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View Full Version : Some problems when dogfighting in a Mustang



FatBoyHK
02-02-2005, 03:45 AM
Very often, when I initiate an attack with a considerable amount of energy advantage, I will lose my advantage very soon, or even end up with the bandit at my six. Some problems:

1. After the first Boom, I zoom up and dive on my target again, at this time my bandit can very easily force an overshoot, or even an head on, by pointing his nose upward to me, regardless of how much energy he has.

2. The bandit defend himself by doing a sciscor. Not to be fooled by him, I zoom up to preserve my energy. However, at this moment he can simply point his nose upward and grab my six. I must then disengage...

3. The bandit defend himself by doing tight turns with throttle idled. I do the same, but unlikely I will be able to have a good firing solution. Before overshoot I will zoom up, but same at (2), he can then pull his nose upward and obtain a good firing solution... I must disengage by doing a dive or spit-s, but it is dangerous enough....

What I have missed?

With all these problems most by my kills are from surprise attacks, if the first bullet fail to land, very proably I won't but able to kill it, and end up being pushed back home... I hope I can enjoy the fun of dogfighting, but seem I am not capable of succeeding in it yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

JG54_Arnie
02-02-2005, 04:10 AM
If you want to keep the advantage: Never manouvre too much with the target, only one small turn is advisable if you can get a shot at him. You have the advantage, so you should be fast enough to evade being shot by your target on the way up. Just zoom back up with a turn and he wont get you and if he tries will lose lots of energy. If he can catch you, you dont have enough energy advantage in the first place.

And why even use zero throttle? If you want to lose energy fast, thats the way to go, but you dont want to do that when BnZ'ing someone. As long as you are high up there and your target nice and low, you can decide when to move in, so make sure you have a good angle when you move in for a shot.

You also say that when you move in after the first pass he can go headon, if that is the case, dont go in and keep your alt, try to move into a better position from which you can try another attack with only you doing the shooting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ploughman
02-02-2005, 04:46 AM
Of course, in the old days there'd more often than not be more than one aircraft involved in an attack and any plane manouvering to avoid a diving attack by one bandit might very well be moving into the gunsights of another.

Most kills were made on bandits that didn't even know they were in trouble.

Additionally, even top aces came home empty handed, often only getting damaging or downing planes 15-25% of the time they actually made contact with enemy aircraft.

One thing that the game doesn't model is a pilot's instinct for self preservation. That's up to you. If you fly like you really only have one life you'll find yourself being alot more cautious, a lot more interested in keeping the advantage or bugging out, and your kill rate will drop to something that begins to resemble the actual experience of successful combat pilots in WWII.

As for overshooting, if you're going to overshoot and in B&Z you're always going to you want to be going like a bat out of hell when you do or you'll be in deep trouble. Eric Knocke, nasty Luft Nazi fighter ace with a career total 54 kills shot down a P-47 piloted by a USAAF ace, with 13+ kills, in a burning Bf109G because the USAAF pilot overshot slowly and assumed because Knocke's plane was in a bad way that it represented no threat.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-02-2005, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Of course, in the old days there'd more often than not be more than one aircraft involved in an attack and any plane manouvering to avoid a diving attack by one bandit might very well be moving into the gunsights of another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



What he said. Get a wingman...or two. staying alive is better than pressing the attack to the point of losing all advantage.

Heavy_Weather
02-02-2005, 07:40 AM
and most importantly you have to make all your shots count on your way down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-02-2005, 07:58 AM
its not just the mustang but it seems planes can flip around do a complete 360 and not loose that much E and able to catch you in a climb even with 2000-3000m alt advantage and no using the stick just a gentile trim climb

like p51 or p38 diving on a 109 or a 190 diving on a spit.

They really need to add a larger E bleed penalty for the stick yankers. They also need to reduce the rudder effectiveness on many ac spit yak la mig lagg 109 190.

Planes like the p51 wildcat ki84 will go into a flopping stall when using about 35% rudder.

I have not seen many talk about this ever but in 3,04 I noticed oleg reduced the rudder effectiveness of the zeke and ki43 which made them perform some amazing manuevers previous patchs.

Hopefully alot of things get reworked for the next patch but im not counting on anything

FatBoyHK
02-02-2005, 08:12 AM
I think I understand what you said, my buddies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In this way I have no problem preserving my life, and get some kills too. However, my productivity is sooooo low compared to some players, in the same plane in the same server.

The thing that they amazed me is that they can turn the table at will, even at the worst possible situation, sometimes I think they intentionally open up their six to someone, and by one moment of magic, attacker become victim.

I think it is the reason why they have such a high productivity. And then, I think, may be I have not tried hard enough? may be I should try to mix it up with my enemy, instead of waiting and waiting and waiting for the best opporunity? May be I should try pressing the attack longer, instead of zooming up again and again and again? That is why I tried, and failed, and came here to ask for advice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

ploughman
02-02-2005, 08:48 AM
Yeah, I use full rudder on the Spit for about a third to a half a revolution whilst in rolls and it increases the roll rate by 50%. Can get you in a nasty spin though if you keep rudder on for too long. If I had pedals I'd probably be a little more subtle but I've only got full left or right rudder mapped to the keyboard. I daren't use rudder on most other a/c as they just flip out.

geetarman
02-02-2005, 09:18 AM
Ploughman's initial post is spot on!

Fatboy, I think you're starting to see that the Luft fighters in this game (at least the G model 109's) possess the following important advantages over the P-51:

1. Much better low speed handling;
2. Better roll rate at medium to lower speeds;
3. Better climb;
4. Really big cannons!

I fly the 51 all the time on WC. It's very easy to get frustrated. Most 51 pilots don't rack up a ton of kills like some of the Spit boys do. I like a good scrap as well as the next guy, but the Mustang (at 10,000 and below) is not the plane to do it in. It can get very maddening.

The Mustang flew high and fast in WWII and usually went after Luft fighters that were either trying to get at the US bombers or had finsihed their pass. Sometimes, the Mustangs had numerical superiority. The US plilots flew in teams. That doesn't happen much on WC.

Most importantly, as Ploughman said, a WC 109 or 190 pilot faces a 5 min penalty if shot down, as does the Mustang pilot. A Luft pilot in WWII with 2 Mustangs on his six, was fighting for his life and was probably pretty scared. More than likely, he tried to run, not loop, scissor, use hard aileron rolls, etc. to get away. The Mustangs caught him and shot him down.

I'm beginning to think that if you like "shoot-em-ups" and want a lot of kills, you're better off flying a Spit or maybe a P-63. The Spit was a better dogfighter than the Mustang and has some cannons.

You're a good pilot (I've seen you on WC), but if you want better stats, you might try another plane. I've only seen a few guys REALLY do well in the Mustang and score high and live through each mission.

FatBoyHK
02-02-2005, 10:20 AM
I love Mustang, that is why I want to succeed on it. I thought it is next to impossible, but after WC started to record stats, it opened my eyes.... it is indeed very possible.

but at the same time I am not an airquake pilot. I fly realistically and I never press an attack if I am at the disadvantaged side. Stats is indeed not a very important thing for me, some high rank players are just disconnector (I withnessed it), and some have tons of time to practice, I envy them but at the some time I know I have a job and a family too.

The number 1 edge of a Mustang is its speed, I can almost always get away if I wise, and not to late in making such decison. If people wish to fly realistically, Mustang is their friend. But now I wish to exploit every drop of quality a Mustang has, instead of its speed only. It is a good energy fighter and it turn very well at high speed. I know them but I just couldn't mix them up into a winning package.

jurinko
02-02-2005, 10:25 AM
fatboy, do not fight Spits, Las and Yaks in P-51! Or where I heard this story about raising nose from 300kph and following upwards?

JG7_Rall
02-02-2005, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I love Mustang, that is why I want to succeed on it. I thought it is next to impossible, but after WC started to record stats, it opened my eyes.... it is indeed very possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good for you man, I love it when people fly a plane because they like it and not because they get kills in it. I wish everyone flew in this manner. I could fly the spit in WC and probably get a lot more kills than I do in my Dora, but I love it and all the 190's so much that they're all I fly. Just fly what you like and make the best of its strengths. I'd rather be a mediocre pilot in a plane that I love than an ace in a plane that I don't like.

FatBoyHK
02-02-2005, 10:51 AM
I fly for fun, stats come second. But I am also a very serious gamer, very naturally I want to do more on my favorite plane. And the next step, I want to be successful on multiple planes

FatBoyHK
02-02-2005, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jurinko:
fatboy, do not fight Spits, Las and Yaks in P-51! Or where I heard this story about raising nose from 300kph and following upwards? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should not be a problem if I have energy advantage. It is me who don't know how to do it properly, but I know some experts will come by eventially and show me the way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

geetarman
02-02-2005, 11:35 AM
I'm with Rall (who's blown me out of the sky on more than a number of occaisions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). I grew up loving the look of the Mustang and reading the exploits of its pilots. That's the reason why I fly it. It is is hard work though against the top Blue pilots on WC!

I've even dimmed my chances of quick kills even more as I now fly the P-51B almost exclusively! I wish I had the 6 .50's!

To wring the best out of a Mustang? It's down to staying high and fast and hoping a 109 will come up to you. I usually break my own rule and dive to 4,000 feet, however, and soon am merged with Mother Earth.

FatBoyHK
02-02-2005, 11:58 AM
If the server is full of players, stay high and attack by bouncing is a valid tactics, both productivity-wise and survivability-wise. Target are everywhere, if I miss one I can find the next one very soon (the less I get myself frustated, the less likely I screw up myself), and hit-and-run moves keep me out of the trouble, any bugger at my six won't bother tracing me for more than a minute, it is dangerous and they usually find another (better) target soon enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but if there are less people on board, there will be more 1v1 fight. And people are more likely to trace me for 20 minutes, yes, he can't catch me, but it is end of fun (indeed, playing cat and mouse is quite fun sometimes) for this sorties. Sometimes I tried to E-fight them, but the result is the same -- a statemate. And I tried to mix it with him too, but IIRC I seldom win....

GUARD4000
02-02-2005, 12:08 PM
FatboyHK,my friend,u can not learn how to dogfight if u dont dogfight with the enemy.Just try to do it.I am doing this recently on WC.And sometimes i win,sometimes i lose(ok,i admit that i have been shot down a lot of times since i try that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).But u know that u can learn more things when u lose.

And forget the stat.U will make a better stat after the stat reset if u have improved your skills.

u said that" good position let you start an attack and good plane let you get out it".Bloody right and Mustang is a good plane.
so the situation is that u jump the enemy and he turns hard.u have two options.1)u zoom up and he comes on your six,u disengage.2)u use flaps and do high-yoyo(in fact whatever u can do) to get on the enmey's six and shoot him.So here begins the dogfighting and u have adv(u are on his six and u have more E).That is what we should practice,i mean to win a dogfighting when we are on enemy's six and have more E.If things go wrong and he is about to turn the table we just dive away.Mustang is a good plane so we can get out of it unless we are on the deck(in that situation we are in big trouble).The option 2 is more dangerous and u end up with less E but u can get kills.The option 1 is safer but there is no real safty if there are enemy over there.

Btw some of my friends have the ability to turn the table at will.U know how they practice it?Go to QMB and pick a ace TnB fighter as your enemy and let him get on your six,then try to turn the table.They count how many seconds they need to shoot that AI down.I am a noob and using Mustang to achieve that is not esay so i am already quite happy when i can turn the table. Right now i am not good at it so i dare not try it on WC.

Fish6891
02-02-2005, 01:26 PM
GUARD is right, its all a matter of trying out new stuff with it, experiment or you'll never know. Some things you will be able to try out on QMB but other times you will be forced to experiment online simply because human intelligence simply isn't intrinsic to the AI in QMB. There's no "by the book" way to fly any aircraft, just use your head and come up with tactics and techniques that work for you under different situations. I also recommend you quit flying that Mustang and hop in an FW or TA, they are much cooler aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (Mustang still is nice tho)

Regards,
Fish

FatBoyHK
02-02-2005, 03:54 PM
Guard, you words strike through my heart. Now I realised what has gone wrong. I remembered, the night before the 1-deathkick was enforced, I was a much better dogfight pilot. I have much better confident of my plane and my skill. Simply put, I knew how to dogfight.

But since the 1DK, I become ultra-conservative, and I didn't realize it until just now. I fear the deathkick, just like what the host want us to, but seem I take it too seriously. This fear also affected my confident, and then my performance.

Suddenly, I couldn't win any dogfight. I thought it was because the 1DK made people fly smarter, and attracted skilled pilot to play here. I thought I was actually a noob compare with these players, and to survive I must play it safe. Graduately, my kill rate dropped, and my death rate rised.

I don't know it was actually because of my lack of confident, and the lack of trust of my ride, that is the root cause of my problem.... until I saw your words. Suddenly, I realized that a deathkick is nothing to be feared. OK I should fear it but it is just a toilet break longer than usual. And, kill-death ratio is nothing, pilot skill counts.

After realizing all these I hooked online again tonight, which I see Fish and you. Suddenly, all my skills are back. I got 6 kills in one hour, 6 planes die right in frnot of me, instead of those fake kills that had actually limped back home. I have 2 collison death.... half because of bad luck, half because I was a little bit too excited http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now it know that it is all about understanding yourself and understanding your plane.... after that, trust them. Mistake is no big deal, it just add to these two understandings. If I can keep this mentially I think I can do better in the future.

PS, that "AI training", actually I just started doing it last night http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have never tried to be the defending side in QMB before.... but after one night I found that it is very very useful training http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PPS, Guard, I noticed that your die very often these days. I didn't know what was going on with you... but now I know!

PPPS. Fish, you provide great help to me too. "Your six is clear, Fatboy, Go for it", provided the first spark which started the whole chain-reaction, thx for your cover!

AFJMantis
02-02-2005, 05:10 PM
Spend a few months at fairly low altitude seaking out 109s to dogfight with, yes you will die a lot, but you will learn a lot about how to handle the plane.Get used to using flaps a lot at low airspeed and dont be afraid to slow down to make a kill.If you have an advantage and you are closing in on a bandits 6 check the surrounding area for signs of close enemy planes, if nobody is close enough to be a threat then chop the throttle and drop the flaps to slow down to almost match your targets airspeed.Be careful and make sure that you are still faster than they are, but now your closure speed will be lower and you will be able to keep guns on target for longer which will usually make for a successful kill.As you know the P51 will snap is wings of very nicely if you try to manouvre at high speed, so if your closing on a target at 650=kph and fire the guns they usually will break and you cannot match thier manouvre for fear of shedding wings.If you start to slow the plane down before you get within gun range to closer match the target airspeed, when you fire and they break you can follow them through thier manouvre to keep guns on target for longer which will result in a higher hit% and kill rate.With .50 cals its all about the number.Lets say the mustang launches 60 rounds a second at target,with a high closure rate you may only actually get 1 second of fire that is actually on target.With 5% hit ratio this would equate to only 3 rounds striking the target.3 rounds is not usually enough to bring down an enemy aircraft.With a much slower closure rate you may be able to keep gun on target for 3 seconds and with a 5% hit rate 9 rounds will strike the target which is maybe enough to bring them down.This is a very simplistic way of looking at it as there are many variables but if you think about trying to keep guns on a target for a longer time by slowing down you will find that your hit% will go up because you have guns on target for longer. Of course you have to be confident enough of your ability to handle the plane at a medium speed dogfight,just incase there is a bad guy that is close enough to try to help his teammate out. but this is where picking fights with 109s at reasonable low altitude will help you gain the skills and confidence to do this.P51 is a very capable plane, it isnt great at anything but it is good at most things, and the .50 cals are pretty deadly once you start putting enough of them on target, if you can put 50-60 rounds into a plane you will see some spectacular resultshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fish6891
02-02-2005, 07:08 PM
Mantis is a n00b on the Mustang, just check the WC stats page and you'll see http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-03-2005, 12:39 AM
whats cracks me up is being called a noob in p63 or spit but fact is the 109k 190s ta152 are the most deadly planes in game. Stats prove this

Spits controls and russian ac lock up alot earlier then the 109s and the roll is decreased so much in the spits compaired to its oppenents. Late 109s have the advantage in speed, just slightly in elevator higher speed but not low speed and have advantage in roll and 1 burst killing ability. Planes with such an advantage they did not have in rl are the russian ac without a doubt becuase they can explode ac accurately at distances of 1.3 1300m with the shvak with no decline in cannon trajectory. the 108 cannon is accurate up to .50 500m, hispano has exploding ability at .40 but the browing .50 cal only has it at .20 As your familiar with guntables and ballistics you know this is so wrong.

Even with selfsealing tanks wwii aircraft fuel tanks and the octane of fuel is incrediably flamable. Especially from API armor piercing incideary. In the koreanwar the browning had the advantage in accuracy at range but took alot more shots to down a mig then a wwii fighter.

Becuase of the upgrade of jet fuel which were had much higher tempertures to ignite.

The 190 have advantages in all categories except low speed elevator authority. To be honest I think they all fit in the airquake category and being very rough with 100% rudder same with the spits 109s yaks which perform manuevers which would bleed off all airspeed in rl. Oleg has got to make these ac bleed more speed and give them less effective rudders to stop the flipping manuevers and hardly any E bleed of all these ac which would bring so much realism to the game.

reducing the rudder effect like oleg has 3.04 in the zeke ki84 ki43 wildcat p51 that will cause a flopping stall and is much harder to recover This would fix alot of the ai behavior as well.

This really has got to be done to the spit 190 109 yak lag mig la and many others. I hope oleg seriously considers this and has worked well for the zekes ki43 ki84 etc

FatBoyHK
02-03-2005, 01:47 AM
As I said, some expert will come by and show me the way. Thanks Mantis http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatBoyHK
02-03-2005, 01:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Mantis is a n00b on the Mustang, just check the WC stats page and you'll see http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I know, he is the number 1 noob in the universal, and the one that has opened my eyes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatBoyHK
02-03-2005, 01:52 AM
Mantis, one more question, what would you do if you are at the disadvantage? Let say if a 109 is at your six, coAlt coE but not in gun range yet?

AFJMantis
02-03-2005, 02:46 AM
I wont discuss such things on this forum,too many eager 109 drivers eyes watching http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif stop by our website leave a message at our forum and i'll gladly give you some tips if i can.
www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net)

FatBoyHK
02-03-2005, 04:02 AM
good, see you in the AFJ forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif