes, other not yet revealed characters may have more experience, but since they have not yet had any part to play in Desmond's story, it is as accurate an assumption as can be made about anything in this game.
-He does, but nothing else concerning the theoretical benefits that have been suggested are hinted at at all, which is something worth noting considering that would have helped S16 pursuade Desmond.
The only benefit for 16, would appear to be 16 leaving the Animus. Continuing that angle probably wouldn't have persuaded Desmond any further.
-Eh, no. That was pertaining to him having had the chance to find his own sync nexus before he died. He did so after he died, but because he didn't know it could be done while he was alive he killed himself and in saying that he expressed his regret.
You seem very sure about this ASSUMPTION. I didn't take it that way at all. 16 was talking about piggybacking when he said the next sentence to himself almost, why would he have jumped to another train of thought? The simpler answer is that he was referring to what he had JUST suggested to Desmond and been shot down on.

Thing is, we're discussing the theory posed by ACTurkey and the OP, not the basic concept of it being possible for S16 to go with Desmond. Regardless, S16's proposition very much seemed to have been an act of desperation. I find it very likely that in reality he would have had no clue how to actually accomplish going with Desmond. He was clearly depressed and wanted to leave the Animus. That would have been enough for him to have thought of anything he could possibly do.
No, YOU are discussing the entire theory as posted. I am discussing the parts of it that I find to be more plausible than the whole. There aren't any rules or laws as to having to accept an entire theory or none at all, or the discussion that follows. At least, none that I am bound by.
16 was depressed and a loon and could easily have been deluded. Assuming he didn't know how to leave with Desmond is just that though. Your argument implies that he certainly knew how to delete himself. He also knew what Desmond needed to due to reconstruct his mind. He knew a lot, as shown throughout the series, why so sure that this one particular aspect would be unknown? Again, not why, but why SO sure?


The thing is, the ones proposing the theory are the ones with the burden of evidence, not the ones trying to refute it. If what you're suggesting would be done in science, all theories that could not be disproved, which is a lot (an infinite amount in fact), would be considered valid.
Besides, I'm not saying it's incorrect, I'm saying it's unlikely, very unlikely in fact.
Yes, I know you said it was a slight possibility, so in truth continuing this part of the discussion is pointless because that's what I was trying to get out of you anyway.

A good, reliable theory is based on solid evidence, not other theories and assumptions.
Yes, but applying rules of Science or Law as they pertain to the true realm, to a video game isn't really sound logic. It's a form of media that is being discussed, one that has already confirmed that the environments and inhabitants within DO NOT comply with the true realm laws of physics, physiology, psychology, etc.

Let me put it as the scientific community generally puts it:
Solid evidence or it (very likely) didn't happen.
you can put it however you like, it doesn't make your argument that much more convincing. I have a close friend, ex Science teacher, big participant in the Scientific community, very educated, very smart. he argues things like you, more often he is correct, and that doesn't bother me. His inability to loosen the confines on his mind, of the NEED to apply scientific logic to EVERYTHING is where I find him faltering.
Looking back on Science history can be quite the embarrassment for our scholarly science friends. All too often, PROVEN truths with SOLID EVIDENCE to support them, are all too often DISPROVED at a later date, when MORE SOLID, evidence is found. Science is unfortunately not the be all and end all in regards to truth. The form is all to dependent upon the humans involved, and breaking down the peripheral contributing factors to their focus or lack of would take far longer than I have.

Thank you. I'm all for discussing the theory in itself, but the fact of the matter is that this theory just isn't likely at all. I have nothing against discussing the possible impact on the story if this theory were to be true, even in part, but people claiming this theory is even remotely reliable are fooling themselves and others.

There is no claim from me that theory is reliable at all, and any one fooled by a discussion about a random concept is probably already one.
My claim is simply that the theory, in part, or at it's basic level (which I see as 'did 16 get out of the Animus by symbiosising with Desmond?') is a sound one, and could have occurred.

I know it's not a word, I also know that you know exactly what I mean by it, and there's no need to debate how I am not allowed to use it, or made an error in doing so. Language existed in many forms long before any controlling authority bothered to establish a record of what was and what wasn't correct. And anyway, have you seen some of the words that get in Oxford's and Webster's these days.

Not that I'm looking for a victory, but I will consider your acknowledgement of the possibility, twice now, as something of that nature.
I haven't found the discourse offensive, but I think I have an idea as to why so many here seem to be lacking in respect for your opinion. Whether they would agree or not, I think it's less about the rationale of the opinion itself and more about the way in which it is transmitted.

LightRey
12-23-2011, 02:59 AM
Well quoting that would be ugly and hard to read, so I'm just going to by by it point by point again.

-He also just happens to have been the previous subject, which makes him chronologically the closest to Desmond, which could very well have been enough to have given him the edge he needed to contact him in the way he did. Remember, the animus seems to go through deletion cycles, which means that any data of previous subjects was likely deleted before Desmond even ever got into the Animus. It's a big assumption. You're basing all of this on the sole fact that S16 has been able to contact Desmond.

-The proposed benefits for Desmond, not S16, else what I said wouldn't even make sense. Why would any benefits for S16 help convince Desmond to allow him to come with him? That doesn't make any sense at all.

-It was very obvious. He was talking about getting out of the animus. He had a chance for that when he still had a body. He also mentioned himself he found his own sync nexus while his body was dead when explaining to Desmond how he knew it would work. In fact, almost everything he said before that moment throughout the entire game suggests that's what he meant. Every piece of evidence is pointing in the direction that that's what he meant. Why in god's name would he even say that to Desmond? And if what you claim was what he meant, why did Desmond not freak out about it? If I had learned that some freak program had tried/considered going into my mind without my knowing, I'd have freaked out.

-That still leaves all the other things I've said about the core elements that remain part of this theory, not to mention that all that the proposed aspects use to support the concept is left out of the picture as well, leaving very little to go on.

-I have never claimed otherwise.

-You misinterpret. I'm using science from the perspective of the devs, not the AC universe itself. I take 2 things into account. The first being that the devs will want to make a realistic story, meaning that most if not all of the story has to be part of a logical and relatively realistic process. The second, which I've used countless times in this discussion alone, which directly contradicts the assumption you're making about my use of science, is that I look at the story elements that have been used, and see scientifically what each part of the story's function in the story would have been, based on the things said by the characters and their actions. As I explained S16's actions and conversations all had a certain theme to them and every thing he said ties in with the concept that he was intended to keep the player a little on edge until the very end where he saved Desmond, to make that part of the story more dramatic.

-Of course they are, but they are the theories that are disproved the fewest of all. They are the peek in the chance distribution of truth (in a more literal sense than most people would realize).
Mind you that I find your hinted at accusation of me only believing in things that are supported by evidence to be unfair and one based once again on assumptions. As a matter of fact I am a Christian. I believe in an omnipotent God and that he sent his only son to earth to save humanity from sin. Doing such a thing is completely unscientific. The thing is that that is beside the point. Science is not a system to convince oneself, it's a system to convince others. If you want to believe in this theory go right ahead, but if you want to convince others about it's possible truthfulness then you have to come with solid evidence. That is what science is for.

-A theory isn't sound if it "could have occurred". If that were the case than my theory of that stars are made of magic sugar would also be a sound theory. You can't disprove my theory, but that doesn't make it sound. In fact, the very fact that the theory can't be disproved makes it not sound. A good theory is a theory that can be tested. If it could, but isn't disproved by those tests, then, and only then, is it a sound theory.

-no idea what you're talking about here

-It is odd that you would find an admission which I never denied, or tried to deny, a victory somewhat puzzling. Technically even the most ridiculous of theories are possible. To acknowledge such a thing says very little about anything. We're not looking at possibilities, we're looking at probabilities (or at least I have been, if you were simply disussing possibilities all this time then consider your entire attempt to contribute to this discussion pointless as I've never even thought the concept at hand was entirely impossible). There is a huge distinction between the two.

SolidSage
12-23-2011, 12:26 PM
@Lightrey
- 16's qualifications: It's not a big assumption at all. He has been giving us clues to the entire story arc from start.
"Big Assumption" seems to be a favored tool for you at casting doubt on credible information. Writing it often does not make it so. He may not know how to piggyback, he also may. No evidence either way. No big assumptions either way. But go ahead say it some more.

- Benefits: Yes you're right. I only mentioned 16's benefits because he disn't bother to reveal any for Desmond, and therby didn't have a convincing argument. You asked, I answered, benefit for 16, none that I can tell for D. If you couldn't make sense of it, ok.

- What solid evidence are you talking about now? 16 talked about a lot of stuff, he explained hiw D could get out and why he couldn't or didn't. THEN he went on to explain that he still could, and how. He was slipping mentally, Desmond was freaked out about it, hence the "that's not happening" and THEN 16's "I had my chance". You choose to assume he was referring to his own sync nexus, I think he was referring to what he had just suggested.

- Again, why does the entirety of a theory or proposition have to be valid for parts of it to be valid? Have we not had theories on space that are largely wrong but still included minor truths? The answer is yes. I'm not saying 16 merged, I'm saying he could have. And that the rest of the OP theory doesn't have to be sound for that aspect to be.

- So...

- The problem with debaters that quickly lay clain to science thought as an ally, is that they then assume they are arguing from the higher ground, using the correct tools of disection. There us no validity in this self appointed expertness. Because you claim scientific logig does not mean you are using it, or using it more competently than individuals who don't bother to try and leverage their theoretic qualifications by citing such.
A metaphor for the approach: Playing a game with friends, then informing them that only you know the rules, then adjusting the rules as you like perhaps, then claiming to be the only qualified person to determine the winner, and then picking yourself as it.
It's just an attempt to make yourself seem more qualified basically. I don't need instruction on sound logic, even if you are eager to provide it.
But yes, perhaps the entire affair was to make 16's good guy'ness at the end more awesome.

- It's usually not such a chore to convince people that something in a story might possibly have happened. In fact convincing isn't a sensible approach anyway. I'm agreeing with th TS that 16 might still be around some way in the next game.
You are the one who is dead set on convincing that it is not the case.

- A theory is fine without evidence, that is in fact why science arose, because some of them are important enough to need proving. This particular theory doesn't, we already know the answer will ve determined and revealed soon enough. Science has no place here in trying to establish as truth, a story arc that an individual will decide the course of. Are you saying Science can predict the future thoughts of a writer or ascertain one's he already had, without his involvement?

- 'Symbiosising': Aren't you the guy who likes to tell people they've spelked things wrong or used incorrect grammar etc? My mistake.

- Yeah I thought that would give you something to have a jab at.
Dicing probabilities and possibilities to what end? Making yourself appear more intellectual? I have talked possibilities all along, you must not have been paying due attention. As far as probable goes, hmmm, I'd say it falls somewhere in the '5% for' region. But trying to determine the fate of a character that is soley hinged upon the deision making of a writer is what is actually pointless.
This theory thread was for the point of discussion, nothing else, so I have in fact made as large a contribution as you to this point, scroll back for the 'solid evidence'. Your attempts at proving that this theory cannot be true is the pointless endeavor....unless you 'ARE' the writer, in which case I would take your word for it.

- As far as God and Jesus, just to go further, I'm Christian, and I believe there is something more. The age old version of a Grandpa/Santa figure doesn't do much for me but whatever, people need to visualize something.
Jesus, I believe existed, and I also believe that what he did, as a man, sets a greater example for humankind than the idea that he was magic so the consequences weren't real consequences.
As a man, to be iconified throughout history for championing freedom and peace is an uncommon thing, more often it is the oppressors that establish those legacies.
So yes, Jesus. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif



-

De Filosoof
12-23-2011, 01:44 PM
Lightray here's a question for you.

I think the big revelation was for Desmond when he said at the end: I know what to do.
But Jupiter Didn't gave him many clear instructions, so why is it that he exactly knows what to do. as if everything fell into place, He didn't even looked surprised when his arm was all "glowy". I would freak out. I mean Eve has a big part in the AC story, that's clear but is only mentioned vaguely. He didn't get any information from S16 about Eve as well in AC:revelations. So why can he be so certain of what to do? He doesn't know **** about one of the most important things...Eve. Now it appears S16 knows alot about Eve so it sounds kinda logical that S16's knowledge somehow immersed with Desmond. What do you think?

SolidSage
12-23-2011, 01:54 PM
@Bijlsma
Interesting point, good question.

16's statement about "what is a man but the sum of his memories" or whatever, makes me think he was referring to the knowledge gleaned from those memories. And perhaps it's that, which he transferred to Desmond...if anything.

De Filosoof
12-23-2011, 02:14 PM
Exactly, I mean Desmond was not really a thinker. He rather worked as a bartender for the rich elite instead of learning, researching, seeking for answers on the mysteries of live. Uhhhh doesn't that say enough? In all AC games he kinda represented a guy without a vision
nd now he is suddenly the "all wise" guy who knows exactly what to do? Sounds kinda weird to me.

LightRey
12-23-2011, 04:10 PM
@SolidSage:

-We don't know where he got those clues from other than his animus sessions and we also don't know how hard it was for him to hide them in the animus, or if he was even the first to do so. For all we know he may simply have been passing down information from previous subjects. Until we get to know how he did what he did or how the other subjects dealt with the Animus, it's all based on assumption.

-No, I didn't ask. There wasn't even a question. I made a statement and you responded with an irrelevant statement.

-Well let's see. At the very beginning S16 explains Desmond that he has to find a synch nexus. That way the animus would be able to separate Alta´r from Ezio, Ezio from Desmond and thus be able to "send [Desmond] back to [his] body". When Desmond asks him how he knows that, he responds that he found out because he did so himself and the only reason it didn't work was because he was already dead by then *hint* *hint*.
Now, in his second conversation with Desmond, he kindly explains to him that "wandering outside the Desmond partition (i.e. visiting an ancestor's memories) can get him hunted down deleted "like a little virus". *hint* *hint*
Now in their third conversation, he starts off saying "think about this", clearly acting as if he had been pondering if it were possible to come with Desmond, as that is what he was proposing to Desmond. Saying things like "it could work. Just for a while." Again suggesting that he really isn't remotely sure at all. It is in fact right then when he says "No... I guess I had my chance. And I wasted it.". If what you're suggesting is true, that would mean that that would have been the exact moment he wasted his chance. Imo, it makes much more sense that he is here referring to having had the possibility of not committing suicide and finding his own synch nexus as that actually happened in the past, which, y'know, makes sense since he said he had his chance and he wasted it (past tense *hint* *hint*).
Source (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWFIUB6pZ8Q)

-I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the parts of ACTurkey's original theory that we're dropping for lack of necessity regarding the concept means that we're dropping at least half of the bits he had collected to support his theory, which means that what's left has even less to support it, further harming its validity.

-so yay http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

-Which is beside the point. Me using science, assuming I use it correctly (which I would hope I do, with me being an astronomy student and all), means I'm using the very method designed to determine the probability of proposed solutions to problems. Regardless of my motivations for using it or my attitude in using it, it has proven itself to be the most reliable way by far to "measure" truth.

-My personal conviction on the matter is mostly pertaining to what is shown in the game. Yes, one could question the things that seem most apparent, but why? If we'd believe in all theoretical possibilities, we'd have an infinite amount of theories ranging from the ridiculous to the absurd to consider to be valid. I, as a scientist, stick with what is probable. The improbable can be interesting to discuss, but is most often (by definition of course) pointless to discuss, as there are an infinite equally (im)probable theories to consider.

-Quite the contrary. Science arose to find out which theories are fine. Science abhors lack of evidence.
No, we cannot predict what they will write, but we can determine the probability of the theoretical things they will write and as I explained, that is exactly what science is designed to do. This theory is an improbable possibility in the AC storyline.

-No I am not. I believe you are thinking of someone else. Though in general I do tend to do that a lot, I tend to refrain from doing so on these forums and I am not the one here known for doing such things. Tbh, I wasn't even aware you had used that word. On these forums I focus on what people are trying to say, not what they're actually saying. It saves a lot of time and effort that would else be wasted on a pointless and often off-topic discussion.

-No, but it is obvious that when a theory is proposed, it's probability should be determined. Threads such as these are focused on trying to find out aspects of the AC universe. In determining the probability of a theory, we help ourselves and each other get a better understanding of the AC universe and storyline.

-Good for you. Yay for philosophical conundra. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

@thijs_bijlsma:

Well it obviously pertains to what Jupiter said: "take my words, pass them from your head into your hands". I think it's actually a combination of 2 things:
1. The knowledge of how the world ended, what the temples were for and why Desmond has to go to the Grand Temple and why it is so important.
2. The Sixth Sense.

I think in gaining the understanding that he did, thanks to Jupiter & co, Desmond was able to awake the Sixth Sense and with it gain a full "intuitive" understanding of what he needed to do. This is only a theory of course, but it seems a well fitting explanation.

De Filosoof
12-23-2011, 04:19 PM
It's nice to see the many theory's on this subject http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

LightRey
12-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
It's nice to see the many theory's on this subject http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
Such theories are the very reason I first joined this forum.

Mostly to tell people how they were wrong of course (it's kinda my thing), but discussing them has always been interesting nonetheless.

SolidSage
12-23-2011, 04:43 PM
@LightRey

I'll skip some of it because it's getting long winded and more focused on devaluing each others 'ability' to reasonably evaluate the theory, or parts of it.

- 16 passing down info. If you learn something in your Astronomy class, does that knowledge now not belong to you? Regardless of how 16 came across info, he as the sole point of contact is the possessor of it. ALL knowledge is accumulated.

- It wasn't irrelevant. I didn't specify that I didn't think there WAS a benefit for D and that's why 16 didn't offer one.

- I disagree that when 16 said. He "had his chance" it would have meant that exact moment. It was my view at he was referring to any moment prior to revealing his presence and info to D on the Island. Like he could have performed it against D's will. D wasn't too receptive to 16's final act, but it still occured, or was forced upon him.

- Again, portions of the overall theory not being supportive of the basic claim does not mean the basic claim is any less plausible. Saying shooting stars are magic monkeys riding rockets does not mean shooting stars don't occur.

- Terrific.

- Well the word that stands out there is 'student' but your obvious intellect isn't what I was questioning as much as enlisting Science as an aid in giving your 'opinion' more worth. And besides, 'science' is comprised of logic, reason, rationale and other sensible thought processes that do exist just fine outside the realm science. Of course, if you're like my friend you can claim that Science encompasses and owns all those things anyway so in using them correctly I am employing scientific thought myself. At the end of the day, to me, it's just a word used to describe approaches to thought and reason that existed anyway, before Science as an identifying term was coined. But I'm not a historian or keeper of language so you can dispute that if you like.

- Okay. But I thought the writers included the *hint hint* at a piggyback specifically to make us consider it. What they chose to do with that is still undetermined. Was it just a hug and a deletion of self so D could get one more shot at reconstructing the memories, maybe. I am still inclined to think that something may have been transferred. I don't share your view that it's a significant stretch of the imagination...maybe a small one.

- Isn't that what I said? Science came about to prove the important theories? Are you saying it came about to prove which theories were important enough to prove? Okay.

- Ok. I spell just fine, but the tool I use to interact with the forum is flawed and it's a hassle to correct. I adjust words arbitrarily to convey thoughts quicker, when I feel like it.

- Sure,I agree. But TS didn't suggest that 16&D made a baby when they hugged, he pointed a question at a transfer of sorts. I thought it was a good question that may have snagged something that the Dev's did bother to hint at.

Off Topic: One might think that an Astronomy student having a theory that "stars are made of sugar" a little contradictory.

SolidSage
12-23-2011, 04:45 PM
@Bijlsma
I also considered D a bit of a wash out upstairs. So easily led.

LightRey
12-23-2011, 05:59 PM
-Yes, but that doesn't mean that he was any more special than the other subjects, which is what we were discussing, were we not?

-and instead you gave possible benefits for S16, which was irrelevant.
On the matter of there having been no reason, that was my point. If Desmond would have no benefit from S16, then that leaves little room for story development on the matter and it completely overturns the original reasoning behind ACTurkey's theory.

-Don't you see how little sense that makes? It makes no sense for him to mean that and even if it did Desmond should've been shocked by him saying it if he meant that, as he clearly didn't want him in his head and the thought of him having pondered the possibility of secretly slipping with him should therefore freak him out. It really doesn't fit he conversation. The past tense alone should indicate enough that he is talking about something that hasn't been possible for him for a while, not a metaphorical door he shut just seconds before. He'd have used the present perfect for that.
You also stumble upon a contradiction in the theory here, as it proposes that he actually did go with Desmond. If he already wasted his chance, then it should be impossible for him to do so later on, shouldn't it? So there, you'll have to pick one or the other.

-Not less plausible, no, but most certainly less probable. Your analogy is also flawed as it completely misses the point.
Probability is dependent on the available data. The more data, the more reliable the the theory. That's one of the very basics of statistical analysis.

-Indeed

-I care little for your anecdotes, so don't bother bringing them up. My 'opinion' has nothing to do with this.
When I refer to "science" I am referring to the Scientific Method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) and the use of logic to make conclusions based on available data. I'm using science to determine the improbability of this theory, which is not an opinion, it is fact. If science determines that with the available information the theory is improbable, then it will remain so until new information is added. It's completely independent of anyone's opinion. That's one of the the basic reasons science exists. To root out bias.

-They are indications. What they suggest supports my theory and not yours, which suggests my theory is more probable than yours. You have yet to come up with anything more than that it is a possibility to support your theory.
You seem to believe in this for no other reason than that it is possible, and that is fine, but you have yet to present us with anything that is truly convincing, because as I said, it merely being possible leaves open an infinite amount of alternatives. What is so convincing about this theory that distinguishes it from the others? Why do you find this one to be more likely than all those alternatives?

-No, you misunderstand. Theories are part of science. Science doesn't exist to prove theories , science exists to make theories and consequently value their reliability. Theories can't be proven, only disproved (if it's a good one). It also has nothing to do with their importance. Any theory can be and is tested by science.

-ah

-But it is speculation. The little evidence that has been provided to support it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I suppose it's an interesting theory to some (though I'm not one of them), but the generally assumed alternative (S16 having been deleted) is just so much more probable and that's really all I'm saying.

Off topic reply: It was a joke of course. I don't actually believe that. Stars are obviously made of (mostly) plasma. Most of it Hydrogen and Helium ions of course.

KH_Austin
12-23-2011, 06:15 PM
@ Lightrey:

Look here, I have to agree with Solid_Sage. I believe 16 must have left Desmond his memories; why else would desmond would not know what to do. I think 16 knew Desmond would need help and the best thing to do that is to give him his entire memories.. and that includes the memories of seeing Eve.

No offense, L-Ray, but you should at least accept it. If not, then that means you just made yourself a fool by not accepting it. I like his theory better than yours, dude and to mention it, I hate science.

BK-110
12-23-2011, 06:28 PM
I'd certainly call it an interesting theory. And I'd say it could well be true. Clay was trying to tell Desmond something in ACB, after all, and for some reason he never told him in ACR. Clay probably has a lot of knowledge Desmond could use.

LightRey
12-23-2011, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by KH_Austin:
@ Lightrey:

Look here, I have to agree with Solid_Sage. I believe 16 must have left Desmond his memories; why else would desmond would not know what to do. I think 16 knew Desmond would need help and the best thing to do that is to give him his entire memories.. and that includes the memories of seeing Eve.

No offense, L-Ray, but you should at least accept it. If not, then that means you just made yourself a fool by not accepting it. I like his theory better than yours, dude and to mention it, I hate science.
Then by all means explain why Jupiter said "take my words, pass them from your head into your hands". Let's also not forget that Alex Amancio himself said that we would know what would be coming after ACR, so whatever Desmond is supposed to know about what he has to do, it's likely something we apparently also know. Jupiter actually was quite clear. He explained that he, Juno and Minerva had been trying to save the world, that they had tried 6 methods and that the seventh method would be what Desmond has to do and to do so he had to go the the Grand Temple. Now, knowing that is imo already enough reason to say "I know what to do" in Desmond's situation.

Let's also pose the following problem: Why would strange symbols show up on Desmond's arm if S16 went with him? The animus affects the mind, not the body. It's a far more plausible explanation that the signs on Desmond's arm have to do with his TWCB heritage, especially considering the apple being active when we see the symbols and the fact that the symbols look very similar to those found in the temples.

There's nothing to accept. The theory has nothing solid to support it, so there's no good reason to believe in it instead of any other "plausible" theory.

The fact that you hate science says much about you. I very much doubt that you have taken the time to read half of even one of my posts. You say I should just "accept it", when all you propose is a ridiculously feeble reason to even consider the theory, especially when comparing it to the generally accepted alternative.
Either way, whether you like science or not, it tends to be right most of the time (one could even argue that it has to be by definition as science defines probability). Deal with it.

KH_Austin
12-23-2011, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KH_Austin:
@ Lightrey:

Look here, I have to agree with Solid_Sage. I believe 16 must have left Desmond his memories; why else would desmond would not know what to do. I think 16 knew Desmond would need help and the best thing to do that is to give him his entire memories.. and that includes the memories of seeing Eve.

No offense, L-Ray, but you should at least accept it. If not, then that means you just made yourself a fool by not accepting it. I like his theory better than yours, dude and to mention it, I hate science.
Then by all means explain why Jupiter said "take my words, pass them from your head into your hands". Let's also not forget that Alex Amancio himself said that we would know what would be coming after ACR, so whatever Desmond is supposed to know about what he has to do, it's likely something we apparently also know. Jupiter actually was quite clear. He explained that he, Juno and Minerva had been trying to save the world, that they had tried 6 methods and that the seventh method would be what Desmond has to do and to do so he had to go the the Grand Temple. Now, knowing that is imo already enough reason to say "I know what to do" in Desmond's situation.

Let's also pose the following problem: Why would strange symbols show up on Desmond's arm if S16 went with him? The animus affects the mind, not the body. It's a far more plausible explanation that the signs on Desmond's arm have to do with his TWCB heritage, especially considering the apple being active when we see the symbols and the fact that the symbols look very similar to those found in the temples.

There's nothing to accept. The theory has nothing solid to support it, so there's no good reason to believe in it instead of any other "plausible" theory.

The fact that you hate science says much about you. I very much doubt that you have taken the time to read half of even one of my posts. You say I should just "accept it", when all you propose is a ridiculously feeble reason to even consider the theory, especially when comparing it to the generally accepted alternative.
Either way, whether you like science or not, it tends to be right most of the time (one could even argue that it has to be by definition as science defines probability). Deal with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I will. I'm just saying his theory might be right. Beside, I would like more 16 action, and it would be sweet to have 16 help out desmond in the real world than be stuck inside the Animus beside gylphs and rifts.

LightRey
12-23-2011, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by KH_Austin:
Oh, I will. I'm just saying his theory might be right. Beside, I would like more 16 action, and it would be sweet to have 16 help out desmond in the real world than be stuck inside the Animus beside gylphs and rifts.
Why do people keep thinking I think the theory is impossible? I never said it was. In fact, on several occasions have I made clear that it is most certainly possible.

However, I don't see a good reason to believe in this theory. It merely being possible isn't enough reason to believe it, as there are many alternatives one could think of that are all just as possible.

At this point, this theory has given me little to no reason to believe it and thus I'll stick with the theory that S16 was deleted along with the island.

I would also like to take this time to discuss one of the reasons presented just now. BK-110 pointed out that S16 had yet to elaborate on the things he had shown in The Truth (both in ACII and ACB). However, I don't think that's a good reason to believe this theory.

Think about it. If it's so important, why doesn't he simply explain it all to Desmond in ACR? One could argue that they had something of a time limit and therefore S16 wanted to wait, but he shows few signs of being in a hurry and on several occasions does he have conversations with Desmond that seem relatively unimportant.
One also has to consider if he actually knew any more than the information he's already given. After all, if he knew the answers, why not just give them immediately instead of being so vague?

So we have a conundrum. If what S16 was trying to show was important, why didn't he simply take the time to tell Desmond or at least bring it up?
On the other hand, if it wasn't important, why was he being so dramatic in ACB? Why aren't the questions The Truth posed answered yet in both cases?

What also bothers me about this is that Desmond didn't even inquire. However, the fact that he was in a coma could mean that he couldn't think clearly, as was somewhat evidenced by him having forgotten about Lucy's death and even during the Desmond missions does he seem te be re-remembering things, as if he had forgotten them.

Now my take on this:
What I think is that the information S16 was trying to convey to Desmond was somewhat important, but not directly pertaining to his "mission". When looking at the other information The Truth has provided us (in the puzzles themselves), we see similar things. The information is clearly important and likely very useful to the Assassins in many ways, but none of it (save a very few pictures in ACII) seem to be pertaining to saving the world.
This leads me to think that S16 may have stored more information on the Animus, or maybe even somewhere else.

De Filosoof
12-23-2011, 07:26 PM
Then by all means explain why Jupiter said "take my words, pass them from your head into your hands". Let's also not forget that Alex Amancio himself said that we would know what would be coming after ACR, so whatever Desmond is supposed to know about what he has to do, it's likely something we apparently also know. Jupiter actually was quite clear. He explained that he, Juno and Minerva had been trying to save the world, that they had tried 6 methods and that the seventh method would be what Desmond has to do and to do so he had to go the the Grand Temple. Now, knowing that is imo already enough reason to say "I know what to do" in Desmond's situation.
They say so much stuff. I can remember a question about the truth puzzles in a Q&A on youtube. They said the truth puzzles wouldn't be there because S16 was already with you so there would be no reason to have the glyphs implemented. Sounded kinda logical to me. 16 didn't even mentioned the glyphs! NOTHING!!...here's the link. One big lie. '
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bhkZ5HauSw listen at 8.40...YES there will be puzzles and glyphs!!! no...not really. It makes me kinda sad seeing him say with a big smile: YES!!!! what do you think?

ok, so Jupiter told about the grand temple but they were already there when he woke up so it's not that he knew to travel to the grand temple because they were already there.
Jupiter doesn't tell that much more, not even about how Desmond must do it, right?

SolidSage
12-23-2011, 08:20 PM
@LightRey
Too much of your argument asks for indisputable proof that theory is actual fact. Nobody is claiming it as fact, but instead supposing that the story may have some twists.

You keep saying there are infinite possible theories and we might as well suppose they are all possible, but that is straying from the fundamental conversation. The cut scenes, one of which suggested that 16 considered a piggyback out of the Animus and then the deletion scene. Where the TS pointed out some interesting graphical oddities and then queried "could this have represented 16 actually doing the piggyback?", to which the answer is simply, Yes. Arguing that it can't have possibly been the case us a fools game, one which you have distanced yourself from by admitting it's possibleness, regardless of how unlikely you think it.

- No, but them not being available puts him at the top of the heap. So, in that regard, he is the most special.

- Well if D aquired super knowledge from a transfer there were in fact significant benefits for D. I was saying that 16 didn't reveal any and making it clear (but not clear enough) there was no point in arguing further assumptions.

- No. I don't understand why it makes no sense to you. D WAS shocked when he suggested it, physically repulsed in evidence by him stepping away and the "that's not going to happen". D, now aware of 16's desire would make it much more difficult for 16 to accomplish a piggyback without forcing it, hence the "I had my chance" being in reference to any period prior to revealing his desire. Again...maybe.
And while your past/present argument is good, it doesn't account for 16's mental disposition or the context of how he intended to do it.

- My analogy is a joke. I guess only you are allowed to make them...in your World. Also, things are no less probable when an individual is lacking the data than if said individual has all the data, the probability is dependant on related facts, not who knows them. Basically, the science is the truth, not the scientist.
But yes, the reliability of the theory is not being argued.

- ...

- I care little for what you do and don't care about so don't bother telling me about your cares. Also, the Scientific Method may be without flaw but humans are not, so their involvement in it introduces flaws, therby Science is flawed. Fact. Plus, acting like your mind is a computer, processing information without bias or emotional influence is just that, an act, and not a good one Mr Roboto.

- This theory is not so convincing, I already told you that I think the probabilit lies in the 5% range IMO. I am discussing it because I like it. The only supporting evidence that it may have occured is 16/writers bothering to mention it AT ALL, and perhaps, dependant on the actual outcome, some of the visuals in the TS video, the physical contact, and graphical additions. Why was it necessary to hug D to delete himself again? Did he IMPART a protective element or something?
Your 'theory' is that 16 ONLY deleted himself, I haven't seen a ton of evidence supporting that, that is so convincing.

- So theories didn't exist before Science? People never pondered anything before science? Proving and disproving suppositions didn't occur before science? No, science is the name given to the method of investigation of ideas and concepts. Sorry, you're not the science police and your logic is failing here. Science, science, science...yawn.

- ..solo mio. I was going to go another way with that but you wouldn't have seen the humor I'm sure.

- Yes, well I think you are probably going to be correct when compared to the complete original theory. But I am starting to think something, of some nature, was imparted to D from 16, more and more.

- And the Universe continues to expand, the Sun is hotter away from it's surface and so on, and on.



-

-

LightRey
12-24-2011, 04:13 AM
@SolidSage
No, I don't need solid proof that the theory is fact, I need solid evidence. This theory gives me no good reason to believe it. It just happens to be possible. Give me some information that gives indication that this could be true and I might reconsider, but at this point this theory has nothing solid at all to support it.

-Which could very well be only because he was the subject before Desmond. We barely know anything about S16 or the other subjects. Saying he's better at using the animus is a big assumption if only because of that. Besides, we don't know how hard it was for him to do the things he did. It could very well be that the only reason he did them was because he had the opportunity contrary to his predecessors.

-Well that poses the other problem then. If Desmond would have such a benefit from S16 coming along with him, why didn't S16 try to use that to convince him? S16 seemed to want desperately to get out of the Animus. If he could bring along such info, that'd be an excellent thing to bargain with.

-Yes, but he was not repulsed when S16 said he had his chance, which is what I'm talking about. If what he meant by that was what you suggested, then that would mean that he had considered trying to do so without Desmond knowing. That should have freaked him out too, but it didn't. Desmond just stood there. It just doesn't add up. The whole conversation gets weird and contorted if he were talking about what you suggest.
He had no mental disposition anymore. He had found his own synch nexus. He was just as sane as Desmond. Besides, if I can't use it to refute my point because of his mental disposition, then you can't use it to defend yours for the same reason.

-My analogies make sense, even if what they propose are ridiculous. If you want to make an analogy that is a joke, make sure it either makes sense or is ignored. Ugh, did you even listen to my explanation for his actions. Everything you said that could support it can attributed to something else. The fact that he said it was merely to build up suspense. He "hugged" Desmond to create the protective barrier (which can quite clearly be seen in the cutscene if you pay attention) around him that prevents Desmond from being deleted. He also says "I'm saving you, you idiot!", which, y'know, is something someone would say when trying to save someone who wasn't clear on the matter.
Also, he didn't delete anyone. The entire Animus island was scheduled for deletion (hence the whole island literally going to bits and at the end of the game having to be recreated). Desmond was going to be deleted along with it, but S16 created a barrier, allowing Desmond to leave Animus island through the gate and finish his search for the Synch Nexus.

-Science isn't an invention. It existed long before it was named. Theories didn't exist before science, because theories are part of science.

-You have Nothing. All you have done so far is argue that it is possible not probable and that is in no way enough to counter the very well fitting theory that S16 is gone.
All you have done is attempt to show that the theory is could be true. Show me something that actually indicates it's possible truth, instead of trying to show me lack of indications it isn't (which imo you're not doing very well either).

@Thijs
The "puzzles and glyphs" they were talking about were the Desmond missions. They were a new kind of puzzles that they wanted to introduce in ACR and they were quite clear long before the game came out that they had replaced the by then repetitive Truth puzzles, with something new and more interactive.

Well he tells them that he needs to use whatever information is in the Grand Temple and that it is the place where apparently all the data of the other temples is sent to. Desmond also now knows what he needs to save the world from. I'd say that simply knowing where he has to be and what he has to prevent are enough to merit the words: "I know what to do".

dewgel
12-24-2011, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
@SolidSage
No, I don't need solid proof that the theory is fact, I need solid evidence. This theory gives me no good reason to believe it. It just happens to be possible. Give me some information that gives indication that this could be true and I might reconsider, but at this point this theory has nothing solid at all to support it.

-Which could very well be only because he was the subject before Desmond. We barely know anything about S16 or the other subjects. Saying he's better at using the animus is a big assumption if only because of that. Besides, we don't know how hard it was for him to do the things he did. It could very well be that the only reason he did them was because he had the opportunity contrary to his predecessors.

-Well that poses the other problem then. If Desmond would have such a benefit from S16 coming along with him, why didn't S16 try to use that to convince him? S16 seemed to want desperately to get out of the Animus. If he could bring along such info, that'd be an excellent thing to bargain with.

-Yes, but he was not repulsed when S16 said he had his chance, which is what I'm talking about. If what he meant by that was what you suggested, then that would mean that he had considered trying to do so without Desmond knowing. That should have freaked him out too, but it didn't. Desmond just stood there. It just doesn't add up. The whole conversation gets weird and contorted if he were talking about what you suggest.
He had no mental disposition anymore. He had found his own synch nexus. He was just as sane as Desmond. Besides, if I can't use it to refute my point because of his mental disposition, then you can't use it to defend yours for the same reason.

-My analogies make sense, even if what they propose are ridiculous. If you want to make an analogy that is a joke, make sure it either makes sense or is ignored. Ugh, did you even listen to my explanation for his actions. Everything you said that could support it can attributed to something else. The fact that he said it was merely to build up suspense. He "hugged" Desmond to create the protective barrier (which can quite clearly be seen in the cutscene if you pay attention) around him that prevents Desmond from being deleted. He also says "I'm saving you, you idiot!", which, y'know, is something someone would say when trying to save someone who wasn't clear on the matter.
Also, he didn't delete anyone. The entire Animus island was scheduled for deletion (hence the whole island literally going to bits and at the end of the game having to be recreated). Desmond was going to be deleted along with it, but S16 created a barrier, allowing Desmond to leave Animus island through the gate and finish his search for the Synch Nexus.

-Science isn't an invention. It existed long before it was named. Theories didn't exist before science, because theories are part of science.

-You have Nothing. All you have done so far is argue that it is possible not probable and that is in no way enough to counter the very well fitting theory that S16 is gone.
All you have done is attempt to show that the theory is could be true. Show me something that actually indicates it's possible truth, instead of trying to show me lack of indications it isn't (which imo you're not doing very well either).

@Thijs
The "puzzles and glyphs" they were talking about were the Desmond missions. They were a new kind of puzzles that they wanted to introduce in ACR and they were quite clear long before the game came out that they had replaced the by then repetitive Truth puzzles, with something new and more interactive.

Well he tells them that he needs to use whatever information is in the Grand Temple and that it is the place where apparently all the data of the other temples is sent to. Desmond also now knows what he needs to save the world from. I'd say that simply knowing where he has to be and what he has to prevent are enough to merit the words: "I know what to do".


Will you STOP acting like you're right all the time, and just leave the thread. You've got some valid points, I admit, but this is a theory. We're not saying "THIS IS TRUE YOU BETTER BELIVE IT", we're theorising. You're just raining on people's parades and there's no need for it.

STOP it. You're NOT right always. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying your attitude stinks in which you think you are gospel.


I really do think the theory makes sense

LightRey
12-24-2011, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by dewgel:
Will you STOP acting like you're right all the time, and just leave the thread. You've got some valid points, I admit, but this is a theory. We're not saying "THIS IS TRUE YOU BETTER BELIVE IT", we're theorising. You're just raining on people's parades and there's no need for it.

STOP it. You're NOT right always. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying your attitude stinks in which you think you are gospel.


I really do think the theory makes sense
Calm down. I'm having an in-depth discussion with SolidSage. The theory is not convincing to me while it is to him and we're discussing why.

StrokeMyBeagle
12-24-2011, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by dewgel:
Will you STOP acting like you're right all the time, and just leave the thread. You've got some valid points, I admit, but this is a theory. We're not saying "THIS IS TRUE YOU BETTER BELIVE IT", we're theorising. You're just raining on people's parades and there's no need for it.

STOP it. You're NOT right always. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying your attitude stinks in which you think you are gospel.


I really do think the theory makes sense
If presenting a differing opinion using scientific reasoning is considered "raining on people's parade", then I think I've just lost faith in humanity.

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 06:42 AM
@Thijs
The "puzzles and glyphs" they were talking about were the Desmond missions. They were a new kind of puzzles that they wanted to introduce in ACR and they were quite clear long before the game came out that they had replaced the by then repetitive Truth puzzles, with something new and more interactive.

no, you are talking about it much too easy now.

first of all the Desmond missions had nothing to do with puzzles and glyphs. We all know what the meaning of puzzles and glyphs is in the AC universe. Ok the Desmond missions had puzzle elements in it but it's not called "puzzles and glyphs". If they were, we could call the missions from Ezio where he has to find the seals also puzzles and glyphs...

Let me quote some stuff from the Q&A video and comment on it:

1 "I can tell you that if you enjoyed the puzzles and glyphs moving from AC2 to brotherhood...IT's GONNA BE NUTS!"

- It wasn't "nuts" yeah nuts in the fact that there weren't ANY.

2 "The level of glyphs(yeah read glyphs not puzzles) is well beyond what we had in AC:brotherhood and even AC2"

- uhmm no...this one doesn't even need explanation...it's just a ridiculous statement and all the people who played AC:2 and AC:B will know why. In AC2 it took me a great amount of time to find all the glyphs. The puzzles from the glyphs were sometimes also kinda challenging. They also told you a lot about history and we can all agree that learning from history never gets old right? We couldn't even read the Ishak Pasha pages.

3 "I think you're gonna be quite honestly amazed by the glyphs that we have in AC:R"

- yeah i was blown away...

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 06:51 AM
And the animus data fragments. Yeah it sounded pretty nice but it was just a replacement for the borgia flags. Oyeah and after you collected 30 of them, you could pretty much stop collecting them...

LightRey
12-24-2011, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

@Thijs
The "puzzles and glyphs" they were talking about were the Desmond missions. They were a new kind of puzzles that they wanted to introduce in ACR and they were quite clear long before the game came out that they had replaced the by then repetitive Truth puzzles, with something new and more interactive.

no, you are talking about it much too easy now.

first of all the Desmond missions had nothing to do with puzzles and glyphs. We all know what the meaning of puzzles and glyphs is in the AC universe. Ok the Desmond missions had puzzle elements in it but it's not called "puzzles and glyphs". If they were, we could call the missions from Ezio where he has to find the seals also puzzles and glyphs...

Let me quote some stuff from the Q&A video and comment on it:

1 "I can tell you that if you enjoyed the puzzles and glyphs moving from AC2 to brotherhood...IT's GONNA BE NUTS!"

- It wasn't "nuts" yeah nuts in the fact that there weren't ANY.

2 "The level of glyphs(yeah read glyphs not puzzles) is well beyond what we had in AC:brotherhood and even AC2"

- uhmm no...this one doesn't even need explanation...it's just a ridiculous statement and all the people who played AC:2 and AC:B will know why. In AC2 it took me a great amount of time to find all the glyphs. The puzzles from the glyphs were sometimes also kinda challenging. They also told you a lot about history and we can all agree that learning from history never gets old right? We couldn't even read the Ishak Pasha pages.

3 "I think you're gonna be quite honestly amazed by the glyphs that we have in AC:R"

- yeah i was blown away... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, but they literally said that the Desmond segments would involve new puzzles that were to replace the S16 glyphs. Since basically all of the Desmond gameplay revolves on his sequences those were obviously what they were talking about.

1. that is your opinion, not theirs or mine. They were fun and interesting to work out imo.

2. That is because they were referring to the Data Fragments. Those were to replace the glyphs in function and make them more like collectibles.

3. To each his own I guess. I found them very interesting.

Of course they were exaggerating, but that is to be expected. They're obviously proud of their game and they're not going to say "yeah, it's ok". They were fun. If you didn't like them, too bad.

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 06:58 AM
People seem to really like you here, Rey http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LightRey
12-24-2011, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
People seem to really like you here, Rey http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Yes, I'm quite popular. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:07 AM
Of course they were exaggerating, but that is to be expected. They're obviously proud of their game and they're not going to say "yeah, it's ok". They were fun. If you didn't like them, too bad.

Yeah you're right...let's not criticise games anymore. It's not that being critical and learning from your mistakes improve things.

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Of course they were exaggerating, but that is to be expected. They're obviously proud of their game and they're not going to say "yeah, it's ok". They were fun. If you didn't like them, too bad.

Yeah you're right...let's not criticise games anymore. It's not that being critical and learning from your mistakes improve things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some people actually liked what you eloquently dismiss as "Mistakes"

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Of course they were exaggerating, but that is to be expected. They're obviously proud of their game and they're not going to say "yeah, it's ok". They were fun. If you didn't like them, too bad.

Yeah you're right...let's not criticise games anymore. It's not that being critical and learning from your mistakes improve things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some people actually liked what you eloquently dismiss as "Mistakes" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah you liked the replacement of "borgia flags" for glyphs? I fully understand that. Because they can't put both in ofcourse...crazy me.

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Of course they were exaggerating, but that is to be expected. They're obviously proud of their game and they're not going to say "yeah, it's ok". They were fun. If you didn't like them, too bad.

Yeah you're right...let's not criticise games anymore. It's not that being critical and learning from your mistakes improve things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some people actually liked what you eloquently dismiss as "Mistakes" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah you liked the replacement of "borgia flags" for glyphs? I fully understand that. Because they can't put both in ofcourse...crazy me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I liked The Desmond Puzzles..

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:17 AM
They could at least put some glyphs in the Desmond missions. It had nothing to do with glyphs. It were easy first person puzzles telling Desmond's history that we already knew. That was it. Fact. Nothing more nothing less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...sDM32n8&feature=fvst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjL8sDM32n8&feature=fvst)

Take a look at this teaser trailer.
You can see some red glyph kinda writings on the walls. Have you seen them?

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Of course they were exaggerating, but that is to be expected. They're obviously proud of their game and they're not going to say "yeah, it's ok". They were fun. If you didn't like them, too bad.

Yeah you're right...let's not criticise games anymore. It's not that being critical and learning from your mistakes improve things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some people actually liked what you eloquently dismiss as "Mistakes" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah you liked the replacement of "borgia flags" for glyphs? I fully understand that. Because they can't put both in ofcourse...crazy me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I liked The Desmond Puzzles.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah me too! but like you say, it are puzzles and it has nothing to do with glyphs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
They could at least put some glyphs in the Desmond missions. It had nothing to do with glyphs. It were easy first person puzzles telling Desmond's history that we already knew. That was it. Fact. Nothing more nothing less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...sDM32n8&feature=fvst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjL8sDM32n8&feature=fvst)

Take a look at this teaser trailer.
You can see some red glyph kinda writings on the walls. Have you seen them?
There are things that some people didnt know. Its not ubisoft`s fault that you are an Ultra, mega, Super genius..

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:25 AM
My point is, Gabe was just totally lying.

When he was asked if there are still puzzles and glyphs, he had to say something like this:

There are still puzzles to solve but the glyphs are TOTALLY gone. We now have something else, something like the borgia flags but we can't get any further on that one.

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
My point is, Gabe was just totally lying.

When he was asked if there are still puzzles and glyphs, he had to say something like this:

There are still puzzles to solve but the glyphs are TOTALLY gone. We now have something else, like the borgia flags.
Hmmm, how are the Desmond Memories like the Borgia Flags ???

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
My point is, Gabe was just totally lying.

When he was asked if there are still puzzles and glyphs, he had to say something like this:

There are still puzzles to solve but the glyphs are TOTALLY gone. We now have something else, like the borgia flags.
Hmmm, how are the Desmond Memories like the Borgia Flags ??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The data fragment "glyphs" (how some people would like to call them).

LightRey
12-24-2011, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
My point is, Gabe was just totally lying.

When he was asked if there are still puzzles and glyphs, he had to say something like this:

There are still puzzles to solve but the glyphs are TOTALLY gone. We now have something else, something like the borgia flags but we can't get any further on that one.
When they said there'd be glyphs they meant that there would be something similar to the concept of hidden animus code. They announced way before the game came out that the logical puzzles in the way they were presented in the glyph puzzles of ACII and ACB would be gone. They were replaced by different kinds of puzzles, which they compared to the puzzling things often portrayed in Escher drawings.
The point is that they literally said that there would be no more S16-related glyph puzzles, since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time.

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time.
Oh no http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:37 AM
The point is that they literally said that there would be no more S16-related glyph puzzles, since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time.
Annnnd.....he didn'thttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And what about the real glyph stuff in the teaser trailer?

LightRey
12-24-2011, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time.
Oh no http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66njeIMpv5U)


Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The point is that they literally said that there would be no more S16-related glyph puzzles, since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time.
Annnnd.....he didn'thttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And what about the real glyph stuff in the teaser trailer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He did, just not about glyph-related stuff.
What teaser trailer are you talking about? I don't remember any "real glyph stuff".

Assassin_M
12-24-2011, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:

Annnnd.....he didn'thttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

trailer?

I knew it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif
This is why i said "Oh No"

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time.
Oh no http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66njeIMpv5U)


Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The point is that they literally said that there would be no more S16-related glyph puzzles, since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time.
Annnnd.....he didn'thttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And what about the real glyph stuff in the teaser trailer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He did, just not about glyph-related stuff.
What teaser trailer are you talking about? I don't remember any "real glyph stuff". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hahaha, but that was whole point! Were are we talking about...The glyph stuff right?

" The point is that they literally said that there would be no more S16-related glyph puzzles, since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...sDM32n8&feature=fvst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjL8sDM32n8&feature=fvst)

This trailer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most of the stuff wasn't even in there.

LightRey
12-24-2011, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by thijs_bijlsma:
hahaha, but that was whole point! Were are we talking about...The glyph stuff right?

" The point is that they literally said that there would be no more S16-related glyph puzzles, since S16 was there to talk to Desmond this time."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...sDM32n8&feature=fvst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjL8sDM32n8&feature=fvst)

This trailer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most of the stuff wasn't even in there.
True, but you gotta admit it'd have been kinda weird if we were trying to solve puzzles made by S16 to reveal secrets, if he could just tell Desmond.

Why they didn't talk about it is a completely different matter.

The only thing that didn't seem to be in the game was the red text on the walls at around 0:34. The rest was all in there to my knowledge (though modified a little at some points).

cagrie123
12-24-2011, 10:59 AM
info from acwikia: clay(S16) dead in 2012
desmond(S17) not dead yet

so problem solved.

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by cagrie123:
info from acwikia: clay(S16) dead in 2012
desmond(S17) not dead yet

so problem solved.

No, because Clay was already dead before AC:R.
It doesn't solve any problem.

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 11:29 AM
The only thing that didn't seem to be in the game was the red text on the walls at around 0:34. The rest was all in there to my knowledge (though modified a little at some points).
No, it also shows a cutscene with Desmond slamming on a glass looking wall.

SolidSage
12-24-2011, 12:22 PM
@All
Just so we can be clear, it's not my parade, and I'm not aware of any precipitation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
In spite of my opponent's devaluation of my cognitive processes (at every turn) he is at least devoting the time to a discussion and bothering to avoid the use of overt derogatory and demeaning vocabulary.
Basically, an obtuse insult is more civil than a direct one, because the act itself (unwittingly perhaps) acknowledges a certain intellectual capacity of the individual it's aimed at. It in fact is almost a compliment of sorts....see how I rationalized that away in to a tidy package. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif



LightRey

In reference to the question you asked someone else about "take my eords, yadda yadda yadda...".
For me that translates into, "listen to what I'm telling you, think about it, then make it action". Listen, think, do. I doubt it had anything to do with actually making magic words appear in his hands. I know, the glyphs on the arm, do you think those are literally Jupiters words?

- There is no solid evidence of any of it until 3. Stop asking for something none of us have like it can actually happen.

- So it is your position that 16 was not an Animus guru, in spite of leading D through it for 4 games and saving his life at the end while D was standing around perplexed? I'm not saying 16 is the best ever, I'm saying he is the best we have.
Are you going to disagree with all of my views because we don't 100% agree on another?

- For the same reason 16 didn't tell D a ton of things he should have. No time, but more realistically, because the writers don't want to paint themselves into a corner. You know that story direction develops and isn't written in stone.

- D already showed creeped outness at the idea, he probably had more resolve especially since he had now had the opportunity to ascertain that it was not going to happen. And 16 almost said it to himself anyway.

- Your dislike of my analogies isn't a qualifier of their worth, you dislike everything I've had to say, so your opinion is hardly unbiased.
As far as the deletion, ok, so 16 new how to do something special to prolong life, probably without the experience of doing it before then? And I'm not saying there was devious intent, he probably was benevolent, although why he would be so selfless all along is a bit???

- Theories did exist before science, they were called thoughts, concepts, ideas. Honestly science practicioners are worse than religious zealots these days. It really is the same kind of fanatasism, and again, it's not science that's flawed, it's the scientist. Just because we can all agree that there are sound principles for thought and accurate investigation does not mean those participating in the form are error free. How many errors arer made by scientists prior to them accurately performing their processes? I'm sure it's more than the scientific community would care to admit.

- Such an adamant accusation about my position in defending a theory as 'possible', which I have stated all along. Of course I'm not doing it well, I disagree with his highness don't I.

-
-

phantom-queen
12-24-2011, 01:57 PM
@solidsage and @lightrey

I have enjoyed your discussion on this topic, and would like to add that the biggest evidence I see in making it possible and plausible is the Animus itself. Even the keys can help prove that in this world technology exists to see one's memories. Plus when one uses the Animus to access those memories, D remembers when he leaves the Amimus all the memories he just re-lived.

I think the writers have left the window open so that they could allow D to access all of 16's memories. Thus the "ah-ha" moment D has when he comes out of his comma, that he knows what to do.

As far as the glyphs, do you think that is a visual indication for us the viewer (more like eagle vision), or marks that are actually visible by the other characters?

LightRey
12-24-2011, 02:26 PM
@thijs_bijlsma:
That was on an early build of Animus island. You can even see the gate in the background. The event never happened, no, but where it took place certainly existed.

@SolidSage:

Listen. You must go there. To the place where we labored. Labored and lost. Take my words. Pass them from your head into your hands. That is how you will open the way. But be warned. Much still remains in flux and I do not know how things will end, either in my time, or yours.
That's the end of Jupiter's speech. I bolded the most significant word regarding our discussion.

-I'm not asking for evidence as if it were real life, I'm asking for any evidence that the story is actually heading that way. Is it hinted at? Does it explain things that are currently unexplained? Has it happened before? Would it make sense regarding what's going to happen? Anything that can answer these questions and holds up could support the theory. I have yet to see anything regarding this theory that can answer any of these questions with a solid "yes".

-Actually, the devs themselves said that Desmond's story was almost completely thought out from the very beginning. Only the minor details and the things directly related to the when and how of the ancestors are being thought out while the games are being developed.
And even if we ignore that, just because it isn't "set in stone" doesn't mean that it can just divert from common sense. Even with the confusion about the Denver/Alta´r PoE and Ezio's PoE they made perfectly clear how and why there seemed to be discrepancies and they still gave a well thought-out explanation. They're not idiots. They know what they're doing. The story has made sense at basically every turn. I see no reason to assume they'd just dash out common sense just to make things more dramatic. They wouldn't even need to.

-I'm sorry, but that is a really weak argument imo. Besides, my proposed alternative has actual solid links to the things S16 said before. I have yet to see the same for your theory.
And again: past tense, not present perfect.

-There's no such thing as an unbiased opinion, so that statement is redundant. Besides, it is not my opinion of your analogies that matters, it's that it was a joke as you said.
S16 didn't know how to prolong life. Animus island was scheduled for deletion, not Desmond or S16. They were just going to get deleted because they were on animus island. That's why S16 made sure Desmond could get away before he got deleted along with the island. S16 likely used similar methods to those he used to "distract" the animus while Desmond was in session to keep him from getting deleted long enough to get through the gate and therefore not get deleted along with Animus island. In doing so he seems to have sacrificed himself, maybe because he had to stay there to do so or maybe to have the deletion process focus on him instead of Desmond, I dunno. Regardless, we clearly saw him "crumble" in the same way the island did, so it's safe to assume he was deleted.

-Those are science. You're not getting it. Science is not a "religion" or a "belief". It's a system. Just because it wasn't categorized doesn't mean people didn't practice it. Anyone who would have been thinking of theories would have been practicing science, regardless of whether people had a name for it.
Of course it's not error free, but science is a system that is designed to eliminate errors. For something to be considered scientific, it has to be repeatable. One's process can be as logical and well documented as anything, but if it cannot be repeated then it isn't science.

-You are defending something I am not attacking. I don't want to know from you if it's possible, I have been able to determine that on my own. What I want to know from you is why you think this theory is any more probable than the alternatives.
I'm not going to comment on your snarky comments.

@phantom-queen
This theory isn't merely about being able to access S16's memories. He supposedly "went with" Desmond according to this theory. While I don't disagree that it is possible, I see very little indication in the story to believe in this theory and the generally assumed alternative (S16 being deleted and gone) makes much more sense.

However, fragments of him and/or his genetic memories may still remain inside the Animus somewhere.

De Filosoof
12-24-2011, 04:06 PM
@thijs_bijlsma:
That was on an early build of Animus island. You can even see the gate in the background. The event never happened, no, but where it took place certainly existed.
I understand that you will never agree with somebody but you get my point. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SolidSage
12-24-2011, 05:57 PM
LightRey
So what do you think, are the glyphs in D's arms, Jupiter's spoken word? How do you see it?

I'm going to say what elements anchor my mind to an idea as 'possible', in as few words as I am able, to limit pointless transfers of opinion.

- The character possessing the desire, verbally suggests the process, actually being a possibility.

- Considerable thought was put into 16's role in AC. His 'likely' end did not resolve much of his influence. I thought the writing of the next installment, started after the writing of the previous installment, was complete.

- The way the scene was written conveyed to me that, 16 was talking about having the chance to merge/take over Desmond, prior, to revealing the possibilty to him. Then, during the hug, I was given pause to consider what it was, 16 was actually forcefully doing to/for D. It could have gone either way. It still could.

- Oh, I get it whenever I want it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
But I know the process IS science, and WAS, before Science was coined as a term. That's what I have been saying, not you, you're just now saying it. I'm getting at you being hung up on a word for the process, as if just using it a lot clarifies that you are doing/using it better.

- Well I am telling you it's possible and acknowledging your concession on THAT point. I don't think 16 'sharing' Desmond's body/mind is more probable, I think it's low probability. I think 16 'transferring' something to Desmond's mind is of almost equal probability as your theory, that 16 was (just?) deleted and imparted nothing.

- This deserves it's own bullet. Your 'not comment' on my snarky comments WAS a comment. And snarky's my word, but I understand it's appeal.


PhantomQueen

- I don't think D and 16 are related in any way, so D shouldn't be able to relive 16's memories. I do wonder if D won't develop an ability that allows him to access the Animus in a more organic fashion (without a chair/chase lounge...{bit of french for you there}).

- That's not how you spell 'comber'.

- Er, that requires a big commitment of opinion. I don't know. Are they visible, I think so right, didn't everyone in the van have a reaction?

LightRey
12-25-2011, 05:47 PM
I think it's basically him "activating" the Sixth Sense, or at the very least something related to his TWCB genes. Obviously it's supposed to help him open the Grand Temple, which is further evidenced by the glowing symbol on what's likely the door. Whatever it is, it's very likely something Desmond was born with, since the Animus can't change Desmond's physiology.

-You're going to have to do better than that. The first two points can just as well be explained as being there to add dramatic effect to the scene where he saves Desmond and as I said the third option only eliminates exclusion.

-No, that's only regarding the story of the ancestors. Desmond's story has been practically completely thought out from the very beginning.

-Well it certainly didn't convey that to me, especially keeping in mind that he committed suicide and only afterwards found his synch nexus.

-Why are we even arguing this?

-But I don't. The entire story leads up to that point. Hell, he even says he's saving Desmond and he disappears in the exact same way as Animus Island, which we know was deleted, because we see it being rebuilt during the credits. Not only does everything that fits in the "downgraded" version of ACTurkey's theory fit in the theory that S16 was deleted, but there are also events in the game itself that strongly indicate that he got deleted (we see it happen). All you have is that he suggested the possibility and the desire, which btw, was basically at such a depressive point that it was basically a desire to be deleted (after all he "just didn't want to be [there] anymore"). Aside from that, S16 seems like a standup guy. He more seems to be the kinda guy that chooses death before dishonor than that he'd "sneak" into Desmond's head after Desmond clearly expressed his dislike for the matter. That's all my opinion though.

-I meant I wasn't going to comment on the contents of the comments, not their existence.

SolidSage
12-26-2011, 03:48 AM
Lightrey

I need to rewatch the van scene. Sounds like you think they are physical manifestations/evolutions.

- No I'm not. Yes they could.
And if the scenes are interpreted a little differently, the possibility, could seem more plausible (than you think).

- You sound very sure of this.
Maybe 16's story wasn't completely thought out.

- And then couldn't return to the land of the living OR force his own expiration. But if he was so tired of existing why would he even consider hitching with Desmond? Especially when he knew the scheduled deletion was a way to end it for himself. Surely he would have been eagerly anticipating it and, if really concerned about helping Desmond, transferring as much pertinent info as possible?
Remember the, 'crazy' argument is equally attributable to both theories.

And all of this 16's personality hyperbole causes friction with him being a 'representation' of his real self (basically).
There has to be some sort of conciousness there for any of this to work. Unless he was so selfless in life that the Animus factors it in that 'helping Desmond is what he would do". That requires so much assumption about 16 that I'd be more inclined to believe that the Animus Program itself was in some way sentient, and assissting Desmond for it's own purposes.

- end

- Highly probable...but did 'all' of him get deleted? He was just data right?
How did he manage to get into memories of Desmond's ancestors, and leave the glyphs again? In regards to the genetic code law of entry?

- end

-

LightRey
12-26-2011, 03:05 PM
@SolidSage
Well unless it's a projection made by the apple or a hallucination it's definitely something physical.

-Well then I remain unconvinced.

-Even so, that would still mean his involvement with Desmond would have to be relatively minor in AC3, which would be somewhat problematic considering he'd have to be inside his mind.

-He wasn't tired of existing per se, just existing inside the Animus. I'd say considering his situation that I find it quite likely for him to sacrifice himself since he'd not have much to 'live' for anyways, especially since he wasn't getting out of the animus anytime soon.
The thing is, we don't really know what S16 knew. It could very well be that he really didn't have any more information about the stuff he's shown in The Truth. I mean, if he knew more, why not just give the info right there and then in The Truth?
I am not talking about him being 'crazy'. He killed himself before he found his synch nexus. In doing so he wasted his chance of going back to his own body.

Think of him like someone imagining what their friend would do in a theoretical situation. That's basically what S16 is in ACR. He is what the animus "thinks" he would be like. One could debate that he is conscious, but I sincerely doubt the animus could even closely simulate S16's entire consciousness.

-yay

-He didn't get inside Desmond's memories. The glyphs were located inside the virtual space in which the Animus renders memories. In fact, the numbers at the end of the glyphs in ACII added up to animus coordinates with which Desmond was able to find the ones in ACB. They were not part of the memories, they were part of the "place" they were rendered.

-yay again

SolidSage
12-26-2011, 10:36 PM
@Lightrey

I still haven't rewatched the van scene, I don't know if anyone else saw them. If not, Desmond could be seeing them with his Eagle vision. Like there is some digital ghost/physiology change (not necessarily attributed to 16.

- Me too.

- Yes, that would make data transfer, vice mental symbiosis, seem the more likely possibility in regards to the transfer theory, as it would work from a story stand point.

- If he killed himself, he was tired of living, then he was bored of the Animus, who knows what he would prefer from there out. Deletion may have been the greener grass to him. And maybe he didn't have more info, but he always seemed to know what we needed to find out.
Just a story facilitator perhaps and nothing more.

- I still am not convinced that he was just a representation. A fragmented conciousness, merged with the Animus and digitally adapted, always appealed to me more.
16's statememnt about being the sum of his memories addresses this I guess, because if our thoughts are just processed responses or actions, motivated by the influences of our personal existences, then plugging them into a program designed to copy the human minds cognitive process's exactly, would achieve those same results.
So a 16 copy would do what a real 16 would, due to being mathmatically comprised of exactly same influential factors.

I can't go for it still. I think there's a spiritual fingerprint to account for.

- That makes sense.
The Truth seemed like a lot more than a slave uprising during one of the failed civilizations.
At the time I actually thought it was a hint at co-op.

LightRey
12-27-2011, 02:39 PM
Maybe, but we don't see the regular darkening we usually see when using Eagle Vision/Sense. However, during the scene William (and likely Rebecca and Shaun too, but it's impossible to see) starts looking at his arm when the symbols appear (not to mention the apple starts glowing), indicating that it's visible to anyone.

-Too bad, but not unexpected. I was never really trying to convince you anyways.

-Indeed, but I'd still say it's unlikely as making such a thing only a minor part of the story would be hard to pull off (and unnecessary imo).

-Who knows? Anyways seeing just how depressed he really was about his situation, I'd say it's more than likely that he'd almost embrace deletion.

-You do realize that the devs repeatedly said he was, right? They literally said things like "He's just an imprint of the real Subject 16" and the like. Also as I said, Rebecca also says that the animus is modified "simulate cognitive function" (instead of just memories), which basically came down to freeing up lots of space, indicating that that's already what it's doing, just not on the scale of basically an entire consciousness.
Besides, the human mind is a huge collective of "programs". Much larger than anything modern computers can muster. Even if we consider the fact that the Animus is exceptionally high tech, to think that it could have not one, but two entire human minds in it without suffering significantly in processing ability, even with so much space freed up, just seems much too unlikely. Besides, I doubt it would be necessary to "download" entire human minds for it to work.

-So it seems. The Encyclopedia states that Adam and Eve started the war between humans and TWCB by stealing an apple (which is what many had already assumed based on The Truth), so I would assume that was the event that started it all.

SolidSage
12-27-2011, 03:40 PM
I'm interested to how it will unfold then, and what physical ability changes the markings might represent, if any.

- Not much point in arguing this further, since we both agree on it being both possible and low probability anyway and that hasn't changed.

- Well, Desmond has been getting a lot of info from a lot of places. This "I know what to do" could be attributable to a couple of different entities.

- Agreed. So the musing on a merge seems out of place, or at least it's inclusion didn't add much to the story if it was meant to make us nervous about what 16's motives truly were. If that were the only purpose I would say they could have added content playing on that neurosis a bit, rather than just the one hint, because it came and went in the one scene with not too much effect. Other than the pause it gave during the deletion scene for a second, where we had to consider what it was he might be doing.

- Yeah I get the angle. But it's hard to make sense of that logic when it's coupled with actions that seem so, chaotic and yet, necessary for Desmond's continuation.
Like in a movie when the hero just happens to get lucky a bunch when it comes to not dying, rather than being good at preventing it himself.
If I am to accept that 16 is just a copy, then, for the realism to remain tangible for me, I have to assume that the Animus program itself is invested in wanting Desmond to succeed.
I mean, it can't just randomly be determining that, "hey this dude is loony tunes and would want to be deleted but would also maybe want to hijack Desmond's body but at the same time will step in and save Desmond's existence because that's what he would do if he was real", right? It's more like the Animus system has been using it's 16 copy as a tool to communicate with Desmond and promote his journey towards saving the planet and in doing so, preserving the system itself, which is probably programmed to self sustain along with protecting it's users.

- Odd that 16copy thought that piece of information so important to Desmond/other users. Odd that the Animus is trying to solve the TWCB/Human conundrum.

Anyway, I'm deviating from the topic that is clearly possible, and unlikely.

phantom-queen
12-27-2011, 05:50 PM
This conversation has talked about all the angles so nicely. And now more than ever I can't wait to play the next installment, to play where they really take it.

I am curious now if S16 is really gone, how Desmond is going to be used as a key to the Grand Temple.

LightRey
12-27-2011, 05:52 PM
Well according to Jupiter it involves being able to open the door.

-I don't agree on S16 being deleted being of low probability.

-Or it's just knowing that he needs to get inside the temple. Don't forget that he said that when he wasn't even aware yet of where he was.

-Well he wasn't a complete nutjob of course. Not since he found his synch nexus anyways. Likely lonely, broken and somewhat depressed, but not completely nuts. He was certainly an interesting character though. I liked seeing his (relatively) sane side.

-Well you have to remember that a simulation of a consciousness would be built to seem real. The distinction between an actual consciousness and a simulation of it will fade when it becomes more accurate of course, so again it's debatable just how much of a "person" this simulation of the original was.
However, I still sincerely doubt he would've been his entire consciousness. I liked my previous analogy of someone imagining what a friend would do in a certain situation. I think it's quite similar to that.

-Well it was just a recording of one of S16's sessions and it was likely hidden before he killed himself. However, even if that weren't the case than the animus would only be doing that because it was trying to "imagine" what S16 would do.

SolidSage
12-27-2011, 09:45 PM
- I was talking about the 'hitching' being low probability. Although I am still partial to a data transfer of sorts.

- Right. Didn't he know about needing to find the temple at the end of B? Maybe not the Grand Temple.

- I kind of liked him more in B, when he was the digital entity.

- Yes I can agree that it probably wasn't his full conciousness. I still struggle with the idea that all of the involvement with Desmond, during his Animus sessions, was the Animus just running a 16 program. I mean at the end of B, leading Desmond through the puzzles/platforms, the whole "too weak" speech etc, it's just hard for me to reason that a system was doing that without there being some sort if 'will' behind it.

- He probably did hide the clues before he died. That resolves it.

The 'theory' discussion is drifting away here. Maybe we should think about giving dude his thread back. It's been a good debate.

LightRey
12-28-2011, 02:42 AM
-oh sorry, I read "both" wrong. Made me think you were talking about both theories.

-Not really. We found out about random coordinates for a temple at the end of the Da Vinci Disappearance, but we didn't know their significance or what the Grand Temple was for (or that such a thing even existed).

-He was more mysterious I suppose. Maybe that's what was appealing to you.

-Well it would have been simulated 'will' (again the lines blur the better simulations become).

-indeed

Alright. I think I'm basically done here anyways (until someone else comes along and says something I don't completely disagree with that is).

Unbuhleevaball
01-14-2012, 12:28 PM
-Not really. We found out about random coordinates for a temple at the end of the Da Vinci Disappearance, but we didn't know their significance or what the Grand Temple was for (or that such a thing even existed)

Talking about those co - ordinates, I recently fed them back into Google Earth and looked around that area for anything significant. I know it doesn't mean anything at all but Google Earth has a feature which lets users upload photos of different parts of the world - they are then placed on Google Earth and can be viewed by clicking on the photo icon of the location you're looking at.

Basically, just next to the location of the co - ordinates (it can't be more than 1 mile away, probably far less) are loads and loads of pictures of wind turbines, as viewed in the final scene of Revelations. It's called Maple Ridge Wind Farm. What I'm getting at is that there is something built literally on top of the temple - perhaps the Templars know about this so built the Wind Farm? They did the same thing with the Apollo Mission to the Moon to obtain the 5th Apple of Eden.

I know this is about Subject 16 but just thought I should post this here. This is a pretty good thread too!

LightRey
01-14-2012, 08:51 PM
Talking about those co - ordinates, I recently fed them back into Google Earth and looked around that area for anything significant. I know it doesn't mean anything at all but Google Earth has a feature which lets users upload photos of different parts of the world - they are then placed on Google Earth and can be viewed by clicking on the photo icon of the location you're looking at.

Basically, just next to the location of the co - ordinates (it can't be more than 1 mile away, probably far less) are loads and loads of pictures of wind turbines, as viewed in the final scene of Revelations. It's called Maple Ridge Wind Farm. What I'm getting at is that there is something built literally on top of the temple - perhaps the Templars know about this so built the Wind Farm? They did the same thing with the Apollo Mission to the Moon to obtain the 5th Apple of Eden.

I know this is about Subject 16 but just thought I should post this here. This is a pretty good thread too!

I'm quite sure the Templars don't know about the location of the Grand Temple, since they have been looking for it for centuries (SPOILER: possibly one of the reasons Lucy was killed?). It may however be the case that the Templars do know that a temple is located there, because there is a dot around there on the map shown by Alta´r's apple at the end of AC1.