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P459
08-07-2009, 04:12 PM
Something just crossed my mind. AC2 is going on in Italy, where the pope and all that is located, and Ezio starts as a nobleman, so do you think he will be christian?

Please do not make this into some religious discussion like in that "Anti-christian" thread.

sm312
08-07-2009, 04:34 PM
Good point I do think so but it doesn't make much of a difference to me or us.

EmperorxZurg
08-07-2009, 07:49 PM
the dev diary said he was a catholic, so ya I think so, now let's try and close this thread quickly before everyone starts raving

Iskander_Estel
08-07-2009, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
the dev diary said he was a catholic, so ya I think so, now let's try and close this thread quickly before everyone starts raving

i never heard that...

EmperorxZurg
08-07-2009, 08:22 PM
it was in one of the early interviews not the dev diary, sorry got confused, but Patrice did say it

Iskander_Estel
08-07-2009, 09:43 PM
well anyway, looks like he's going to lose faith in the way to the end of the game...
i think he is going to become more like Altair.
a spiritual but not religious man.

chazzbo77
08-07-2009, 10:23 PM
Yes, the Pope is the head of the Catholic church, not the Christian church. Granted, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity.

UchihaKarasu
08-07-2009, 10:53 PM
Technically, religion was a basic thing taught to Nobles (and peasants) growing up. Everyone was Catholic, they attended mass, studied the bible, knew all the stories. Even Da Vinci (who did not believe himself to be a religious man) would be considered Catholic by today's standards. Knowing the religion of your country was a part of growing up.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this the right way, it probably doesn't sound the way I mean it XD

P459
08-08-2009, 06:15 AM
Thank you for all the replys.

nightpriestess
08-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by UchihaKarasu:
Technically, religion was a basic thing taught to Nobles (and peasants) growing up. Everyone was Catholic, they attended mass, studied the bible, knew all the stories. Even Da Vinci (who did not believe himself to be a religious man) would be considered Catholic by today's standards. Knowing the religion of your country was a part of growing up.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this the right way, it probably doesn't sound the way I mean it XD

You explained it fine, I'd be surprised if Ezio wasn't Catholic TBH.

Edengoth
08-08-2009, 10:30 PM
I got the impression that the Assassins considered religion as an illusion. Like how Altair would call the Christian and Muslim gods "phantoms" and always say "in the arms of *your* God" and such. And how he and Al-Mualim talk about how the Assassins view the whole world as an illusion, which they intend to transcend, not subscribe to.

So maybe Ezio is a Catholic at the start of the game, but unless the Assassin's outlook on life changed in that regard, or if Ezio isn't really one for the Creed, then he probably won't remain so.

nightpriestess
08-08-2009, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Edengoth:
I got the impression that the Assassins considered religion as an illusion. Like how Altair would call the Christian and Muslim gods "phantoms" and always say "in the arms of *your* God" and such. And how he and Al-Mualim talk about how the Assassins view the whole world as an illusion, which they intend to transcend, not subscribe to.

So maybe Ezio is a Catholic at the start of the game, but unless the Assassin's outlook on life changed in that regard, or if Ezio isn't really one for the Creed, then he probably won't remain so.

From the little information we have on the game, it seems that Ezio and his immediate family are not assassins and Ezio joins the Assassin's after the death of his family. How or when his family stopped being assassins, I have no clue. So assuming this, I'd think Ezio is a Catholic and, like you said, later on his religious beliefs will change.

Korejo
08-08-2009, 11:02 PM
It really doesnt matter what his religion is... Assassin's creed forum is converting into Assassin's religion forum, since last few days.. :S

EmperorxZurg
08-08-2009, 11:02 PM
actually in the GAME assassins don't believe religion, I remember reading the Hashashins first started because they followed the GOD hash, not the drug bu t I'm not 100 percent sure, but we really should stop this, it's not the religion aspect of it we came to assassins creed for, It was for some major *** woopin!

nightpriestess
08-08-2009, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Korejo:
It really doesnt matter what his religion is... Assassin's creed forum is converting into Assassin's religion forum, since last few days.. :S

I personally couldn't care less about any character's belief (ok maybe a bit) but what's wrong with discussing different aspects of a character?

Edengoth
08-08-2009, 11:10 PM
It's just a phase anyway. After I started that thread about Leonardo's gay rumor, and for a few days the forums were heavy with an undercurrent of that topic after the thread got locked. Lots of little jokes here and there and stuff like that.
The religion topic will pass just as quickly.

nightpriestess
08-08-2009, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Edengoth:
It's just a phase anyway. After I started that thread about Leonardo's gay rumor, and for a few days the forums were heavy with an undercurrent of that topic after the thread got locked. Lots of little jokes here and there and stuff like that.
The religion topic will pass just as quickly.


LOLwat? I completely missed this! XD

EmperorxZurg
08-08-2009, 11:15 PM
he started a forum topic because they were rumors that Leonardo Da Vinci was gay when he was alive and wondered if there might be hints at him flirting with Ezio throughout the game, let's just hope this religious viewing is over soon like Edengoth said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

nightpriestess
08-08-2009, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
he started a forum topic because they were rumors that Leonardo Da Vinci was gay when he was alive and wondered if there might be hints at him flirting with Ezio throughout the game, let's just hope this religious viewing is over soon like Edengoth said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Ahhh, I see

Korejo
08-09-2009, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by nightpriestess:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Korejo:
It really doesnt matter what his religion is... Assassin's creed forum is converting into Assassin's religion forum, since last few days.. :S

I personally couldn't care less about any character's belief (ok maybe a bit) but what's wrong with discussing different aspects of a character? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because i thought

actually in the GAME assassins don't believe religion, I remember reading the Hashashins first started because they followed the GOD hash, not the drug bu t I'm not 100 percent sure, but we really should stop this, it's not the religion aspect of it we came to assassins creed for, It was for some major *** woopin!

There's nothing wrong.. i thought Ezio's religion wasnt an important aspect of the game.. but if u guyz wanna discuss.. then go ahead.

Xm3buX
08-09-2009, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by nightpriestess:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Edengoth:
I got the impression that the Assassins considered religion as an illusion. Like how Altair would call the Christian and Muslim gods "phantoms" and always say "in the arms of *your* God" and such. And how he and Al-Mualim talk about how the Assassins view the whole world as an illusion, which they intend to transcend, not subscribe to.

So maybe Ezio is a Catholic at the start of the game, but unless the Assassin's outlook on life changed in that regard, or if Ezio isn't really one for the Creed, then he probably won't remain so.

From the little information we have on the game, it seems that Ezio and his immediate family are not assassins and Ezio joins the Assassin's after the death of his family. How or when his family stopped being assassins, I have no clue. So assuming this, I'd think Ezio is a Catholic and, like you said, later on his religious beliefs will change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The 3 short films they're releasing are about Ezios father, and from the picture so far, it shows that he was an Assassin.

And the Al-Hashashin, or Nizaris as they called themselves, were Shi'ite muslims.

But no doubt since the Assassins spread, they adapted their religions.

SharkMRX
08-09-2009, 04:58 AM
Ezio has to be a catholic, or else he would be seen as an heretic and be burnt on a haystack. everyone in europe was a christian in this time period. you grew up with it and died with it.

nightpriestess
08-09-2009, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Xm3buX:
The 3 short films they're releasing are about Ezios father, and from the picture so far, it shows that he was an Assassin.

And the Al-Hashashin, or Nizaris as they called themselves, were Shi'ite muslims.

But no doubt since the Assassins spread, they adapted their religions.

Well there goes my theory. *Shrugs* well I guess it'd be pretty important to know quite a bit about the dominant religion in Italy. Knowing next to nothing about probably would've caused a lot of trouble.

Haha I didn't even know that they were having a film series until I was in the panel at Comic Con and they actually showed footage. I was like "WTF? When did this happen!?"

moqqy
08-09-2009, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by SharkMRX:
Ezio has to be a catholic, or else he would be seen as an heretic and be burnt on a haystack. everyone in europe was a christian in this time period. you grew up with it and died with it.

Or you could just say you're Catholic. You know, lie.

thekyle0
08-10-2009, 07:55 PM
Nearly everyone was required to be a catholic at this time. Or at least to be a catholic socially. Many nobles simply learned the religion as a way to gain more influence. The people would be more inclined to trust leadership to them if they were heavily associated with the church. the church was one of the most accessible ways to get an education in that time as well. the nobles also used mass as a social gathering.

But anyways, my guess is that Ezio would be catholic but wouldn't consider himself "religious". It's another question whether or not Ubi will consider this to be important to the game.

CFord664
08-10-2009, 10:20 PM
Hashshashin is a reference to the Arabic for followers of Hassan. The drug rumor was started by Marco Polo. The historical Assassins are Ishmaili Nizari Muslim, but the game takes a more mixed approach, judging by the accents of the many informers. They are a secular order who leave matters of faith to characters in the game. Al Mualim teaches the breakdown only because he's trying to control the order.

Honestly, it's called Leap of Faith for a reason. If anything, the Assassins are the defenders of religion, taking out the Templars who would destroy it in its source. Albeit, their motive is protection of the people, but isn't there an old phrase, "The Almighty works in mysterious ways?"

Xanatos2007
08-10-2009, 10:34 PM
I don't get why everybody thinks the Assassins (in the game) were anti-religion, Jubair became a target because he was trying to destroy the city's religious written works (that's what Altair and the Rafik concluded anyway and thought it was a horrible act). Just because they don't seem to follow any god doesn't mean they'll try and force their beliefs upon others. Which sounds more than fair to me.

CFord664
08-10-2009, 11:05 PM
I agree with you, Xanatos, both in game and personally. Religion is a mostly personal thing, and while as a Christian I am called to spread the Word, there is a time and place where such can be effective and plenty where it can't. Assassins were masters of controlling their environment and maintaining status quo to promote peace. Evangelism wouldn't be their strong point no matter what religion they follow, and by remaining quiet on their personal beliefs, they close off an angle of attack from enemies.

nightpriestess
08-10-2009, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Xanatos2007:
I don't get why everybody thinks the Assassins (in the game) were anti-religion, Jubair became a target because he was trying to destroy the city's religious written works (that's what Altair and the Rafik concluded anyway and thought it was a horrible act). Just because they don't seem to follow any god doesn't mean they'll try and force their beliefs upon others. Which sounds more than fair to me.

I never really thought they were anti-religious, just that they themselves either we not deeply religious or did not believe in a higher being.



Nearly everyone was required to be a catholic at this time. Or at least to be a catholic socially. Many nobles simply learned the religion as a way to gain more influence. The people would be more inclined to trust leadership to them if they were heavily associated with the church. the church was one of the most accessible ways to get an education in that time as well. the nobles also used mass as a social gathering.

But anyways, my guess is that Ezio would be catholic but wouldn't consider himself "religious". It's another question whether or not Ubi will consider this to be important to the game.



I agree with you, if his family were noble, especially ones with power, I doubt they would be anything other than Catholic. I can't think of any person(s) that had a lot of power and lived within Christian lands and weren't Catholic/Christians. And even if they weren't Catholic, they'd probably pretend to be for power and influence.

Azugo
08-13-2009, 12:30 AM
Okay but, to pretend, you need to have the knowledge. (Catholic history, etc) Now, did they have that knowledge?

Anyway... Personally, I don't think Ezio would be of any religion because people of most religions don't need or want vengeance, no matter what the situation is. Ezio wants vengeance on whoever it is because they killed some of his family. Did they not?

thekyle0
08-13-2009, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Azugo:
Okay but, to pretend, you need to have the knowledge. (Catholic history, etc) Now, did they have that knowledge?
Like I said, the church was a way to persue an education. Not incidentally, while teaching people to read and write the church would teach them about the religion. If Ezio went through the typical education for a noble of his day then he would have learned quite a bit about catholicism. Assuming classes weren't co-ed.

CFord664
08-13-2009, 10:54 AM
Hooooh, boy. Just about EVERY religion has people seeking vengeance. The Hindus and the Sikhs and the Muslims in India are going at it in a three-way free-for-all. Christians and Muslims have sought vengeance on each other for centuries (in case the first game didn't make that clear XD). Within Christianity alone, different factions have wanted revenge on each other. Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Voodoo, Shinto, polytheistic, agnostic, etc. individuals are constantly wanting vengeance for some wrong or other. Just remember the War of Roses in England or the Irish War for Independence. In both cases, strongly religious people wanted vengeance. In the latter for example the mostly Catholic Irish wanted vengeance for 700 years of oppression under English rule. (Sorry to drag this out in front of any Englishmen present, but I am strongly connected to my Irish heritage.)

Thus, Ezio could easily be part of a religion and want vengeance. Religion rarely conquers all of human nature, and vengeance is a part of us, albeit a usually ugly one.

moqqy
08-13-2009, 11:29 AM
Agnosticism isn't a religion, so it's impossible for agnostics to want revenge over some religion.

thekyle0
08-13-2009, 11:36 AM
Ezio doesn't even want revenge because of a religious atrocity. He wants revenge because somebody killed his father and brother. It has nothing to do with religion.

Danvish
08-13-2009, 11:59 AM
There's no knowing how the death of his family would effect him. It is most possibly that he was catholic when the game starts, but once he finds Altair's Codex and the death of his family makes him an athiest.
I don't think you can even compare between Altair's belives and Ezio's believes, they both lived in different eras and had different masters.

Saying that, I'm really dissapointed. I leave for a week and a half and already the Leonardo-Gay jokes are dead? And instead, you start religious discussions?!

thekyle0
08-13-2009, 12:21 PM
You're right. Why don't you do us the honor and get us back on track?

Edengoth
08-13-2009, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Danvish:
Saying that, I'm really dissapointed. I leave for a week and a half and already the Leonardo-Gay jokes are dead? And instead, you start religious discussions?!

My Frankenstein monster is dead! *weeps ambiguous happy/sad tears over the corpse of posts gone by*
I think the religious theme is dying too. But anyway, I don't picture him to be the most devout fella since he's a womanizer...and maybe a Da Vinci-izer :P

Danvish
08-13-2009, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Edengoth:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Danvish:
Saying that, I'm really dissapointed. I leave for a week and a half and already the Leonardo-Gay jokes are dead? And instead, you start religious discussions?!

My Frankenstein monster is dead! *weeps ambiguous happy/sad tears over the corpse of posts gone by*
I think the religious theme is dying too. But anyway, I don't picture him to be the most devout fella since he's a womanizer...and maybe a Da Vinci-izer :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Ezio is actually a religious converter!
You know how many women yelled 'OH MY GOD' after a night with Ezio?

CFord664
08-13-2009, 02:01 PM
The way I see it, the Templars are the atheistic-philosopher end of the reasoning spectrum. They see what needs to be done (creating peace) and will do it by the most logical method: putting themselves in control to do what they see as being necessary, such as Garnier's horrid experiments. I particularly enjoyed that assassination, by the way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

The Assassins, in contrast, are the religion-and-faith-based end of the spectrum. They have faith that the world is ordered as it should be for the most part, and they just need to keep people from being at each other's throats. Religion fills a function for encouraging compassion and peace. The Assassins will thus defend religion against the Templars on the belief that it is better than the empty philosophy of the Templars. Maybe they themselves don't believe, so they could be doubters themselves. Ironically, they exemplify the phrase "There is more truth in honest doubt than in half the creeds." They seek the truth by questioning rather than following wrote ritual like the Templars and casting everything out. Each Assassin asks questions of himself and walks his own road. Religion is a possible solution for them, and they do not cast it out entirely, but they never assume anything is absolutely true.

We have hints at this in the Leaps of Faith and the Eagle Vision, which is pretty close to a divine gift of insight. Similarly, the atheistic philosophy cause is focused heavily in Europe, starting in the Middle Ages and peaking in the Renaissance.

Anyone else see the pattern?

(Oh, and with Ezio, he's probably a flirt, but being promiscuous in the Catholic heartland of Italy and being married even in the Renaissance would be extraordinarily endangering, even for a noble.)

Altaezio
08-13-2009, 03:12 PM
Christianity Whoo!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

UchihaKarasu
08-13-2009, 06:43 PM
This is Templars in a nutshell:
-We will make you believe what you need to believe for you own good! Even if it means the loss of freewill.

This is the Assassin side:
-I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
&
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."
(both said by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, I believe)

Templars believe in peace no matter what the cost
Assassins believe in free will, the ability to live life how one chooses.

If you look at if from a religious aspect, yes the Assassins would represent faith but it doesn't mean they are necessarily followers of God.
...if that makes sense. lol

Edengoth
08-13-2009, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by UchihaKarasu:
If you look at if from a religious aspect, yes the Assassins would represent faith but it doesn't mean they are necessarily followers of God.
...if that makes sense. lol

They have faith in humanity. (Misplaced, if you ask me, but that's just my opinion.)

UchihaKarasu
08-13-2009, 07:25 PM
Misplaced indeed, but it's better than trying to brainwash the world, lol

CFord664
08-13-2009, 07:50 PM
Better than brainwashing indeed. And I wouldn't say it's misplaced; the Assassins are good enough to correct any errors in human judgement lol.

And, as a whole, yes, I would agree the Assassins are mostly secular.

Azugo
08-13-2009, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by CFord664:
Hooooh, boy. Just about EVERY religion has people seeking vengeance. The Hindus and the Sikhs and the Muslims in India are going at it in a three-way free-for-all. Christians and Muslims have sought vengeance on each other for centuries (in case the first game didn't make that clear XD). Within Christianity alone, different factions have wanted revenge on each other. Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Voodoo, Shinto, polytheistic, agnostic, etc. individuals are constantly wanting vengeance for some wrong or other. Just remember the War of Roses in England or the Irish War for Independence. In both cases, strongly religious people wanted vengeance. In the latter for example the mostly Catholic Irish wanted vengeance for 700 years of oppression under English rule. (Sorry to drag this out in front of any Englishmen present, but I am strongly connected to my Irish heritage.)

Thus, Ezio could easily be part of a religion and want vengeance. Religion rarely conquers all of human nature, and vengeance is a part of us, albeit a usually ugly one.

...Oh dear. Looks like I should've done my research! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

CFord664
08-13-2009, 08:10 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to drown you there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Edengoth
08-13-2009, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by CFord664:
And, as a whole, yes, I would agree the Assassins are mostly secular.

I think it's wierd when people say the Assassins (of the AC universe) are spiritual. They seem all about rejecting and transcending illusions and always refer to the gods as phantoms.

CFord664
08-13-2009, 09:13 PM
It's their modus operandi that makes them appear spiritual, as does their reputation. They also oppose the science-minded Templars, putting them in the same area as religion.

Do you have a quote about the phantoms? I see the rejecting illusions, but only al Mualim under the influence of the Piece of Eden agreed with the Templar idea of false religion. Just because Altair said "your God" doesn't mean that he rejects religion; it just means he opposes the religion of his enemies, who were supposed to be more spiritual than they were in the AC universe.

Edengoth
08-13-2009, 09:19 PM
Al-Mualim: "is it any less real than those that the saracens and crusaders follow. Those craven gods that retreat from this world that men might slaughter one another in their names?"
Altair: "least they choose these phantoms"

Altair also says "your god" to a Muslim (Talal) and to a Christian (Sibrand), so presumably he doesn't believe in either one, and he really doesn't have a lot of other religious beliefs to choose from.

But I suppose there is a great deal of ritual and ceremony in all the little practices. Like the blood feather thing. There is a spiritual overtone.

Azugo
08-13-2009, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by CFord664:
Sorry, didn't mean to drown you there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Lol nah. It's cool! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Warrior-Within2
08-13-2009, 11:04 PM
He probably is, or at least will start out as such.

CFord664
08-14-2009, 09:25 PM
It could be that Altair, like modern-day Christians and some Muslims, treat their view of God as a separate entity from those that inspire bloodshed. Perhaps Altair holds that men kill men, and God does not lead them to do so. Hence calling the God Al-Mualim is referring to a "phantom." Don't forget too that the older name for the Holy Spirit was the Holy Ghost. Maybe he's sliding us a hint that he's Christian; he certainly lacks a discernible accent to our ears that all the in-game Muslims including Malik have, and Ezio his descendant starts presumably Catholic. Just some food for thought. He definitely has agnostic tendencies to say the least.

Maybe this is me hoping my hero isn't atheist when I am a strong Christian and agree with his ideals.

Edengoth
08-15-2009, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by CFord664:
Maybe this is me hoping my hero isn't atheist when I am a strong Christian and agree with his ideals.

Haha, I know what you mean. I think my being an atheist is coloring my perception of the game's message and the characters' attitudes.

loveboof
08-15-2009, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by CFord664:
Hooooh, boy. Just about EVERY religion has people seeking vengeance.

blah blah blah

Just remember the War of Roses in England or the Irish War for Independence. In both cases, strongly religious people wanted vengeance. In the latter for example the mostly Catholic Irish wanted vengeance for 700 years of oppression under English rule. (Sorry to drag this out in front of any Englishmen present, but I am strongly connected to my Irish heritage.)


Nothing like a good car-bombing to put down some of those completely innocent bystanders eh?

Also, the war of the roses was not really about religion - it was a power play for the throne.
______

Other than that I sort of agree with your point, no one can hold a grudge like a religious person. lol

You don't see too many vengeful Buddhists tho. hmmm

CFord664
08-15-2009, 08:13 PM
I thought the War of Roses was also a fight between Catholics and Protestants on a theological level? It was a lot like the Irish War for Independence, I give you that unconditionally; the lines were more caused by faction alliance than any true ideological differences.

loveboof
08-15-2009, 10:17 PM
Nah. Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that protestantism hadn't even been established at the time of the war of the roses.. maybe you're thinking of the later english civil war (or revolution) with oliver cromwell etc?

Also, Cromwell had a few 'issues' with the Irish - so you can feel happy about disliking him if you want http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CFord664
08-17-2009, 10:28 AM
Let me put it this way: Cromwell is not a person you would want to put me in the same room with. I would probably make Altair look calm and collected during a counter-kill.

And I probably am think of another war. Sorry; English history is not my strong suit.