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View Full Version : The big BoB processor questions? Is the engine 32bit, 64bit or just 16bit DOS



XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:31 PM
If Oleg goes 64, and we know Oleg thinks BIG and far into the future, very far, everybody will upgrade before even playing a demo. No exceptions!!

Or will he do both? Staying 32bit just does not seem Oleg~esque, as he makes his sims "futuristic" if you know what I mean.

With 64bits, the whole West Euro map can fit in memory, if you can afford it, and our Finland map of today becomes the onwhine dogfight map for BoB. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:31 PM
If Oleg goes 64, and we know Oleg thinks BIG and far into the future, very far, everybody will upgrade before even playing a demo. No exceptions!!

Or will he do both? Staying 32bit just does not seem Oleg~esque, as he makes his sims "futuristic" if you know what I mean.

With 64bits, the whole West Euro map can fit in memory, if you can afford it, and our Finland map of today becomes the onwhine dogfight map for BoB. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:37 PM
well if he does not support 32 with it he will lose a big wedge of the market.......

RichardI
10-06-2003, 08:41 PM
By 2005, 64 will be quite common. 32 will be the "poo' folks'"
The added power of the 64 bit processor will allow some of the features that have already been mentioned, while maintaining good FPS.
IMO, it will be strictly 64 bit and likely look and play very realistically.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:45 PM
but the question is will a 64 bit CPU and XP support 32 bit programs.? I read in a computer mag a long while back tha M$$ soft will not legacy 32bit. Hope I am wrong.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:51 PM
I believe the quote said something about near photo quality. Look at how far ahead of the pack IL2 was as far as FMs, DMs, graphics, immersion, programmability and play. It will more than likely be a 64 bit..or maybe something with dual settings that scale to the point where they will only run on 64 bit systems. We do know that O & 1C make good stuff and we can be sure we wont be dissapointed. People may have been dissapointed with FB because thier favorite plane didnt fly like they felt it should but overall you must admit....FB is top notch pound for pound and head and shoulders above any other sim. In fact I dont think I would be too far out of line to say FB is the only REAL over the counter non pay to play sim on the market outide of the original IL2.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 03:14 PM
Sniper762x51 wrote:
- but the question is will a 64 bit CPU and XP support
- 32 bit programs.? I read in a computer mag a long
- while back tha M$$ soft will not legacy 32bit. Hope
- I am wrong.

There is almost no historical reason to suggest that Microsoft would not support legacy software running on a new operating system design. That is, I expect them to create an operating systems software architecture which will allow 32-bit legacy applications backward compatibility on a new 64-bit operating system based on what Microsoft has done in the past. Heck, Windows <s>NT</s> 4.0 was even so well planned that Microsoft included a virtual IBM OS/2 machine ("subsystem") so that the WinNT owner could run both Microsoft applications and IBM's on the same operating system platform. Likewise, 16-bit legacy apps were so accomodated by the Windows Application Programmers Interface (API).

<blockquote>The Windows API needed to provide a complete and sophisticated application development environment, one not limited by old software technology or reliant on any particular hardware architecture...

Despite these ambitions goals, Mircrosoft's number-one priority in the evolution of the Windows API was the following: Make the new API compatible with the 16-bit Windows API in function names, semantics, and use of data types whenever possible. All Win32 API routines must provide an upwardly mobile path for the migration of existing 16-bit Windows applications to Windows NT. (Inside Windows NT, Helen Custer, Microsoft Press, 1993, p. 138) </blockquote>
IBM OS/2 never developed into a significant threat to what became a Windows <s>NT</s> hegemony of the PC operating systems market, but the architecture proved sound enough for 16-bit apps migration (not perfect, but probably good enough for most users). Microsoft also included a POSIX "subsystem" at that time, but I have no idea if this concept was carried forward to the Win2000 or XP line. It will be interesting to see what support the nextgen MS O/S will provide; maybe, a 32/64-bit Linux virtual machine to help M$ Windows capture the entire PC market, again?

Legacy support does have its limits, and I would expect 16-bit support to go away next time--of course, that's just additional speculation on my part, and maybe MS will carry that support forward from the WinXP architecture.

I suspect that computer mag/rag you saw was just trying to find some headline it could put on the cover to sell more copies. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 10/07/03 02:18PM by rbstr44

Message Edited on 10/07/0308:18PM by rbstr44

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 03:25 PM
You'd think mass production will help make 64 bit price relatively low by time BoB comes out.

But the thought of near perfect graphics, hundreds of planes loft at once and all that stuff sounds just great. They should be able to get a lot nearer to real flight performance...

I'll start saving for a new machine.

Looking forward. A lot.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 03:27 PM
and if they take that model so that you can have say hundreds of B17s or even Lancs and nightfighthers.

mind boggles at possibilities.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 03:38 PM
Are the fantastic graphics we see in films in any way relevant to us or are their systems and methods of producing said graphics in a totally different ball park?

I ask only because some films' graphics are so awesome it's difficult to know what is and what isn't real. Is there any likelihood our domestic PC games will ever reach such heights?

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 03:44 PM
Oleg's new sim will probably support 64-bit code. Intel has decided to adopt AMD's x86-64 architecture for the upcomming Prescott processor since M$ has shown support for 64 bit computing by developing WinXP-64. WinXP-64 should be available sometime during the 1st quarter of the next year. There will probably be good performance increases to come if Oleg goes the 64-bit way because of the presence of twice the number of GPRs and floating point registers. Quite honestly, I think we can expect photorealitic terrain simply because the sim will not cover much area, probably Scotland to Northern France, meaning that the map will be highly detailed.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:00 PM
rbstr44 wrote:
- Microsoft also included a POSIX "subsystem" at that
- time, but I have no idea if this concept was carried
- forward to the Win2000 or XP line.

The POSIX subsystem was introduced in Windows NT so that some US government departments who required POSIX compliance could use Windows. It's still there - Windows XP supports Windows, POSIX and OS/2 Warp system calls.

MS has had a 64 bit version of Windows NT years ago, running on the DEC (Now HP, via Compaq) Alpha processor, which was extensively used in high end business systems. MS scrapped continued support for this platform in order to buy into the IA64.

A good example of a _current_ 32 -> 64 bit transition is the G4 -> G5 (IBM 970) chip Apple is making. Because both chips are similar (both are Power PC family), new G5s will run old G4 binaries no trouble. I expect AMD and intel will have an interest in providing such compatability, or desktop users will not want their chips. If this support is not provided expect a similar situation to the 680x0 -> PowerPC transition where:
- Old programs are run by the operating system using an emulation layer, and hence run slower.
- While both architectures are prevalant, "fat" binaries are provided containing versions for both architectures.
- Eventually, everyone's software catches up with their hardware.

The question as it relates to FB is moot however - modern games are not heavily dependant on processor architecture, very little modern software is. It will be available on whatever the most popular desktop system available is in 2005.

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:22 PM
Flight simmers tends to have latest hardware. It could be a huge mistake if BOB is 32bit.

I know I'll have a 64bit system well before BOB comes out.

I hope he plans on making it cutting edge all the way.

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 05:31 PM
I, for one, sincerly hope that it IS a 64bit game.

Intel REFUSED to make a desktop 64bit processor because they didn't think that we needed it.

This is a classic example of one BIG corporation telling its little consumer childern what they need and don't need and not giving them what they want.

A 64 bit CPU has tremendous promise for greater graphics and more realistic FM's. I apploud AMD for giving the desktop comunity the tools to move ahead in imersion.

I read a comment from INTEL that specificly stated that desktop users have no need for 64 bit processors and they weren't going to make a 64 bit processor because it wasn't needed.

Really ticked me off.

So I hope that Oleg's new sim is 64bit and I hope that AMD gets the lions share of the 64 bit market because they had the foresight to bring it to the desktop market first.

TinMan

btw-sorry for the spelling and somewhat non-continuity of the post....I was in a hurry...breaks over :S lol

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 05:50 PM
Intel already has a 64 bit chip called Itanium. Intel believes their is no need for a 64 bit chip at this time cause there is no operating system or applications for home use at this time.
Why build a chip that no one can use? This is a business decision.

AMD is taking the "If you build it, they will come." approach. Thats risk taking, and it may pan out well for them in the future. But you can bet that when 64 bit home PC computing takes off, Intel will be there.

By the way, Itanium is targeted for the server market, not home PC's

Intel is not the Evil Empire. Any company that does well seems to get that moniker. I own stock in AMD and Intel, so I'm rooting for both Companies. GO AMD, GO Intel.

The future of computing looks very bright. The computers you own now, will be the 486's of the future, accept it.

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 05:56 PM
um, no kidding about Itanium, that is why I said DESKTOP each time I mentioned it.

Seems that intel was making 32 bit processors before there was an OS for it, so tell me, what is the difference now?

TinMan

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 06:01 PM
To be honest I doubt it will 64Bit. I mean to utilize the advantages of 64Bit you don't just need the Hardware but also the OS! And we all know which OS "BoB" Will have to run on (M$). Pure 64Bit-Hardware might have a rather big share of the market in early 2005, but I severely doubt the 64Bit OS will- especially when all this TCPA nonsense is confusing and unsettling the customers. A high-class Shooter might generate enough revenue to justify these risky investments for the publkisher, but a flightsim - the genre with one of the smalles customer bases and therefore rather small revenues - will hardly be the "prototype" for new technologies.

So no 64Bit compatible game if there is no Hardware AND OS.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 06:07 PM
speaking of 64 bit....
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5087001.html


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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 06:09 PM
I would bet that it does not support 64 bit.

I hope that is does, however.

It has to at least support 32 bit though ... You can't make a game that will only run on computers that are less than 1 year old.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 06:21 PM
1-1/2 years from now...definitely 64 bit.

Hardware is being replaced constantly in approximately 2-1/2 month cycles. How many 2-1/2 month cycles in 1-1/2 years?

So...I'm thinking MSFT will address the 32bit thing, but 64bit should be the norm by then.

When I bought my Video card about 1-1/2 years ago it was boss top of the line for about 2 months...wahla GF3 ti200 128MB is now bottom of the line. Actually, below the bottom now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

--------------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 07:42 PM
Yes I see, just that I'm sure Intel wont sit still while AMD takes over the 64 bit future.

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 07:43 PM
64bit will help tons with lots of planes, textures etc i think
im pro amd, intel are a evil corporation /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
its the things they do...
im hoping for a 64bit sys for myself by 2005 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
dualy/quad be sweet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 09:08 PM
In my opinion, if Oleg makes his BofB 64 bit ONLY (no version for 32 bit), he will LOSE his business/company.

In 1Q2005 there will NOT be enough 64Bit systems out there for him to sell enough copies of his BoB to cover even a small part of his costs of development.

A handful of flight sim advocates with very expensive, brand new state-of-the-art, cutting edge, 6-7GHz speed, multimedia systems will NOT be a sufficent potential customer base for Oleg&Company to survive.

It will be a disaster if he commits to 64 bit too early. A failed attempt(commercial/sales failure) would be a major setback for flight simming across the board.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 09:24 PM
What I've read about the new Athlon 64 processors so far is that:

- They run both 32 bit and 64 bit software. AMD didn't have the "If you build it they will come" attitude, Intel did. Their 64 bit processors weren't originally compatible with 32 bit software. I'm not sure if this was in order to optimise Itanium server performance, or because they didn't think the desktop market was there. It sounds like they're going with AMD's playbook now.

- Athlon 64 (2.2GHz) are faster in 32 bit mode than a Pentium IV 3.2 GHz, but slower than the upcoming P IV 3.4 GHz version. No surprise, the two seem to be trading the lead back and forth as usual.

- The Win XP64 won't be out 'till sometime next year. In it's current state, it's not stable enough to get any meaningful benchmarks for the Athlon 64 in 64 bit mode.

Depending on when in 2005, I'd be willing to bet that there will at least be a 64 bit version of BoB. To get all that detail, number of aircraft, and numerous FM (and hopefully AI) improvements, they'll need some additional headroom. I can only see that coming from the move to 64 bit. Just my .02.


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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 09:34 PM
Well, if the BoB is Oleg's first step to world domination, Oleg better do the 64 thing. I'd hate to see 32bit BoB followed by 64bit Pacific and Med. Not Good.